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Flueless Gas Fires
Friend of mine has bought a flueless gas fire from B&Q. His corgi fitter
however says he would be reluctant to install it, even if all the critera for room size, ventilation and use etc is satisfied. Are there any corgi people here? If so what's your opinion of these fires. Thanks Fred |
Flueless Gas Fires
Advise he buy a co alarm too!
On 23 Jan, 23:53, "The Simpsons" wrote: Friend of mine has bought a flueless gas fire from B&Q. His corgi fitter however says he would be reluctant to install *it, even if all the critera for room size, ventilation and use etc is satisfied. Are there any corgi *people here? If so what's your opinion of these fires. Thanks Fred |
Flueless Gas Fires
On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:53:58 -0000, "The Simpsons"
wrote: Friend of mine has bought a flueless gas fire from B&Q. His corgi fitter however says he would be reluctant to install it, even if all the critera for room size, ventilation and use etc is satisfied. Are there any corgi people here? If so what's your opinion of these fires. Thanks Fred Natural gas is principally methane (CH4). The products of combustion are CH4(g) + 2 O2(g) = CO2(g) + 2 H2O(l) (g=gas, I=vapour) carbon dioxide and water. This is what you will be exhausting into your living space. If your living space is well ventilated then I suppose it could be claimed there is no problem although the introduction of clean air will require more gas to be burned to heat that air. My view is this type of heater is best to be avoided. Corgi qualified fitters have no specific expertise in this matter. It is simply a matter of chemistry! |
Flueless Gas Fires
On 24 Jan, 07:56, Edward W. Thompson
wrote: On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:53:58 -0000, "The Simpsons" wrote: Friend of mine has bought a flueless gas fire from B&Q. His corgi fitter however says he would be reluctant to install *it, even if all the critera for room size, ventilation and use etc is satisfied. Are there any corgi *people here? If so what's your opinion of these fires. Thanks Fred Natural gas is principally methane (CH4). *The products of combustion are CH4(g) + 2 O2(g) = CO2(g) + 2 H2O(l) (g=gas, I=vapour) carbon dioxide and water. *This is what you will be exhausting into your living space. *If your living space is well ventilated then I suppose it could be claimed there is no problem although the introduction of clean air will require more gas to be burned to heat that air. My view is this type of heater is best to be avoided. *Corgi fitters have no specific expertise in this matter. *It is simply a matter of chemistry! We discussed this a couple of years back. What put me off was: http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/rrpdf/rr023.pdf |
Flueless Gas Fires
On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:53:58 +0000, The Simpsons wrote:
Friend of mine has bought a flueless gas fire from B&Q. His corgi fitter however says he would be reluctant to install it, even if all the critera for room size, ventilation and use etc is satisfied. Are there any corgi people here? If so what's your opinion of these fires. Thanks Fred The report linked in one of the posts says that the maximum concentration of CO was 22ppm. This was under extreme use that nobody would normally put the fire to, and without the ventilation that the fire requires. 22ppm would at most give you a headache after some hours (but frankly you'd have turned the fire off and/or opened a window long before then). Besides which these are not intended as a primary source of heat. The rules require them to be put in relatively large rooms. If the fires are installed in accordance with the instructions and the regulations there should not be a problem. Many registered fitters who feel the need to defend their careers and livings simply won't go near open flued or flueless appliances. There is no requirement that they do work that they do not wish to do, most have more than enough work without taking on extra "risks" [1]. The + for flueless a simple installation inherent reliability inherent high efficiency The - a possible odours may aggravate condensation [1] These risks, IMHO, are perceived rather than significant. -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html |
Flueless Gas Fires
On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:53:58 +0000, The Simpsons wrote:
Friend of mine has bought a flueless gas fire from B&Q. His corgi fitter however says he would be reluctant to install it, even if all the critera for room size, ventilation and use etc is satisfied. Are there any corgi people here? If so what's your opinion of these fires. Thanks Fred Wouldn't touch them with a bargepole, mainly because when I did my training we didn't do anything about them, and one article in Gas Installer and the Manufacturer's instructions don't give me sufficient confidence in my my competence to install one safely that I'd risk a customer's neck and my profession on it when there's plenty other work to do. -- John Stumbles My karma ran over my dogma |
Flueless Gas Fires
On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:53:58 +0000, The Simpsons wrote: Friend of mine has bought a flueless gas fire from B&Q. His corgi fitter however says he would be reluctant to install it, even if all the critera for room size, ventilation and use etc is satisfied. Are there any corgi people here? If so what's your opinion of these fires. Thanks Fred Thanks all for the feedback, will pass it on. F |
Flueless Gas Fires
On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 22:17:51 +0000, John Stumbles wrote:
---8--- verbal diahorrea drivel snipped ---8--- So what drongo is now forging messages as being from reputable[1] uk.d-i-y'ers? [1] Such as Ed. And also from me. -- John Stumbles Fundamentalist agnostic |
Flueless Gas Fires
In message , John Stumbles
writes On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 22:17:51 +0000, John Stumbles wrote: ---8--- verbal diahorrea drivel snipped ---8--- So what drongo is now forging messages as being from reputable[1] uk.d-i-y'ers? See the thread called "what's occurring" -- geoff |
Flueless Gas Fires
On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:07:31 +0000 (UTC), Ed Sirett
wrote: On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:53:58 +0000, The Simpsons wrote: Friend of mine has bought a flueless gas fire from B&Q. His corgi fitter however says he would be reluctant to install it, even if all the critera for room size, ventilation and use etc is satisfied. Are there any corgi people here? If so what's your opinion of these fires. Thanks Fred The report linked in one of the posts says that the maximum concentration of CO was 22ppm. This was under extreme use that nobody would normally put the fire to, and without the ventilation that the fire requires. 22ppm would at most give you a headache after some hours (but frankly you'd have turned the fire off and/or opened a window long before then). Besides which these are not intended as a primary source of heat. The rules require them to be put in relatively large rooms. If the fires are installed in accordance with the instructions and the regulations there should not be a problem. Many registered fitters who feel the need to defend their careers and livings simply won't go near open flued or flueless appliances. There is no requirement that they do work that they do not wish to do, most have more than enough work without taking on extra "risks" [1]. The + for flueless a simple installation inherent reliability inherent high efficiency The - a possible odours may aggravate condensation [1] These risks, IMHO, are perceived rather than significant. I assume for CO (carbon monoxide) read CO2 (carbon dioxide). I would be surprised that a device that emitted any level of carbon monoxide in a home would be judged as 'safe'. |
Flueless Gas Fires
On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:07:31 +0000 (UTC), Ed Sirett
wrote: On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:53:58 +0000, The Simpsons wrote: Friend of mine has bought a flueless gas fire from B&Q. His corgi fitter however says he would be reluctant to install it, even if all the critera for room size, ventilation and use etc is satisfied. Are there any corgi people here? If so what's your opinion of these fires. Thanks Fred The report linked in one of the posts says that the maximum concentration of CO was 22ppm. This was under extreme use that nobody would normally put the fire to, and without the ventilation that the fire requires. 22ppm would at most give you a headache after some hours (but frankly you'd have turned the fire off and/or opened a window long before then). Besides which these are not intended as a primary source of heat. The rules require them to be put in relatively large rooms. If the fires are installed in accordance with the instructions and the regulations there should not be a problem. Many registered fitters who feel the need to defend their careers and livings simply won't go near open flued or flueless appliances. There is no requirement that they do work that they do not wish to do, most have more than enough work without taking on extra "risks" [1]. The + for flueless a simple installation inherent reliability inherent high efficiency The - a possible odours may aggravate condensation [1] These risks, IMHO, are perceived rather than significant. I don't know but hope that the composition of natural gas is controlled by legislation. Even if it is the emission into a living space by flueless devices depends entirely upon the gas meeting the specified composition. If the gas is pure methane then the likelihood of problems in a ventilated room is likely slight, however, if any impurities are included into the gas supply by design or by accident the resulting emissions could be poisonous. Are you prepared to accept this risk, I don't think I am. |
Flueless Gas Fires
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 06:32:04 +0000 Edward W. Thompson wrote :
If the gas is pure methane then the likelihood of problems in a ventilated room is likely slight, however, if any impurities are included into the gas supply by design or by accident the resulting emissions could be poisonous. Are you prepared to accept this risk, I don't think I am. So would you outlaw gas cookers? -- Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk |
Flueless Gas Fires
"Tony Bryer" wrote in message ... On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 06:32:04 +0000 Edward W. Thompson wrote : If the gas is pure methane then the likelihood of problems in a ventilated room is likely slight, however, if any impurities are included into the gas supply by design or by accident the resulting emissions could be poisonous. Are you prepared to accept this risk, I don't think I am. So would you outlaw gas cookers? Not comparing like with like. People don't normally put their feet up and doze off in the kitchen. F |
Flueless Gas Fires
The Simpsons wrote:
"Tony Bryer" wrote in message ... On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 06:32:04 +0000 Edward W. Thompson wrote : If the gas is pure methane then the likelihood of problems in a ventilated room is likely slight, however, if any impurities are included into the gas supply by design or by accident the resulting emissions could be poisonous. Are you prepared to accept this risk, I don't think I am. So would you outlaw gas cookers? Not comparing like with like. People don't normally put their feet up and doze off in the kitchen. F They would if the cooker is pouring out carbon monoxide. -- LSR |
Flueless Gas Fires
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 06:23:38 +0000, Edward W. Thompson wrote:
On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:07:31 +0000 (UTC), Ed Sirett wrote: On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:53:58 +0000, The Simpsons wrote: Friend of mine has bought a flueless gas fire from B&Q. His corgi fitter however says he would be reluctant to install it, even if all the critera for room size, ventilation and use etc is satisfied. Are there any corgi people here? If so what's your opinion of these fires. Thanks Fred The report linked in one of the posts says that the maximum concentration of CO was 22ppm. This was under extreme use that nobody would normally put the fire to, and without the ventilation that the fire requires. 22ppm would at most give you a headache after some hours (but frankly you'd have turned the fire off and/or opened a window long before then). Besides which these are not intended as a primary source of heat. The rules require them to be put in relatively large rooms. If the fires are installed in accordance with the instructions and the regulations there should not be a problem. Many registered fitters who feel the need to defend their careers and livings simply won't go near open flued or flueless appliances. There is no requirement that they do work that they do not wish to do, most have more than enough work without taking on extra "risks" [1]. The + for flueless a simple installation inherent reliability inherent high efficiency The - a possible odours may aggravate condensation [1] These risks, IMHO, are perceived rather than significant. I assume for CO (carbon monoxide) read CO2 (carbon dioxide). I would be surprised that a device that emitted any level of carbon monoxide in a home would be judged as 'safe'. No, I know the difference. Whilst I can and do make many typos I mean CO. 22ppm was the maximum recorded value. That's not going to give you more than a head ache and that was the worst case. No vents, left on 8 hours, etc. The danger in these devices is that they are not inherently safe enough to continue using if they are neglected and begin to burn badly. -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html |
Flueless Gas Fires
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 06:32:04 +0000, Edward W. Thompson wrote:
On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:07:31 +0000 (UTC), Ed Sirett wrote: On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:53:58 +0000, The Simpsons wrote: Friend of mine has bought a flueless gas fire from B&Q. His corgi fitter however says he would be reluctant to install it, even if all the critera for room size, ventilation and use etc is satisfied. Are there any corgi people here? If so what's your opinion of these fires. Thanks Fred The report linked in one of the posts says that the maximum concentration of CO was 22ppm. This was under extreme use that nobody would normally put the fire to, and without the ventilation that the fire requires. 22ppm would at most give you a headache after some hours (but frankly you'd have turned the fire off and/or opened a window long before then). Besides which these are not intended as a primary source of heat. The rules require them to be put in relatively large rooms. If the fires are installed in accordance with the instructions and the regulations there should not be a problem. Many registered fitters who feel the need to defend their careers and livings simply won't go near open flued or flueless appliances. There is no requirement that they do work that they do not wish to do, most have more than enough work without taking on extra "risks" [1]. The + for flueless a simple installation inherent reliability inherent high efficiency The - a possible odours may aggravate condensation [1] These risks, IMHO, are perceived rather than significant. I don't know but hope that the composition of natural gas is controlled by legislation. Even if it is the emission into a living space by flueless devices depends entirely upon the gas meeting the specified composition. If the gas is pure methane then the likelihood of problems in a ventilated room is likely slight, however, if any impurities are included into the gas supply by design or by accident the resulting emissions could be poisonous. Are you prepared to accept this risk, I don't think I am. The composition of gas is controlled by various standards and is mostly CH4, some C2H6, some N2 and some CO2 + various other trace things. There is little or no CO in the gas. The CO is generated by poor combustion. -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html |
Flueless Gas Fires
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 18:14:09 +0000 (UTC), Ed Sirett
wrote: On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 06:23:38 +0000, Edward W. Thompson wrote: On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:07:31 +0000 (UTC), Ed Sirett wrote: On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:53:58 +0000, The Simpsons wrote: Friend of mine has bought a flueless gas fire from B&Q. His corgi fitter however says he would be reluctant to install it, even if all the critera for room size, ventilation and use etc is satisfied. Are there any corgi people here? If so what's your opinion of these fires. Thanks Fred The report linked in one of the posts says that the maximum concentration of CO was 22ppm. This was under extreme use that nobody would normally put the fire to, and without the ventilation that the fire requires. 22ppm would at most give you a headache after some hours (but frankly you'd have turned the fire off and/or opened a window long before then). Besides which these are not intended as a primary source of heat. The rules require them to be put in relatively large rooms. If the fires are installed in accordance with the instructions and the regulations there should not be a problem. Many registered fitters who feel the need to defend their careers and livings simply won't go near open flued or flueless appliances. There is no requirement that they do work that they do not wish to do, most have more than enough work without taking on extra "risks" [1]. The + for flueless a simple installation inherent reliability inherent high efficiency The - a possible odours may aggravate condensation [1] These risks, IMHO, are perceived rather than significant. I assume for CO (carbon monoxide) read CO2 (carbon dioxide). I would be surprised that a device that emitted any level of carbon monoxide in a home would be judged as 'safe'. No, I know the difference. Whilst I can and do make many typos I mean CO. 22ppm was the maximum recorded value. That's not going to give you more than a head ache and that was the worst case. No vents, left on 8 hours, etc. The danger in these devices is that they are not inherently safe enough to continue using if they are neglected and begin to burn badly. I agree with you that the inherent safety of these devices is questionable although I thought your position was the "risks are perceived rather than actual". |
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