Part P paperwork
 

what does one do if one's electrician goes bust after completing (now
covered) work but before issuing certificates etc for building
control?

ta
jim

Part P paperwork
 

jim wibbled:

what does one do if one's electrician goes bust after completing (now
covered) work but before issuing certificates etc for building
control?

ta
jim

I'm doing my own under Part P. My BCO wanted some basic evidence of
qualifications and an EIC (Electrical Installation Certificate) which can
be downloaded from www.theiet.org somewhere.

Unfortunately, effectively, to now get an EIC, you will want a full PIR
(Periodic Installation Report) which includes sample visual checking and a
full set of measured tests which produce the numbers that go on the
Schedule of Tests on the EIC.

The new bloke won't be able to make any assumptions about the wiring so
he'll have to check everything that's accessible and measure everything
again.

Firstly, do Building Control know about this job? You could (slightly
illegally) ignore the issue if you think his work was good.

Secondly, if you do want or need to be by the book, you could go and talk to
the BCO and ask him what to do. They may say get a PIR done (probably in
the region of 150-300 quid).

Thirdly, was the chap who went bust a member of the NICEIC or one of the
other bodies? You could his professional body, explain the problem and ask
them if the insurance that he may have had with them covers them sorting
the problem out? (I have no idea what the NICEIC et al insurance covers -
but I'd make the phone call).

Lot of it about sadly at the moment...

HTH

Tim

Part P paperwork
 

On Jul 30, 1:10*pm, Tim S wrote:
jim wibbled:

what does one do if one's electrician goes bust after completing (now
covered) work but before issuing certificates etc for building
control?


As a matter of interest, does the contractor supply the BC
certification documents to the homeowner or directly to building
control?


Robert

Part P paperwork
 

On 30 July, 13:21, RobertL wrote:
On Jul 30, 1:10 pm, Tim S wrote:

jim wibbled:

what does one do if one's electrician goes bust after completing (now
covered) work but before issuing certificates etc for building
control?

As a matter of interest, does the contractor supply the BC
certification documents to the homeowner or directly to building
control?

Robert

my bco was expecting me to send him certs....
expect there are other ways around a la FENSA racket?

jim

Part P paperwork
 

On 30 July, 13:10, Tim S wrote:
jim wibbled:

what does one do if one's electrician goes bust after completing (now
covered) work but before issuing certificates etc for building
control?

ta
jim

I'm doing my own under Part P. My BCO wanted some basic evidence of
qualifications and an EIC (Electrical Installation Certificate) which can
be downloaded fromwww.theiet.orgsomewhere.

Unfortunately, effectively, to now get an EIC, you will want a full PIR
(Periodic Installation Report) which includes sample visual checking and a
full set of measured tests which produce the numbers that go on the
Schedule of Tests on the EIC.

The new bloke won't be able to make any assumptions about the wiring so
he'll have to check everything that's accessible and measure everything
again.

Firstly, do Building Control know about this job? You could (slightly
illegally) ignore the issue if you think his work was good.

Secondly, if you do want or need to be by the book, you could go and talk to
the BCO and ask him what to do. They may say get a PIR done (probably in
the region of 150-300 quid).

Thirdly, was the chap who went bust a member of the NICEIC or one of the
other bodies? You could his professional body, explain the problem and ask
them if the insurance that he may have had with them covers them sorting
the problem out? (I have no idea what the NICEIC et al insurance covers -
but I'd make the phone call).

Lot of it about sadly at the moment...

HTH

Tim

some good thoughts thanks

BTW what happens if i don't get the certs to give to the BCO? (or
until a reasonable time (years) has passed before forking out for
another PIR) - does the BCO file stay alive or can they pressure me to
sort it somehow?

ta
jim

Part P paperwork
 

jim wibbled:

BTW what happens if i don't get the certs to give to the BCO? (or
until a reasonable time (years) has passed before forking out for
another PIR) - does the BCO file stay alive or can they pressure me to
sort it somehow?

Could you clarify of the job was on a Building notice, or you were expecting
self-cerification via NICEIC etc.

Doe teh BCO know about the wiring work?

Then I can answer your question more accurately :)

Part P paperwork
 

jim wrote:
BTW what happens if i don't get the certs to give to the BCO? (or
until a reasonable time (years) has passed before forking out for
another PIR) - does the BCO file stay alive or can they pressure me to
sort it somehow?

It'll probably eventually be noticed when the house comes to be sold.

We had an extension which was done in the early 1990s and we forgot to
get the final building control sign-off. So the file remained open until
we sold the house in 2007. I think the new owners had to get it
regularised.

Part P paperwork
 

"jim" wrote in message
...
what does one do if one's electrician goes bust after completing (now
covered) work but before issuing certificates etc for building
control?

ta
jim

I thought the act required someone of the right persuasion, ie belongs to
the right club, to carry out the relevant work. Is there any part in the
act which requires a certificate?

Part P paperwork
 

Jim wibbled:

jim wrote:
BTW what happens if i don't get the certs to give to the BCO? (or
until a reasonable time (years) has passed before forking out for
another PIR) - does the BCO file stay alive or can they pressure me to
sort it somehow?

It'll probably eventually be noticed when the house comes to be sold.

It may or may not. You can get indemnity insurance (100 odd quid) at sale
time to placate panicy buyers - it's a worthless purchase to solve a non
problem but it seems a de facto solution.

As far as you go - in a couple of years there's nothing the LABC can do to
you due to limitations of law, and in this case they are not likely to
attempt a prosecution... It tends to be bent and dangerous tradesmen that
they spend time persuing, not householders.

Technically (and Hugo may give a more informed opinion as he is a BCO) I
think you'd need to regularise this as your main option with the LABC,
which is typically going to cost 100-150 quid (very dependant on LABC)
*and* they may want you to produce an EIC at your expense, so that's
another 150-300 for a PIR.

But you can regularise at any time from a practical point of view, eg when
you are thinking of selling, which means you could take an opinion from
your solicitor at the time (but do it before the 17th IEE regs change to
the 18th otherwise your installation may magically become non compliant)

OTOH, unless you are sure of the last chap's work, getting a PIR done now
would give you peace of mind that he did a decent job.

Sorry - it's hard to tell you what to do, the decision is yours.

Why not start by finding out which professional body the last bloke was a
member of and phoning them - there may be a cheaper way out of this - this
is why professional bodies exist after all, though milage may vary. For a
50p phone call it won't do any harm to ask. I would *hope* that under these
circumstances the NICEIC would send another member round to test the
installation and register it for you under the insurance system for free or
reduced cost. It's a bloody long shot and I'm cynical, but I *would*
explore this avenue.

Next step is a visit in person to your LABC - a face to face with the BCO
will probably get you more sense than any remaining other options.

Or ignore it...

Cheers

Tim

Part P paperwork
 

Fredxx wibbled:


"jim" wrote in message
...
what does one do if one's electrician goes bust after completing (now
covered) work but before issuing certificates etc for building
control?

ta
jim

I thought the act required someone of the right persuasion, ie belongs to
the right club, to carry out the relevant work. Is there any part in the
act which requires a certificate?

The club would always require an EIC or Minor Works Cert for any work done.

I don't think the legislation specifically requires on but it's required
de-facto to demonstrate a safe installation to interested parties and the
act does require this.

So either way, effectively you need one.

Part P paperwork
 

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
RobertL wrote:

On Jul 30, 1:10 pm, Tim S wrote:
jim wibbled:

what does one do if one's electrician goes bust after completing
(now covered) work but before issuing certificates etc for building
control?


As a matter of interest, does the contractor supply the BC
certification documents to the homeowner or directly to building
control?


Robert

I'm not sure what the official process is, or even whether it's always the
same under different circumstances.

I recently had some electrical work done in connection with converting a
garage into a kitchen. The overall job was covered by a Building Notice. In
my case, the electrician gave the installation/test certificates direct to
me - and the BCO asked to see them when he did the final inspection.[I think
I gave him photocopies]. The electrician also sent some form of electronic
notification to Building Control, and notified his professional body -
ElecSa in this case. The official Part P Certificate came in the post,
direct from ElecSa.

I've no idea whether this is the way it's supposed to happen - but it
appears to have worked ok.
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

Part P paperwork
 

On 30 July, 13:31, Tim S wrote:
jim wibbled:

BTW what happens if i don't get the certs to give to the BCO? (or
until a reasonable time (years) has passed before forking out for
another PIR) - does the BCO file stay alive or can they pressure me to
sort it somehow?

Could you clarify of the job was on a Building notice, or you were expecting
self-cerification via NICEIC etc.

Doe teh BCO know about the wiring work?

Then I can answer your question more accurately :)

seems you have probly covered most angles most helpfully but to answer
the questions -

-job was a full plans approval and yes BCO knows about wiring (quite a
bit done) and is expecting (at some stage:)) some completion sert
from sparks via me.

(NB seems we have two Jim's on the thread which could cause some
confusion)

cheers
Jim OP

Part P paperwork
 

jim wibbled:


seems you have probly covered most angles most helpfully but to answer
the questions -

-job was a full plans approval and yes BCO knows about wiring (quite a
bit done) and is expecting (at some stage:)) some completion sert
from sparks via me.

(NB seems we have two Jim's on the thread which could cause some
confusion)

OK Jim OP ;-

OK, the BCO knows about it and your sign-off depends on this as well as all
the other bits being done to his satisfaction.

He's going to want either paperwork from the professional scheme operator or
an EIC.

You could now safely do these two suggestions in parallel:

a) Ring the scheme operator (probably the NICEIC but could be one of half a
dozen people) and ask them if they can sort it out as it was one of their
members going bust.

b) Go and see the BCO and explain the problem. Doubt it's the first time
he's come across this problem in the last few months.

There are no other options I can see unless you don't want your completion
certificate on the whole lot.

Sorry - it's a bit of a pain, and it might cost you a couple of hundred more
(or perhaps you didn't pay the sparky up to the final amount before he went
bust?)

Anyway, if you have full plans, you won't AFAICS be needing to regularise
this, just convince the BCO that the electrics are safe, which is usually
with an EIC filled out by a competant (BCO's prefer qualified) person.

Cheers

Tim

Part P paperwork
 

On 31 July, 10:53, Tim S wrote:
jim wibbled:

seems you have probly covered most angles most helpfully but to answer
the questions -

-job was a full plans approval and yes BCO knows about wiring (quite a
bit done) and is expecting (at some stage:)) some completion sert
from sparks via me.

(NB seems we have two Jim's on the thread which could cause some
confusion)

OK Jim OP ;-

OK, the BCO knows about it and your sign-off depends on this as well as all
the other bits being done to his satisfaction.

He's going to want either paperwork from the professional scheme operator or
an EIC.

You could now safely do these two suggestions in parallel:

a) Ring the scheme operator (probably the NICEIC but could be one of half a
dozen people) and ask them if they can sort it out as it was one of their
members going bust.

b) Go and see the BCO and explain the problem. Doubt it's the first time
he's come across this problem in the last few months.

There are no other options I can see unless you don't want your completion
certificate on the whole lot.

Sorry - it's a bit of a pain, and it might cost you a couple of hundred more
(or perhaps you didn't pay the sparky up to the final amount before he went
bust?)

Anyway, if you have full plans, you won't AFAICS be needing to regularise
this, just convince the BCO that the electrics are safe, which is usually
with an EIC filled out by a competant (BCO's prefer qualified) person.

Cheers

Tim

OK got it.
many thanks

Jim OP

Part P paperwork
 

"jim" wrote in message
...
On 30 July, 13:31, Tim S wrote:
jim wibbled:

BTW what happens if i don't get the certs to give to the BCO? (or
until a reasonable time (years) has passed before forking out for
another PIR) - does the BCO file stay alive or can they pressure me to
sort it somehow?

Could you clarify of the job was on a Building notice, or you were
expecting
self-cerification via NICEIC etc.

Doe teh BCO know about the wiring work?

Then I can answer your question more accurately :)

seems you have probly covered most angles most helpfully but to answer
the questions -

-job was a full plans approval and yes BCO knows about wiring (quite a
bit done) and is expecting (at some stage:)) some completion sert
from sparks via me.

(NB seems we have two Jim's on the thread which could cause some
confusion)

cheers
Jim OP

Hi Jim

I do not know which part P scam the contractor was registered with in your
case.

However the NICIEC will allow another NICEIC contractor to complete the work
and issue certificates in your situation.

You will receive the certificates not the BCO. The BCO will either look at
the certificates when he signs the job off or of accept a photocopy of them.
All part P NICIEC jobs are registered on line and I do believe that the BCO
will be notified via that on line registration.

HTH

Adam

Part P paperwork
 

On 31 July, 17:19, "ARWadsworth"
wrote:
"jim" wrote in message

...



On 30 July, 13:31, Tim S wrote:
jim wibbled:

BTW what happens if i don't get the certs to give to the BCO? (or
until a reasonable time (years) has passed before forking out for
another PIR) - does the BCO file stay alive or can they pressure me to
sort it somehow?

Could you clarify of the job was on a Building notice, or you were
expecting
self-cerification via NICEIC etc.

Doe teh BCO know about the wiring work?

Then I can answer your question more accurately :)

seems you have probly covered most angles most helpfully but to answer
the questions -

-job was a full plans approval and yes BCO knows about wiring (quite a
bit done) and is expecting (at some stage:)) some completion sert
from sparks via me.

(NB seems we have two Jim's on the thread which could cause some
confusion)

cheers
Jim OP

Hi Jim

I do not know which part P scam the contractor was registered with in your
case.

However the NICIEC will allow another NICEIC contractor to complete the work
and issue certificates in your situation.

You will receive the certificates not the BCO. The BCO will either look at
the certificates when he signs the job off or of accept a photocopy of them.
All part P NICIEC jobs are registered on line and I do believe that the BCO
will be notified via that on line registration.

HTH

Adam

hi adam

when you say:-
All part P NICIEC jobs are registered on line and I do believe that the BCO
will be notified via that on line registration.

BCO will be notified of what exactly? - that the job has started? for
sure he should already know - having visited many times...

thanks for the tip about NICEIC I hope i'll be able to sort something
soon.

Jim

Part P paperwork
 

jim wibbled:


hi adam

when you say:-
All part P NICIEC jobs are registered on line and I do believe that the
BCO will be notified via that on line registration.

BCO will be notified of what exactly? - that the job has started? for
sure he should already know - having visited many times...

The completion being satisfactory.

thanks for the tip about NICEIC I hope i'll be able to sort something
soon.

Do you actually know which scheme (professional body) he was a member of?

If not, the NICEIC is the most likely - ring them and give the bloke's name
and town - they'll soon confirm. If not, repeat with ELECSA and NAPIT.
There are others, but the above are the more likely...

All these companies are or should be "public friendly" to you - they claim
to have your interests at heart (*cough*).

http://niceic.org.uk/en/contactus/se...asp?SECTION=54

http://www.napit.org.uk/contact.asp

http://www.elecsa.org.uk/contact_elecsa.aspx

HTH

Tim

Part P paperwork
 

"Tim S" wrote in message
.. .
jim wibbled:


hi adam

when you say:-
All part P NICIEC jobs are registered on line and I do believe that the
BCO will be notified via that on line registration.

BCO will be notified of what exactly? - that the job has started? for
sure he should already know - having visited many times...

The completion being satisfactory.

thanks for the tip about NICEIC I hope i'll be able to sort something
soon.

Do you actually know which scheme (professional body) he was a member of?

If not, the NICEIC is the most likely - ring them and give the bloke's
name
and town - they'll soon confirm. If not, repeat with ELECSA and NAPIT.
There are others, but the above are the more likely...

All these companies are or should be "public friendly" to you - they claim
to have your interests at heart (*cough*).

http://niceic.org.uk/en/contactus/se...asp?SECTION=54

http://www.napit.org.uk/contact.asp

http://www.elecsa.org.uk/contact_elecsa.aspx

HTH

Tim

As Tim says it for me then thanks Tim :-)

Yes jobs are notified on completion.

Adam

Part P paperwork
 

On Thu, 30 Jul 2009 05:21:26 -0700 (PDT), a certain chimpanzee,
RobertL randomly hit the keyboard and
produced:

As a matter of interest, does the contractor supply the BC
certification documents to the homeowner or directly to building
control?

If the contractor is a member of a Competent Persons scheme, they
notify their organisation (NICEIC, etc.), and that organisation
notifies BC electronically afterwards (usually a few weeks later).
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have you strayed?"

Part P paperwork
 

On Thu, 30 Jul 2009 13:58:02 +0100, a certain chimpanzee, Tim S
randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

As far as you go - in a couple of years there's nothing the LABC can do to
you due to limitations of law, and in this case they are not likely to
attempt a prosecution... It tends to be bent and dangerous tradesmen that
they spend time persuing, not householders.

Technically (and Hugo may give a more informed opinion as he is a BCO) I
think you'd need to regularise this as your main option with the LABC,
which is typically going to cost 100-150 quid (very dependant on LABC)
*and* they may want you to produce an EIC at your expense, so that's
another 150-300 for a PIR.

Tim, your up-thread post had it spot-on as to what the OP should do.

If the electrics were part of the original application (eg, a kitchen
extension which will include notifiable electrical work), then the
application stays 'live' until all the Requirements are met (including
Part P). The BCO should have been told before the work started if the
work was being done by a member of a Competent Persons Scheme. If not
they should have been inspecting the electrical installation
themselves, and also have had an installation certificate from the
qualified electrician on completion.

If the work is not part of the application (eg, where the building
work is a lounge extension, but you're also replacing a consumer unit
at the same time), then the B/Regs application can be signed off
without an electrical installation certificate. The BCO has noticed
the notifiable works, and would be expecting to see either a CPS
notice from one of the bodies later if you haven't submitted a
Building Notice to the LA before the work started. He may then take
prosecution action, but probably won't unless there's something
significantly wrong or dangerous, within 2 years of the offence taking
place or 6 months of the discovery of the offence (whichever comes
first).

A periodic inspection report is not usually acceptable in lieu of any
inspection or certification of the work.
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have you strayed?"