Hello,

There's an 8' tube in the garage and when it is switched on it takes a
long time (tens of seconds) before the light comes on.

I thought that when tubes failed they blinked several times before
lighting. With this there is no flashing just darkness, darkness,
darkness, light.

The tube and starter have been here longer than we have, so that's at
least four years.

Do I need a new tube or starter or both?

Thanks.

On Oct 5, 10:33*am, Stephen wrote:
Hello,

There's an 8' tube in the garage and when it is switched on it takes a
long time (tens of seconds) before the light comes on.

I thought that when tubes failed they blinked several times before
lighting. With this there is no flashing just darkness, darkness,
darkness, light.

The tube and starter have been here longer than we have, so that's at
least four years.

Do I need a new tube or starter or both?

Thanks.

New starter.


NT

NT wrote:

There's an 8' tube in the garage and when it is switched on it takes a
long time (tens of seconds) before the light comes on.

Do I need a new tube or starter or both?

New starter.

As a matter of interest, if a tube starts flashing
is it always the fault of the tube, as opposed to the starter?


--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

In article ,
Stephen writes:
Hello,

There's an 8' tube in the garage and when it is switched on it takes a
long time (tens of seconds) before the light comes on.

I thought that when tubes failed they blinked several times before
lighting. With this there is no flashing just darkness, darkness,
darkness, light.

The tube and starter have been here longer than we have, so that's at
least four years.

Do I need a new tube or starter or both?

8' tubes can be hard to start in the cold, but I don't think it's
got that cold yet. Given the tube does start eventually, and assuming
it doesn't have darkened (worn) tube ends, my money would be on the
starter having drifted out of spec, but it could still be either.
(The working spec for 8' starters is might tighter than for other tubes.)
It may well be that the electronic (fluoractor-based) starters such
as a Pulsestarter EFS 600 will work better with long tubes; I haven't
tried one on an 8' tube, but it claims it should work.

Secondly, are you sure it has a starter? A control gear type called
semi-resonant start was sometimes used with 5' - 8' tubes, and that
takes longer to start, but works more reliably in the cold. There
is no starter with semi-resonant start control gear.

Finally, check the fitting metalwork is earthed. That can make a big
difference to ease of starting with the long tubes.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article ,
Timothy Murphy writes:
NT wrote:

There's an 8' tube in the garage and when it is switched on it takes a
long time (tens of seconds) before the light comes on.

Do I need a new tube or starter or both?

New starter.

As a matter of interest, if a tube starts flashing
is it always the fault of the tube, as opposed to the starter?

Tube flashing continually means the starter is working.
This would normally indicate the tube has failed (particularly
if one end of the tube has dark internal shadow and/or one end
glows white and the other end orange). However, fitting the
wrong starter for the tube can also cause the starter to keep
trying to start a tube which is already started, so wrong value
starter is another possibility.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Mon, 5 Oct 2009 11:03:59 +0000 (UTC),
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:


8' tubes can be hard to start in the cold, but I don't think it's
got that cold yet. Given the tube does start eventually, and assuming
it doesn't have darkened (worn) tube ends, my money would be on the
starter having drifted out of spec, but it could still be either.
(The working spec for 8' starters is might tighter than for other tubes.)
It may well be that the electronic (fluoractor-based) starters such
as a Pulsestarter EFS 600 will work better with long tubes; I haven't
tried one on an 8' tube, but it claims it should work.

Secondly, are you sure it has a starter?

Thanks for the fast replies.

I have swapped the starters in the other (smaller) tubes around the
house to electronic ones but never got around to touching the one in
the garage.

It does have a starter, I can see it behind the tube. It has always
had a delayed start, even in the summer, so I am sure it's not the
cold.

I'll buy a new starter and see what happens; at least that will be
cheaper than a new tube.

Thanks again.

In article ,
Stephen writes:
On Mon, 5 Oct 2009 11:03:59 +0000 (UTC),
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:


8' tubes can be hard to start in the cold, but I don't think it's
got that cold yet. Given the tube does start eventually, and assuming
it doesn't have darkened (worn) tube ends, my money would be on the
starter having drifted out of spec, but it could still be either.
(The working spec for 8' starters is might tighter than for other tubes.)
It may well be that the electronic (fluoractor-based) starters such
as a Pulsestarter EFS 600 will work better with long tubes; I haven't
tried one on an 8' tube, but it claims it should work.

Secondly, are you sure it has a starter?

Thanks for the fast replies.

I have swapped the starters in the other (smaller) tubes around the
house to electronic ones but never got around to touching the one in
the garage.

Check to see if they are rated for a 125W tube, and if so,
borrow one to check if it solves the problem in the garage.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Oct 5, 12:00*pm, Timothy Murphy wrote:
NT wrote:
There's an 8' tube in the garage and when it is switched on it takes a
long time (tens of seconds) before the light comes on.
Do I need a new tube or starter or both?
New starter.

As a matter of interest, if a tube starts flashing
is it always the fault of the tube, as opposed to the starter?

it can be either. Sometimes its both, especially where a fitting has
been left flashing for some time.


NT

On Mon, 05 Oct 2009 10:33:25 +0100, Stephen wrote:

Hello,

There's an 8' tube in the garage and when it is switched on it takes a
long time (tens of seconds) before the light comes on.

I thought that when tubes failed they blinked several times before
lighting. With this there is no flashing just darkness, darkness,
darkness, light.

The tube and starter have been here longer than we have, so that's at
least four years.

Do I need a new tube or starter or both?

Thanks.

Managed to revive a tube by twisting it in its contacts a few times and did
the same with the starter. That was in a kitchen, so moisture and other
nasties had probably deposited clag everywhere.
In a garage, just some corrosion is more likely.
--
Peter.
The head of a pin will hold more angels if
it's been flattened with an angel-grinder.

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Stephen writes:

Hello,

There's an 8' tube in the garage and when it is switched on it takes a
long time (tens of seconds) before the light comes on.

I thought that when tubes failed they blinked several times before
lighting. With this there is no flashing just darkness, darkness,
darkness, light.

The tube and starter have been here longer than we have, so that's at
least four years.

Do I need a new tube or starter or both?


8' tubes can be hard to start in the cold, but I don't think it's
got that cold yet. Given the tube does start eventually, and assuming
it doesn't have darkened (worn) tube ends, my money would be on the
starter having drifted out of spec, but it could still be either.
(The working spec for 8' starters is might tighter than for other tubes.)
It may well be that the electronic (fluoractor-based) starters such
as a Pulsestarter EFS 600 will work better with long tubes; I haven't
tried one on an 8' tube, but it claims it should work.

Secondly, are you sure it has a starter? A control gear type called
semi-resonant start was sometimes used with 5' - 8' tubes, and that
takes longer to start, but works more reliably in the cold. There
is no starter with semi-resonant start control gear.

Finally, check the fitting metalwork is earthed. That can make a big
difference to ease of starting with the long tubes.


I'd definately recomend an electronic starter. In an earlier life I was
in charge of a suite of controlled environment cabinets and rooms, in
which we had approx 500 8ft tubes. We used to have to replace on average
about 20 starters a day until the advent of the electronic starter I
think it was the pulsestarter EFS 800 or was it 600 I can't remember it
was approx 30Yrs ago. The results were dramatic, our replacement rate
reduced to less than one per Month.
Some of the cabinets were working at 10 degC and they still worked
albeit with a reduced light output

Don

On Oct 6, 1:53*pm, Donwill wrote:
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
* *Stephen writes:

Hello,

There's an 8' tube in the garage and when it is switched on it takes a
long time (tens of seconds) before the light comes on.

I thought that when tubes failed they blinked several times before
lighting. With this there is no flashing just darkness, darkness,
darkness, light.

The tube and starter have been here longer than we have, so that's at
least four years.

Do I need a new tube or starter or both?

8' tubes can be hard to start in the cold, but I don't think it's
got that cold yet. Given the tube does start eventually, and assuming
it doesn't have darkened (worn) tube ends, my money would be on the
starter having drifted out of spec, but it could still be either.
(The working spec for 8' starters is might tighter than for other tubes..)
It may well be that the electronic (fluoractor-based) starters such
as a Pulsestarter EFS 600 will work better with long tubes; I haven't
tried one on an 8' tube, but it claims it should work.

Secondly, are you sure it has a starter? A control gear type called
semi-resonant start was sometimes used with 5' - 8' tubes, and that
takes longer to start, but works more reliably in the cold. There
is no starter with semi-resonant start control gear.

Finally, check the fitting metalwork is earthed. That can make a big
difference to ease of starting with the long tubes.

I'd definately recomend an electronic starter. In an earlier life I was
in charge of a suite of controlled environment cabinets and rooms, in
which we had approx 500 8ft tubes. We used to have to replace on average
about 20 starters a day until the advent of the electronic starter I
think it was the pulsestarter EFS 800 or was it 600 I can't remember it
was approx 30Yrs ago. The results were dramatic, our replacement rate
reduced to less than one per Month.
Some of the cabinets were working at *10 degC and they still worked
albeit with a reduced light output

Don

20 starters day on 500 fittings = 25 days life per starter. Shouldnt
be hard to see what the problem was


NT

In article ,
NT writes:
On Oct 6, 1:53*pm, Donwill wrote:
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
* *Stephen writes:

Hello,

There's an 8' tube in the garage and when it is switched on it takes a
long time (tens of seconds) before the light comes on.

I thought that when tubes failed they blinked several times before
lighting. With this there is no flashing just darkness, darkness,
darkness, light.

The tube and starter have been here longer than we have, so that's at
least four years.

Do I need a new tube or starter or both?

8' tubes can be hard to start in the cold, but I don't think it's
got that cold yet. Given the tube does start eventually, and assuming
it doesn't have darkened (worn) tube ends, my money would be on the
starter having drifted out of spec, but it could still be either.
(The working spec for 8' starters is might tighter than for other tubes.)
It may well be that the electronic (fluoractor-based) starters such
as a Pulsestarter EFS 600 will work better with long tubes; I haven't
tried one on an 8' tube, but it claims it should work.

Secondly, are you sure it has a starter? A control gear type called
semi-resonant start was sometimes used with 5' - 8' tubes, and that
takes longer to start, but works more reliably in the cold. There
is no starter with semi-resonant start control gear.

Finally, check the fitting metalwork is earthed. That can make a big
difference to ease of starting with the long tubes.

I'd definately recomend an electronic starter. In an earlier life I was
in charge of a suite of controlled environment cabinets and rooms, in
which we had approx 500 8ft tubes. We used to have to replace on average
about 20 starters a day until the advent of the electronic starter I
think it was the pulsestarter EFS 800 or was it 600 I can't remember it
was approx 30Yrs ago. The results were dramatic, our replacement rate
reduced to less than one per Month.

The pulsestarter is not a consumable, and should last the life
of the lighting installation. It was mainly sold wire-ended to
be fitted inside a luminare when manufactured, although there
is a standard starter can version for retrofitting into a
starter socket which you can find in retail outlets (Wickes
is one place I've seen them).

Some of the cabinets were working at *10 degC and they still worked
albeit with a reduced light output

Don
20 starters day on 500 fittings = 25 days life per starter. Shouldnt
be hard to see what the problem was

or maybe half hour life, if it was all one faulty fitting!

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Mon, 5 Oct 2009 11:17:41 +0000 (UTC),
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

Tube flashing continually means the starter is working.
This would normally indicate the tube has failed (particularly
if one end of the tube has dark internal shadow and/or one end
glows white and the other end orange). However, fitting the
wrong starter for the tube can also cause the starter to keep
trying to start a tube which is already started, so wrong value
starter is another possibility.

As an update, I think I may need a new tube. I checked the old starter
and it was the 125W required for an 8' tube, so it was rated
correctly.

Are 8' tubes getting rarer? Everyone seems to sell the starters for
smaller tubes but I found it difficult to get a 125W one locally. I
did eventually get one but with the new starter fitted, the tube
flashes continually without striking, which as you've said above,
suggests the tube has gone.

It's strange as I thought the tubes usually darkened at the ends
before failing but this one does not seem discoloured. I do not know
how old the tube is but the fitting is ancient. Before I go looking
for a new tube is there anything important inside the fitting or are
the starter and the tube all that there is? Is it worth renewing the
whole thing or just the tube?

Thanks again.

On Oct 6, 6:02*pm, Stephen wrote:
On Mon, 5 Oct 2009 11:17:41 +0000 (UTC),

(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:
Tube flashing continually means the starter is working.
This would normally indicate the tube has failed (particularly
if one end of the tube has dark internal shadow and/or one end
glows white and the other end orange). However, fitting the
wrong starter for the tube can also cause the starter to keep
trying to start a tube which is already started, so wrong value
starter is another possibility.

As an update, I think I may need a new tube. I checked the old starter
and it was the 125W required for an 8' tube, so it was rated
correctly.

Are 8' tubes getting rarer? Everyone seems to sell the starters for
smaller tubes but I found it difficult to get a 125W one locally. I
did eventually get one but with the new starter fitted, the tube
flashes continually without striking, which as you've said above,
suggests the tube has gone.

It's strange as I thought the tubes usually darkened at the ends
before failing but this one does not seem discoloured. I do not know
how old the tube is but the fitting is ancient. Before I go looking
for a new tube is there anything important inside the fitting or are
the starter and the tube all that there is? Is it worth renewing the
whole thing or just the tube?

Thanks again.


Just tube and starter to replace. Maybe get a 100w tube rather than
125w.


NT

In article ,
Stephen writes:
On Mon, 5 Oct 2009 11:17:41 +0000 (UTC),
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

Tube flashing continually means the starter is working.
This would normally indicate the tube has failed (particularly
if one end of the tube has dark internal shadow and/or one end
glows white and the other end orange). However, fitting the
wrong starter for the tube can also cause the starter to keep
trying to start a tube which is already started, so wrong value
starter is another possibility.

As an update, I think I may need a new tube. I checked the old starter
and it was the 125W required for an 8' tube, so it was rated
correctly.

Are 8' tubes getting rarer? Everyone seems to sell the starters for
smaller tubes but I found it difficult to get a 125W one locally. I

They are mostly only used commercially - there's no
domestic market for them, so you may need to go to an
electrical wholesaler. 125W tubes have pretty much been
replaced with 100W tubes nowadays, and you can use them
with the 125W ballast in the fitting (they're designed to
retrofit).

did eventually get one but with the new starter fitted, the tube
flashes continually without striking, which as you've said above,
suggests the tube has gone.

It's strange as I thought the tubes usually darkened at the ends
before failing but this one does not seem discoloured. I do not know
how old the tube is but the fitting is ancient. Before I go looking
for a new tube is there anything important inside the fitting or are

Nothing else.

the starter and the tube all that there is? Is it worth renewing the
whole thing or just the tube?

I think you might struggle to find a new 8' fitting nowadays.
The T5 and T8 tubes are used in new commercial fittings today,
and none are made 8' long (in Europe anyway; there is an 8' T8
in the US). There are still lots of commercial 8' installations
in the UK though, and they'll be around until the EU bans the
tubes.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Tue, 6 Oct 2009 23:57:43 +0000 (UTC),
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

I think you might struggle to find a new 8' fitting nowadays.

Thanks for your replies.

I don't desperately need an eight foot light; that's just what was
here when I moved in. I'm sure a smaller tube would light the area
just as well but if I went for a smaller size I would obviously need
to buy a smaller fitting, this one is a bit rusty so a change could be
justified but it might be cheaper just to buy a replacement 8' tube.

There are still lots of commercial 8' installations
in the UK though, and they'll be around until the EU bans the
tubes.

Are they planning to ban them just like the 100W incandescent bulbs? I
never knew that. I don't think it will work.Where shops used to use
one big tube they now use four smaller ones to light the same area so
although the wattage of each tube has fallen, this is balanced by a
four fold increase in the number of tubes which must use the same or
greater power in total. I think the government is wrong to chase after
householders using ten 60W bulbs when shops use several kilowatts of
lighting for ten hours a day, every day; sometimes left on overnight.

On Tue, 6 Oct 2009 10:40:47 -0700 (PDT), NT
wrote:

Just tube and starter to replace. Maybe get a 100w tube rather than
125w.

Thanks. I forgot to say, isn't it strange that the tube will work
without flashing and eventually light with the old starter but not the
new one: does this mean they have both worn out together?

On Oct 8, 9:02*am, Stephen wrote:
On Tue, 6 Oct 2009 10:40:47 -0700 (PDT), NT
wrote:

Just tube and starter to replace. Maybe get a 100w tube rather than
125w.

Thanks. I forgot to say, isn't it strange that the tube will work
without flashing and eventually light with the old starter but not the
new one: does this mean they have both worn out together?

The old one gives the tube a good long preheat before starting it.
The new one flickers and flashes, denying the tube a 100% duty long
preheat time. So the tube must be low on emission, and need that long
warm up to start. IOW while the tube could still be used, its late in
its life cycle, and too late to run on standard equipment.


NT

On Oct 8, 9:01*am, Stephen wrote:
On Tue, 6 Oct 2009 23:57:43 +0000 (UTC),
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

I think you might struggle to find a new 8' fitting nowadays.

Thanks for your replies.

I don't desperately need an eight foot light; that's just what was
here when I moved in. I'm sure a smaller tube would light the area
just as well but if I went for a smaller size I would obviously need
to buy a smaller fitting, this one is a bit rusty so a change could be
justified but it might be cheaper just to buy a replacement 8' tube.

simple to calculate it and see. Allow perhaps 10% loss for an old iron
ballast, so 110w total use.


There are still lots of commercial 8' installations
in the UK though, and they'll be around until the EU bans the
tubes.

Are they planning to ban them just like the 100W incandescent bulbs? I

not afaik, but they are on a very ill considered banning spree


never knew that. I don't think it will work.Where shops used to use
one big tube they now use four smaller ones to light the same area so
although the wattage of each tube has fallen, this is balanced by a
four fold increase in the number of tubes which must use the same or
greater power in total.

8' tubes are rather more efficient than 5'


I think the government is wrong to chase after
householders using ten 60W bulbs when shops use several kilowatts of
lighting for ten hours a day, every day; sometimes left on overnight.

Its just politics, not really sense


NT

In article ,
Stephen writes:
On Tue, 6 Oct 2009 23:57:43 +0000 (UTC),
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

I think you might struggle to find a new 8' fitting nowadays.

Thanks for your replies.

I don't desperately need an eight foot light; that's just what was
here when I moved in. I'm sure a smaller tube would light the area
just as well but if I went for a smaller size I would obviously need
to buy a smaller fitting, this one is a bit rusty so a change could be
justified but it might be cheaper just to buy a replacement 8' tube.

There are still lots of commercial 8' installations
in the UK though, and they'll be around until the EU bans the
tubes.

Are they planning to ban them just like the 100W incandescent bulbs? I
never knew that. I don't think it will work.Where shops used to use
one big tube they now use four smaller ones to light the same area so
although the wattage of each tube has fallen, this is balanced by a
four fold increase in the number of tubes which must use the same or

The 125W tube will be banned by virtue of most of the halophosphate
tubes being banned for having too low efficiency. These are mostly
T12 tubes, and no fittings have been sold for them in the UK since
around 1980, and they have been quite difficult to obtain for the
last 15 years, so no one is much going to notice here (not so true
in other parts of the EU where use it still more widespread). The
100W 8' tube is a strange beast. It was the first ever energy saving
retrofit tube, invented by Thorn Lighting in the late 1970's.
However, unlike the other (later) energy saving retrofits, it's a
T12 rather than a T8. I don't know off-hand what gas fill and phosphor
it uses nowadays, or its efficiency (although it's higher than the
original T12 125W), but it might survive. The original 100W 8' tube
retrofit would only work with series ballast switch-start fittings,
and for this reason, some 8' fittings with rapid start or quick start
control gear couldn't take the energy saving retrofit tube, and had
to continue using the original 125W tube. The technology of the
current versions of the retrofit tube may have changed in the light
of later developments.

greater power in total. I think the government is wrong to chase after
householders using ten 60W bulbs when shops use several kilowatts of
lighting for ten hours a day, every day; sometimes left on overnight.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]