Those who claim that waste projects are something from lentil
munching, woolly minded people who don't live in the real world
might like to look at the Daily Wail for today and their campaign
against plastic bags.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=519770&in_page_id=1770&ct= 5

Presumably the Daily Wail has gone soft for making this the main
story for today.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 08:25:56 UTC, David Hansen
wrote:

Those who claim that waste projects are something from lentil
munching, woolly minded people who don't live in the real world
might like to look at the Daily Wail for today and their campaign
against plastic bags.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=519770&in_page_id=1770&ct= 5

Presumably the Daily Wail has gone soft for making this the main
story for today.

It merely shows that they believe their readers (their income) have
succumbed to the greenwash.

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

On 27 Feb 2008 09:30:37 GMT someone who may be "Bob Eager"
wrote this:-

Presumably the Daily Wail has gone soft for making this the main
story for today.

It merely shows that they believe their readers (their income) have
succumbed to the greenwash.

What greenwash is that?


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

David Hansen wrote:
On 27 Feb 2008 09:30:37 GMT someone who may be "Bob Eager"
wrote this:-

Presumably the Daily Wail has gone soft for making this the main
story for today.

It merely shows that they believe their readers (their income) have
succumbed to the greenwash.

What greenwash is that?

Plastic bags use less energy and material than paper. Their use saves
ime and energy, far more than is used up by the bag itself. They are
on balance a good thing. Shame theyre not perfect, but thats life.


NT

wrote:
David Hansen wrote:
On 27 Feb 2008 09:30:37 GMT someone who may be "Bob Eager"
wrote this:-

Presumably the Daily Wail has gone soft for making this the main
story for today.

It merely shows that they believe their readers (their income)
have succumbed to the greenwash.

What greenwash is that?

Plastic bags use less energy and material than paper. Their use saves
ime and energy, far more than is used up by the bag itself.

Probably true.

They are
on balance a good thing.

Matter of opinion. As someone who spends a fair bit of his life on the
beach, on rural roads, riverside paths and generally out and about either
running or dog walking, I see the wretched things everwhere. Burning a bt
more oil to avoid such despoilation of the counrtyside & harm to wildlife is
a small price to pay IMO. Better still, use resuable bags.

The supermarkets could have done a lot more by selling better reusable bags
years ago. Nearly all ours were bought in French supermarkets and are much
better designed & made than ones bought here.

Tim

On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 12:21:51 -0000, Tim Downie wrote:
wrote:
David Hansen wrote:
On 27 Feb 2008 09:30:37 GMT someone who may be "Bob Eager"
wrote this:-

Presumably the Daily Wail has gone soft for making this the main
story for today.

It merely shows that they believe their readers (their income)
have succumbed to the greenwash.

What greenwash is that?

Plastic bags use less energy and material than paper. Their use saves
ime and energy, far more than is used up by the bag itself.

Probably true.

They are
on balance a good thing.

Matter of opinion. As someone who spends a fair bit of his life on the
beach, on rural roads, riverside paths and generally out and about either
running or dog walking, I see the wretched things everwhere. Burning a bt
more oil to avoid such despoilation of the counrtyside & harm to wildlife is
a small price to pay IMO. Better still, use resuable bags.

But that's just littering. We already have laws to deal with that. Now if
those laws aren't applied, that's a different matter. Maybe people who care
about seeing litter strewn around should be lobbying the govt to get these
laws enforced.

The supermarkets could have done a lot more by selling better reusable bags
years ago. Nearly all ours were bought in French supermarkets and are much
better designed & made than ones bought here.

On a purely practical point, charging 5p per bag means almost nothing
in terms of a weekly shopping bill. We typically spend about £50 p.w.
in the supermarket and use maybe 4 or 5 carrier bags. That equates to
an extra 25p on a £50 bill i.e. 0.5% - food inflation accounted for more
than that in just January alone.

I remember all the talk last year (was it about this time?) when the question
of plastic bags was raised initially. Lots of posturing and holier than
thou speeches (tho' not in this NG, maybe we're too sensible). Then
a few months later when it had all blown over I saw a mother with 2
toddlers at the checkout - she used 22 bags for her trolley load. I expect
that once this fuss has died down (again) things will just return to normal.


--
.................................................. .........................
.. never trust a man who, when left alone ...... Pete Lynch .
.. in a room with a tea cosy ...... Marlow, England .
.. doesn't try it on (Billy Connolly) .....................................

On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 04:00:10 -0800 (PST) someone who may be
wrote this:-

What greenwash is that?

Plastic bags use less energy and material than paper.

Not particularly anything to do with the campaign, as the articles
make clear.

However, if one was to move to the energy argument you are simply
regurgitating the arguments of the plastic bag manufacturing lobby.
These arguments are bogus, as they assume that one plastic bag will
be replaced by one paper bag of equivalent capacity which will also
be used once. Nobody is proposing that and thus the arguments are
simply a straw man.






--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On 27 Feb, 08:25, David Hansen
wrote:
Those who claim that waste projects are something from lentil
munching, woolly minded people who don't live in the real world
might like to look at the Daily Wail for today and their campaign
against plastic bags.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_arti...

Presumably the Daily Wail has gone soft for making this the main
story for today.

Sorry, what's the story? I'm constitutionally unable to read anything
in the Daily ****, whether on-line or chip paper.

On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 03:41:44 -0800 (PST) someone who may be
wrote this:-

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_arti...

Presumably the Daily Wail has gone soft for making this the main
story for today.

Sorry, what's the story? I'm constitutionally unable to read anything
in the Daily ****, whether on-line or chip paper.

The title of the thread gives a clue.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On 27 Feb, 14:57, David Hansen
wrote:
On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 03:41:44 -0800 (PST) someone who may be
wrote this:-

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_arti....

Presumably the Daily Wail has gone soft for making this the main
story for today.

Sorry, what's the story? *I'm constitutionally unable to read anything
in the Daily ****, whether on-line or chip paper.

The title of the thread gives a clue.

Yabbut are they for 'em or agin 'em? With the Daily **** you never
can tell.

On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 00:59:11 -0800 (PST) someone who may be
wrote this:-

Sorry, what's the story? *I'm constitutionally unable to read anything
in the Daily ****, whether on-line or chip paper.

The title of the thread gives a clue.

Yabbut are they for 'em or agin 'em? With the Daily **** you never
can tell.

I'm sure you can use your initiative to find out, rather than
expecting to be spoon-fed.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On 28 Feb, 10:46, David Hansen
wrote:
On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 00:59:11 -0800 (PST) someone who may be
wrote this:-

Sorry, what's the story? *I'm constitutionally unable to read anything
in the Daily ****, whether on-line or chip paper.

The title of the thread gives a clue.

Yabbut are they for 'em or agin 'em? *With the Daily **** you never
can tell.

I'm sure you can use your initiative to find out, rather than
expecting to be spoon-fed.

That would mean reading the Daily **** in some form, and then I'd have
to kill myself.

On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 14:57:52 +0000, David Hansen
wrote:

On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 03:41:44 -0800 (PST) someone who may be
wrote this:-

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_arti...

Presumably the Daily Wail has gone soft for making this the main
story for today.

Sorry, what's the story? I'm constitutionally unable to read anything
in the Daily ****, whether on-line or chip paper.

The title of the thread gives a clue.

I thought it was about Harriet Harman's donations scandal.

DG

On 27 Feb, 08:25, David Hansen
wrote:
Those who claim that waste projects are something from lentil
munching, woolly minded people who don't live in the real world
might like to look at the Daily Wail for today and their campaign
against plastic bags.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_arti...

Presumably the Daily Wail has gone soft for making this the main
story for today.

--
* David Hansen, Edinburgh
*I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
*http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

I really don't think the supermarkets are going to ban plastic bags -
they are critical to the operation of the self-scan checkouts which
they wish to replace all their staff with.

On the other hand...adding top-up charges for "environmental
protection" purposes is a nice idea...perhaps they should crank the
price of milk up to £5 a litre to try and mitigate the environmental
damage being done by all these nasty plastic cartons. And the nasty
cellophane that bread comes wrapped in...tsk tsk...£10 per loaf for
you sir!!

Mark.

On 28/02/2008 16:32 wrote:

perhaps they should crank the
price of milk up to £5 a litre to try and mitigate the environmental
damage being done by all these nasty plastic cartons.

And the methane produced every time the cows fart of course...

--
F

(Beware of spam trap - remove the negative)

On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:32:20 -0800 (PST) someone who may be
wrote this:-

I really don't think the supermarkets are going to ban plastic bags -

They certainly don't seem to want to. All that cheap advertising for
a start. However, supermarkets can sometimes be influenced by the
opinion of customers, campaigning groups and government.

they are critical to the operation of the self-scan checkouts which
they wish to replace all their staff with.

Are they? How is that?


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

David Hansen wrote:
On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:32:20 -0800 (PST) someone who may be
wrote this:-

I really don't think the supermarkets are going to ban plastic bags -

They certainly don't seem to want to. All that cheap advertising for
a start. However, supermarkets can sometimes be influenced by the
opinion of customers, campaigning groups and government.

I went to the 'green queue' with our bags..the checkout lady said 'very
good' but seemed very surprised and somehow upset when I pointed out
that my choice of bag saved at best a teaspoonful of plastic, and that
every single item in the shopping cart came in some kind of plastic
wrapping, apart from the tins and boxed up cereels, and that if Waitrose
really was concerned about plastic, it might care to re-think its
product sourcing strategies..

It's more greenwash.

Theres **** all material in plastic bags and apart from te fact that it
is an a particularly visible form its probably relatively harmless and
in any case why not burn it?

There are so MANY more important issues..

On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 10:14:37 +0000 someone who may be The Natural
Philosopher wrote this:-

I went to the 'green queue' with our bags..the checkout lady said 'very
good' but seemed very surprised and somehow upset when I pointed out
that my choice of bag saved at best a teaspoonful of plastic,

Any individual action is always likely to only have a small effect,
but that doesn't mean it is not worth doing. Lots of actions each
with a small effect can add up to a big effect. There are many
examples in history, for example the humbling of the greatest empire
the world has ever seen, which led to the worlds largest democracy
and two other states. The first organised action in that, eventually
successful, campaign was a small march over the issue of a salt tax.
It took 17 years for the campaign to be successful, though there was
a world war for some of that time.

and that
every single item in the shopping cart came in some kind of plastic
wrapping, apart from the tins and boxed up cereels, and that if Waitrose
really was concerned about plastic, it might care to re-think its
product sourcing strategies..

You would be correct if campaigners were only campaigning on plastic
bags. However, they are not.

One of these campaigners, in a speech she gave a month ago stated,
"I know that removing plastic bags from our lives won't make us a
sustainable culture anymore than saving the polar bear will stop
global warming. However, plastic bags and polar bears will make us
all stop and think about the bigger picture." I think that is a good
way of putting it.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

David Hansen wrote:

One of these campaigners, in a speech she gave a month ago stated,
"I know that removing plastic bags from our lives won't make us a
sustainable culture anymore than saving the polar bear will stop
global warming. However, plastic bags and polar bears will make us
all stop and think about the bigger picture." I think that is a good
way of putting it.


Right. Never mind achieving a result. Let's make sure we all know what
the question is eh?

As if the worlds problems will go away once we are aware of them.

How many years ha Bob Geldof been banging on about famine etc.?

How many years has war and violence been over reported in the West?

and have they gone away?

No.

Typical wishy-washy Nu Laber Spik. Lets all feel GOOD about our
pollution. Instead of getting rid of it.

On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 10:14:37 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

every single item in the shopping cart came in some kind of plastic
wrapping, apart from the tins and boxed up cereels,

Your breakfast cereals still come in waxed paper bags inside the box? Ours
have been in grey translucent plastic film bags for years...

It's more greenwash.

This particular bit of media certainly is, 1000 years in the enviroment
for a plastic bag I don't think so. Useless media hype but you can't tell
the population the *real* truth of the situation the world is facing and
how precariously perched on a razor sharp knife edge modern society is.
There would be mass hysteria and panic.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:39:35 +0000 (GMT) someone who may be "Dave
Liquorice" wrote this:-

It's more greenwash.

This particular bit of media certainly is, 1000 years in the enviroment
for a plastic bag I don't think so.

What you think is slightly interesting. However, for the moment I'll
stick with the opinion of those who have studied the subject in
detail. Their opinion is at least 500 years, but probably rather
more. Accelerated tests of this sort are common in many branches of
engineering, they are not perfect but give the best possible
indication of the life of something that we can manage.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Feb 28, 4:32*pm, wrote:
On 27 Feb, 08:25, David Hansen
wrote:

Those who claim that waste projects are something from lentil
munching, woolly minded people who don't live in the real world
might like to look at the Daily Wail for today and their campaign
against plastic bags.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_arti....

Presumably the Daily Wail has gone soft for making this the main
story for today.

--
* David Hansen, Edinburgh
*I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
*http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

I really don't think the supermarkets are going to ban plastic bags -
they are critical to the operation of the self-scan checkouts which
they wish to replace all their staff with.

No they're not. I take a handful of plastic bags with me when I go to
Tesco, and use them at the self-service checkout. No problems apart
from the fact that the barcode scanners seem woefully inadequate
compared with the ones on the manned checkouts.

On the other hand...adding top-up charges for "environmental
protection" purposes is a nice idea...perhaps they should crank the
price of milk up to £5 a litre to try and mitigate the environmental
damage being done by all these nasty plastic cartons.

Put it all back in reusable milk bottles.

And the nasty
cellophane that bread comes wrapped in...tsk tsk...£10 per loaf for
you sir!!

When I buy it (which is rarely, since I prefer homemade) mine comes in
a paper bag. But if you buy your bread from a supermarket you get
what you deserve.

On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:42:37 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

I really don't think the supermarkets are going to ban plastic bags -
they are critical to the operation of the self-scan checkouts which
they wish to replace all their staff with.

No they're not. I take a handful of plastic bags with me when I go to
Tesco, and use them at the self-service checkout.

You'd be making a mistake if you were to assume all self scan systems
were alike. The ones near us dispense bags of known weight or tare
them off at some stage in the proceadings. If customers take handfulls
of sundry old bags and try to fit them onto the machine there is a
possibility of all sorts of problems occuring.

What if we all did it ?

No problems apart
from the fact that the barcode scanners seem woefully inadequate
compared with the ones on the manned checkouts.

On the other hand...adding top-up charges for "environmental
protection" purposes is a nice idea...perhaps they should crank the
price of milk up to £5 a litre to try and mitigate the environmental
damage being done by all these nasty plastic cartons.

Put it all back in reusable milk bottles.


Have you done a full energy audit of doing this?

Would you then be so kind as to show your working out ?

And the nasty
cellophane that bread comes wrapped in...tsk tsk...£10 per loaf for
you sir!!

When I buy it (which is rarely, since I prefer homemade)

It takes all tastes. Anyway as above please show us the results of
your energy audit and uour working out.

mine comes in a paper bag.

So, soon stale.

But if you buy your bread from a supermarket you get
what you deserve.

Ambiguous comment.

DG

"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
Those who claim that waste projects are something from lentil
munching, woolly minded people who don't live in the real world
might like to look at the Daily Wail for today and their campaign
against plastic bags.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=519770&in_page_id=1770&ct= 5

Presumably the Daily Wail has gone soft for making this the main
story for today.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54


This was a topic of discussion on R4 today at some point when I was in the
car ( pouring out carbon.. ).

A few interesting points from there, and some of my own...

1) Many supermarkets today use bio-degradable bags. I don't know how
effective the bio-degradability is.

2) Many people re-use the shopping bags as bin-liners. If they don't get
them, they will buy ( non-biodegradable ) binliners instead, increasing the
uptake of non-biodegradables. Probably worse than the shopping bags.

3) We get most of our shopping from Tesco Direct. They collect last weeks
bags from you when they do this weeks delivery. I've no idea what they do
with them. Feed them to rare turtles, perhaps?

4) My pet hate is not these bags, but the excessive over-packaging of most
products.

Examples:

The kids got a nintendo wii a while ago. They were itching to play it when
it arrived.
I couldn't believe the packaging.
Outer cardboard sleve.
Inner cardboard box, containing:
2 cardboard trays, containing:
Various items individually plastic-wrapped, which also had:
Cables attached, with were also individually wrapped and had plastic cable
ties;
Connectors on each end of each cable had further foam wrap and elastic bands
or tape.
( yes, the cables had 3 plastic bags each. One over tha cable, and one over
the connector at each end.

It took me a good 15 mins just to remove all the bloody packing.

Costco also drive me mad.

All the smallish high-value things they sell are packed in large un-openable
hard clear plastic which you need major tools to open, and even then expect
to cut yourself. This then opens to reveal the individual items from the
multi-pack, again individually wrapped in the same un-openable plastic.
After the recursive opening of all the items, you have a bin-full of plastic
and shredded hands. ( no, I don't mean the bin is full of shredded
hands. ) I'd like to make the MD of costco open one of these packages on
live TV.

--
Ron

Ron Lowe wrote:
"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
Those who claim that waste projects are something from lentil
munching, woolly minded people who don't live in the real world
might like to look at the Daily Wail for today and their campaign
against plastic bags.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=519770&in_page_id=1770&ct= 5

Presumably the Daily Wail has gone soft for making this the main
story for today.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents
me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54


This was a topic of discussion on R4 today at some point when I was
in the car ( pouring out carbon.. ).

A few interesting points from there, and some of my own...

1) Many supermarkets today use bio-degradable bags. I don't know how
effective the bio-degradability is.

2) Many people re-use the shopping bags as bin-liners. If they
don't get them, they will buy ( non-biodegradable ) binliners
instead, increasing the uptake of non-biodegradables. Probably
worse than the shopping bags.
3) We get most of our shopping from Tesco Direct. They collect last
weeks bags from you when they do this weeks delivery. I've no idea
what they do with them. Feed them to rare turtles, perhaps?

4) My pet hate is not these bags, but the excessive over-packaging of
most products.

Examples:

The kids got a nintendo wii a while ago. They were itching to play
it when it arrived.
I couldn't believe the packaging.
Outer cardboard sleve.
Inner cardboard box, containing:
2 cardboard trays, containing:
Various items individually plastic-wrapped, which also had:
Cables attached, with were also individually wrapped and had plastic
cable ties;
Connectors on each end of each cable had further foam wrap and
elastic bands or tape.
( yes, the cables had 3 plastic bags each. One over tha cable, and
one over the connector at each end.

It took me a good 15 mins just to remove all the bloody packing.

Costco also drive me mad.

All the smallish high-value things they sell are packed in large
un-openable hard clear plastic which you need major tools to open,
and even then expect to cut yourself. This then opens to reveal the
individual items from the multi-pack, again individually wrapped in
the same un-openable plastic. After the recursive opening of all the
items, you have a bin-full of plastic and shredded hands. ( no, I
don't mean the bin is full of shredded hands. ) I'd like to make the MD
of costco open one of these
packages on live TV.

Surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet!
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7268283.stm

On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 22:20:12 -0000 someone who may be "Ron Lowe"
ronATlowe-famlyDOTmeDOTukSPURIOUS wrote this:-

1) Many supermarkets today use bio-degradable bags. I don't know how
effective the bio-degradability is.

Some started relatively recently using degradable plastic bags,
following pressure on them. Note that this does not necessarily mean
they are bio-degradeable. There is a confusion of terms, which some
are exploiting. http://www.biobags.co.uk/faq/biodegradable.htm
gives some definitions.

Many bags advertised as degradable degrade by being broken into
smaller and smaller bits by inorganic chemical activity. That means
they will not kill as many animals as an "ordinary" bag, but they
still have all the other problems of plastic bags.

2) Many people re-use the shopping bags as bin-liners. If they don't get
them, they will buy ( non-biodegradable ) binliners instead,

Well, they could do that, but it depends what is lined. If they were
to just line their residual waste bin then the bin-liner would last
for at least four emptyings. Compare the volume of plastic in one
bin-liner lasting for several emptyings with the volume of plastic
in the bags that were inside.

Smart shoppers will have an alternative approach. Around here the
council collects cardboard, paper, glass, clothes, tins and types 1
and 2 plastic at or near the house (they will also collect other
things via a trip to their large centres). With that lot gone what
remains is largely some types of plastic and food.

Food can be divided into compostable and non-compostable. The
compostable can go in a compost bin. The non-compostable can go in a
green cone http://www.greencone.com/how_it_works.asp?prid=10 or
wormery http://www.originalorganics.co.uk/wormeries.htm. Around
here the council say they will be collecting food for central
composting at some time in the future, particularly useful for those
without gardens.

Having got rid of the food that leaves some types of plastic and the
odd item. This can be placed into unlined bins inside the house and
then tipped directly into the residual waste bin. If someone really
wants to line their bin(s), not that I would recommend it, then
something like http://www.biobags.co.uk/products/biobags.htm is
better than a "free" bag.

In mixed company people sometimes make guarded references to
"womem's things", with many men being very squeamish about them.
These must be disposed of in plastic bags is the unspoken assumption
but http://www.ratbag.demon.co.uk/anna/mothers/clothpads.html
indicates otherwise.

4) My pet hate is not these bags, but the excessive over-packaging of most
products.

Excess packaging is part of the same waste reduction process as
plastic bags. Producers are not complying with the law on minimising
packaging, but are being put under pressure by various campaigns.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On 29 Feb, 08:36, David Hansen
wrote:
On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 22:20:12 -0000 someone who may be "Ron Lowe"
ronATlowe-famlyDOTmeDOTukSPURIOUS wrote this:-

1) Many supermarkets today use bio-degradable bags. *I don't know how
effective the bio-degradability is.

Some started relatively recently using degradable plastic bags,
following pressure on them. Note that this does not necessarily mean
they are bio-degradeable. There is a confusion of terms, which some
are exploiting. http://www.biobags.co.uk/faq/biodegradable.htm
gives some definitions.

Many bags advertised as degradable degrade by being broken into
smaller and smaller bits by inorganic chemical activity. That means
they will not kill as many animals as an "ordinary" bag, but they
still have all the other problems of plastic bags.

2) Many people re-use the shopping bags as bin-liners. * If they don't get
them, they will buy ( non-biodegradable ) binliners instead,

Well, they could do that, but it depends what is lined. If they were
to just line their residual waste bin then the bin-liner would last
for at least four emptyings. Compare the volume of plastic in one
bin-liner lasting for several emptyings with the volume of plastic
in the bags that were inside.

Smart shoppers will have an alternative approach. Around here the
council collects cardboard, paper, glass, clothes, tins and types 1
and 2 plastic at or near the house (they will also collect other
things via a trip to their large centres). With that lot gone what
remains is largely some types of plastic and food.

Food can be divided into compostable and non-compostable. The
compostable can go in a compost bin. The non-compostable can go in a
green cone http://www.greencone.com/how_it_works.asp?prid=10 or
wormery http://www.originalorganics.co.uk/wormeries.htm. Around
here the council say they will be collecting food for central
composting at some time in the future, particularly useful for those
without gardens.

Having got rid of the food that leaves some types of plastic and the
odd item. This can be placed into unlined bins inside the house and
then tipped directly into the residual waste bin. If someone really
wants to line their bin(s), not that I would recommend it, then
something like http://www.biobags.co.uk/products/biobags.htm is
better than a "free" bag.

In mixed company people sometimes make guarded references to
"womem's things", with many men being very squeamish about them.
These must be disposed of in plastic bags is the unspoken assumption
but http://www.ratbag.demon.co.uk/anna/mothers/clothpads.html
indicates otherwise.

4) My pet hate is not these bags, but the excessive over-packaging of most
products.

Excess packaging is part of the same waste reduction process as
plastic bags. Producers are not complying with the law on minimising
packaging, but are being put under pressure by various campaigns.

--
* David Hansen, Edinburgh
*I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
*http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

As with most problems today there are no easy solutions. If you think
there is a one sentence solution to a problem then it is very likely
that no all the factors have been considered e.g. plastic bags are bad
for the environment, so ban plastic bags. Plastic bags are good in
some respect, and bad in others.
See here for an interesting article http://www.zerowaste.sa.gov.au/pdf/f...bin_liners.pdf

All food is compostable. Obviously chicken carcasses should be used to
make soup etc. before discarding.
See here for an interesting discussion and explanation
http://www.jenkinspublishing.com/garden_gallery.html
This discussion focuses on human waste composting together with total
food waste composting in the US which has lots of wild animals. You
just need a wire lid on the compost bin to preventanimals digging
around etc. Check out the pictures of their veggies!

To help the planet we need to stop buying things that require
recycling. Just because we can recycle things does not make it ok to
buy them! Just because we can buy cheap plane tickets does not mean it
is ok to buy them! etc.

We need to buy seasonal local produce. This can be difficult when
supermarkets say its local but the item has been shipped a 100 miles
to a packaging and distribution centre, then back to the local
supermarket. If you still need to buy tomatoes in the winter then
perhaps consider those flown in from Spain etc. Why? Locally grown
toms will have been grown in green houses which may use more energy to
keep warm etc. than the energy used to fly-in foreign toms.

A few things we can do.
Remove excess packaging and leave it in the trolley. The Women's
Institute is involved in this. A one day coordinated mass protest in
Denmark (?) resulted in a change in the law for food packaging.

"When it's yellow, let it mellow. When it's brown, flush it down". A
saying from the USA from 30+ years ago. Not just for people with water
meters either. A lot of water (and hence energy) is wasted when
flushing the toilet. Even better, start composting your poo which use
hardly any water. We may have to do this in the future anyway as
drinking water becomes scarcer. Incidently, urine makes is a good
accelerator (a helper/initiator for the composting process) for
composting.

Don' fly

Buy seasonal foods

Cycle to work. You will save money, be less stressed, live longer and
be more active and alert in your old age. Why get in your car to cycle
to the bike at the gym (the gym also used lots of energy to get built,
so going to a gym is bad for the environment notwithstanding the fuel
used to get there).

Turn lights off.

Don't drink bottled water. It takes 6 liters of water and one liter of
oil to make one liter of bottled water!

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember nafuk
saying something like:

It takes 6 liters of water and one liter of
oil to make one liter of bottled water!

I don't believe that, even if you read it on the internet. And it's
'litre', we are not bloody Americans.
--

Dave

On 29 Feb, 13:18, Grimly Curmudgeon
wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember nafuk
saying something like:

It takes 6 liters of water and one liter of
oil to make one liter of bottled water!

I don't believe that, even if you read it on the internet. And it's
'litre', we are not bloody Americans.
--

Dave

I heard it on a Radio 4 environment program. Why don't you believe it.
Purifying the water, making the bottles, transporting the bottles,
distributing the bottles etc. I suspect they did not include workers
driving to the factory and building the factory etc. etc.

On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 03:26:30 -0800 (PST) someone who may be nafuk
wrote this:-

As with most problems today there are no easy solutions. If you think
there is a one sentence solution to a problem then it is very likely
that no all the factors have been considered

Given that you are replying to a message from me which contained
rather more than one sentence, I don't think I can be properly
accused of this.

All food is compostable.

Debatable. I could have used even more sentences to say that meat
can be put in a compost bin which is sealed against rats, even
though such bins are not generally available. It is rather easier to
say that such things can be put into a green cone and digested. An
examination of the web site I indicated will show how they prevent
rats from entering.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 22:20:12 -0000, "Ron Lowe"
ronATlowe-famlyDOTmeDOTukSPURIOUS wrote:

"David Hansen" wrote in message
.. .
Those who claim that waste projects are something from lentil
munching, woolly minded people who don't live in the real world
might like to look at the Daily Wail for today and their campaign
against plastic bags.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=519770&in_page_id=1770&ct= 5

Presumably the Daily Wail has gone soft for making this the main
story for today.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54


This was a topic of discussion on R4 today at some point when I was in the
car ( pouring out carbon.. ).

2) Many people re-use the shopping bags as bin-liners. If they don't get
them, they will buy ( non-biodegradable ) binliners instead, increasing the
uptake of non-biodegradables. Probably worse than the shopping bags.

Trouble is with this is that they punch holes in the bottom of all the
bags.

4) My pet hate is not these bags, but the excessive over-packaging of most
products.

Agreed.

M.

On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 22:20:12 -0000, Ron Lowe wrote:

1) Many supermarkets today use bio-degradable bags. I don't know how
effective the bio-degradability is.

Well the bags fall apart in a couple of years. They certainly don't hang
about for the 1000 years that is been touted in the media. Think about it
13 billion bags given out a year, even if 0.1% of em were loose we'd still
be knee deep in the things.

2) Many people re-use the shopping bags as bin-liners.

Can't do that here we have to use the, council supplied, blue bag. Some do
get used in small bins and for emptying the shhh Dyson.

3) We get most of our shopping from Tesco Direct. They collect last
weeks bags from you when they do this weeks delivery.

Why is the shopping bagged at all? When I see them picking in store it's
all going into plastic trays no need for bags, at least not for many
items.

Costco also drive me mad.

All the smallish high-value things they sell are packed in large
un-openable hard clear plastic which you need major tools to open, and
even then expect to cut yourself. This then opens to reveal the
individual items from the multi-pack, again individually wrapped in the
same un-openable plastic.

Agreed, terrible packaging but I guess it's to combat tea leaves.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 22:20:12 -0000, Ron Lowe wrote:

1) Many supermarkets today use bio-degradable bags. I don't know how
effective the bio-degradability is.

Well the bags fall apart in a couple of years. They certainly don't hang
about for the 1000 years that is been touted in the media. Think about it
13 billion bags given out a year, even if 0.1% of em were loose we'd still
be knee deep in the things.

2) Many people re-use the shopping bags as bin-liners.

Can't do that here we have to use the, council supplied, blue bag. Some do
get used in small bins and for emptying the shhh Dyson.

3) We get most of our shopping from Tesco Direct. They collect last
weeks bags from you when they do this weeks delivery.

Why is the shopping bagged at all? When I see them picking in store it's
all going into plastic trays no need for bags, at least not for many
items.

Costco also drive me mad.

All the smallish high-value things they sell are packed in large
un-openable hard clear plastic which you need major tools to open, and
even then expect to cut yourself. This then opens to reveal the
individual items from the multi-pack, again individually wrapped in the
same un-openable plastic.

Agreed, terrible packaging but I guess it's to combat tea leaves.

Perhaps I have missed it, but no one has mentioned the Ireland 5p a bag
law. Yes the number of bags have reduced (slightly), but there has
actually been more plastic used as the bags are stronger. The same
applies to the "reusable" bags so strongly touted as being good.
Politicians are incapable of reasoning out the consequences of their
laws. What do they think will happen when they start charging us for
collecting our rubbish by the kilo? I bet that people will drive down
the road with their rubbish in bags and throw them out of their cars
when they consider it safe. Also there will be lots more bonfires
blackening the skies as others burn their rubbish.

On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 16:27:17 +0000 someone who may be Broadback
wrote this:-

Perhaps I have missed it, but no one has mentioned the Ireland 5p a bag
law.

It is mentioned in the article.

Yes the number of bags have reduced (slightly),

Incorrect, unless one has an interesting definition of what is a
slight reduction. The average number of bags per shopper per year
went from 328 to 21. However, that number has been going up recently
which shows people cannot rest on their laurels.

but there has
actually been more plastic used as the bags are stronger.

Actually the usual claim of the plastic lobby is that items are now
wrapped in an incredible number of layers of plastic.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Broadback
saying something like:

Perhaps I have missed it, but no one has mentioned the Ireland 5p a bag
law. Yes the number of bags have reduced (slightly),

Actually, t's reduced a helluva lot.

but there has
actually been more plastic used as the bags are stronger.

Not so. You have the option of taking the cheap ****e 'free' bags and
paying the 25c tax, or taking a stronger multi-use bag at ~50c inc tax.

The same
applies to the "reusable" bags so strongly touted as being good.

They actually work. My bag aquisition has plummeted in the past years
and I've hardly bought any more than a score of bags in the past 12
months.

Politicians are incapable of reasoning out the consequences of their
laws. What do they think will happen when they start charging us for
collecting our rubbish by the kilo? I bet that people will drive down
the road with their rubbish in bags and throw them out of their cars
when they consider it safe.

There's a load of truth in that. Rural roads in Ireland are littered
with chav scums' rubbish. The threat of prosecution didn't seem to do
much so a Chav Scum Waste Squad was set up; unfortunately, not to waste
the chav scum, but to rummage through their rubbish in search of
identifying documents. Incredibly it's been quite successful.

Also there will be lots more bonfires
blackening the skies as others burn their rubbish.

Ah well, that's so. If you increase the cost of rubbish collection more
people will burn it. Here, there's an anti-bonfire piece of legislation
which was probably brought in by the lobbying of the waste collection
companies, but disguised by being presented as "Good for the
Environment", and as a result was fervently backed by the Green ******s.
The result is that most evenings as you drive around you can smell
rubbish being burned in backyards.
--

Dave

David Hansen wrote:
Those who claim that waste projects are something from lentil
munching, woolly minded people who don't live in the real world
might like to look at the Daily Wail for today and their campaign
against plastic bags.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=519770&in_page_id=1770&ct= 5

Presumably the Daily Wail has gone soft for making this the main
story for today.

More likely that they got a whiff of Marks and Spencer's announcement (which
unsurprisingly occured the day after this story) that they were to start
charging for bags.

ITN do it all the time, then when the announcement(s) are made shortly
after, they gloatingly report, 'following *our* highlighting of this issue,
blah, blah, blah' making it look like they have made it happen, when in
reality, they couldn't give a toss.