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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Neutral and Earth wrong way round
I'm been slowly checking all the sockets in my new house (1930s). In
one socket I found the neutral wires were in the earth terminal and the earth in the neutral!!! How could this work? I thought any current feeding back through earth would trip the circuit beaker. Apart from further dodgy wiring in the house, could this be an indication of a bigger problem, ie circuit breaker not working? I'm going to keep checking and fixing the rest of the sockets in the house, not being an electrician I can only really check the wires and the correct way round and secure. Is it worth getting a qualified electrician in to run some continuity checks etc? What else could they check for? Cheers Chris |
#3
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Neutral and Earth wrong way round
wrote in message ... I'm been slowly checking all the sockets in my new house (1930s). In one socket I found the neutral wires were in the earth terminal and the earth in the neutral!!! How could this work? I thought any current feeding back through earth would trip the circuit beaker. Apart from further dodgy wiring in the house, could this be an indication of a bigger problem, ie circuit breaker not working? A circuit breaker in a household fuse box only trips if the current is exceeded. You have to have a RCD type device to trip on earth current which you probably don't have. I'm going to keep checking and fixing the rest of the sockets in the house, not being an electrician I can only really check the wires and the correct way round and secure. Is it worth getting a qualified electrician in to run some continuity checks etc? What else could they check for? Cheers Chris |
#4
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Neutral and Earth wrong way round
wrote in message ... I'm been slowly checking all the sockets in my new house (1930s). In one socket I found the neutral wires were in the earth terminal and the earth in the neutral!!! How could this work? I thought any current feeding back through earth would trip the circuit beaker. Apart from further dodgy wiring in the house, could this be an indication of a bigger problem, ie circuit breaker not working? I'm going to keep checking and fixing the rest of the sockets in the house, not being an electrician I can only really check the wires and the correct way round and secure. Is it worth getting a qualified electrician in If its an old house new to you and you are only able to check sockets - yes. Ask for a Periodic Inspection Report. Was nothing said about the state of the electrics during the house purchase? If so definately get the PIR and revisit your legal advice. If not put that down to experience and get the report anyway. Jim A |
#5
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Neutral and Earth wrong way round
wrote:
I'm been slowly checking all the sockets in my new house (1930s). In one socket I found the neutral wires were in the earth terminal and the earth in the neutral!!! How could this work? I thought any current feeding back through earth would trip the circuit beaker. Apart from further dodgy wiring in the house, could this be an indication of a bigger problem, ie circuit breaker not working? I'm going to keep checking and fixing the rest of the sockets in the house, not being an electrician I can only really check the wires and the correct way round and secure. Is it worth getting a qualified electrician in to run some continuity checks etc? What else could they check for? Cheers Chris MCBs are like fuses, they only trip when excess current flows, so no they don't care about live or earth. It does mean you've got no working RCD, which probably isnt a problem, but can be in a minority of cases. Are you in country or town? Do you have something marked as an RCD or ELCB? E/N swap is only a tiny risk. It means that like most oldish installs, things haven't been checked in a while. NT |
#6
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Neutral and Earth wrong way round
What sort of things are written on it? -- They are BS3871, 32A for the socket ring mains. |
#7
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Neutral and Earth wrong way round
If its an old house new to you and you are only able to check sockets - yes. Ask for a Periodic Inspection Report. * * Was nothing said about the state of the electrics during the house purchase? *If so definately get the PIR and revisit your legal advice. *If not put that down to experience and get the report anyway. Thanks Jim, nothing was mentioned on the survey when I purchased the house (I used the banks full survey option, cost me £1500 and they were rubbish!). Think it will have to go down to experience! Any idea what I can expect to pay for a PIR in Greater London? |
#8
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Neutral and Earth wrong way round
wrote:
I'm been slowly checking all the sockets in my new house (1930s). In one socket I found the neutral wires were in the earth terminal and the earth in the neutral!!! How could this work? I thought any current feeding back through earth would trip the circuit beaker. Apart from further dodgy wiring in the house, could this be an indication of a bigger problem, ie circuit breaker not working? I'm going to keep checking and fixing the rest of the sockets in the house, not being an electrician I can only really check the wires and the correct way round and secure. Is it worth getting a qualified electrician in to run some continuity checks etc? What else could they check for? Cheers Chris MCBs trip on overcurrent, so they won't care. It means you have no working RCD or ELCB supplying the sockets, which is usually not a problem, but if you're out in the country on a TT install that would be a big problem. The risk caused by a N/E swap is tiny. It means your electrics havent been checked in a while, which is usual for non-new installs. NT |
#9
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Neutral and Earth wrong way round
"David Hansen" wrote in message news On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 03:31:38 -0700 (PDT) someone who may be wrote this:- I'm been slowly checking all the sockets in my new house (1930s). In one socket I found the neutral wires were in the earth terminal and the earth in the neutral!!! How could this work? I thought any current feeding back through earth would trip the circuit beaker. There are several types of circuit breaker. They work in different ways to detect certain types of fault. Without more information on what sort of circuit breaker you are talking about it is impossible to say whether it should have detected that particular fault. Also a RCD will not trip with a NE reversal at a socket unless that socket is used. Adam |
#10
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Neutral and Earth wrong way round
"ChrisP" wrote in message ... If its an old house new to you and you are only able to check sockets - yes. Ask for a Periodic Inspection Report. Was nothing said about the state of the electrics during the house purchase? If so definately get the PIR and revisit your legal advice. If not put that down to experience and get the report anyway. Thanks Jim, nothing was mentioned on the survey when I purchased the house (I used the banks full survey option, cost me £1500 and they were rubbish!). Think it will have to go down to experience! Any idea what I can expect to pay for a PIR in Greater London? Can't help with the actual costs because it's impossible to quantify except to say the remediation costs are likely to exceed the cost of the Report which is a report and not a fix. I've sat in on NICEIC PIR seminars at trade shows and the open endedness of the process is a little worrying. The tester is supposed to discuss with you what you want (how much?). Unfortunately the background, 70 years or so of inadequate electrics, years of possible botching, recent change of ownership and already identified faults are actually what the process is designed to address. Not endorsing NICEIC, there are other bodies too, but research their website and Google generally about PIRs first. Jim A |
#11
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Neutral and Earth wrong way round
ChrisP wrote:
What sort of things are written on it? They are BS3871, 32A for the socket ring mains. MCBs then NT |
#12
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Neutral and Earth wrong way round
On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 05:16:12 -0700 (PDT) someone who may be ChrisP
wrote this:- What sort of things are written on it? They are BS3871, 32A for the socket ring mains. Then it is an MCB and it would not operate for this sort of fault. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
#13
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Neutral and Earth wrong way round
On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 05:18:43 -0700 (PDT), ChrisP
wrote: Any idea what I can expect to pay for a PIR in Greater London? Probably about £150-300. For this you will get about 2-4 hours of work (so don't expect any amount of detailed inspection) and a tick the box report such as the examples at http://www.checkedelectrics.co.uk/Pe...portSample.pdf http://www.asec.ltd.uk/assets/docume...415_Sample.pdf This will tell you your overall assessment is "unsatisfactory" and that your installation doesn't meet current standards (it doesn't, nor does it need to), that it needs a new consumer unit (it probably doesn't) and a rewire (it almost certainly doesn't). It will also include a few items requiring "urgent attention" (they probably don't). In fact many of the items on those example documents will appear on yours, they may as well be pre-printed. A Periodic Inspection Report is an important sales opportunity for any ambitious electrician. For checking the wiring in your sockets you can either visually inspect them after removing them or use a socket tester such as :- http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Ind...ter/index.html Simple socket tester will alert you to wiring faults but not to earth fault loop impedance faults. More complex ones such as http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/TMEZ150.html will also test earth impedance. |
#14
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Neutral and Earth wrong way round
Peter Parry wrote:
I would agree with most points, but: nor does it need to), that it needs a new consumer unit (it probably doesn't) and a rewire (it almost certainly doesn't). It will also Much depends on the state of the cables. A '30s place could well still have rubber insulated wiring and urgently need rewiring. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#15
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Neutral and Earth wrong way round
On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 16:26:59 +0000, John Rumm
wrote: Much depends on the state of the cables. A '30s place could well still have rubber insulated wiring and urgently need rewiring. It could, but as it already has MCB's that is very unlikely. Even if it was rubber it might well not even be picked up in a Periodic Inspection Report unless its somewhere it can be seen without lifting boards etc. PIRs are far more of a customer paid for sales opportunity for electricians than anything useful. |
#16
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Neutral and Earth wrong way round
Peter Parry wrote:
On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 16:26:59 +0000, John Rumm wrote: Much depends on the state of the cables. A '30s place could well still have rubber insulated wiring and urgently need rewiring. It could, but as it already has MCB's that is very unlikely. Even if it was rubber it might well not even be picked up in a Periodic Inspection Report unless its somewhere it can be seen without lifting boards etc. PIRs are far more of a customer paid for sales opportunity for electricians than anything useful. I'm wondering how practical it is to suggest the OP could do the main points with a bit of reading or explaining. Its not particularly hard. NT |
#17
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Neutral and Earth wrong way round
The house has been rewired, I'm just not sure when.
The offending socket has been used fine, including a vaccum cleaner which i think consume a fair number of watts. I've checked a few more sockets and found loose wires where spurs (sometimes more than one!) have been added. Just looks like a bad DIY by the previous owners I can rectify myself. Thanks everyone, your comments are very helpful. |
#18
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Neutral and Earth wrong way round
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#19
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Neutral and Earth wrong way round
On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 03:31:38 -0700, chrisproud wrote:
I'm been slowly checking all the sockets in my new house (1930s). In one socket I found the neutral wires were in the earth terminal and the earth in the neutral!!! How could this work? I thought any current feeding back through earth would trip the circuit beaker. Apart from further dodgy wiring in the house, could this be an indication of a bigger problem, ie circuit breaker not working? I'm going to keep checking and fixing the rest of the sockets in the house, not being an electrician I can only really check the wires and the correct way round and secure. Is it worth getting a qualified electrician in to run some continuity checks etc? What else could they check for? Cheers Chris As others have said this will not cause a circuit breaker to trip. Given that this particula fault is rather rare (it is plausible to misplace Line and Neutral bit much less the Earth with a Conductor). It brings a serious question mark over the whole installation. -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html |
#20
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Neutral and Earth wrong way round
Andy Champ wrote:
I don't see the relevance of the age. If the cabling is pre-1984 2.5 mm^2 T&E - quite possible in view of the older BS 3871 type MCB mentioned - then the earth conductors acting as neutral will only be 1 mm^2 and could be liable to serious overheating under overload, not protected by the MCB. With later 2.5 T&E the problem won't be quite so bad. -- Andy |
#21
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Neutral and Earth wrong way round
ChrisP wrote:
The house has been rewired, I'm just not sure when. Thinks like a whole house RCD would date it to somewhere early 80's (like the place we just moved into) The offending socket has been used fine, including a vaccum cleaner which i think consume a fair number of watts. With a TN-S or TN-C-S earth, then it probably would work ok... not good though! I've checked a few more sockets and found loose wires where spurs (sometimes more than one!) have been added. Just looks like a bad DIY by the previous owners I can rectify myself. Loose wires are not uncommon on older installs. It would probably be worth the tedium of taking off every faceplate and tightening as required and carrying out a visual inspection as you go. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#22
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Neutral and Earth wrong way round
Andy Champ wrote:
wrote: It means that like most oldish installs, things haven't been checked in a while. I don't see the relevance of the age. Neutral-Earth swap is just wrong, whenever it was installed. Or do you have in mind the interesting image you've given me - that if you don't keep an eye on them, the wires will move about? :P Andy lol NT |
#23
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Neutral and Earth wrong way round
nothing was mentioned on the survey when I purchased the house (I used the banks full survey option, cost me £1500 and they were rubbish!). Think it will have to go down to experience! If you just had a survey - even a full one - a surveyor will carry it out. They are looking at the structure of the building and the result usually explicitly says that it is not an electrical survey. I gave up having electrical surveys after just one as it seemed to be more concerned with the fact that the house did not fully meet the _current_ wiring regulations and had some 45 degree cable runs and did not spot the spur from spur from spur set up in one room. I was more worried that there might be something dangerous in place. dan |
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