Another one to play with:


There are 2 main types of '''Rivet'''
* Solid metal rivet, fitted by hammering
* blind hollow rivet

Most rivets used in DIY are the latter type. They're inserted using a
riveter. Access is only needed to one side of the hole.

==Blind rivets==
Riveters
* plier type, most common, squeeze the handles
* lazy tongue, push/pull action

Material
* Most rivets are aluminium
* Steel rivets are also available, but (why_not_used_much)

Size
* various widths
* asstd lengths, mainly standard and long
* assortment packs are popular

Head types
* lost head - the head comes away
* the other one, leaves no hole

Removal:
* drill the rivet
* or cut the head off with flush cutting wirecutters


==Solid rivets==
Solid rivets are inserted into the hole and hammered flat, with the
workpiece resting on an anvil or similar. This is a much slower
process than blind riveting, and requires access to both sides of the
hole. The method has been in use for many centuries. These rivets are
usually copper or steel.

The final appearance is a flat disc or a domed head.


==See Also==
* [[Special:Allpages|Wiki Contents]]
* [[Special:Categories|Wiki Subject Categories]]



[[Category:Metal]]
[[Category:Fixings]]


NT

NT coughed up some electrons that declared:


==Solid rivets==
Solid rivets are inserted into the hole and hammered flat, with the
workpiece resting on an anvil or similar. This is a much slower
process than blind riveting, and requires access to both sides of the
hole. The method has been in use for many centuries. These rivets are
usually copper or steel.

The final appearance is a flat disc or a domed head.

And countersunk - I know, we did steel riveting at school in metalwork

Cheers

Tim

Tim S wrote:
NT coughed up some electrons that declared:


==Solid rivets==
Solid rivets are inserted into the hole and hammered flat, with the
workpiece resting on an anvil or similar. This is a much slower
process than blind riveting, and requires access to both sides of the
hole. The method has been in use for many centuries. These rivets are
usually copper or steel.

The final appearance is a flat disc or a domed head.

And countersunk - I know, we did steel riveting at school in metalwork

Cheers

Tim

These rivets can be used cold, using copper, aluminium or steel, or
heated, using steel, as was usual in heavy-duty work such as traditional
ship-building. I am not sure how much it is still used. Tim's point is a
good one about countersinking. Done this way it is possible to finish
the surface, for example using a brushed or polished finish, so the
countersunk head is invisible. Did you make a bottle opener Tim? It was
a standard piece when it was still called metalwork in schools. Not PC
perhaps now? Perhaps a bit of info could be added about how
countersinking is done?

Peter Scott

In article
,
NT wrote:
Solid rivets are inserted into the hole and hammered flat, with the
workpiece resting on an anvil or similar. This is a much slower
process than blind riveting, and requires access to both sides of the
hole. The method has been in use for many centuries. These rivets are
usually copper or steel.

The final appearance is a flat disc or a domed head.

Can be countersunk both ends too.

It's worth mentioning that a special tool is best for forming the domed
head with small rivets - think it's called a 'set'. Also has a hole in it
the size of the rivet to assist in getting both parts of the work mating
properly - if this is not done it effects the strength of the joint, as
well as looking unsightly.

--
*Sorry, I don't date outside my species.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:44:34 -0700, NT wrote:

Another one to play with:


There are 2 main types of '''Rivet''' * Solid metal rivet, fitted by
hammering * blind hollow rivet

Most rivets used in DIY are the latter type. They're inserted using a
riveter. Access is only needed to one side of the hole.

==Blind rivets==
Riveters
* plier type, most common, squeeze the handles * lazy tongue, push/pull
action

Material
* Most rivets are aluminium
* Steel rivets are also available, but (why_not_used_much)

Size
* various widths
* asstd lengths, mainly standard and long * assortment packs are popular

Head types
* lost head - the head comes away
* the other one, leaves no hole

Removal:
* drill the rivet
* or cut the head off with flush cutting wirecutters


==Solid rivets==
Solid rivets are inserted into the hole and hammered flat, with the
workpiece resting on an anvil or similar. This is a much slower process
than blind riveting, and requires access to both sides of the hole. The
method has been in use for many centuries. These rivets are usually copper
or steel.

The final appearance is a flat disc or a domed head.


==See Also==
* [[Special:Allpages|Wiki Contents]]
* [[Special:Categories|Wiki Subject Categories]]



[[Category:Metal]]
[[Category:Fixings]]


NT
=========================================

Rivets are used with other materials, most commonly bifurcate rivets for
leather goods.

Cic.

--
==========================================
Using Ubuntu Linux
Windows shown the door
==========================================

On Jun 15, 3:44*am, NT wrote:
Another one to play with:

OK, after feedback here's version 2 for comment. Taught me a thing or
2.


The main types of '''Rivet''':
* Solid metal rivet
* blind hollow rivet
* bifurcate rivet
* eyelet


==Blind rivets==
Most rivets used for DIY are [http://www.mingrong.com.tw/blind-
ribet.htm blind rivets]. These rivets are set with a riveter. Access
is only needed to one side of the hole.

Riveter types
* plier type, most common, squeeze the handles
* lazy tongue, push/pull action

Material
* Most rivets are aluminium
* Steel rivets are also available, but (why_not_used_much)

Size
* various widths
* asstd lengths, mainly standard and long
* assortment packs are popular

Head types
* lost head - the head comes away
* the other one, leaves no hole

Removal:
* drill the rivet
* or cut the head off with flush cutting wirecutters


==Solid rivets==
Solid rivets are inserted into the hole and hammered flat, with the
workpiece resting on an anvil or similar. This is a much slower
process than blind riveting, and requires access to both sides of the
hole. The method has been in use for many centuries.

These rivets are usually copper, steel or aluminium. Steel rivets are
often worked hot.

The final appearance is a flat disc, a domed head or countersunk. Its
possible to produce a flush finish in thick sheet with a countersunk
rivet.

A tool is best used for forming the domed head with small rivets -
think it's called a 'set'. Also has a hole in it the size of the rivet
to assist in getting both parts of the work mating properly - if this
is not done it affects the strength of the joint, as well as looking
unsightly.


==Bifurcate rivets==
These split leg rivets are used to fix D rings to board, for leather
goods etc.

After insertion the legs are spread with a screwdriver, and the whole
turned over and hammered to flatten the legs.


==Eyelets==
Eyelets are a type of rivet consisting of 2 parts, one of which splays
out over the other in use. They're widely used with leather goods,
clothing, tarpaulins, sails, card & so on. They're set with small
rivetting pliers.

Riveters:
* Some riveting pliers also double as a hole punch, and have a wheel
with various sizes of hole punch and rivet setter.
* more basic ones are just 2 little metal blocks attached to a tweezer-
like frame to keep them aligned. These tools are operated with large
pliers or a hammer.


==See Also==
* [[Special:Allpages|Wiki Contents]]
* [[Special:Categories|Wiki Subject Categories]]
* [[Bolt|Chicago bolt]]
* [http://www.hohm.com/hrdwr_pic/jean2.JPG Jean rivets]]
* [[http://www.mingrong.com.tw/rivet.htm other rivets not used in DIY]



[[Category:Metal]]
[[Category:Fixings]]


NT

On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 10:33:47 -0700 (PDT), NT had
this to say:

On Jun 15, 3:44*am, NT wrote:
Another one to play with:

OK, after feedback here's version 2 for comment. Taught me a thing or
2.


The main types of '''Rivet''':
* Solid metal rivet
* blind hollow rivet
* bifurcate rivet
* eyelet


==Blind rivets==
Most rivets used for DIY are [http://www.mingrong.com.tw/blind-
ribet.htm blind rivets]. These rivets are set with a riveter. Access
is only needed to one side of the hole.

Riveter types
* plier type, most common, squeeze the handles
* lazy tongue, push/pull action
~~~~~~

tongs !

--
Frank Erskine

On Jun 15, 6:45*pm, Frank Erskine
wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 10:33:47 -0700 (PDT), NT had

==Blind rivets==
Most rivets used for DIY are [http://www.mingrong.com.tw/blind-
ribet.htm blind rivets]. These rivets are set with a riveter. Access
is only needed to one side of the hole.

Riveter types
* plier type, most common, squeeze the handles
* lazy tongue, push/pull action

* * * * ~~~~~~

tongs !

I've not seen those used with blind rivets. How do they work?


NT

On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:21:40 -0700 (PDT), NT had
this to say:

On Jun 15, 6:45*pm, Frank Erskine
wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 10:33:47 -0700 (PDT), NT had

==Blind rivets==
Most rivets used for DIY are [http://www.mingrong.com.tw/blind-
ribet.htm blind rivets]. These rivets are set with a riveter. Access
is only needed to one side of the hole.

Riveter types
* plier type, most common, squeeze the handles
* lazy tongue, push/pull action

* * * * ~~~~~~

tongs !

I've not seen those used with blind rivets. How do they work?

Lazy tongs, not lazy tongues...

--
Frank Erskine

Frank Erskine wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 10:33:47 -0700 (PDT), NT had
this to say:

On Jun 15, 3:44 am, NT wrote:
Another one to play with:

OK, after feedback here's version 2 for comment. Taught me a thing or
2.


The main types of '''Rivet''':
* Solid metal rivet
* blind hollow rivet
* bifurcate rivet
* eyelet


==Blind rivets==
Most rivets used for DIY are [http://www.mingrong.com.tw/blind-
ribet.htm blind rivets]. These rivets are set with a riveter. Access
is only needed to one side of the hole.

Riveter types
* plier type, most common, squeeze the handles
* lazy tongue, push/pull action
~~~~~~

tongs !

You're welcome.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

NT wrote:
Another one to play with:


There are 2 main types of '''Rivet'''
* Solid metal rivet, fitted by hammering
* blind hollow rivet

Most rivets used in DIY are the latter type. They're inserted using a
riveter. Access is only needed to one side of the hole.

==Blind rivets==
Riveters
* plier type, most common, squeeze the handles
* lazy tongue, push/pull action

Material
* Most rivets are aluminium
* Steel rivets are also available, but (why_not_used_much)

Steel rivets are used extensively in the aerospace industry and are
usually mono monometal and coated with cadmium plate. Mono metal so as
not to confuse the compass and the coationg to prevent difering metal
corrosion.

Size
* various widths
* asstd lengths, mainly standard and long
* assortment packs are popular

Rivets are sized in metric values, but are the old imperial diameters
due, I think, to the very strong opposition to metric by the USA.
So a 2.4 mm is really 3/32" nds, a 3.2 mm is a 1/8 th and so on up to
quarter inch (these are usually pulled by a pneumatic gun, as the rivet
goes with a big bang when the stem snaps.)
The stems come in two styles. The first is a break head where the rivet
retains the bulbous end that swells the tail and the other type is known
as break head, where the bulbous bit snaps off and has to be removed to
prvent vobration damage to an enclosed area.

Head types
* lost head - the head comes away
* the other one, leaves no hole

Is that what I have just described above?

There are a further 2 types of steel and aluminium rivet that are set
from just one side.
The first is called a Chobert rivet and is set with a re usable mandrel
being pulled through it and a solid pin can be hammered into it, to
retain the swolen shape.
The second type is called an Avdel rivet, which like the pop rivet comes
its own mandrel. These two types, the average DIY'er will not come into
contact with because of the specialised setting tools required.

Removal:
* drill the rivet
* or cut the head off with flush cutting wirecutters


==Solid rivets==
Solid rivets are inserted into the hole and hammered flat, with the
workpiece resting on an anvil or similar. This is a much slower
process than blind riveting, and requires access to both sides of the
hole. The method has been in use for many centuries. These rivets are
usually copper or steel.

The final appearance is a flat disc or a domed head.


==See Also==
* [[Special:Allpages|Wiki Contents]]
* [[Special:Categories|Wiki Subject Categories]]



[[Category:Metal]]
[[Category:Fixings]]


NT

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
NT wrote:
Solid rivets are inserted into the hole and hammered flat, with the
workpiece resting on an anvil or similar. This is a much slower
process than blind riveting, and requires access to both sides of the
hole. The method has been in use for many centuries. These rivets are
usually copper or steel.

The final appearance is a flat disc or a domed head.

Can be countersunk both ends too.

If you do this, make one side a normal depth countersink and then other
side between a half to three quarters deep.

It's worth mentioning that a special tool is best for forming the domed
head with small rivets - think it's called a 'set'. Also has a hole in it
the size of the rivet to assist in getting both parts of the work mating
properly - if this is not done it effects the strength of the joint, as
well as looking unsightly.

The ones that I have come across and used were in pairs for each
diameter, as you say, one had a hole to tighten the gap between the 2
intems to be rivetted and the other, if you got the total rivet length
right would make the hammered side a nice round dome

Talking about domes, the heads of rivets come in 3 shapes.

First is a snap head which is almost a half ball and the second one has
a mushroom shaped head. The countersink rivets come in all sorts of
angles from 60 to 120 degree angles and can have a crown on that can be
made flat after the rivet has been set.

Dave

On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 21:27:44 +0100, Dave wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
NT wrote:
Solid rivets are inserted into the hole and hammered flat, with the
workpiece resting on an anvil or similar. This is a much slower process
than blind riveting, and requires access to both sides of the hole. The
method has been in use for many centuries. These rivets are usually
copper or steel.

The final appearance is a flat disc or a domed head.

Can be countersunk both ends too.

If you do this, make one side a normal depth countersink and then other
side between a half to three quarters deep.

It's worth mentioning that a special tool is best for forming the domed
head with small rivets - think it's called a 'set'. Also has a hole in
it the size of the rivet to assist in getting both parts of the work
mating properly - if this is not done it effects the strength of the
joint, as well as looking unsightly.

The ones that I have come across and used were in pairs for each diameter,
as you say, one had a hole to tighten the gap between the 2 intems to be
rivetted and the other, if you got the total rivet length right would make
the hammered side a nice round dome

-----------------------------------------

I've got one somewhere (bought years ago for a special job) which is a
one-piece tool. One end, roughly oval shaped, has two holes side by side.
One is a deep hole to go over the rivet shank for 'drawing up' and the
other shallow domed hole is for the actual setting of the rivet. It's only
useful over a narrow range of rivet sizes limited by the diameter of the
deeper hole.

-----------------------------------------

Talking about domes, the heads of rivets come in 3 shapes.

First is a snap head which is almost a half ball and the second one has
a mushroom shaped head. The countersink rivets come in all sorts of
angles from 60 to 120 degree angles and can have a crown on that can be
made flat after the rivet has been set.

Dave

--
==========================================
Using Ubuntu Linux
Windows shown the door
==========================================

Peter Scott wrote:
Tim S wrote:

And countersunk - I know, we did steel riveting at school in
metalwork

Did you make a bottle opener Tim? It was a standard piece when it was
still called metalwork in schools. Not PC perhaps now?

I'm young enough that it had shifted its name several times and ended up
as "design and technology: resistant materials technology" and had to
have a syllabus structure largely common with other "D&T" things like
cooking ("edible materials technology"?) that my school didn't do.

Still had the same old teachers, though, teaching us to use the lathes
and milling machine, and we did do both domed and countersunk rivets.

Pete

On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:44:34 -0700 (PDT), NT wrote:

Another one to play with:


There are 2 main types of '''Rivet'''
* Solid metal rivet, fitted by hammering
* blind hollow rivet

There's also a type that I have used in the past that have a domed head and
a shank with a grooved twist (like externally rifled solid rivet) that are
simply hammered into an accurately sized hole through the two pieces of
metal. The end is not hammered over.

SteveW

On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 22:44:00 +0100, Pete Verdon wrote:

Peter Scott wrote:
Tim S wrote:

And countersunk - I know, we did steel riveting at school in
metalwork

Did you make a bottle opener Tim? It was a standard piece when it was
still called metalwork in schools. Not PC perhaps now?

I'm young enough that it had shifted its name several times and ended up
as "design and technology: resistant materials technology" and had to
have a syllabus structure largely common with other "D&T" things like
cooking ("edible materials technology"?) that my school didn't do.

Still had the same old teachers, though, teaching us to use the lathes
and milling machine, and we did do both domed and countersunk rivets.

Pete

Our school did Woodwork, Metalwork and EWTP (Engineering Workshop Theory
and Practice) as separate subjects - in EWTP we designed, drew and made
things like toolmaker's clamps and in my case, an adjustable stand for a
dial test indicator that could be used on a surface plate or with an
extension section bolted on, on my father's lathe.

SteveW

Steve Walker wrote:
On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:44:34 -0700 (PDT), NT wrote:

Another one to play with:


There are 2 main types of '''Rivet'''
* Solid metal rivet, fitted by hammering
* blind hollow rivet

There's also a type that I have used in the past that have a domed head and
a shank with a grooved twist (like externally rifled solid rivet) that are
simply hammered into an accurately sized hole through the two pieces of
metal. The end is not hammered over.

Yes, the last time I remember seeing them must have been in 1975 and I
can't for the life of me remember what they were callled. Instinct says
that they were not described as a rivet, but it's been a long time.

Dave

Steve Walker wrote:
On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:44:34 -0700 (PDT), NT wrote:

Another one to play with:


There are 2 main types of '''Rivet'''
* Solid metal rivet, fitted by hammering
* blind hollow rivet

There's also a type that I have used in the past that have a domed head and
a shank with a grooved twist (like externally rifled solid rivet) that are
simply hammered into an accurately sized hole through the two pieces of
metal. The end is not hammered over.

Just did a google for hammer drive screws and came up with

http://www.toolfastdirect.co.uk/acat...ound_Head.html

Dave

On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 23:37:15 +0100, Dave wrote:

Steve Walker wrote:
On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:44:34 -0700 (PDT), NT wrote:

Another one to play with:


There are 2 main types of '''Rivet'''
* Solid metal rivet, fitted by hammering
* blind hollow rivet

There's also a type that I have used in the past that have a domed head and
a shank with a grooved twist (like externally rifled solid rivet) that are
simply hammered into an accurately sized hole through the two pieces of
metal. The end is not hammered over.

Just did a google for hammer drive screws and came up with

http://www.toolfastdirect.co.uk/acat...ound_Head.html

Dave

Ah, that looks familiar. Glad you remembered, it was in the early eighties
that I used them - around the smokebox of a 5" gauge Simplex loco that I
was building with my father. It's a pity we never finished it - we got it
running on compressed air, but didn't trust our silver soldering skills and
couldn't afford to buy a ready-made boiler. I did suggest that now he's
retired he should buy a boiler and get it finished for my kids, as we've
got a handy 2200 foot track (that I helped build) less than half a mile
away from here.

SteveW

Steve Walker wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 23:37:15 +0100, Dave wrote:

Steve Walker wrote:
On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:44:34 -0700 (PDT), NT wrote:

Another one to play with:


There are 2 main types of '''Rivet'''
* Solid metal rivet, fitted by hammering
* blind hollow rivet
There's also a type that I have used in the past that have a domed head and
a shank with a grooved twist (like externally rifled solid rivet) that are
simply hammered into an accurately sized hole through the two pieces of
metal. The end is not hammered over.
Just did a google for hammer drive screws and came up with

http://www.toolfastdirect.co.uk/acat...ound_Head.html
Dave

Ah, that looks familiar. Glad you remembered, it was in the early eighties
that I used them - around the smokebox of a 5" gauge Simplex loco that I
was building with my father. It's a pity we never finished it - we got it
running on compressed air, but didn't trust our silver soldering skills and
couldn't afford to buy a ready-made boiler. I did suggest that now he's
retired he should buy a boiler and get it finished for my kids, as we've
got a handy 2200 foot track (that I helped build) less than half a mile
away from here.

I would urge you to get the original boiler up and running. G Dad will
impress his g children all that much more. If you fear the boiler may
explode, get some good quality hard plastic between the engine and
observers, or take them back quite some way and just protect the engineer.

2200 feet of track? What is the first 2 of your postcode? I have never
heard of that much track being available.

Dave

In article ,
Steve Walker wrote:
Our school did Woodwork, Metalwork and EWTP (Engineering Workshop Theory
and Practice) as separate subjects - in EWTP we designed, drew and made
things like toolmaker's clamps and in my case, an adjustable stand for a
dial test indicator that could be used on a surface plate or with an
extension section bolted on, on my father's lathe.

Most decent projects combined learning new skills with hopefully a useful
object at the end. One of ours was a dustpan - so all the tinplate skills.
My mother was still using it some 40 years later. ;-)

--
*Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember NT saying
something like:

Another one to play with:


There are 2 main types of '''Rivet'''
* Solid metal rivet, fitted by hammering
* blind hollow rivet

What about the Golden Rivet?

On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 00:18:03 +0100, Dave wrote:

Steve Walker wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 23:37:15 +0100, Dave wrote:

Steve Walker wrote:
On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:44:34 -0700 (PDT), NT wrote:

Another one to play with:


There are 2 main types of '''Rivet'''
* Solid metal rivet, fitted by hammering
* blind hollow rivet
There's also a type that I have used in the past that have a domed head and
a shank with a grooved twist (like externally rifled solid rivet) that are
simply hammered into an accurately sized hole through the two pieces of
metal. The end is not hammered over.
Just did a google for hammer drive screws and came up with

http://www.toolfastdirect.co.uk/acat...ound_Head.html
Dave

Ah, that looks familiar. Glad you remembered, it was in the early eighties
that I used them - around the smokebox of a 5" gauge Simplex loco that I
was building with my father. It's a pity we never finished it - we got it
running on compressed air, but didn't trust our silver soldering skills and
couldn't afford to buy a ready-made boiler. I did suggest that now he's
retired he should buy a boiler and get it finished for my kids, as we've
got a handy 2200 foot track (that I helped build) less than half a mile
away from here.

I would urge you to get the original boiler up and running. G Dad will
impress his g children all that much more. If you fear the boiler may
explode, get some good quality hard plastic between the engine and
observers, or take them back quite some way and just protect the engineer.

2200 feet of track? What is the first 2 of your postcode? I have never
heard of that much track being available.

Dave

M41

Take a look at http://www.udmes.co.uk/

The track is dual gauge 3-1/2" and 5", extending round most of the park,
with a second 500 feet track for those that don't want to run passenger
trains. Until the larger track was built in the early '80s there used to be
two 500 feet tracks. It's elevated, so an easy driving position, but of
course that means traversers rather than points - when they still had the
two 500 feet tracks, they were very basic and built using the bases of
barbers chairs, which if jacked high enough would lift above the vertical
guides and allow the track section to be spun right round to reverse a
loco. In those days they had a good supply of Welsh steam coal, but these
days they can only get hold of filthy stuff that covers everyone.

SteveW

Dave wrote:

There are a further 2 types of steel and aluminium rivet that are set
from just one side.
The first is called a Chobert rivet and is set with a re usable mandrel
being pulled through it and a solid pin can be hammered into it, to
retain the swolen shape.
The second type is called an Avdel rivet, which like the pop rivet comes
its own mandrel. These two types, the average DIY'er will not come into
contact with because of the specialised setting tools required.

Aswering my own post, I propose you do not add these to the wiki. As
they are a bit specialised.

Dave

Steve Walker wrote:

M41

Take a look at http://www.udmes.co.uk/

The track is dual gauge 3-1/2" and 5", extending round most of the park,
with a second 500 feet track for those that don't want to run passenger
trains. Until the larger track was built in the early '80s there used to be
two 500 feet tracks. It's elevated, so an easy driving position, but of
course that means traversers rather than points - when they still had the
two 500 feet tracks, they were very basic and built using the bases of
barbers chairs, which if jacked high enough would lift above the vertical
guides and allow the track section to be spun right round to reverse a
loco. In those days they had a good supply of Welsh steam coal, but these
days they can only get hold of filthy stuff that covers everyone.

The M41 was a surprise, I suspected it would be a lot further South.

I don't recognise it, but I was quite young when I was taken to
exebitions and steam rallies. My brother was into model engineering and
he used to take me around with him, but he is 11 years older than me, I
never knew where we went.

Dave

On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 21:02:18 +0100, Dave wrote:

Steve Walker wrote:

M41

Take a look at http://www.udmes.co.uk/

The track is dual gauge 3-1/2" and 5", extending round most of the park,
with a second 500 feet track for those that don't want to run passenger
trains. Until the larger track was built in the early '80s there used to be
two 500 feet tracks. It's elevated, so an easy driving position, but of
course that means traversers rather than points - when they still had the
two 500 feet tracks, they were very basic and built using the bases of
barbers chairs, which if jacked high enough would lift above the vertical
guides and allow the track section to be spun right round to reverse a
loco. In those days they had a good supply of Welsh steam coal, but these
days they can only get hold of filthy stuff that covers everyone.

The M41 was a surprise, I suspected it would be a lot further South.

I don't recognise it, but I was quite young when I was taken to
exebitions and steam rallies. My brother was into model engineering and
he used to take me around with him, but he is 11 years older than me, I
never knew where we went.

Dave

To me it's always been just our local park (I lived only half a mile
further away when I was still at my parents) - typical small park really,
except for the railway. They do a steam fair there on the first May bank
holiday, with various traction engines and vintage vehicles - which tend to
dig holes in the road outside with their tow hitches, as the bridge over
the railway into the park is so steep!

As you say you don't recognise it, I assume that you were/are from
somewhere around the region.

SteveW

Steve Walker wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 21:02:18 +0100, Dave wrote:

Steve Walker wrote:

M41

Take a look at http://www.udmes.co.uk/

The track is dual gauge 3-1/2" and 5", extending round most of the park,
with a second 500 feet track for those that don't want to run passenger
trains. Until the larger track was built in the early '80s there used to be
two 500 feet tracks. It's elevated, so an easy driving position, but of
course that means traversers rather than points - when they still had the
two 500 feet tracks, they were very basic and built using the bases of
barbers chairs, which if jacked high enough would lift above the vertical
guides and allow the track section to be spun right round to reverse a
loco. In those days they had a good supply of Welsh steam coal, but these
days they can only get hold of filthy stuff that covers everyone.
The M41 was a surprise, I suspected it would be a lot further South.

I don't recognise it, but I was quite young when I was taken to
exebitions and steam rallies. My brother was into model engineering and
he used to take me around with him, but he is 11 years older than me, I
never knew where we went.

Dave

To me it's always been just our local park (I lived only half a mile
further away when I was still at my parents) - typical small park really,
except for the railway. They do a steam fair there on the first May bank
holiday, with various traction engines and vintage vehicles - which tend to
dig holes in the road outside with their tow hitches, as the bridge over
the railway into the park is so steep!

As you say you don't recognise it, I assume that you were/are from
somewhere around the region.

Yes, from 1946 until 1978, I lived just up the road in Oldham. I forgot
to mention that in my last post. I'm in Preston, Lancs now.

Dave

On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 10:33:47 -0700 (PDT), in uk.d-i-y NT
wrote:

On Jun 15, 3:44*am, NT wrote:
Another one to play with:

OK, after feedback here's version 2 for comment. Taught me a thing or
2.




Head types
* lost head - the head comes away
* the other one, leaves no hole

What's this? Is it to just fill spurious holes? cant see how it holds
pars together.


==Solid rivets==
Solid rivets are inserted into the hole and hammered flat, with the
workpiece resting on an anvil or similar. This is a much slower
process than blind riveting, and requires access to both sides of the
hole. The method has been in use for many centuries.

Yikes... not if you want a decent joint. Hammering won't pull the two
parts together, doing this will usually result in a loose joint. You
should use a pair of clamps either side of the rivet location to firmly
clamp the parts together. The rivet expands diameterwise as you hit it,
including the bit in the small gap between unclamped parts. That
expanded disk will prevent any subsequent attempts to squeeze the parts
together.

Cleanliness is important as grit trapped between the parts will weaken
the joint.

If you are doing serious riveting where a number of rivets are used
along a joint line, you can get* neat little clamps that are inserted
through each hole (needing access from one side only) to pull the job
together. Then one is removed at a time and a replaced with a rivet.

* as used in aircraft industry. Don't know where DIYers get them, but I
have a few.

Also you don't rest on an anvil as the a head has to be formed on both
sides, you use a 'set' held in the vice for the dome head and another
set to form a dome on the tail (you hammer on the tail not the dome
end).

Rivet length: Correct length is important as the tail needs to be just
the volume needed to form the head.

Head types
Countersunk heads should be used for the countersinking described
earlier.

These rivets are usually copper, steel or aluminium. Steel rivets are
often worked hot....

..... because they shrink on cooling to achieve a tighter joint.

The final appearance is a flat disc, a domed head or countersunk. Its
possible to produce a flush finish in thick sheet with a countersunk
rivet.

I believe this is only possible if you use csk head rivets. It is the
norm for aircraft ally skin fabrication.

A tool is best used for forming the domed head with small rivets -
think it's called a 'set'. Also has a hole in it the size of the rivet
to assist in getting both parts of the work mating properly - if this
is not done it affects the strength of the joint, as well as looking
unsightly.

Essential to use correct set to match the rivet head if you want an
engineering joint, ie different ones for different rivet diameters.

Of course for a DIY job, just hammering on the tail may be good enough!

--
Phil

Phil Addison wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 10:33:47 -0700 (PDT), in uk.d-i-y NT
wrote:

On Jun 15, 3:44 am, NT wrote:
Another one to play with:
OK, after feedback here's version 2 for comment. Taught me a thing or
2.



Head types
* lost head - the head comes away
* the other one, leaves no hole

What's this? Is it to just fill spurious holes? cant see how it holds
pars together.

I was confused with this in the original post until just after I wrote
my explanation of what it means.

Take any rivet and it will have a pre formed head. In the case of pop
rivets, it will have a mandrill that protrudes through the head and the
other end of the mandrill will have a bulb type shape. This end of the
rivet is known as the tail.
The mandills come in 2 types, break stem and break head (not to be
confused with the true head of the rivet that has the pre formed shape.
See my original post regards how the two types work.

==Solid rivets==
Solid rivets are inserted into the hole and hammered flat, with the
workpiece resting on an anvil or similar. This is a much slower
process than blind riveting, and requires access to both sides of the
hole. The method has been in use for many centuries.

Yikes... not if you want a decent joint. Hammering won't pull the two
parts together, doing this will usually result in a loose joint. You
should use a pair of clamps either side of the rivet location to firmly
clamp the parts together. The rivet expands diameterwise as you hit it,
including the bit in the small gap between unclamped parts. That
expanded disk will prevent any subsequent attempts to squeeze the parts
together.

Cleanliness is important as grit trapped between the parts will weaken
the joint.

If you are doing serious riveting where a number of rivets are used
along a joint line, you can get* neat little clamps that are inserted
through each hole (needing access from one side only) to pull the job
together. Then one is removed at a time and a replaced with a rivet.

* as used in aircraft industry. Don't know where DIYers get them, but I
have a few.

I described a way of drilling off and rivetting a job with lots of
rivets some years ago. Basically, you drill off the holes, but leave
some below size. Strip the job apart and clean up after de burring. Put
the joint back together with the interfay, if any, between the joint and
then use under sized rivets to hold the job in tight contact. Fit most
of the rivets and drill out the tack rivets, open the holes up to final
size and rivet up.

Also you don't rest on an anvil as the a head has to be formed on both
sides, you use a 'set' held in the vice for the dome head and another
set to form a dome on the tail (you hammer on the tail not the dome
end).

If you want to do this the posh way for hand rivetting :-)

Professionally, the rivets are gunned from the head side using a
pneumatic rivetter. The tails are usually left without a dome.

Rivet length: Correct length is important as the tail needs to be just
the volume needed to form the head.

As a general guide, the tail of the rivet should stick out of the back
of the job about 1.5 to 1.75 times the diam. of the rivet. Certainly no
more, this goes for pop rivets as well. This should give you a good tail.

Head types
Countersunk heads should be used for the countersinking described
earlier.

These rivets are usually copper, steel or aluminium. Steel rivets are
often worked hot....

.... because they shrink on cooling to achieve a tighter joint.

The final appearance is a flat disc, a domed head or countersunk. Its
possible to produce a flush finish in thick sheet with a countersunk
rivet.

I believe this is only possible if you use csk head rivets. It is the
norm for aircraft ally skin fabrication.

A tool is best used for forming the domed head with small rivets -
think it's called a 'set'. Also has a hole in it the size of the rivet
to assist in getting both parts of the work mating properly - if this
is not done it affects the strength of the joint, as well as looking
unsightly.

Essential to use correct set to match the rivet head if you want an
engineering joint, ie different ones for different rivet diameters.

Of course for a DIY job, just hammering on the tail may be good enough!

--
Phil

On Jun 22, 7:54*pm, Dave wrote:
Phil Addison wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 10:33:47 -0700 (PDT), in uk.d-i-y NT
wrote:
On Jun 15, 3:44 am, NT wrote:
Another one to play with:
OK, after feedback here's version 2 for comment. Taught me a thing or
2.

Head types
* lost head - the head comes away
* the other one, leaves no hole

What's this? Is it to just fill spurious holes? cant see how it holds
pars together.

I was confused with this in the original post until just after I wrote
my explanation of what it means.

Take any rivet and it will have a pre formed head. In the case of pop
rivets, it will have a mandrill that protrudes through the head and the
other end of the mandrill will have a bulb type shape. This end of the
rivet is known as the tail.
The mandills come in 2 types, break stem and break head (not to be
confused with the true head of the rivet that has the pre formed shape.
See my original post regards how the two types work.

Yup, they look much the same, but the difference is they break in 2
different places. The reslt is that with one type the whole mandrel
drops out after fitting, leaving a central hole, but with the other
type the head/tail/etc part of the mandrel is retained, so no hole to
see through. I wish I knew the correct terms for these.


NT