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Default Switch-mode power supply cutting out

I have a Vent-Axia HR25 fan ( http://www.vent-axia.com/range/hr25.html
). It has a separate switch-mode power supply with both 6v and 24v
outputs (for the two fan speeds). Rather than use the pull-cord switch,
I've put together an electronic timer/relay module with inputs from a
couple of sensors to switch between the speeds as required.

The control module requires 12v. Since I don't want to have another
supply stepping down mains, I've arranged it to be powered from the
fan's supply, via a voltage regulator chip (item L7812CV on this page:
http://www.quasarelectronics.com/ele...age-Regulators
). This is fed from the 24v supply.

When I built and tested it, this seemed to work fine. However, now that
the fan is in place and I'm trying the system out for a bit longer
before finally mounting the electronics, I have found a problem. After
some period of time (between ten minutes and half an hour - I haven't
pinned it down exactly) the fan stops. At first I thought it was a
problem with my electronics, but it turns out to be the fan power supply
cutting out (no voltage across its outputs). After being turned off for
a while, it will work again, until it once more cuts out.

Does anyone have any advice on how to sort this? I am no electronicist;
all the non-standard stuff here was put together from kits and a basic
reading of component datasheets.

Pete
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Default Switch-mode power supply cutting out

On Oct 24, 5:07*pm, Pete Verdon
d wrote:

I have a Vent-Axia HR25 fan (http://www.vent-axia.com/range/hr25.html
). It has a separate switch-mode power supply with both 6v and 24v
outputs (for the two fan speeds). Rather than use the pull-cord switch,
I've put together an electronic timer/relay module with inputs from a
couple of sensors to switch between the speeds as required.

The control module requires 12v. Since I don't want to have another
supply stepping down mains, I've arranged it to be powered from the
fan's supply, via a voltage regulator chip (item L7812CV on this page:http://www.quasarelectronics.com/ele...htm#Voltage-Re...
). This is fed from the 24v supply.

When I built and tested it, this seemed to work fine. However, now that
the fan is in place and I'm trying the system out for a bit longer
before finally mounting the electronics, I have found a problem. After
some period of time (between ten minutes and half an hour - I haven't
pinned it down exactly) the fan stops. At first I thought it was a
problem with my electronics, but it turns out to be the fan power supply
cutting out (no voltage across its outputs). After being turned off for
a while, it will work again, until it once more cuts out.

Does anyone have any advice on how to sort this? I am no electronicist;
all the non-standard stuff here was put together from kits and a basic
reading of component datasheets.

Pete


assuming the current draw of your extras is minmal, then its time to
replace fan or psu. Hopefully your mods can be undone so nothing
shows. You could check average fan current draw.


NT
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Default Switch-mode power supply cutting out

On 24 Oct, 17:07, Pete Verdon
d wrote:
I have a Vent-Axia HR25 fan (http://www.vent-axia.com/range/hr25.html
). It has a separate switch-mode power supply with both 6v and 24v
outputs (for the two fan speeds). Rather than use the pull-cord switch,
I've put together an electronic timer/relay module with inputs from a
couple of sensors to switch between the speeds as required.

The control module requires 12v. Since I don't want to have another
supply stepping down mains, I've arranged it to be powered from the
fan's supply, via a voltage regulator chip (item L7812CV on this page:http://www.quasarelectronics.com/ele...htm#Voltage-Re...
). This is fed from the 24v supply.

When I built and tested it, this seemed to work fine. However, now that
the fan is in place and I'm trying the system out for a bit longer
before finally mounting the electronics, I have found a problem. After
some period of time (between ten minutes and half an hour - I haven't
pinned it down exactly) the fan stops. At first I thought it was a
problem with my electronics, but it turns out to be the fan power supply
cutting out (no voltage across its outputs). After being turned off for
a while, it will work again, until it once more cuts out.

Does anyone have any advice on how to sort this? I am no electronicist;
all the non-standard stuff here was put together from kits and a basic
reading of component datasheets.

Pete


L7812 is an amp in a bucket of water, they run hot , its a linear
regulator which means its having to dump 12V from your 24V as heat,
being a clever integrated regulator its probably entering thermal shut
off land. Add a bigger T0 220 heatsink, or bit of bent alloy or
insulating wahers to metal case.

Cheers
Adam

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Default Switch-mode power supply cutting out

Adam Aglionby wrote:

L7812 is an amp in a bucket of water, they run hot , its a linear
regulator which means its having to dump 12V from your 24V as heat,
being a clever integrated regulator its probably entering thermal shut
off land.


That's what I first assumed. But it's not the regulator that's shutting
down, it's the boxed PSU for the fan.

Is there something the regulator might do to the supply when thermal
shutdown happens, causing an upstream device to get upset?

Pete
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Default Switch-mode power supply cutting out

On Oct 24, 7:07*pm, Pete Verdon
d wrote:
Adam Aglionby wrote:
L7812 is an amp in a bucket of water, they run hot , its a linear
regulator which means its having to dump 12V from your 24V as heat,
being a clever integrated regulator its probably entering thermal shut
off land.


That's what I first assumed. But it's not the regulator that's shutting
down, it's the boxed PSU for the fan.

Is there something the regulator might do to the supply when thermal
shutdown happens, causing an upstream device to get upset?

Pete


No. Like most electronic faults, your only way is to find out for
yourself. Measure fan power consumption, chieck its in speck. Measure
motor resistance as the rotor is turned slowly, chekc there's no
short. Check your mod current drain. Then you'lll know which bit is
failing.


NT


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Default Switch-mode power supply cutting out

"Pete Verdon" d wrote in
message ...
Adam Aglionby wrote:

L7812 is an amp in a bucket of water, they run hot , its a linear
regulator which means its having to dump 12V from your 24V as heat,
being a clever integrated regulator its probably entering thermal shut
off land.


That's what I first assumed. But it's not the regulator that's shutting
down, it's the boxed PSU for the fan.

Is there something the regulator might do to the supply when thermal
shutdown happens, causing an upstream device to get upset?


Yes. My guess is that the 7812 is shutting down because it's too hot and
that's causing the relay to turn the fan off (which is what you'd expect)
and the SMPS has a minimum load so it shuts down too.

How about re-designing the control stuff to run off 5V. Power it from the
6V but don't use a regulator as there's probably not enough headroom but,
having worked out how much current your control stuff takes and assuming
it's not too great, consider a simple resistor and zener arrangement.
Or do the control at 24V.
More, many more, details needed really - like some idea what the control
circuit looks like.


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Default Switch-mode power supply cutting out



Pete Verdon wrote:
I have a Vent-Axia HR25 fan ( http://www.vent-axia.com/range/hr25.html
). It has a separate switch-mode power supply with both 6v and 24v
outputs (for the two fan speeds). Rather than use the pull-cord switch,
I've put together an electronic timer/relay module with inputs from a
couple of sensors to switch between the speeds as required.

The control module requires 12v. Since I don't want to have another
supply stepping down mains, I've arranged it to be powered from the
fan's supply, via a voltage regulator chip (item L7812CV on this page:
http://www.quasarelectronics.com/ele...age-Regulators
). This is fed from the 24v supply.

When I built and tested it, this seemed to work fine. However, now that
the fan is in place and I'm trying the system out for a bit longer
before finally mounting the electronics, I have found a problem. After
some period of time (between ten minutes and half an hour - I haven't
pinned it down exactly) the fan stops. At first I thought it was a
problem with my electronics, but it turns out to be the fan power supply
cutting out (no voltage across its outputs). After being turned off for
a while, it will work again, until it once more cuts out.

Does anyone have any advice on how to sort this? I am no electronicist;
all the non-standard stuff here was put together from kits and a basic
reading of component datasheets.

Pete


I'd be suspecting your timer/relay module is taking just a bit too
much power from the 24V rail and the SMPS is falling over after a
while because it's getting to hot.
The fan needs 1Amp at 24V at it's "Boost" setting. 'Boost' usually
implies only intermittent operation of the fan at this max power,
which means the SMPS can be built cheaper, down to maybe a tiny '6W'
continuous rating.
What I'm getting at, is your control gear may be taking a couple of
watts and the 7812 dropper is losing maybe a few watts. Add on a fan
2W load and you could be over the top for the SMPS static power
consumption.
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Default Switch-mode power supply cutting out

Calvin Sambrook wrote:

Yes. My guess is that the 7812 is shutting down because it's too hot
and that's causing the relay to turn the fan off (which is what you'd
expect) and the SMPS has a minimum load so it shuts down too.


The relay is wired with the fan on common, 6v on NC and 24v on NO. So
the fan switches between the two speeds, but is never off.

How about re-designing the control stuff to run off 5V.


Not an option unfortunately - it's a pre-built kit rather than my own
design. Building it from scratch is probably not *quite* beyond me if
done with a microcontroller, but it's a lot more work than I'm prepared
to do.

More, many more, details needed really - like some idea what the control
circuit looks like.


I think it's this one:
http://www.quasarelectronics.com/314...elay-timer.htm

Cheers,

Pete
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Default Switch-mode power supply cutting out

"Pete Verdon" d wrote in
message ...
Calvin Sambrook wrote:

Yes. My guess is that the 7812 is shutting down because it's too hot and
that's causing the relay to turn the fan off (which is what you'd expect)
and the SMPS has a minimum load so it shuts down too.


The relay is wired with the fan on common, 6v on NC and 24v on NO. So the
fan switches between the two speeds, but is never off.

How about re-designing the control stuff to run off 5V.


Not an option unfortunately - it's a pre-built kit rather than my own
design. Building it from scratch is probably not *quite* beyond me if done
with a microcontroller, but it's a lot more work than I'm prepared to do.

More, many more, details needed really - like some idea what the control
circuit looks like.


I think it's this one:
http://www.quasarelectronics.com/314...elay-timer.htm

Cheers,

Pete


Well that claims to take 55mA tops which, at 12V, is 0.6W. So your 7812,
which is also dropping 12V * 55mA, is dissipating 0.6W as heat. Your SMPS
is seeing an extra load of 1.2W

From your description of the way you've wired it I have to say it sounds
like you're overloading the SMPS, it must be really near the edge in normal
operation.
A quick test would be to power it from an external power supply and make
sure it all works OK.

It's probably not easy but if you could arrange your sensors so that the
timer was triggered when the low speed was required rather than the high
(and swap the 6V/24V at the relay obviously) then you'd only be adding 0.72W
when the fan was running at full power which is when it matters.







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Default Switch-mode power supply cutting out

Calvin Sambrook wrote:

From your description of the way you've wired it I have to say it
sounds like you're overloading the SMPS, it must be really near the edge
in normal operation.


Thanks. I guess I originally thought that a small box of electronics
would be trivial set against a great big fan motor - except that in
actual fact the fan isn't all that big.

I don't think I can reverse the logic as you suggested, so I guess I'm
going to need to power it separately. Any suggestions other than a small
wall-wart?

Pete
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Default Switch-mode power supply cutting out

Pete Verdon wrote:

Sod's law being what it is, the system hasn't cut out since I started
this thread. I'm inclined just to leave it and see if it happens enough
to be annoying. Or is cutting out like this likely to damage the supply?


Also, check the 7812 has a couple of nearby 0.1 microfarad caps on both
input and output legs of the device. They are known for oscillating
without, and drawing excessive current in this fault mode.

--
Adrian C
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Default Switch-mode power supply cutting out

Adrian C wrote:

Also, check the 7812 has a couple of nearby 0.1 microfarad caps on both
input and output legs of the device. They are known for oscillating
without, and drawing excessive current in this fault mode.


Yep, did that. Couldn't swear to the actual values as they were out of
my parts bin, but they would have been reasonably close to what was
recommended and I guess the value's not too critical.

I've fully subscribed to the fan-supply-overloaded hypothesis and am now
just looking for a suitable small supply for the electronics only. Most
packaged supplies I can find seem to be too big, and therefore
presumably inefficient at the required load.

Pete

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