Does anyone know where I can buy casein glue, hide glue, or some
other *natural*, (i.e., animal or vegetable) water-resistant glue for
hardwood? (I only need a small amount!)

Or perhaps someone can tell me some brand/product names that I can
look for in my local B&Q/Jewsons, etc?

In my youth, there was a well-known brand of casein glue called
cascamite, but it looks like the modern offerings under that brand
name are now synthetic.

Thank you,

JD

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 17:38:39 +0000, JakeD wrote:


Does anyone know where I can buy casein glue, hide glue, or some
other *natural*, (i.e., animal or vegetable) water-resistant glue for
hardwood? (I only need a small amount!)

Or perhaps someone can tell me some brand/product names that I can
look for in my local B&Q/Jewsons, etc?

In my youth, there was a well-known brand of casein glue called
cascamite, but it looks like the modern offerings under that brand
name are now synthetic.

Thank you,

JD

Have a look in the axminster site .They might have something that
suits you sir .

:-)

http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-L...Glue-22992.htm

JakeD wrote:
Does anyone know where I can buy casein glue, hide glue, or some
other *natural*, (i.e., animal or vegetable) water-resistant glue for
hardwood? (I only need a small amount!)

Could one ask why it has to be natural?


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

In article , The Medway
Handyman writes
JakeD wrote:
Does anyone know where I can buy casein glue, hide glue, or some
other *natural*, (i.e., animal or vegetable) water-resistant glue for
hardwood? (I only need a small amount!)

Could one ask why it has to be natural?

ISTR that Cascamite one shot discolours Oak if that happens to be your
hardwood.

regards



--
Tim Lamb

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 18:52:17 GMT, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

Does anyone know where I can buy casein glue, hide glue, or some
other *natural*, (i.e., animal or vegetable) water-resistant glue for
hardwood? (I only need a small amount!)

Could one ask why it has to be natural?

Some would cosider me obsessive, but I'm making a musical instrument
(wooden flute) from a design that is about 150 years old. I just want
the (arguably perverse) satisfaction of doing it without using any
materials that could not have been produced 150 years ago. That's
more-or-less it.

Plus, I am keen to try out these natural glues out of curiosity.

JD

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 10:11:29 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:


http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-L...Glue-22992.htm

Thank you. (Likewise to Stuart.) They have a small bottle of hide glue
that I might settle for. I'm surprised they don't seem to stock casein
glue. I wonder which is weakened the least by dampness and human
skin-oils: casein or hide glue... Does anyone know?

JD

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 19:11:59 +0000, Tim Lamb
wrote:

ISTR that Cascamite one shot discolours Oak if that happens to be your
hardwood.

Thanks for the warning. I'm using maple on this occasion.

JD

On 10 Dec, 19:25, JakeD wrote:
On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 19:11:59 +0000, Tim Lamb
wrote:

ISTR that Cascamite one shot discolours Oak if that happens to be your
hardwood.

Thanks for the warning. I'm using maple on this occasion.

JD

I cannot immediately find the confirmation of this but as far as a I
can remember cascamite was one of the first synthetic glues and was
originally made using milk as a basis One of the WW2 twin engined
aircraft (can't remember it's name now) was made of wood using this
glue and always smelt of sour milk. Maybe that's apocryphal and no
doubt there will be someone coming along to tell me that's all a load
of cobblers !

But one thing I'm pretty certain of is that Cascamite or anything like
it would not have been available 150 years ago. All glues then were
hot melt glues which have the advantage for musical instruments that
with a suitable bit of gently applied heat they can be dismantled for
repair.

Rob

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 12:17:26 -0800 (PST), robgraham
wrote:

I cannot immediately find the confirmation of this but as far as a I
can remember cascamite was one of the first synthetic glues and was
originally made using milk as a basis

The original Cascamite, or at least the powdered stuff in a tin I
recall from the 1960s, was, as far as I'm aware casein glue. (Casein
being a protein by-product of milk, as I understand it.)

One of the WW2 twin engined
aircraft (can't remember it's name now) was made of wood using this
glue and always smelt of sour milk. #

Probably the de Havilland Mosquito.
http://tinyurl.com/3brdxn

JD

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 19:12:29 +0000, JakeD wrote:

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 18:52:17 GMT, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

Does anyone know where I can buy casein glue, hide glue, or some
other *natural*, (i.e., animal or vegetable) water-resistant glue for
hardwood? (I only need a small amount!)

Could one ask why it has to be natural?

Some would cosider me obsessive, but I'm making a musical instrument
(wooden flute) from a design that is about 150 years old. I just want
the (arguably perverse) satisfaction of doing it without using any
materials that could not have been produced 150 years ago. That's
more-or-less it.

Plus, I am keen to try out these natural glues out of curiosity.

What part of the flute d'you need this kind of glue for?

There are very few glued parts on a period flute, and where there are
they're glued with shellac ( the head lining, for example ).

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{who is at}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 21:29:57 +0000, Stephen Howard
wrote:

What part of the flute d'you need this kind of glue for?

There are very few glued parts on a period flute, and where there are
they're glued with shellac ( the head lining, for example ).

Thanks for the info. This one is not a Western flute, so there is no
head lining. The flute was made in two halves (like a piece of tubing
sliced longways in two) which need to be joined. Playing will tend to
cause condensation which could build up inside, so the glue should be
fairly impervious to water.

JD

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 22:07:06 +0000, JakeD wrote:

Thanks for the info. This one is not a Western flute, so there is no
head lining. The flute was made in two halves (like a piece of tubing
sliced longways in two) which need to be joined. Playing will tend to
cause condensation which could build up inside, so the glue should be
fairly impervious to water.

PS. I've never heard of shellac being used as an adhesive before.
Perhaps I should try it... Is the regular type (sold as a type of
varnish) suitable?

JD

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 22:07:06 +0000, JakeD wrote:

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 21:29:57 +0000, Stephen Howard
wrote:

What part of the flute d'you need this kind of glue for?

There are very few glued parts on a period flute, and where there are
they're glued with shellac ( the head lining, for example ).

Thanks for the info. This one is not a Western flute, so there is no
head lining. The flute was made in two halves (like a piece of tubing
sliced longways in two) which need to be joined. Playing will tend to
cause condensation which could build up inside, so the glue should be
fairly impervious to water.

These type of 'native' flutes were glued together with resin,
typically obtained from Pitch Pine trees. They were often additionally
bound with hide ties, or sometimes covered in skin.
If you want to keep it authentic you'll need to find a Pitch Pine tree
( or do a google for "pine pitch" - some specialist retailers sell
it....the dried stuff is violin rosin ).

Shellac is quite a common adhesive for woodwind instruments - its
chief properties being that it melts easily and sets quite hard. Flute
head liners, as mentioned, is a typical application, as is securing
metal tenon sockets. It's still commonly used for setting pads. You
can buy standard flake shellac from good decorators stores under the
Liberon name.
I wouldn't recommend it for your application...there will be
insufficient surface area to maintain a good bond once the wood starts
moving - and it wouldn't be authentic to the type of flute you're
making.

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{who is at}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk

I remember once rading about how the adhesive sap (resin) could be
extracted from pine wood. Do you happen to know how it was done?

It's hard to avoid! Buy any large quantity of pine and some of it will
be waste due to exposed resin pockets. I think I have a jam jar with a
bit in somewhere.

On Dec 10, 5:38 pm, JakeD wrote:
Does anyone know where I can buy casein glue, hide glue, or some
other *natural*, (i.e., animal or vegetable) water-resistant glue for
hardwood? (I only need a small amount!)


Hide glue isn't waterproof. That's actually an advatage sometimes.
You can take apart the chair, or whatever, and reglue it.

BTW, I mean the sort of hide glue wher you mix pellets with water in a
little cooker and then apply with a brush hot.

Robert

On 10 Dec, 21:11, JakeD wrote:
On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 12:17:26 -0800 (PST), robgraham

wrote:
I cannot immediately find the confirmation of this but as far as a I
can remember cascamite was one of the first synthetic glues and was
originally made using milk as a basis

The original Cascamite, or at least the powdered stuff in a tin I
recall from the 1960s, was, as far as I'm aware casein glue. (Casein
being a protein by-product of milk, as I understand it.)

One of the WW2 twin engined
aircraft (can't remember it's name now) was made of wood using this
glue and always smelt of sour milk. #

Probably the de Havilland Mosquito.http://tinyurl.com/3brdxn

JD

That's the fellow - thanks for the link; very interesting.

This is now going definitely OT - my apologies ! My brother has an
overhead router (big machine weighing several cwt) which he was able
to track back through its manufacturers to being an ex wartime De
Havilland machine. It uses a 50Hz mains induction motor to drive a
400Hz aircraft generator for a 400HZ induction spindle motor hence
getting enough cutter speed for the wooden components.

Rob

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 01:35:03 -0800 (PST), RobertL
wrote:

Does anyone know where I can buy casein glue, hide glue, or some
other *natural*, (i.e., animal or vegetable) water-resistant glue for
hardwood? (I only need a small amount!)


Hide glue isn't waterproof. That's actually an advatage sometimes.
You can take apart the chair, or whatever, and reglue it.

BTW, I mean the sort of hide glue wher you mix pellets with water in a
little cooker and then apply with a brush hot.

Yes, I remember that from when I restored an old lute once.
A little research now suggests that casein glue is rather more
resistant to damp. But so far I have not been able to find any of the
natural stuff. All I have found is a synthetic version. I'm wondering
if I can simply use casein protein powder from a sports nutrition
outlet.

JD

JakeD wrote:
On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 01:35:03 -0800 (PST), RobertL
wrote:

Does anyone know where I can buy casein glue, hide glue, or some
other *natural*, (i.e., animal or vegetable) water-resistant glue for
hardwood? (I only need a small amount!)

Hide glue isn't waterproof. That's actually an advatage sometimes.
You can take apart the chair, or whatever, and reglue it.

BTW, I mean the sort of hide glue wher you mix pellets with water in a
little cooker and then apply with a brush hot.

Yes, I remember that from when I restored an old lute once.
A little research now suggests that casein glue is rather more
resistant to damp. But so far I have not been able to find any of the
natural stuff. All I have found is a synthetic version. I'm wondering
if I can simply use casein protein powder from a sports nutrition
outlet.


Use cascamite. It IS fairly wet proof. Not totally though.

I think the standard aircraft glue was Aerolite 306..a urea formaldehyde
type glue IIRC.

You painted one bit of wood with formic acid and the other with
something made out of a powder paste. Set rock hard.

Theser glues were almost totally replaced by PVA and epoxy/synthetic
resins repsectively..for non waterproof/waterproof applications.

Now I am prepared to admit that the acoustic properties of modern glues
may be subtly different, but as far as structural properties go, the old
'natural' glues were more or less *rubbish*.



JD

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:43:27 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:



Use cascamite. It IS fairly wet proof. Not totally though.

I think the standard aircraft glue was Aerolite 306..a urea formaldehyde
type glue IIRC.

You painted one bit of wood with formic acid and the other with
something made out of a powder paste. Set rock hard.

Theser glues were almost totally replaced by PVA and epoxy/synthetic
resins repsectively..for non waterproof/waterproof applications.

Now I am prepared to admit that the acoustic properties of modern glues
may be subtly different, but as far as structural properties go, the old
'natural' glues were more or less *rubbish*.

He wanted to keep it 'authentic' though.
If that's not an issue then bog-standard Araldite is the stuff to go
for in this instance.

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{whoisat}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk

Stephen Howard wrote:
On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:43:27 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


Use cascamite. It IS fairly wet proof. Not totally though.

I think the standard aircraft glue was Aerolite 306..a urea formaldehyde
type glue IIRC.

You painted one bit of wood with formic acid and the other with
something made out of a powder paste. Set rock hard.

Theser glues were almost totally replaced by PVA and epoxy/synthetic
resins repsectively..for non waterproof/waterproof applications.

Now I am prepared to admit that the acoustic properties of modern glues
may be subtly different, but as far as structural properties go, the old
'natural' glues were more or less *rubbish*.

He wanted to keep it 'authentic' though.
If that's not an issue then bog-standard Araldite is the stuff to go
for in this instance.


Hmm. I haven't used bog standard araldite for years. Never got a good
join without using an oven to set it.

Authentic glues would have been calves foot probably..maybe shellac and
alcohol..'knotting' or 'stopper' would be the easiest way to get that.

Thats not even hugely waterproof either..traditional waterproofing was
wax or tar, neither of which are supremely good adhesives.





Regards,

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:59:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Stephen Howard wrote:
snip

He wanted to keep it 'authentic' though.
If that's not an issue then bog-standard Araldite is the stuff to go
for in this instance.


Hmm. I haven't used bog standard araldite for years. Never got a good
join without using an oven to set it.

I've never had any problems with it - I usually warm the mix before
application, particularly if I've added a pigment. I avoid the 'rapid'
version though.

Authentic glues would have been calves foot probably..maybe shellac and
alcohol..'knotting' or 'stopper' would be the easiest way to get that.

In this instance the authentic glue is Pine Pitch - it's an American
'split bore' flute. They were obviously prone to coming apart, as
original examples are often bound with hide ties.

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{whoisat}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk