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Default Double glazing - internal "snap-in" removal

Hi,

Anyone know where to get a trim/bead removing tool for internally glazed
windows (uPVC snap in type).

Having had a very good search on the internet, I can't find such a thing.

I would guess it's going to be something like a bit of metal with a fairly
thin flat L shaped hook on the end of a rod.

Or is there a "proper" name of such a tool?

Ta

Tim

PS

Not totally happy with the fitting today - I'm going to pop the DG units out
and repack them, before I foam in the window...

But, nevertheless, having a trim removal tool handy would be a generally
usefull addition to the toolbox....
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Default Double glazing - internal "snap-in" removal

In article ,
Tim S writes:
Hi,

Anyone know where to get a trim/bead removing tool for internally glazed
windows (uPVC snap in type).

Having had a very good search on the internet, I can't find such a thing.

I would guess it's going to be something like a bit of metal with a fairly
thin flat L shaped hook on the end of a rod.

Or is there a "proper" name of such a tool?


I'm not aware of such a tool -- fitters I used just used a
thin bladed scraper, and I've done the same on occasion.
You have to push the unit into the frame to loosen the grip
on the beads. Assuming you have gasket strips on the other
side, you take them out first to give you some movement to
play with. If you have glazing tapes, you aren't going to
get the units off them without destroying the tape, and
leaving a horrible mess to clean off the units and the
frames before refitting with new tape. With the beading,
start removal in the middle of the longer side. When you
have the middle out, you have to bend the first piece to
get it out from the ends. The rest of the pieces then come
out more easily.

Not totally happy with the fitting today - I'm going to pop the DG units out
and repack them, before I foam in the window...


You sit them on plastic spacers so the bottoms are lifted
well clear of the bottom of the frame. This is so water
which inevitably leaks past the weather seal can drain away
from the sealed unit bottom edge, and out through the frame
drains. If the sealed unit ends up sitting in a puddle of
water in the frame, it will not be a sealed unit for long.
You can buy packs of mixed thickness spacers from about 2mm
to 10mm from uPVC suppliers (and probably somewhere like
screwfix, although I haven't actually looked for them there).

If you have a uPVC door, the units and spacers play an
important role in bracing the door against dropping, by
heeling and toeing the bottom corner of the hinge side
against the top corner of the lock side, so the unit is
acting a bit like a diagonal timber you find on a slatted
timber door or gate.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
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Default Double glazing - internal "snap-in" removal

Andrew Gabriel coughed up some electrons that declared:

In article ,
Tim S writes:
Hi,

Anyone know where to get a trim/bead removing tool for internally glazed
windows (uPVC snap in type).

Having had a very good search on the internet, I can't find such a thing.

I would guess it's going to be something like a bit of metal with a
fairly thin flat L shaped hook on the end of a rod.

Or is there a "proper" name of such a tool?


I'm not aware of such a tool -- fitters I used just used a
thin bladed scraper, and I've done the same on occasion.
You have to push the unit into the frame to loosen the grip
on the beads. Assuming you have gasket strips on the other
side, you take them out first to give you some movement to
play with. If you have glazing tapes, you aren't going to
get the units off them without destroying the tape, and
leaving a horrible mess to clean off the units and the
frames before refitting with new tape. With the beading,
start removal in the middle of the longer side. When you
have the middle out, you have to bend the first piece to
get it out from the ends. The rest of the pieces then come
out more easily.


Hi Andrew,

Scraper - that sounds a fair bet. Or possibly a very sharp bolster might do
it. They took a fair et of blows to click them in (about the same as when I
saw the window fitter do our rented house - you'd think the glass would
break, but it doesn't). Unfortunately I saw him frame fix, foam and bang
the beading in, but missed some of the details of using the packers.

I don't have tape - there's an external gasket, which I *don't* think comes
out, though I have a second window to inspect. They appeared to be well
fixed before I started, but they might pull out.

Not totally happy with the fitting today - I'm going to pop the DG units
out and repack them, before I foam in the window...


You sit them on plastic spacers so the bottoms are lifted
well clear of the bottom of the frame. This is so water
which inevitably leaks past the weather seal can drain away
from the sealed unit bottom edge, and out through the frame
drains. If the sealed unit ends up sitting in a puddle of
water in the frame, it will not be a sealed unit for long.
You can buy packs of mixed thickness spacers from about 2mm
to 10mm from uPVC suppliers (and probably somewhere like
screwfix, although I haven't actually looked for them there).


I did get a pack from the glass merchant that sold me the windows. Being in
a hurry to shove the glass in and being, alas, away from the internet at
the time, I omitted to research the details of fitting the panels. Spent
most of the time preparing for how to fit the frames, which itself went
well, though I now know I could do with some frame spacers too, before I
foam it in, to get a tighter fit on the screws without bending the frames
(window is only loosely in right now, not done up that tight).

Having seen your message and also finding some fitting instructions
elsewhere, I realise now that the shop rather short changed me on bridge
packers (I got two for 4 DG panels!). I reckon I need 16...

Could do with some more glazing packers to go with these (got about 4 times
4 sizes)

At the moment the glass is in, centred and held by friction. Of course,
correct use of packers would have made fitting the DG unit somewhat easier.
Never mind, live and learn. The windows are small and it's quite feasible
to diassemble and repack.

I'll try the shop first for more packers, otherwise ebay seems the best
bet - Screwfix don't do them and many places seel them by the 1000.

If you have a uPVC door, the units and spacers play an
important role in bracing the door against dropping, by
heeling and toeing the bottom corner of the hinge side
against the top corner of the lock side, so the unit is
acting a bit like a diagonal timber you find on a slatted
timber door or gate.


That would explain why I was finding the casement to be a bit wibbly. Time
to do it again...



Cheers

Tim
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Default Double glazing - internal "snap-in" removal

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

You sit them on plastic spacers so the bottoms are lifted
well clear of the bottom of the frame. This is so water
which inevitably leaks past the weather seal can drain away
from the sealed unit bottom edge, and out through the frame
drains. If the sealed unit ends up sitting in a puddle of
water in the frame, it will not be a sealed unit for long.
You can buy packs of mixed thickness spacers from about 2mm
to 10mm from uPVC suppliers (and probably somewhere like
screwfix, although I haven't actually looked for them there).


For bigger frames it is also worth packing the units such that they tend
to resist the desire of the frame to sag at the free edge - i.e using
the spacers to add diagonal rigidity to the frame.

If you have a uPVC door, the units and spacers play an
important role in bracing the door against dropping, by
heeling and toeing the bottom corner of the hinge side
against the top corner of the lock side, so the unit is
acting a bit like a diagonal timber you find on a slatted
timber door or gate.


I should have read that bit before typing the above... ok just ignore me
- too tired!



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/
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Default Double glazing - internal "snap-in" removal

Andrew Gabriel coughed up some electrons that declared:

In article ,
Tim S writes:
Hi,

Anyone know where to get a trim/bead removing tool for internally glazed
windows (uPVC snap in type).

Having had a very good search on the internet, I can't find such a thing.

I would guess it's going to be something like a bit of metal with a
fairly thin flat L shaped hook on the end of a rod.

Or is there a "proper" name of such a tool?


I'm not aware of such a tool -- fitters I used just used a
thin bladed scraper, and I've done the same on occasion.
You have to push the unit into the frame to loosen the grip
on the beads. Assuming you have gasket strips on the other
side, you take them out first to give you some movement to
play with. If you have glazing tapes, you aren't going to
get the units off them without destroying the tape, and
leaving a horrible mess to clean off the units and the
frames before refitting with new tape. With the beading,
start removal in the middle of the longer side. When you
have the middle out, you have to bend the first piece to
get it out from the ends. The rest of the pieces then come
out more easily.


Ah, look:

http://www.dgsupplyline.co.uk/tools-...ad-lifter.html

Doesn't it look just like a paint scraper!

Came across that website - with much joy, as later I need to reglaze some
ali units and the rubber gasket is shagged. Looks like I might be able to
match it to one of their stock

Found this too, which is interesting:

http://www.howtomendit.com/answers.php?id=228631

But I think I see the gist of this.

It would probably be best to unscrew the lights (both are opening) and do
this on a bench, at least the first time! Glad I started with tiny weeny
windows Hate to do this with 1m2 of glass!

Cheers

Tim

Last edited by kevin : December 7th 16 at 09:22 PM


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Default Double glazing - internal "snap-in" removal

On Fri, 22 May 2009 09:06:23 +0100, Tim S wrote:

Ah, look:

http://www.dgsupplyline.co.uk/result...0&range_id=305

Doesn't it look just like a paint scraper!


That's basicaly what it is. But with a few of differences the blade needs
to be quite stiff, most paint/paper scrapers are too flexible. It needs to
be fairly broad, say around 3" so the force to ping the seal is applied of
a reasonable area and won't cause the scraper to dig into the soft
plastic. The edge needs to be fine but not sharp to get into the tiny gap
without cutting the plastic if slightly misaligned.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Last edited by kevin : January 11th 17 at 03:00 PM
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Default Double glazing - internal "snap-in" removal

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.net...
On Fri, 22 May 2009 09:06:23 +0100, Tim S wrote:

Ah, look:

http://www.dgsupplyline.co.uk/result...0&range_id=305

Doesn't it look just like a paint scraper!


That's basicaly what it is. But with a few of differences the blade needs
to be quite stiff, most paint/paper scrapers are too flexible. It needs to
be fairly broad, say around 3" so the force to ping the seal is applied of
a reasonable area and won't cause the scraper to dig into the soft
plastic. The edge needs to be fine but not sharp to get into the tiny gap
without cutting the plastic if slightly misaligned.

You forgot the main difference, the price needs to be £23, instead of 99p
:-)

Last edited by kevin : January 11th 17 at 03:00 PM
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Default Double glazing - internal "snap-in" removal

Dave Liquorice coughed up some electrons that declared:

On Fri, 22 May 2009 09:06:23 +0100, Tim S wrote:

Ah, look:

http://www.dgsupplyline.co.uk/result...rang e_id=305

Doesn't it look just like a paint scraper!


That's basicaly what it is. But with a few of differences the blade needs
to be quite stiff, most paint/paper scrapers are too flexible. It needs to
be fairly broad, say around 3" so the force to ping the seal is applied of
a reasonable area and won't cause the scraper to dig into the soft
plastic. The edge needs to be fine but not sharp to get into the tiny gap
without cutting the plastic if slightly misaligned.


OK that makes sense.

I do have a fairly stiff scraper (might not be officially a scraper, but
looks like one) - I'll try that first.

Cheers

Tim

Last edited by kevin : January 11th 17 at 03:01 PM
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Default Double glazing - internal "snap-in" removal

On 22 May, 18:50, Tim S wrote:
Dave Liquorice coughed up some electrons that declared:



On Fri, 22 May 2009 09:06:23 +0100, Tim S wrote:


Ah, look:


http://www.dgsupplyline.co.uk/result...range_i d=305


Doesn't it look just like a paint scraper!


That's basicaly what it is. But with a few of differences the blade needs
to be quite stiff, most paint/paper scrapers are too flexible. It needs to
be fairly broad, say around 3" so the force to ping the seal is applied of
a reasonable area and won't cause the scraper to dig into the soft
plastic. The edge needs to be fine but not sharp to get into the tiny gap
without cutting the plastic if slightly misaligned.


OK that makes sense.

I do have a fairly stiff scraper (might not be officially a scraper, but
looks like one) - I'll try that first.

Cheers

Tim


I have take out double glazing beads using two fairly used scrapers.
The first one is tapped into the bead to window frame joint
(perpendicular to window). Tap the second one along side the first.
Then use a screw driver between the two scrapers to force them apart
and start to remove the bead. Once the bead starts to move it is then
easy to remove completely. Doing it this way does not damage the
beading. The secret is to use well worn scrapers say about 50mm wide.
If you haven't got a worn scraper file down a scraper to give it a
tapered leading edge.
Regards

Last edited by kevin : January 11th 17 at 03:02 PM
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Default Double glazing - internal "snap-in" removal

Stuart Noble coughed up some electrons that declared:


IIRC you also have to exert some pressure on the glass to push it
against the outside seal. Removal isn't too difficult, getting them back
again can be.


That's fine - I put them in in the first place.

Which is why I need to remove them and do it again, 'cos I didn;t do it
quite right, with it being the first time...

That much is easy (having watched a window fitter):

For internally glazed, no security tape:

Pack DG unit in (heel and toe, this is the bit I messed up)
Insert top glazing strip and using a small headed rubber mallet and
optionally a plastic tapping block or hard smooth block of wood, whack it
at one end until it clicks in. Work along. Wonder why DG doesn't break. Job
done.

Cheers
Tim
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Default Double glazing - internal "snap-in" removal

In article ,
Tim S writes:
Pack DG unit in (heel and toe, this is the bit I messed up)
Insert top glazing strip and using a small headed rubber mallet and
optionally a plastic tapping block or hard smooth block of wood, whack it
at one end until it clicks in. Work along. Wonder why DG doesn't break. Job
done.


The installers managed to snap a short length of beading when
fitting a small window. The frames were built about a mile down the
road (I already had a guided tour of the factory), so one of them
nipped down there and got another piece. Didn't measure it or
anything -- just gave the order number and the window number,
and the computer cut another piece to exactly the right size.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
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Default Double glazing - internal "snap-in" removal

coughed up some electrons that declared:

I have take out double glazing beads using two fairly used scrapers.
The first one is tapped into the bead to window frame joint
(perpendicular to window). Tap the second one along side the first.
Then use a screw driver between the two scrapers to force them apart
and start to remove the bead. Once the bead starts to move it is then
easy to remove completely. Doing it this way does not damage the
beading. The secret is to use well worn scrapers say about 50mm wide.
If you haven't got a worn scraper file down a scraper to give it a
tapered leading edge.
Regards


Hi

I can now confirm this method, with slight modifications, due to the type of
beading I have:

* This is only for internally glazed, non security taped PVC double glazed
windows *

1) Putty knife (short edges, solid blade)

2) Insert short flat knife edge into join betwixt bead and frame exactly at
one end

3) Hit back of blade with nylon mallet until it pops into the joint. Blade
will tend to slide backwards due to slopes and angle of hit. This may be
resisted with a firm grip on the knife.

4) Lever blade sideways - bead may come apart 2-3mm.

5a) Insert 1-2" scraper (blade rigidity unimportant) into open joint

5b) If bead refused to stay apart, with some fiddling, attempt to slide (or
tap) a *short* scraper in along the face of the knife into the same part of
the joint

6) Take larger sized (6mm) flat blade screwdriver, inset fully between both
blades and twist. Bead *will* now pop open at the position.

7) Change to 2 scrapes (easier to hold). Slide along joint to a less opened
section, screwdriver and twist. Working along the joint, repeat until bead
fully removed.

------

Risks

Risk of superficial damage to bead or frame finish, in steps 3,4 and 5b

Damage appears to be limited to the mating faces of bead and frame so
generally not visible.

In particular, this was tried on a wood finish PVC, where the finish layer
may chip off revealing dark brown plastic.

In fact, no blade damage was visible after re-assembly and blade damage on a
dis-assembled frame was very slight.

-----

Refitting:

My original use of a plastic block to use as a drift was incorrect.

The best way (on my type of bead) was simply to hit it hard, starting at one
end with a small rubber faced mallet. This produced a very clean and
controlled assembly.

-----

Overall - for a first fitting attempt, in the end it turned out quite well.
Two short beads sustained minor visible finish chips (15 x 2mm and a
shorter bit). These are now fitted to the tramson so are comparitively
un-noticeable. I may order replacements for a pukka perfect job, but I
don't think anyone will really notice.

I expect no problems whatsoever with the next window. Like most things, once
you get the feel, it's quite straightforward. Unforuntately, I had to
actually buy a window in order to practise!

Wiki time methinks.

Now, the root cause of all this was a lack of understanding of heeling and
tied in the DG unit in the first place. And a lack of bridge packers and
glass packers.

I'll follow up with a useful website in a minute!

Cheers

Tim
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Default Double glazing - internal "snap-in" removal

Tim S coughed up some electrons that declared:


I'll follow up with a useful website in a minute!

Cheers

Tim


This is the one I went by:

http://www.windowsanddoors.co.uk/est...tallation.html


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Default Double glazing - internal "snap-in" removal

Tim S coughed up some electrons that declared:

coughed up some electrons that declared:

I have take out double glazing beads using two fairly used scrapers.
The first one is tapped into the bead to window frame joint
(perpendicular to window). Tap the second one along side the first.
Then use a screw driver between the two scrapers to force them apart
and start to remove the bead. Once the bead starts to move it is then
easy to remove completely. Doing it this way does not damage the
beading. The secret is to use well worn scrapers say about 50mm wide.
If you haven't got a worn scraper file down a scraper to give it a
tapered leading edge.
Regards


Hi

I can now confirm this method, with slight modifications, due to the type
of beading I have:

* This is only for internally glazed, non security taped PVC double glazed
windows *

1) Putty knife (short edges, solid blade)

2) Insert short flat knife edge into join betwixt bead and frame exactly
at one end

3) Hit back of blade with nylon mallet until it pops into the joint. Blade
will tend to slide backwards due to slopes and angle of hit. This may be
resisted with a firm grip on the knife.

4) Lever blade sideways - bead may come apart 2-3mm.

5a) Insert 1-2" scraper (blade rigidity unimportant) into open joint

5b) If bead refused to stay apart, with some fiddling, attempt to slide
(or tap) a *short* scraper in along the face of the knife into the same
part of the joint

6) Take larger sized (6mm) flat blade screwdriver, inset fully between
both blades and twist. Bead *will* now pop open at the position.

7) Change to 2 scrapes (easier to hold). Slide along joint to a less
opened section, screwdriver and twist. Working along the joint, repeat
until bead fully removed.

------

Risks

Risk of superficial damage to bead or frame finish, in steps 3,4 and 5b

Damage appears to be limited to the mating faces of bead and frame so
generally not visible.

In particular, this was tried on a wood finish PVC, where the finish layer
may chip off revealing dark brown plastic.

In fact, no blade damage was visible after re-assembly and blade damage on
a dis-assembled frame was very slight.

-----

Refitting:

My original use of a plastic block to use as a drift was incorrect.

The best way (on my type of bead) was simply to hit it hard, starting at
one end with a small rubber faced mallet. This produced a very clean and
controlled assembly.

-----

Overall - for a first fitting attempt, in the end it turned out quite
well. Two short beads sustained minor visible finish chips (15 x 2mm and a
shorter bit). These are now fitted to the tramson so are comparitively
un-noticeable. I may order replacements for a pukka perfect job, but I
don't think anyone will really notice.

I expect no problems whatsoever with the next window. Like most things,
once you get the feel, it's quite straightforward. Unforuntately, I had to
actually buy a window in order to practise!

Wiki time methinks.

Now, the root cause of all this was a lack of understanding of heeling and
tied

^^ toeing
in the DG unit in the first place. And a lack of bridge packers and
glass packers.

I'll follow up with a useful website in a minute!

Cheers

Tim


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