[John]

Our insurers require us to have an inspection of the fixed electrical
equipment.

Whilst I know that some of it is old, I don't think any of it is unsafe.

Before I get someone in, I would like to do a once over myself to have
the opportunity to rectify any obvious items before they do their worst!

Does anyone have a checklist or guidance on what to look for?

Thanks

--
John Alexander,

Remove NOSPAM if replying by e-mail

[Ed Sirett]

On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 15:36:53 +0100, John wrote:

Our insurers require us to have an inspection of the fixed electrical
equipment.

Whilst I know that some of it is old, I don't think any of it is unsafe.

Before I get someone in, I would like to do a once over myself to have
the opportunity to rectify any obvious items before they do their worst!

Does anyone have a checklist or guidance on what to look for?


There are so many little things that can be picked up that I would be very
surprised if any installation is totally 100% passable. See how much is
wrong then decide the bets way forward.

This advice is worth what you paid for it.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

[[email protected]]

On Aug 31, 3:36*pm, John wrote:
Our insurers require us to have an inspection of the fixed electrical
equipment.

Whilst I know that some of it is old, I don't think any of it is unsafe.

Before I get someone in, I would like to do a once over myself to have
the opportunity to rectify any obvious items before they do their worst!

Does anyone have a checklist or guidance on what to look for?

Thanks

Expecting someone to teach you a skilled job in a 1 minute posting is
surely a bit optimistic.


NT

[John]

In article
..com, writes
On Aug 31, 3:36*pm, John wrote:
Our insurers require us to have an inspection of the fixed electrical
equipment.

Whilst I know that some of it is old, I don't think any of it is unsafe.

Before I get someone in, I would like to do a once over myself to have
the opportunity to rectify any obvious items before they do their worst!

Does anyone have a checklist or guidance on what to look for?

Thanks

Expecting someone to teach you a skilled job in a 1 minute posting is
surely a bit optimistic.


NT
I know the basics, what I am looking for is pointers to the sorts of
things they may pick up.

I know that all wires should be properly terminated in approved
connectors, etc. - I just hoped for a few other pointers of things which
might be picked up.


--
John Alexander,

Remove NOSPAM if replying by e-mail

[robgraham]

On 31 Aug, 21:03, John wrote:
In article
.com, writes

On Aug 31, 3:36*pm, John wrote:
Our insurers require us to have an inspection of the fixed electrical
equipment.

Whilst I know that some of it is old, I don't think any of it is unsafe.

Before I get someone in, I would like to do a once over myself to have
the opportunity to rectify any obvious items before they do their worst!

Does anyone have a checklist or guidance on what to look for?

Thanks

Expecting someone to teach you a skilled job in a *1 minute posting is
surely a bit optimistic.

NT

I know the basics, what I am looking for is pointers to the sorts of
things they may pick up.

I know that all wires should be properly terminated in approved
connectors, etc. - I just hoped for a few other pointers of things which
might be picked up.

--
John Alexander,

Remove NOSPAM if replying by e-mail

John - I think what the others are saying is that you sound as if you
are treating this like passing an exam; if you don't know what is
required from a professional point of view and you have some sort of
responsibility, then you actually shouldn't really be in that position
of responsibility. Or at least you shouldn't be trying to address
safety issues without really having adequate knowledge and training -
remember that it is the public that you are responsible for and the
insurance company are quite rightly ensuring that their contract with
your church is a reasonable business proposition.

Just let the inspection go ahead and then address any problems it
finds.

Rob

[Graham.]

Our insurers require us to have an inspection of the fixed electrical
equipment.

Whilst I know that some of it is old, I don't think any of it is unsafe.

Before I get someone in, I would like to do a once over myself to have
the opportunity to rectify any obvious items before they do their worst!

Does anyone have a checklist or guidance on what to look for?

Thanks

--
John Alexander,

Remove NOSPAM if replying by e-mail

Perhaps you have a congregant who is qualified?
An appeal from the pulpit?
--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

[Roger Mills]

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
John wrote:

Our insurers require us to have an inspection of the fixed electrical
equipment.

Whilst I know that some of it is old, I don't think any of it is
unsafe.

Before I get someone in, I would like to do a once over myself to have
the opportunity to rectify any obvious items before they do their
worst!

Does anyone have a checklist or guidance on what to look for?

Thanks

This document
http://www.esc.org.uk/pdfs//business...ry/BPG4_08.pdf
may provide some pointers. Whilst principally aimed at domestic inspections,
a lot of it will also apply to churches.
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

[John]

In article .
com, robgraham writes
On 31 Aug, 21:03, John wrote:
In article
.com, writes

On Aug 31, 3:36*pm, John wrote:
Our insurers require us to have an inspection of the fixed electrical
equipment.

Whilst I know that some of it is old, I don't think any of it is unsafe.

Before I get someone in, I would like to do a once over myself to have
the opportunity to rectify any obvious items before they do their worst!

Does anyone have a checklist or guidance on what to look for?

Thanks

Expecting someone to teach you a skilled job in a *1 minute posting is
surely a bit optimistic.

NT

I know the basics, what I am looking for is pointers to the sorts of
things they may pick up.

I know that all wires should be properly terminated in approved
connectors, etc. - I just hoped for a few other pointers of things which
might be picked up.

--
John Alexander,

Remove NOSPAM if replying by e-mail

John - I think what the others are saying is that you sound as if you
are treating this like passing an exam; if you don't know what is
required from a professional point of view and you have some sort of
responsibility, then you actually shouldn't really be in that position
of responsibility. Or at least you shouldn't be trying to address
safety issues without really having adequate knowledge and training -
remember that it is the public that you are responsible for and the
insurance company are quite rightly ensuring that their contract with
your church is a reasonable business proposition.

Just let the inspection go ahead and then address any problems it
finds.

Rob

Hi Rob,

thanks for the advice.

I have a good working knowledge of electrics but it tends to be more at
the making it work level rather than following the rules (you should try
sitting in on the arguments at work about whether 7671 applies to
railway signalling). I do the various small jobs like replacing light
fittings and adding the emergency lights (with proper spurs and fused
outlets). However much of the wiring is old (red/black PVC - no rubber
that I have found so far) - I am only interested in the things which I
can go looking for and rectify in advance.

However, I am keenly aware that it must all be safe and apply the same
standards that I do at work in ensuring the safety of my colleagues.

Never having been responsible for a building where such an inspection
was required, I was just interested to know what to expect.

Johnm

--
John Alexander,

Remove NOSPAM if replying by e-mail

[Cod Roe]

John wrote:
Our insurers require us to have an inspection of the fixed electrical
equipment.

Whilst I know that some of it is old, I don't think any of it is unsafe.

Before I get someone in, I would like to do a once over myself to have
the opportunity to rectify any obvious items before they do their worst!

Does anyone have a checklist or guidance on what to look for?

In a previous parish I was involved in the maintenance of a NICEIC
periodic inspection was required and carried out:

http://niceic.com/technicalapprovals/ma/pir

The main trouble we had was with low insulation resistance:

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/8.5.1.htm

Also earth-fault loop impedance (our primary bonds were insufficient in
size):

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/8.6.2.htm

An RCD had also failed to trip when tested which they identified, lack
of earth sheathing in places, possible overloading of the incoming
supply from heater, fuse box labeling not up to date etc.

[John]

wrote in message
...
On Aug 31, 3:36 pm, John wrote:
Our insurers require us to have an inspection of the fixed electrical
equipment.

Whilst I know that some of it is old, I don't think any of it is unsafe.

Before I get someone in, I would like to do a once over myself to have
the opportunity to rectify any obvious items before they do their worst!

Does anyone have a checklist or guidance on what to look for?

Thanks

Expecting someone to teach you a skilled job in a 1 minute posting is
surely a bit optimistic.


NT

At least start with an inventory - perhaps get 3 people to conduct them
independently and then compare them.

[ARWadworth]

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 15:36:53 +0100, John wrote:

Our insurers require us to have an inspection of the fixed electrical
equipment.

Whilst I know that some of it is old, I don't think any of it is unsafe.

Before I get someone in, I would like to do a once over myself to have
the opportunity to rectify any obvious items before they do their worst!

Does anyone have a checklist or guidance on what to look for?


There are so many little things that can be picked up that I would be very
surprised if any installation is totally 100% passable. See how much is
wrong then decide the bets way forward.

This advice is worth what you paid for it.


If you want to save costs on such a job my recommendation would be to
already have provided the correct equipment to allow the tester to reach
those high up places. The cost of him assembling and disassembling tower
scafold is quite expensive. Ditto for the cupboard that the CU is in. He
does not want to spend 20 minutes clearing buckets, flags and bibles out of
the way to put a pair of stepladders in there! (I have been there)

I would say correct labeling of the CU/fusebox is the main starter. Anyone
looking at a 20 way CU with no labels will soon start to upset.

I do know know if your time spent there is volunteered time or paid for. If
it is paid for then it will still save your church money if you follow those
tips.

Two other tips. If the church has been tested before do you have the old
test sheets?
Ask the guy when he quotes how you can help him. He will not bite
(probably).

Adam

[Andrew Gabriel]

In article ,
"ARWadworth" writes:
If you want to save costs on such a job my recommendation would be to
already have provided the correct equipment to allow the tester to reach
those high up places. The cost of him assembling and disassembling tower
scafold is quite expensive. Ditto for the cupboard that the CU is in. He
does not want to spend 20 minutes clearing buckets, flags and bibles out of
the way to put a pair of stepladders in there! (I have been there)

I would say correct labeling of the CU/fusebox is the main starter. Anyone
looking at a 20 way CU with no labels will soon start to upset.

I do know know if your time spent there is volunteered time or paid for. If
it is paid for then it will still save your church money if you follow those
tips.

Two other tips. If the church has been tested before do you have the old
test sheets?
Ask the guy when he quotes how you can help him. He will not bite
(probably).

You could ask if there's an electrician in the congregation,
or a friend of someone in the congregation.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

[John]

In article , Cod Roe
writes
John wrote:
Our insurers require us to have an inspection of the fixed electrical
equipment.

Whilst I know that some of it is old, I don't think any of it is unsafe.

Before I get someone in, I would like to do a once over myself to have
the opportunity to rectify any obvious items before they do their worst!

Does anyone have a checklist or guidance on what to look for?

In a previous parish I was involved in the maintenance of a NICEIC
periodic inspection was required and carried out:

http://niceic.com/technicalapprovals/ma/pir

The main trouble we had was with low insulation resistance:

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/8.5.1.htm

Also earth-fault loop impedance (our primary bonds were insufficient in
size):

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/8.6.2.htm

An RCD had also failed to trip when tested which they identified, lack
of earth sheathing in places, possible overloading of the incoming
supply from heater, fuse box labeling not up to date etc.

Thank you for the help

--
John Alexander,

Remove NOSPAM if replying by e-mail

[John]

In article , ARWadworth
writes

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 15:36:53 +0100, John wrote:

Our insurers require us to have an inspection of the fixed electrical
equipment.

Whilst I know that some of it is old, I don't think any of it is unsafe.

Before I get someone in, I would like to do a once over myself to have
the opportunity to rectify any obvious items before they do their worst!

Does anyone have a checklist or guidance on what to look for?


There are so many little things that can be picked up that I would be very
surprised if any installation is totally 100% passable. See how much is
wrong then decide the bets way forward.

This advice is worth what you paid for it.


If you want to save costs on such a job my recommendation would be to
already have provided the correct equipment to allow the tester to reach
those high up places. The cost of him assembling and disassembling tower
scafold is quite expensive. Ditto for the cupboard that the CU is in. He
does not want to spend 20 minutes clearing buckets, flags and bibles out of
the way to put a pair of stepladders in there! (I have been there)

I would say correct labeling of the CU/fusebox is the main starter. Anyone
looking at a 20 way CU with no labels will soon start to upset.

I do know know if your time spent there is volunteered time or paid for. If
it is paid for then it will still save your church money if you follow those
tips.

Two other tips. If the church has been tested before do you have the old
test sheets?
Ask the guy when he quotes how you can help him. He will not bite
(probably).

Adam

Many thanks - labelling the CUs is something that I had meant ot do.

I (as are most people in churches) a volunteer and hence just do my best
(with safety top of the list)

The church lighting is accessible by ladder, how much would you expect
the tester to want to go up and look at - are we talking sample lights
or every one?

--
John Alexander,

Remove NOSPAM if replying by e-mail

[Appin]

The message
from Cod Roe contains these words:

John wrote:
Our insurers require us to have an inspection of the fixed electrical
equipment.

Whilst I know that some of it is old, I don't think any of it is unsafe.

Old is liable to be defined as unsafe -- even when it itsn't.


Before I get someone in, I would like to do a once over myself to have
the opportunity to rectify any obvious items before they do their worst!

Does anyone have a checklist or guidance on what to look for?

In a previous parish I was involved in the maintenance of a NICEIC
periodic inspection was required and carried out:

http://niceic.com/technicalapprovals/ma/pir

The main trouble we had was with low insulation resistance:

One very common problem in churches is with the semi-open tubular (as
opposed to sealed tubular) convector heaters -- there are liable to be
considerable leakage currents. This is a "problem" more or less
exclusive to churches and an "understanding" electrician carrying out
the inspection will be aware of that fact. They're that way even when
new, but with older ones blowing them out with compressed air can help.

Your biggest problem is going to be finding a qualified electrician who
has some practical knowledge of the problems peculiar to church
installations. If there's heating involved, they can be very large and
difficult to understand.

I've seen an electricity supplier installing grossly underrated meters
for church heating circuits. I pointed it out to the guys on the job,
but they told me I wasn't qualified and told me to get lost. So I left
them to it. Two of the three meters on the heating circuits burned out
the first time they were used. The next heating bill was VERY low :-).
But then, I'm not qualified :-). If they'd been a bit brighter they
might also have realised that the supplier's time switch had never
performed any useful function because they'd never figured out a simple
way to wire it up ..... the load control wires simply disappeared into
trunking where they terminated without doing anything useful at all :-).
So much for restricted tariff!

So put your effort into getting an electrician who's been on the
installation end of a few church systems, especially if it's a
physically-large installation.

[John]

Thanks for the advice, the heating is gas (although we do have electric
fan radiators in the church to "blow" the heat from the pipes).

The only high current is now the organ blower.

John

In article , Appin
writes
The message
from Cod Roe contains these words:

John wrote:
Our insurers require us to have an inspection of the fixed electrical
equipment.

Whilst I know that some of it is old, I don't think any of it is unsafe.

Old is liable to be defined as unsafe -- even when it itsn't.


Before I get someone in, I would like to do a once over myself to have
the opportunity to rectify any obvious items before they do their worst!

Does anyone have a checklist or guidance on what to look for?

In a previous parish I was involved in the maintenance of a NICEIC
periodic inspection was required and carried out:

http://niceic.com/technicalapprovals/ma/pir

The main trouble we had was with low insulation resistance:

One very common problem in churches is with the semi-open tubular (as
opposed to sealed tubular) convector heaters -- there are liable to be
considerable leakage currents. This is a "problem" more or less
exclusive to churches and an "understanding" electrician carrying out
the inspection will be aware of that fact. They're that way even when
new, but with older ones blowing them out with compressed air can help.

Your biggest problem is going to be finding a qualified electrician who
has some practical knowledge of the problems peculiar to church
installations. If there's heating involved, they can be very large and
difficult to understand.

I've seen an electricity supplier installing grossly underrated meters
for church heating circuits. I pointed it out to the guys on the job,
but they told me I wasn't qualified and told me to get lost. So I left
them to it. Two of the three meters on the heating circuits burned out
the first time they were used. The next heating bill was VERY low :-).
But then, I'm not qualified :-). If they'd been a bit brighter they
might also have realised that the supplier's time switch had never
performed any useful function because they'd never figured out a simple
way to wire it up ..... the load control wires simply disappeared into
trunking where they terminated without doing anything useful at all :-).
So much for restricted tariff!

So put your effort into getting an electrician who's been on the
installation end of a few church systems, especially if it's a
physically-large installation.

--
John Alexander,

Remove NOSPAM if replying by e-mail

[Appin]

The message
from John contains these words:

Thanks for the advice, the heating is gas (although we do have electric
fan radiators in the church to "blow" the heat from the pipes).

The only high current is now the organ blower.

No particular problems then, other than that church installations tend
to be rather old and a little peculiar in that they're usually
little-used for their age -- often used for only an hour or two a week,
so may be in very good condition compared to similar items in everyday
use. A less-than-sympathetic inspector can have a field-day.

[Frank Erskine]

On Wed, 3 Sep 2008 19:31:33 +0100, John wrote:

Thanks for the advice, the heating is gas (although we do have electric
fan radiators in the church to "blow" the heat from the pipes).

The only high current is now the organ blower.

To be honest, I wouldn't have thought that a blower for an organ is
likely to be more than a horse power or so (unless it's something like
a four-manual jobbie!), so you're only talking a few amps for that...

--
Frank Erskine

[geoff]

In message , John
writes
Our insurers require us to have an inspection of the fixed electrical
equipment.

Whilst I know that some of it is old, I don't think any of it is unsafe.

Before I get someone in, I would like to do a once over myself to have
the opportunity to rectify any obvious items before they do their worst!

Does anyone have a checklist or guidance on what to look for?

burning bushes, water changed to wine, man nailed to a tree ?

a church which has a lightning conductor is proof that there is no more
faith

--
geoff

[ARWadworth]

"John" wrote in message
...
In article , ARWadworth
writes

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 15:36:53 +0100, John wrote:

Our insurers require us to have an inspection of the fixed electrical
equipment.

Whilst I know that some of it is old, I don't think any of it is
unsafe.

Before I get someone in, I would like to do a once over myself to have
the opportunity to rectify any obvious items before they do their
worst!

Does anyone have a checklist or guidance on what to look for?


There are so many little things that can be picked up that I would be
very
surprised if any installation is totally 100% passable. See how much is
wrong then decide the bets way forward.

This advice is worth what you paid for it.


If you want to save costs on such a job my recommendation would be to
already have provided the correct equipment to allow the tester to reach
those high up places. The cost of him assembling and disassembling tower
scafold is quite expensive. Ditto for the cupboard that the CU is in. He
does not want to spend 20 minutes clearing buckets, flags and bibles out
of
the way to put a pair of stepladders in there! (I have been there)

I would say correct labeling of the CU/fusebox is the main starter. Anyone
looking at a 20 way CU with no labels will soon start to upset.

I do know know if your time spent there is volunteered time or paid for.
If
it is paid for then it will still save your church money if you follow
those
tips.

Two other tips. If the church has been tested before do you have the old
test sheets?
Ask the guy when he quotes how you can help him. He will not bite
(probably).

Adam

Many thanks - labelling the CUs is something that I had meant ot do.

I (as are most people in churches) a volunteer and hence just do my best
(with safety top of the list)

As I expected. Churches (and many other places) would have died out years
ago without such good people.

The church lighting is accessible by ladder, how much would you expect
the tester to want to go up and look at - are we talking sample lights
or every one?

An agreed sample. Say 20-25%. If for example you have 8 identical lights
that are mounted at very high positions and 2 of them are tested, then the
tester should be able to conclude satisfactory or unsatisfactory using this
sample. The sampling is not a guarantee that the one of the 8 lights is not
dodgy.

Adam