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Default Switch off at the socket?

On Sep 15, 10:53*am, David Skinner
wrote:
In article dd11dcee-9b58-4d46-899e-
, alexander.keys1
@googlemail.com says...



There have been a lot of comments recently about the waste of energy
due to appliances being left on standby, and various gizmo's that are
on offer to turn them off automatically, or otherwise purporting to
save energy. What everybody seems to be forgetting is that an energy-
saving device comes with most UK socket outlets, it's called a
'switch', and when put into the 'off' position, power cosumption is
zero! None of my appliances, including computers, digital TV
receivers, etc. have come to harm through this practice, I always
switch off at the wall, back in the day when there were fewer
appliances this was standard procedure to avoid fire risk.


My parents' 1-and-a-bit-year-old TV broke down the other week. Stopped
receiving DTV and the settings menus became unavailable.

The repair man reloaded the firmware from a memory card, which fixed it.
Then he asked whether it got switched off at the mains a lot. It did -
every night. He said that that may well have been the cause of firmware
corruption and that they should leave the set on standby.

It's a Toshiba Regza something or other, if that matters.


At under 1w power consumption you'd have to leave it on for sooo long
for it to make any difference its just not even funny. I turn off
everything that I can but the TV remains on standby.
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On Sep 15, 11:19*am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article
,
* *Man at B&Q wrote:

Congratulations - you must be the only person in the country who enjoys
reprogramming their VCR/DVD recorder every day...

Explain please. What century was your "VCR/DVD recorder" manufactured
in? Does it use wax cyclinders? You could probably save a fortune in
energy costs by replacing it with a more modern version. Almost
anything from the last 20 years or so should do.


You know of a VCR etc which can do a pre-programmed recording when powered
down at the socket?


No, do you, but that wasn't the issue anyway.

MBQ
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On Sep 15, 10:09*am, "Zimmy" wrote:
"Norman Wells" wrote in message

...
Vortex4 wrote:
"alexander.keys1" wrote in message
....



There have been a lot of comments recently about the waste of energy
due to appliances being left on standby, and various gizmo's that are
on offer to turn them off automatically, or otherwise purporting to
save energy. What everybody seems to be forgetting is that an energy-
saving device comes with most UK socket outlets, it's called a
'switch', and when put into the 'off' position, power cosumption is
zero! None of my appliances, including computers, digital TV
receivers, etc. have come to harm through this practice, I always
switch off at the wall, back in the day when there were fewer
appliances this was standard procedure to avoid fire risk.


David Mackays book is a good read on this subject:
http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/w...page_155.shtml


So he says he can save all of 45 watts if he turns everything off instead
of leaving it on standby when he's not using it. *The equivalent of a very
dim lightbulb therefore. *Great!


However, he ignores the fact that he's also losing 45 watts of heat. *To
keep his house at exactly the same temperature, an extra 45 watts of heat
need to be pumped out by whatever heating system he has, for as much of
the year as he needs any heating at all. *Admittedly, that may be a bit
cheaper if it's gas-fired, but it's still the same amount of energy, so
it's unlikely to have a huge impact on climate change.


You are assuming that those 45W of electricity are converted to 45W of heat
with 100% efficiency which is clearly not true.

Z


It is. But gas/coal etc to electric conversion isnt 100% efficient, so
although the end user uses the same amount of energy, with leccy much
more is also wasted at the power station. Then there's nuclear...


NT
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On 15/09/09 08:54, Gordon Henderson wrote:

http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/sustainable/charger/


I read that and started thinking the 5000W per person figure was a
confusion between power units and energy units, and assuming it meant
5000Wh per person per day, but I decided I'd best check the numbers
before possibly inserting foot into mouth ...

According to the International Energy Association figures for 2001
the total UK energy consumption was 262,186,000 tonnes of oil equivalent

or about 4.3 tonnes of oil per person

or 180 Gigajoules per person

so dividing by 8760 hours that *did* equate to a continuous 5.7kW per
person. Granted some of that will contribute to exported goods and
services, but equally our imports will contribute to other countries'
consumption figures so it's difficult to adjustment for that.

Still barely makes it worthwhile unplugging idle phone chargers though,
most of that power is consumed on our behalf, not directly by us.
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On Sep 15, 11:16*am, "Zimmy" wrote:
"Norman Wells" wrote in message

...



Zimmy wrote:
"Norman Wells" wrote in message
...


However, he ignores the fact that he's also losing 45 watts of heat.
To keep his house at exactly the same temperature, an extra 45 watts
of heat need to be pumped out by whatever heating system he has, for
as much of the year as he needs any heating at all. *Admittedly,
that may be a bit cheaper if it's gas-fired, but it's still the same
amount of energy, so it's unlikely to have a huge impact on climate
change.


You are assuming that those 45W of electricity are converted to 45W
of heat with 100% efficiency which is clearly not true.


Where else do you think it goes?


Hmm, maybe powering the standby circuitry, IR receivers, etc?


Which is ultimately turned into heat.

MBQ



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Zimmy wrote:
"Norman Wells" wrote in message
...
Zimmy wrote:
"Norman Wells" wrote in message
...


However, he ignores the fact that he's also losing 45 watts of
heat. To keep his house at exactly the same temperature, an extra
45 watts of heat need to be pumped out by whatever heating system
he has, for as much of the year as he needs any heating at all.
Admittedly, that may be a bit cheaper if it's gas-fired, but it's
still the same amount of energy, so it's unlikely to have a huge
impact on climate change.

You are assuming that those 45W of electricity are converted to 45W
of heat with 100% efficiency which is clearly not true.


Where else do you think it goes?


Hmm, maybe powering the standby circuitry, IR receivers, etc?


What does it do while it's doing all that, and where do you think it goes
afterwards?

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On Sep 15, 8:57*am, PeterC wrote:

A GF's audio stack: 0.5W w/o clock but 11W with clock - how long on an AA
cell?
--
Peter.
The head of a pin will hold more angels if
it's been flattened with an angel-grinder.


"A GF's".... - how many do you have?!

Jealously,

Matt
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Norman Wells wrote:
You are assuming that those 45W of electricity are converted to 45W
of heat with 100% efficiency which is clearly not true.


Where else do you think it goes?


I suppose those LEDs produce some light? ;-)


Which are absorbed by the walls and furniture, unless you leave your
curtains open at night.

--
Max Demian


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On Sep 15, 11:28*am, Andy Burns wrote:
On 15/09/09 08:54, Gordon Henderson wrote:

http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/sustainable/charger/


I read that and started thinking the 5000W per person figure was a
confusion between power units and energy units, and assuming it meant
5000Wh per person per day, but I decided I'd best check the numbers
before possibly inserting foot into mouth ...

According to the International Energy Association figures for 2001
the total UK energy consumption was 262,186,000 tonnes of oil equivalent

or about 4.3 tonnes of oil per person

or 180 Gigajoules per person

so dividing by 8760 hours that *did* equate to a continuous 5.7kW per
person. Granted some of that will contribute to exported goods and
services, but equally our imports will contribute to other countries'
consumption figures so it's difficult to adjustment for that.

Still barely makes it worthwhile unplugging idle phone chargers though,
most of that power is consumed on our behalf, not directly by us.


Indeed. As the saying goes, 100% of bugger all is still bugger all.
OTOH, even just 20% of something larger like unneccessary nightime
illumination in shops may be worthwhile. i don't know the exact
figures but you see what I mean.

MBQ
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On 15/09/09 11:16, Zimmy wrote:

"Norman Wells" wrote:

Where else do you think it goes?


Hmm, maybe powering the standby circuitry, IR receivers, etc?


And where do you think it ENDS UP? Pretty much the only energy that
doesn't contribute to heating the house is the light and sound that that
makes it through the windows and walls.



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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

You know of a VCR etc which can do a pre-programmed recording when powered
down at the socket?


A media centre PC (laptop) will do that.
They will even wakeup from hibernation and do a recording and then hibernate
again.



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On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 09:39:13 +0100, "Norman Wells"
wrote:

However, he ignores the fact that he's also losing 45 watts of heat. To
keep his house at exactly the same temperature, an extra 45 watts of heat
need to be pumped out by whatever heating system he has, for as much of the
year as he needs any heating at all. Admittedly, that may be a bit cheaper
if it's gas-fired, but it's still the same amount of energy, so it's
unlikely to have a huge impact on climate change.


This is an old (and thoroughly discredited) logical error. Saving 45
watts of energy is not the same as saving 45 watts of heat. For a
start, most of that energy is expended in doing the 'work' - e.g.
lighting lights, spinning discs, and so on. Any excess heat generated
after that (unnecessary) work is done is minimal.

By your logic, if I leave a Sky+ box on standby, then the 20 watts it
spends on spinning the hard disc is converted into 20 watts of heat.
If that were true, it would turn Sky+ into a free energy machine -
which is impossible - breaking every scientific law there is.

Your 45 watts of wasted energy probably results in (I'm guessing here)
maybe 2 watts of heat. Whatever heating system you have is going to be
a FAR more efficient way of generating an equivalent amount of heat.
And considerably cheaper too.

Saving 45 watts at current electricity prices cuts about £40 a year
off your electricity bills. It's just burning money. (And, before you
even suggest it, burning five pound notes is not an efficient way of
heating your home either.)
--
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On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 09:39:13 +0100, Norman Wells wrote:
Vortex4 wrote:
"alexander.keys1" wrote in message
...
There have been a lot of comments recently about the waste of energy
due to appliances being left on standby, and various gizmo's that are
on offer to turn them off automatically, or otherwise purporting to
save energy. What everybody seems to be forgetting is that an energy-
saving device comes with most UK socket outlets, it's called a
'switch', and when put into the 'off' position, power cosumption is
zero! None of my appliances, including computers, digital TV
receivers, etc. have come to harm through this practice, I always
switch off at the wall, back in the day when there were fewer
appliances this was standard procedure to avoid fire risk.


David Mackays book is a good read on this subject:
http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/w...page_155.shtml


So he says he can save all of 45 watts if he turns everything off instead of
leaving it on standby when he's not using it. The equivalent of a very dim
lightbulb therefore. Great!


Which in the very next sentence he states is a saving of £45 per year. Sounds
worth having, esp. as it's savings from taxed income.

However, he ignores the fact that he's also losing 45 watts of heat. To
keep his house at exactly the same temperature, an extra 45 watts of heat
need to be pumped out by whatever heating system he has, for as much of the
year as he needs any heating at all. Admittedly, that may be a bit cheaper
if it's gas-fired, but it's still the same amount of energy, so it's
unlikely to have a huge impact on climate change.


True, as far as it goes. However for (depending where you live & how well
insulated your house is) half the year, it's wasted heat. Plus it doesn't
contribute to the _usable_ room environment when the occupants are asleep
or out - which for a single person, or couple both working is a significant
proportion of the week.
And, the £45 you save buys you more gas heating than this wasted leccy
provides, so the saving is definitely worthwhile on a purely financial
basis, as _well_ as a social / moral position of profligate energy use.
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On Sep 15, 12:02*pm, (Zero Tolerance)
wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 09:39:13 +0100, "Norman Wells"

wrote:
However, he ignores the fact that he's also losing 45 watts of heat. *To
keep his house at exactly the same temperature, an extra 45 watts of heat
need to be pumped out by whatever heating system he has, for as much of the
year as he needs any heating at all. *Admittedly, that may be a bit cheaper
if it's gas-fired, but it's still the same amount of energy, so it's
unlikely to have a huge impact on climate change.


This is an old (and thoroughly discredited) logical error. Saving 45
watts of energy is not the same as saving 45 watts of heat. For a
start, most of that energy is expended in doing the 'work' - e.g.
lighting lights, spinning discs, and so on. Any excess heat generated
after that (unnecessary) work is done is minimal.

By your logic, if I leave a Sky+ box on standby, then the 20 watts it
spends on spinning the hard disc is converted into 20 watts of heat.


It is.

If that were true, it would turn Sky+ into a free energy machine -


It's taken 20W from the mains supply. How is that "free"?

which is impossible - breaking every scientific law there is.


I think a few laws were broken when they let you loose on society.

Your 45 watts of wasted energy probably results in (I'm guessing here)
maybe 2 watts of heat.


What do you think happens to the other 43W?

MBQ

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Zero Tolerance wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 09:39:13 +0100, "Norman Wells"
wrote:

However, he ignores the fact that he's also losing 45 watts of heat.
To keep his house at exactly the same temperature, an extra 45 watts
of heat need to be pumped out by whatever heating system he has, for
as much of the year as he needs any heating at all. Admittedly,
that may be a bit cheaper if it's gas-fired, but it's still the same
amount of energy, so it's unlikely to have a huge impact on climate
change.


This is an old (and thoroughly discredited) logical error.


Who has 'discredited' it, and where?

Saving 45
watts of energy is not the same as saving 45 watts of heat. For a
start, most of that energy is expended in doing the 'work' - e.g.
lighting lights, spinning discs, and so on. Any excess heat generated
after that (unnecessary) work is done is minimal.

By your logic, if I leave a Sky+ box on standby, then the 20 watts it
spends on spinning the hard disc is converted into 20 watts of heat.


You're following me well so far.

If that were true, it would turn Sky+ into a free energy machine -
which is impossible - breaking every scientific law there is.


Why do you think it takes 20 watts of energy to keep a spinning disc
spinning?


Your 45 watts of wasted energy probably results in (I'm guessing here)
maybe 2 watts of heat.


You never studied any science at school, did you?

If you did, you either never got as far as the law of conservation of
energy, or never understood it if you did.

Whatever heating system you have is going to be
a FAR more efficient way of generating an equivalent amount of heat.
And considerably cheaper too.


It will be somewhat more efficient, and it will be somewhat cheaper as long
as it's not electric. There are some savings to be made therefore, but not
as much as greeny-weenies think.



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On Sep 15, 12:06*pm, pete wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 09:39:13 +0100, Norman Wells wrote:
Vortex4 wrote:
"alexander.keys1" wrote in message
....
There have been a lot of comments recently about the waste of energy
due to appliances being left on standby, and various gizmo's that are
on offer to turn them off automatically, or otherwise purporting to
save energy. What everybody seems to be forgetting is that an energy-
saving device comes with most UK socket outlets, it's called a
'switch', and when put into the 'off' position, power cosumption is
zero! None of my appliances, including computers, digital TV
receivers, etc. have come to harm through this practice, I always
switch off at the wall, back in the day when there were fewer
appliances this was standard procedure to avoid fire risk.


David Mackays book is a good read on this subject:
http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/w...page_155.shtml


So he says he can save all of 45 watts if he turns everything off instead of
leaving it on standby when he's not using it. *The equivalent of a very dim
lightbulb therefore. *Great!


Which in the very next sentence he states is a saving of £45 per year. Sounds
worth having, esp. as it's savings from taxed income.

However, he ignores the fact that he's also losing 45 watts of heat. *To
keep his house at exactly the same temperature, an extra 45 watts of heat
need to be pumped out by whatever heating system he has, for as much of the
year as he needs any heating at all. *Admittedly, that may be a bit cheaper
if it's gas-fired, but it's still the same amount of energy, so it's
unlikely to have a huge impact on climate change.


True, as far as it goes. However for (depending where you live & how well
insulated your house is) half the year, it's wasted heat. Plus it doesn't
contribute to the _usable_ room environment when the occupants are asleep
or out -


Warming an empty room will reduce heat loss from adjacent rooms so it
does have some effect.

You're also getting getting dangerously close to "is it better to
leave the heating on all the time or let the house cool down and warm
it up again" ;-)

MBQ
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#1 Worst modern energy hog - computer router.
- Many draw 30W continuously 24/7 literally roasting away
- If not needed overnight (10hrs say) it is 109 units or £12/yr

Getting it down to 1W gives a real world 29W saving.

#2 Worst missed energy opportunity - TV & Monitor.
- Going LCD from CRT did not save much for many people
- Moving to LED from LCD for TV & Monitor would do so.

Real possibility of a real world 29+29W saving.

#3 Some nasty LED clocks can run 9W.
- Easily replaced by LCD, some battery cost
- However with 3-4 clocks the saving does add up

Overall not difficult to get £100/yr saving or £1000 a decade towards
your heating system's depreciation.

Not worth changing a TV/Monitor - just when it fails (and they will)
the replacement can be LED (and most likely will looking 3yrs out).
Worth waiting that long anyway as backlight optics will take a while
to settle (easier with LED over CFL but still at early adopter stage).

We do not have enough uptake of heat pump technology (air to air) to
replace the millions of (radiant) gas fires out there. Most are only
50% efficient and a fair chunk of that efficiency vanishes up the
chimney dragging cold air through the house with it in voluminous
quantities. An A-A heat pump is cheaper than most fires, but not
likely to last a decade. Worse are the poor sods with "1-bar electric
fires". Warmfront for starters need sacking and a different system is
required based on consumer choice and a few inspectors rather than a
brown-overall "it creates jobs" civil servant in smoke filled room
gravy train.
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On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 04:25:19 -0700 (PDT), Man at B&Q wrote:
On Sep 15, 12:06*pm, pete wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 09:39:13 +0100, Norman Wells wrote:
Vortex4 wrote:
"alexander.keys1" wrote in message
...
There have been a lot of comments recently about the waste of energy
due to appliances being left on standby, and various gizmo's that are
on offer to turn them off automatically, or otherwise purporting to
save energy. What everybody seems to be forgetting is that an energy-
saving device comes with most UK socket outlets, it's called a
'switch', and when put into the 'off' position, power cosumption is
zero! None of my appliances, including computers, digital TV
receivers, etc. have come to harm through this practice, I always
switch off at the wall, back in the day when there were fewer
appliances this was standard procedure to avoid fire risk.


David Mackays book is a good read on this subject:
http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/w...page_155.shtml


So he says he can save all of 45 watts if he turns everything off instead of
leaving it on standby when he's not using it. *The equivalent of a very dim
lightbulb therefore. *Great!


Which in the very next sentence he states is a saving of £45 per year. Sounds
worth having, esp. as it's savings from taxed income.

However, he ignores the fact that he's also losing 45 watts of heat. *To
keep his house at exactly the same temperature, an extra 45 watts of heat
need to be pumped out by whatever heating system he has, for as much of the
year as he needs any heating at all. *Admittedly, that may be a bit cheaper
if it's gas-fired, but it's still the same amount of energy, so it's
unlikely to have a huge impact on climate change.


True, as far as it goes. However for (depending where you live & how well
insulated your house is) half the year, it's wasted heat. Plus it doesn't
contribute to the _usable_ room environment when the occupants are asleep
or out -


Warming an empty room will reduce heat loss from adjacent rooms so it
does have some effect.


While true in theory at least, until you quantify the amount it, saying that
doesn't contribute anything useful to the discussion.
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On Sep 15, 12:37*pm, "js.b1" wrote:
- Moving to LED from LCD for TV & Monitor would do so.

Real possibility of a real world 29+29W saving.


Show me a lerge OLED screen that's any good. Why do you think all the
Sony ones ended up in the bargain bins?

OLED is fine for phones & the like but it's just not there yet for
anything as large as a monitor or TV.

MBQ

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On Sep 15, 12:51*pm, pete wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 04:25:19 -0700 (PDT), Man at B&Q wrote:
On Sep 15, 12:06*pm, pete wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 09:39:13 +0100, Norman Wells wrote:
Vortex4 wrote:
"alexander.keys1" wrote in message
...
There have been a lot of comments recently about the waste of energy
due to appliances being left on standby, and various gizmo's that are
on offer to turn them off automatically, or otherwise purporting to
save energy. What everybody seems to be forgetting is that an energy-
saving device comes with most UK socket outlets, it's called a
'switch', and when put into the 'off' position, power cosumption is
zero! None of my appliances, including computers, digital TV
receivers, etc. have come to harm through this practice, I always
switch off at the wall, back in the day when there were fewer
appliances this was standard procedure to avoid fire risk.


David Mackays book is a good read on this subject:
http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/w...page_155.shtml


So he says he can save all of 45 watts if he turns everything off instead of
leaving it on standby when he's not using it. *The equivalent of a very dim
lightbulb therefore. *Great!


Which in the very next sentence he states is a saving of £45 per year. Sounds
worth having, esp. as it's savings from taxed income.


However, he ignores the fact that he's also losing 45 watts of heat. *To
keep his house at exactly the same temperature, an extra 45 watts of heat
need to be pumped out by whatever heating system he has, for as much of the
year as he needs any heating at all. *Admittedly, that may be a bit cheaper
if it's gas-fired, but it's still the same amount of energy, so it's
unlikely to have a huge impact on climate change.


True, as far as it goes. However for (depending where you live & how well
insulated your house is) half the year, it's wasted heat. Plus it doesn't
contribute to the _usable_ room environment when the occupants are asleep
or out -


Warming an empty room will reduce heat loss from adjacent rooms so it
does have some effect.


While true in theory at least, until you quantify the amount it, saying that
doesn't contribute anything useful to the discussion.


shrug Neither does your grammar, if you want to be pedantic about
it.

MBQ


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Default Switch off at the socket?

"Halmyre" wrote in message
...
On 14 Sep, 23:30, Mike Swift wrote:
In article
.com, NT writes

There have been a lot of comments recently about the waste of energy
due to appliances being left on standby, and various gizmo's that are
on offer to turn them off automatically, or otherwise purporting to
save energy. What everybody seems to be forgetting is that an energy-
saving device comes with most UK socket outlets, it's called a
'switch', and when put into the 'off' position, power cosumption is
zero! None of my appliances, including computers, digital TV
receivers, etc. have come to harm through this practice, I always
switch off at the wall, back in the day when there were fewer
appliances this was standard procedure to avoid fire risk.


The phantom power issue is much over stated. In most cases it isn't
worth getting up to switch things off.


Have you ever driven through most towns late at night, the shops are lit
up like Blackpool illuminations, and they want us to switch off at the
power socket.


I wonder what the residents of Blackpool use as a comparative
reference when they want to comment on levels of illumination?

--
Halmyre


Las Vegas?


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Default Switch off at the socket?

On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 07:54:45 +0000 (UTC), Gordon Henderson wrote:

I did the power meter thing a year or 2 ago - went round the house
meansuring everything. The only real surprise was my HP Colour Laser
printer. In it's "low-power" idle mode it's sucking 30W. That now gets
turned off.


My old HP5N took 45s from standby or 45s from On - I didn't bother to
measure it as there was no advantage in it being on, but I'd guess it was
about the same.
--
Peter.
The head of a pin will hold more angels if
it's been flattened with an angel-grinder.
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Default Switch off at the socket?


"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Andrew
scribeth thus
On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 14:43:54 -0700 (PDT), "alexander.keys1"
wrote:

There have been a lot of comments recently about the waste of energy
due to appliances being left on standby, and various gizmo's that are
on offer to turn them off automatically, or otherwise purporting to
save energy. What everybody seems to be forgetting is that an energy-
saving device comes with most UK socket outlets, it's called a
'switch', and when put into the 'off' position, power cosumption is
zero! None of my appliances, including computers, digital TV
receivers, etc. have come to harm through this practice, I always
switch off at the wall, back in the day when there were fewer
appliances this was standard procedure to avoid fire risk.


They can't switch the power stations off overnight, so they may as
well power the 1W my TV takes to be in standby.


I seem to remember that some hydro electric plant is powered down and
some gas fired .. but coal is rather long winded to slow down and
restart..


They use the spare overnight power to pump the water back up in a stored
hydro power station so that it's full in the morning when everyone turns
their kettles on, so it isn't wasted.

tim



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Default Switch off at the socket?

On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 10:53:06 +0100, David Skinner wrote:

In article dd11dcee-9b58-4d46-899e-
, alexander.keys1
@googlemail.com says...

There have been a lot of comments recently about the waste of energy
due to appliances being left on standby, and various gizmo's that are
on offer to turn them off automatically, or otherwise purporting to
save energy. What everybody seems to be forgetting is that an energy-
saving device comes with most UK socket outlets, it's called a
'switch', and when put into the 'off' position, power cosumption is
zero! None of my appliances, including computers, digital TV
receivers, etc. have come to harm through this practice, I always
switch off at the wall, back in the day when there were fewer
appliances this was standard procedure to avoid fire risk.


My parents' 1-and-a-bit-year-old TV broke down the other week. Stopped
receiving DTV and the settings menus became unavailable.

The repair man reloaded the firmware from a memory card, which fixed it.
Then he asked whether it got switched off at the mains a lot. It did -
every night. He said that that may well have been the cause of firmware
corruption and that they should leave the set on standby.

It's a Toshiba Regza something or other, if that matters.


Ah, got one of those here (not mine but some friends staying here for a few
weeks wanted a new TV so we're using theirs) and it's switched off most of
the time.
Difference is, it's not using the Freeview decoder as my arial isn't good
enough (gets ITV etc. but not BBC), so we haven't noticed anything wrong
with DTV. It's only 2 months old so might have been modified since a year
or so ago.
--
Peter.
The head of a pin will hold more angels if
it's been flattened with an angel-grinder.
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Default Switch off at the socket?

It will be somewhat more efficient, and it will be somewhat cheaper as
long as it's not electric. There are some savings to be made therefore,
but not as much as greeny-weenies think.


As has been said, ZT, all energy coming into your home ends up as heat,
which for maybe seven months of the year is actually desirable.

Switching off your 45W of standby power just means your central heating
system has to deliver 45W more heat to keep the room stat clicked off, so
you don't gain anything. None of this breaks any laws of physics: it's all
about conservation of energy.

You may argue that 45W from your gas supply is environmentally "greener"
than 45W from your electricity supply, which is probably true but it's a
close call. And, of course, we agree that during the summer months that 45W
leakage into your home is actually undesirable, because you're already warm
enough.

Clearly, then, there will be savings by switching to off rather than to
standby, but the crucial point is that these savings are *much* less than
the green pundits claim, and are almost not savings at all during the winter
months.

SteveT



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Default Switch off at the socket?


"David Skinner" wrote in message
t...
In article dd11dcee-9b58-4d46-899e-


My parents' 1-and-a-bit-year-old TV broke down the other week. Stopped
receiving DTV and the settings menus became unavailable.

The repair man reloaded the firmware from a memory card, which fixed it.
Then he asked whether it got switched off at the mains a lot. It did -
every night. He said that that may well have been the cause of firmware
corruption and that they should leave the set on standby.

It's a Toshiba Regza something or other, if that matters.


Mr repair man is talking rubbish to get out of telling you what the real
problem was. When I first went on cable tv the installation guy from Nynex
(as it was then; later C&W then NTL and finally Virgin Media) wanted the STB
left permanently on standby so they could send messages to the television.
Now it gets turned off whenever I am out and overnight and, apart from it
taking a minute to settle down when first switched back on, there are no
problems.

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Default Switch off at the socket?

In message , Ian
writes

"David Skinner" wrote in message
et...
In article dd11dcee-9b58-4d46-899e-


My parents' 1-and-a-bit-year-old TV broke down the other week. Stopped
receiving DTV and the settings menus became unavailable.

The repair man reloaded the firmware from a memory card, which fixed it.
Then he asked whether it got switched off at the mains a lot. It did -
every night. He said that that may well have been the cause of firmware
corruption and that they should leave the set on standby.

It's a Toshiba Regza something or other, if that matters.


Mr repair man is talking rubbish to get out of telling you what the
real problem was. When I first went on cable tv the installation guy
from Nynex (as it was then; later C&W then NTL and finally Virgin
Media) wanted the STB left permanently on standby so they could send
messages to the television. Now it gets turned off whenever I am out
and overnight and, apart from it taking a minute to settle down when
first switched back on, there are no problems.


They wouldn't be sending messages to the TV. They would be sending
messages to the STB.

Assuming you're talking about the old analogue STB, it was common
practice (indeed often necessary) to send information about frequencies,
displayed channel numbers, pay services etc (not unlike the various
changes and updates which go on for off-air DTT). Most of these changes
were sent continuously (cycling through the data 24/24) and, in large
cable TV systems, it could take several hours between one update and the
next.

If a STB was totally switched off when not in use, it was not uncommon
for it to miss the latest data - especially if it was addressed to that
particular unit. This was particularly important for new installations
which, when first installed, might not be authorised to receive all the
services requested by the customer. This often resulted in an
essentially un-necessary call to the customer services department, who
would have to do a manual re-send of the data applicable to that STB.
Depending on the workload etc, this could take some time, during which
the customer might again have totally switched off the STB (or might be,
say, be at work, having home with the STB switched-off).

As a result, the customer services people were sometimes led a merry
dance and, despite their best efforts, the customer became more and more
dissatisfied with the apparent lack of service! Hence the request from
the installation guy to leave the STB at least in standby.
--
Ian
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Default Switch off at the socket?

On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 07:10:50 +0100, Halmyre
wrote:

On 14 Sep, 23:30, Mike Swift wrote:
In article
.com, NT writes

There have been a lot of comments recently about the waste of energy
due to appliances being left on standby, and various gizmo's that are
on offer to turn them off automatically, or otherwise purporting to
save energy. What everybody seems to be forgetting is that an energy-
saving device comes with most UK socket outlets, it's called a
'switch', and when put into the 'off' position, power cosumption is
zero! None of my appliances, including computers, digital TV
receivers, etc. have come to harm through this practice, I always
switch off at the wall, back in the day when there were fewer
appliances this was standard procedure to avoid fire risk.


The phantom power issue is much over stated. In most cases it isn't
worth getting up to switch things off.


Have you ever driven through most towns late at night, the shops are lit
up like Blackpool illuminations, and they want us to switch off at the
power socket.


I wonder what the residents of Blackpool use as a comparative
reference when they want to comment on levels of illumination?


A floodlight football pitch with a double decker bus on it that has come
from Wales?

Fred X
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Default Switch off at the socket?

On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 13:14:51 +0100, No Spam Please suggested:

"Halmyre" asked in message
...

I wonder what the residents of Blackpool use as a comparative reference
when they want to comment on levels of illumination?


Las Vegas?


My exact same thoughts. Some facts and figures at

http://green.thefuntimesguide.COM/2007/04/las_vegas_energy_use.php

Is it not the case that without the Hoover Dam, the bright lights of
Las Vegas would not be possible?


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Default Switch off at the socket?

On Sep 15, 3:12*pm, "Ian" wrote:
"David Skinner" wrote in message

t...

In article dd11dcee-9b58-4d46-899e-


My parents' 1-and-a-bit-year-old TV broke down the other week. Stopped
receiving DTV and the settings menus became unavailable.


The repair man reloaded the firmware from a memory card, which fixed it..
Then he asked whether it got switched off at the mains a lot. It did -
every night. He said that that may well have been the cause of firmware
corruption and that they should leave the set on standby.


It's a Toshiba Regza something or other, if that matters.


Mr repair man is talking rubbish to get out of telling you what the real
problem was.


What is the real problem, then?

MBQ


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Default Switch off at the socket?



"Man at B&Q" wrote in message
...
On Sep 15, 11:16 am, "Zimmy" wrote:
"Norman Wells" wrote in message

...



Zimmy wrote:
"Norman Wells" wrote in message
...


However, he ignores the fact that he's also losing 45 watts of heat.
To keep his house at exactly the same temperature, an extra 45 watts
of heat need to be pumped out by whatever heating system he has, for
as much of the year as he needs any heating at all. Admittedly,
that may be a bit cheaper if it's gas-fired, but it's still the same
amount of energy, so it's unlikely to have a huge impact on climate
change.


You are assuming that those 45W of electricity are converted to 45W
of heat with 100% efficiency which is clearly not true.


Where else do you think it goes?


Hmm, maybe powering the standby circuitry, IR receivers, etc?


Which is ultimately turned into heat.


OK! Thanks to all who put me straight. Ultimately, yes it ends up as heat,
but its an expensive way to heat your house. I think I'll be sticking to gas
CH instead of filling my rooms with wall-warts. :-)

Z

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Default Switch off at the socket?

On 14 Sep, 23:30, Mike Swift wrote:


Have you ever driven through most towns late at night, the shops are lit
up like Blackpool illuminations, and they want us to switch off at the
power socket.

Mike


It's not just town and city centres. Our local councillors are
trumpeting about their reaction to a suggestion that a tree in the
area be lit up at night. They think they've triumphed by providing
different coloured lights on the tree according to the season. The
formal switching on was the other night.

We've just completed a questionnaire put out by the council about
saving power and telling us to save money by turning down the heating
by one degree. We can't, it won't go any lower than 10C. Yet they've
spent our money on the installation of these lights as well as the
running costs.

You can tell that I'm not pleased ...

Mary

--
Michael Swift * * * * * We do not regard Englishmen as foreigners. * * *
Kirkheaton * * * * * * *We look on them only as rather mad Norwegians. * *
Yorkshire * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Halvard Lange


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wrote in message
...
On 14 Sep, 23:30, Mike Swift wrote:


Have you ever driven through most towns late at night, the shops are lit
up like Blackpool illuminations, and they want us to switch off at the
power socket.

Mike


It's not just town and city centres. Our local councillors are
trumpeting about their reaction to a suggestion that a tree in the
area be lit up at night.


Well they are sort of half right. It would be a complete waste of energy to
light it up in the daytime.

Adam

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On 2009-09-15, Zero Tolerance wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 09:39:13 +0100, "Norman Wells"
wrote:

However, he ignores the fact that he's also losing 45 watts of heat. To
keep his house at exactly the same temperature, an extra 45 watts of heat
need to be pumped out by whatever heating system he has, for as much of the
year as he needs any heating at all. Admittedly, that may be a bit cheaper
if it's gas-fired, but it's still the same amount of energy, so it's
unlikely to have a huge impact on climate change.


This is an old (and thoroughly discredited) logical error. Saving 45
watts of energy is not the same as saving 45 watts of heat. For a
start, most of that energy is expended in doing the 'work' - e.g.
lighting lights, spinning discs, and so on. Any excess heat generated
after that (unnecessary) work is done is minimal.

By your logic, if I leave a Sky+ box on standby, then the 20 watts it
spends on spinning the hard disc is converted into 20 watts of heat.


It is, through vibrations and friction in the bearings.

If that were true, it would turn Sky+ into a free energy machine -


It would not.

which is impossible - breaking every scientific law there is.


No, it would not.

--
David Taylor
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Man at B&Q wrote:
On Sep 15, 11:28 am, Andy Burns wrote:
On 15/09/09 08:54, Gordon Henderson wrote:

http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/sustainable/charger/


I read that and started thinking the 5000W per person figure was a
confusion between power units and energy units, and assuming it meant
5000Wh per person per day, but I decided I'd best check the numbers
before possibly inserting foot into mouth ...

According to the International Energy Association figures for 2001
the total UK energy consumption was 262,186,000 tonnes of oil
equivalent

or about 4.3 tonnes of oil per person

or 180 Gigajoules per person

so dividing by 8760 hours that *did* equate to a continuous 5.7kW per
person. Granted some of that will contribute to exported goods and
services, but equally our imports will contribute to other countries'
consumption figures so it's difficult to adjustment for that.

Still barely makes it worthwhile unplugging idle phone chargers
though, most of that power is consumed on our behalf, not directly
by us.


Indeed. As the saying goes, 100% of bugger all is still bugger all.
OTOH, even just 20% of something larger like unneccessary nightime
illumination in shops may be worthwhile. i don't know the exact
figures but you see what I mean.


I think the retailers would take the view that illuminated shops are less
likely to be burgled/vandalised. There is an energy cost in dealing with
crime.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk


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On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 16:47:46 +0000 (UTC), David Taylor
wrote:

On 2009-09-15, Zero Tolerance wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 09:39:13 +0100, "Norman Wells"
wrote:

However, he ignores the fact that he's also losing 45 watts of heat. To
keep his house at exactly the same temperature, an extra 45 watts of heat
need to be pumped out by whatever heating system he has, for as much of the
year as he needs any heating at all. Admittedly, that may be a bit cheaper
if it's gas-fired, but it's still the same amount of energy, so it's
unlikely to have a huge impact on climate change.


This is an old (and thoroughly discredited) logical error. Saving 45
watts of energy is not the same as saving 45 watts of heat. For a
start, most of that energy is expended in doing the 'work' - e.g.
lighting lights, spinning discs, and so on. Any excess heat generated
after that (unnecessary) work is done is minimal.

By your logic, if I leave a Sky+ box on standby, then the 20 watts it
spends on spinning the hard disc is converted into 20 watts of heat.


It is, through vibrations and friction in the bearings.

If that were true, it would turn Sky+ into a free energy machine -


It would not.

which is impossible - breaking every scientific law there is.


No, it would not.


Quite. Scientific laws would be broken if energy went into a box of
electronics (from the mains connection or a battery) and did not come
out in some form: heat, light, sound, whatever.

--
Peter Duncanson
(in uk.tech.digital-tv)
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On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 14:43:54 -0700 (PDT), "alexander.keys1"
wrote:

There have been a lot of comments recently about the waste of energy
due to appliances being left on standby, and various gizmo's that are
on offer to turn them off automatically, or otherwise purporting to
save energy. What everybody seems to be forgetting is that an energy-
saving device comes with most UK socket outlets, it's called a
'switch', and when put into the 'off' position, power cosumption is
zero! None of my appliances, including computers, digital TV
receivers, etc. have come to harm through this practice, I always
switch off at the wall, back in the day when there were fewer
appliances this was standard procedure to avoid fire risk.


This energy isn't wasted. Its given off as heat, which is quite useful
in a domestic house.
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In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
You know of a VCR etc which can do a pre-programmed recording when
powered down at the socket?


A media centre PC (laptop) will do that. They will even wakeup from
hibernation and do a recording and then hibernate again.


Great. So a laptop uses a battery to achieve this. Very energy efficient.

--
*I took an IQ test and the results were negative.

Dave Plowman London SW
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