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Default water softeners?

Hello,

Has anyone used water "softeners" like the one screwfix sell, part no.
20315 or in conjunction with a sediment filter as part no. 72063

If so, what are your opinions?

I put "softener" in quote because I am not sure whether they actually
soften. I notice screwfix do not mention "softening" and choose the
phrase "scale reduction" instead.

We are in hard water area and getting bored of having to de scale the
kettle! I also wonder what the inside of the washing machine must look
like but perhaps I have been made paranoid by those calgon adverts?

Do these make a big difference; are they worth it; and if so, is it
worth paying more for the one with the sediment filter?

I notice that in the same section screwfix sell "magnetic scale
reducers" and "electronic scale reducers" which I thought were snake
oil? Perhaps you will tell me if I am wrong?
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"Fred" wrote in message
...
Hello,

Has anyone used water "softeners" like the one screwfix sell, part no.
20315 or in conjunction with a sediment filter as part no. 72063

If so, what are your opinions?

I put "softener" in quote because I am not sure whether they actually
soften. I notice screwfix do not mention "softening" and choose the
phrase "scale reduction" instead.

We are in hard water area and getting bored of having to de scale the
kettle! I also wonder what the inside of the washing machine must look
like but perhaps I have been made paranoid by those calgon adverts?

Do these make a big difference; are they worth it; and if so, is it
worth paying more for the one with the sediment filter?

I notice that in the same section screwfix sell "magnetic scale
reducers" and "electronic scale reducers" which I thought were snake
oil? Perhaps you will tell me if I am wrong?


AIUI; 'hard' water has dissolved 'bit's in it that you can't see but deposit
themselves on the insides of kettles / taps / irons / everywhere.

I 'looked' at these 'We can't tell you why it works, but grease our palms
with silver and we'll let you take one away with you' devices and basically
couldn't comprehend what they were supposed to do nor get overwhelmed by a
desire to part with hard-earned money.

Eventually after much reading of the DIY groups webpages and reading the
discussions, I purchased a 'proper' Resin cartridge cum Salt 'Water
Softener'. It's brilliant! I can pretend to 'understand' how it works; put
Salt IN and the nasty bits go OUT. No magnetic fields, pulsing or static,
doing something 'magic' to the water .... just plain old Sodium IN, Calcium
OUT.

Astoundingly- everything that water comes into contact with; my little body,
my hair, the bath, toilet, sink surfaces; handbasins, worktops, oven
fascias, clothes, etc. etc. become easy to clean.
No more rinse-aid, no battery of cleansing products, the saving on
detergents etc. is impressive.
I can't quantify it because I never kept financial records to that level of
granularity - but we hardly ever buy such cleansers anymore; bath bubble
stuff, perhaps purchased weekly now lasts for several months ; ....

Although my opinion is biased but I wouldn't 'trust' any of the devices that
didn't have a Calcium~Sodium Ion exchange mechanism .

But as they say; a fool and his money are soon parted and these vendors
haven't gone bankrupt overestimating the gullibility or intelligence of
their market.

--

Brian


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Default water softeners?

Brian Sharrock wrote:
"Fred" wrote in message

AIUI; 'hard' water has dissolved 'bit's in it that you can't see but deposit
themselves on the insides of kettles / taps / irons / everywhere.

I 'looked' at these 'We can't tell you why it works, but grease our palms
with silver and we'll let you take one away with you' devices and basically
couldn't comprehend what they were supposed to do nor get overwhelmed by a
desire to part with hard-earned money.

Eventually after much reading of the DIY groups webpages and reading the
discussions, I purchased a 'proper' Resin cartridge cum Salt 'Water
Softener'. It's brilliant! I can pretend to 'understand' how it works; put
Salt IN and the nasty bits go OUT. No magnetic fields, pulsing or static,
doing something 'magic' to the water .... just plain old Sodium IN, Calcium
OUT.

Astoundingly- everything that water comes into contact with; my little body,
my hair, the bath, toilet, sink surfaces; handbasins, worktops, oven
fascias, clothes, etc. etc. become easy to clean.
No more rinse-aid, no battery of cleansing products, the saving on
detergents etc. is impressive.
I can't quantify it because I never kept financial records to that level of
granularity - but we hardly ever buy such cleansers anymore; bath bubble
stuff, perhaps purchased weekly now lasts for several months ; ....

Although my opinion is biased but I wouldn't 'trust' any of the devices that
didn't have a Calcium~Sodium Ion exchange mechanism .

But as they say; a fool and his money are soon parted and these vendors
haven't gone bankrupt overestimating the gullibility or intelligence of
their market.

--

Brian



Would you be kind enough to state what softener you bought and from
where? Also, what kind of running costs are associated with it (e.g. how
much salt does it get through).

Thanks,

Styx
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Default water softeners?

On 1 Nov, 16:57, Fred wrote:

We are in hard water area and getting bored of having to de scale the
kettle! I also wonder what the inside of the washing machine must look
like but perhaps I have been made paranoid by those calgon adverts?


If you want to know, get your hands on the (Haynes) Washing Machine
Manual - getting the heater out is two blade connections (plus another
for earth), a nut to loosen (8mm on mine), tap the nut and pull
(hard!) the heater out towards the back. Our water is probably the
hardest (chalk area!) and 6 years' worth of scale wasn't too bad. No
calgon snake oil either. Chip what you can off with something wooden
or plastic (so as not to damage the element). Run it under the tap -
doesn't need to shine, leave it somewhere to dry off, then give it a
shove back in, tighten nut so it seals around its gasket and then
reconnect the wires. I only did it as part of a main bearing change -
that's holding up very well so far.

J.

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Default water softeners?

On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 16:57:30 +0000, Fred wrote:

Hello,

Has anyone used water "softeners" like the one screwfix sell, part no.
20315 or in conjunction with a sediment filter as part no. 72063

If so, what are your opinions?

I put "softener" in quote because I am not sure whether they actually
soften. I notice screwfix do not mention "softening" and choose the
phrase "scale reduction" instead.


So why do YOU call it a softener (even in quotes)? It's not: it's a scale
inhibitor plus sediment filter.

20315 http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=20315 is just a scale
inhibitor.

See
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...le_I nhibitor

I notice that in the same section screwfix sell "magnetic scale
reducers" and "electronic scale reducers" which I thought were snake
oil?


Yup


--
John Stumbles

I used to be forgetful but now I ... um ....


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Default water softeners?

In message . com, Part
timer writes
We are in hard water area and getting bored of having to de scale the
kettle! I also wonder what the inside of the washing machine must look
like but perhaps I have been made paranoid by those calgon adverts?


fitting a water softener will not stop your kettle scaling up - softened
water is neither pleasant nor good to drink due to its salt content.

--
Si
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Default water softeners?


"Styx" wrote in message
...
Brian Sharrock wrote:

snip




Would you be kind enough to state what softener you bought


After careful; consideration and much internal debate; I went for the twin
cylinder water-meter-motor powered type. { Essentially, any cylinder will
become 'spent' when it's resin has absorbed /exchanged its sodium ions for
calcium ions. The cylinder needs to be purged by flushing through with brine
when calcium ions are exchanged / given-up and the resin is refreshed -
ready to 'soften' a fresh load of 'hard' water. Some (electrical) controlled
devices determine when to purge by means of a timer set to pump brine
through the cylinder(s) at a predetermined time. The type I bought uses an
intergrating water-driven 'meter' which decides on a volume used basis when
to purge the cylinder .Its claimed that 'salt' is not wasted.]

and from where?


A web search revealed that 'West Midlands Water Company' had the least
expensive model (at the time).

Also, what kind of running costs are associated with it (e.g. how much
salt does it get through).


I purchase salt off the interent for convenience - a quantity / price break
for me is ten packets of two 4Kgs blocks which costs about £35 (delivered to
the door).. A pair of salt blocks lasts three adults (showers, baths,
washing machine, dishwasher, tolet etc. ) for _about_ one month.

According to my 'Salt Consumption' spreadsheet;- in one calendar year the
machine consumed 31 blocks a a , calculated, cost of £51.


Thanks,

Styx


HTH

--

Brian



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Default water softeners?

Part timer wrote:
On 1 Nov, 16:57, Fred wrote:

We are in hard water area and getting bored of having to de scale the
kettle! I also wonder what the inside of the washing machine must look
like but perhaps I have been made paranoid by those calgon adverts?


If you want to know, get your hands on the (Haynes) Washing Machine
Manual - getting the heater out is two blade connections (plus another
for earth), a nut to loosen (8mm on mine), tap the nut and pull
(hard!) the heater out towards the back. Our water is probably the
hardest (chalk area!) and 6 years' worth of scale wasn't too bad. No
calgon snake oil either.


Calgon isn't snake oil; it's just really expensive for what it is. You
can buy Sodium Sesquicarbonate softener in Tesco for a fraction of the
price of Calgon.
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Styx wrote:
Brian Sharrock wrote:
"Fred" wrote in message
AIUI; 'hard' water has dissolved 'bit's in it that you can't see but
deposit themselves on the insides of kettles / taps / irons / everywhere.

I 'looked' at these 'We can't tell you why it works, but grease our
palms with silver and we'll let you take one away with you' devices
and basically couldn't comprehend what they were supposed to do nor
get overwhelmed by a desire to part with hard-earned money.

Eventually after much reading of the DIY groups webpages and reading
the discussions, I purchased a 'proper' Resin cartridge cum Salt
'Water Softener'. It's brilliant! I can pretend to 'understand' how it
works; put Salt IN and the nasty bits go OUT. No magnetic fields,
pulsing or static, doing something 'magic' to the water .... just
plain old Sodium IN, Calcium OUT.

Astoundingly- everything that water comes into contact with; my little
body, my hair, the bath, toilet, sink surfaces; handbasins, worktops,
oven fascias, clothes, etc. etc. become easy to clean.
No more rinse-aid, no battery of cleansing products, the saving on
detergents etc. is impressive.
I can't quantify it because I never kept financial records to that
level of granularity - but we hardly ever buy such cleansers anymore;
bath bubble stuff, perhaps purchased weekly now lasts for several
months ; ....

Although my opinion is biased but I wouldn't 'trust' any of the
devices that didn't have a Calcium~Sodium Ion exchange mechanism .

But as they say; a fool and his money are soon parted and these
vendors haven't gone bankrupt overestimating the gullibility or
intelligence of their market.

--

Brian



Would you be kind enough to state what softener you bought and from
where? Also, what kind of running costs are associated with it (e.g. how
much salt does it get through).


£5 a month

Savd easily by how long the soap lasts and the cleaners we don't have to
buy to take off limescale.


Mine as about £500, and detects how much water goes through so it klnos
when to recycle etc.

Only problem is it restricts flow rate a bit. And takes up a whole
kitchen unit.



Thanks,

Styx

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Si wrote:
In message . com, Part
timer writes
We are in hard water area and getting bored of having to de scale the
kettle! I also wonder what the inside of the washing machine must look
like but perhaps I have been made paranoid by those calgon adverts?


fitting a water softener will not stop your kettle scaling up - softened
water is neither pleasant nor good to drink due to its salt content.

It has no salt: just sodium carbonate.

It tastes a bit like mineral water. I rather like it.


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Brian Sharrock wrote:
"Styx" wrote in message
...
Brian Sharrock wrote:

snip


Would you be kind enough to state what softener you bought


After careful; consideration and much internal debate; I went for the twin
cylinder water-meter-motor powered type. { Essentially, any cylinder will
become 'spent' when it's resin has absorbed /exchanged its sodium ions for
calcium ions. The cylinder needs to be purged by flushing through with brine
when calcium ions are exchanged / given-up and the resin is refreshed -
ready to 'soften' a fresh load of 'hard' water. Some (electrical) controlled
devices determine when to purge by means of a timer set to pump brine
through the cylinder(s) at a predetermined time. The type I bought uses an
intergrating water-driven 'meter' which decides on a volume used basis when
to purge the cylinder .Its claimed that 'salt' is not wasted.]

and from where?


A web search revealed that 'West Midlands Water Company' had the least
expensive model (at the time).

Also, what kind of running costs are associated with it (e.g. how much
salt does it get through).


I purchase salt off the interent for convenience - a quantity / price break
for me is ten packets of two 4Kgs blocks which costs about £35 (delivered to
the door).. A pair of salt blocks lasts three adults (showers, baths,
washing machine, dishwasher, tolet etc. ) for _about_ one month.

According to my 'Salt Consumption' spreadsheet;- in one calendar year the
machine consumed 31 blocks a a , calculated, cost of £51.

Thanks,

Styx


HTH


Thanks, that's very useful information. I live in the East Midlands and
the water around here seems to be very hard - constantly having to deal
with scale in the bath/shower/toilet, not to mention the damage it may
be doing to the CH.

Styx
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The Natural Philosopher wrote:

£5 a month

Savd easily by how long the soap lasts and the cleaners we don't have to
buy to take off limescale.


Mine as about £500, and detects how much water goes through so it klnos
when to recycle etc.

Only problem is it restricts flow rate a bit. And takes up a whole
kitchen unit.



I figured around £500 to £700, last time I looked into them (about 6
months ago).

Any estimate on how much the flow rate drops? When we had a new Combi
boiler fitted 2 years ago, we measured the flow rate a found it was
enough for the combi with a thermostatic mixer-type shower running of
it. We actually get a pretty good pressure of water at the shower head,
but if a softener drops the flow rate too much that might all go to pot...

Styx
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Styx wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

£5 a month

Savd easily by how long the soap lasts and the cleaners we don't have
to buy to take off limescale.


Mine as about £500, and detects how much water goes through so it
klnos when to recycle etc.

Only problem is it restricts flow rate a bit. And takes up a whole
kitchen unit.



I figured around £500 to £700, last time I looked into them (about 6
months ago).

Any estimate on how much the flow rate drops? When we had a new Combi
boiler fitted 2 years ago, we measured the flow rate a found it was
enough for the combi with a thermostatic mixer-type shower running of
it. We actually get a pretty good pressure of water at the shower head,
but if a softener drops the flow rate too much that might all go to pot...


Its good enough, but pick a model that will take 22mm pipes and has a
high flow.

Styx

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"Styx" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

£5 a month

Savd easily by how long the soap lasts and the cleaners we don't have to
buy to take off limescale.


Mine as about £500, and detects how much water goes through so it klnos
when to recycle etc.

Only problem is it restricts flow rate a bit. And takes up a whole
kitchen unit.



I figured around £500 to £700, last time I looked into them (about 6
months ago).

Any estimate on how much the flow rate drops? When we had a new Combi
boiler fitted 2 years ago, we measured the flow rate a found it was enough
for the combi with a thermostatic mixer-type shower running of it. We
actually get a pretty good pressure of water at the shower head, but if a
softener drops the flow rate too much that might all go to pot...

Styx


The double cylinder type of softener doesn't suffer from any diminution of
flow rate. one cylinder is always available for the 'path'. When the
integrator in the mechanism determines that the resin in one cylinder is
depleted a valve switches the incoming flow through the 'quiescent cylinder.
This depleted cylinder is then purged and once refreshed becomes available
for switching into the flow.
A single cylinder system will of necessity permit unaoftened water to be
allowed past itself during the purging cycle.

The pipework is fitting a set of valves into a 'Pi' configuration (to permit
isolation) . My unit is about the size of two/three large packets of
Cornflakes- it doesn't occupy a 'whole' kitchen unit' even though I left
lots of space for access, there's lots of space for brillo pads, sponges,
pan scourers, washing-up liquid and the other junk that gets shoved into a
kitchen cabinet.

--

Brian



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On Fri, 02 Nov 2007 00:10:17 GMT, John Stumbles
wrote:

So why do YOU call it a softener (even in quotes)? It's not: it's a scale
inhibitor plus sediment filter.


Since it seems to contain some sort of ion exchange resin to "inhibit"
the scale, I presumed it did so by the process of softening.

I am wondering, having read the other replies, whether this is half a
softener, in as much as it seems to contain a cartridge of resin but
lacks the recharge mechanism?

Does anyone know exactly what this is and how it works?

I did note that screwfix did not go as far as calling it a softener
and that's why I used the quotes to signify that I was not sure. That
it appeared on the same page as some other magical scale inhibitors
made me ask whether this too was just another of the same.


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On 2007-11-02 17:31:07 +0000, Fred said:

On Fri, 02 Nov 2007 00:10:17 GMT, John Stumbles
wrote:

So why do YOU call it a softener (even in quotes)? It's not: it's a scale
inhibitor plus sediment filter.


Since it seems to contain some sort of ion exchange resin to "inhibit"
the scale, I presumed it did so by the process of softening.

I am wondering, having read the other replies, whether this is half a
softener, in as much as it seems to contain a cartridge of resin but
lacks the recharge mechanism?

Does anyone know exactly what this is and how it works?

I did note that screwfix did not go as far as calling it a softener
and that's why I used the quotes to signify that I was not sure. That
it appeared on the same page as some other magical scale inhibitors
made me ask whether this too was just another of the same.


If it claims to offer descaling, then the other technology is phosphate
dosing. There are products that do this such as Combimate, whereby a
small amount of chemical is leached into the water and prevents scaling
of surfaces such as the heat exchanger in a boiler or HW cylinder.
It doesn't soften the water in the sense of ion exchange so no saving
on detergents. The chemical in that one is in pellet form and added
every few months.

If this device is the same technology, then perhaps it's a cartridge
replacement. The same type of mechanical container forms the basis of
water filters, reverse osmosis devices and the like and these all have
exchangeable cartridges.

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In message , The Natural
Philosopher writes
Si wrote:
In message . com,
Part timer writes
We are in hard water area and getting bored of having to de scale the
kettle! I also wonder what the inside of the washing machine must look
like but perhaps I have been made paranoid by those calgon adverts?

fitting a water softener will not stop your kettle scaling up -
softened water is neither pleasant nor good to drink due to its salt
content.

It has no salt: just sodium carbonate.


Whatever, it's not healthy to drink. Or am I wrong about that?

--
Si
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On 2007-11-02 18:38:54 +0000, Si $3o&m said:

In message , The Natural
Philosopher writes
Si wrote:
In message . com, Part
timer writes
We are in hard water area and getting bored of having to de scale the
kettle! I also wonder what the inside of the washing machine must look
like but perhaps I have been made paranoid by those calgon adverts?
fitting a water softener will not stop your kettle scaling up -
softened water is neither pleasant nor good to drink due to its salt
content.

It has no salt: just sodium carbonate.


Whatever, it's not healthy to drink. Or am I wrong about that?


It isn't unhealthy particularly.

As a comparison.....

There's about 110mg of salt in the average slice of bread, a 300ml
glass of milk has about the same and a litre of softened water contains
about 75mg.

Whether you like the taste or not is something else.



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In message , Andy Hall writes
On 2007-11-02 18:38:54 +0000, Si $3o&m said:
In message , The Natural
Philosopher writes
Si wrote:
softened water is neither pleasant nor good to drink due to its
salt content.

It has no salt: just sodium carbonate.


Whatever, it's not healthy to drink. Or am I wrong about that?


It isn't unhealthy particularly.

As a comparison.....

There's about 110mg of salt in the average slice of bread, a 300ml
glass of milk has about the same and a litre of softened water contains
about 75mg.

Whether you like the taste or not is something else.

thanks.

--
Si
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"Si" $3o&m wrote in message
...
In message , The Natural
Philosopher writes
Si wrote:
In message . com, Part
timer writes
We are in hard water area and getting bored of having to de scale the
kettle! I also wonder what the inside of the washing machine must look
like but perhaps I have been made paranoid by those calgon adverts?
fitting a water softener will not stop your kettle scaling up -
softened water is neither pleasant nor good to drink due to its salt
content.

It has no salt: just sodium carbonate.


Whatever, it's not healthy to drink. Or am I wrong about that?

--



The water produced is 'Softened' ; that's not equivalent to _Soft Water_.
Soft Water has flowed 'cross granite and /or been filtered thorough
volcanoes ..... although soft water pours out of taps in Liverpool and
Lancashire it bears little resemblance to the diluted chalk that exits my
taps in a ;Hard Water' area.

The 'softened' water has an elevated amount of Sodium but I can't taste it.
It seems to make a decent cup of tea / coffee without any scum and both
beverages are transparent. It's great for bathing in, washing clothes /
dishes etc. etc. ...but not apparently for watering plants.

The 'experts' say if shouldn't be drunk - it's not supposedly potable - but
the same experts have lectured me about the evilness of bacon butties,
hamburgers, chips, red-meat, dairy products,
chocolates, red wine, whiskey ..... .....'

Drinking 'softened' water hasn't done me any h

a

r

rrr ...gh!

--

Brian




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Si wrote:
In message , The Natural
Philosopher writes
Si wrote:
In message . com,
Part timer writes
We are in hard water area and getting bored of having to de scale the
kettle! I also wonder what the inside of the washing machine must look
like but perhaps I have been made paranoid by those calgon adverts?
fitting a water softener will not stop your kettle scaling up -
softened water is neither pleasant nor good to drink due to its salt
content.

It has no salt: just sodium carbonate.


Whatever, it's not healthy to drink. Or am I wrong about that?


Its perfectly healthy to drink.

Unless you go for about 20 gallons a day, in which case your sodium
level will be boosted as much as if you had eaten a bag of crisps.

--
Si

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On Fri, 02 Nov 2007 17:31:07 +0000, Fred wrote:

On Fri, 02 Nov 2007 00:10:17 GMT, John Stumbles
wrote:

So why do YOU call it a softener (even in quotes)? It's not: it's a scale
inhibitor plus sediment filter.


Since it seems to contain some sort of ion exchange resin to "inhibit"
the scale, I presumed it did so by the process of softening.


Where does it say anything about ion exchange resin? I'm looking at:
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=72063


--
John Stumbles

Fundamentalist agnostic
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On 2007-11-03 11:44:59 +0000, John Stumbles said:

On Fri, 02 Nov 2007 17:31:07 +0000, Fred wrote:

On Fri, 02 Nov 2007 00:10:17 GMT, John Stumbles
wrote:

So why do YOU call it a softener (even in quotes)? It's not: it's a scale
inhibitor plus sediment filter.


Since it seems to contain some sort of ion exchange resin to "inhibit"
the scale, I presumed it did so by the process of softening.


Where does it say anything about ion exchange resin? I'm looking at:
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=72063


The answer lies with catalogue number 88345 which is a replacement cartridge.

As suspected, it's a polyphosphate dosing system. Scale reduction,
yes. Softening, no.


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On Sat, 3 Nov 2007 12:00:32 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

The answer lies with catalogue number 88345 which is a replacement cartridge.

As suspected, it's a polyphosphate dosing system. Scale reduction,
yes. Softening, no.


Sorry if I got the terminology incorrect? As you've already found out,
the replacement cartridge says it contains phosphate so I assumed that
the phosphate ions were exchanged with the sodium/chloride ones.
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Default water softeners?

On 2007-11-04 17:45:33 +0000, Fred said:

On Sat, 3 Nov 2007 12:00:32 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

The answer lies with catalogue number 88345 which is a replacement cartridge.

As suspected, it's a polyphosphate dosing system. Scale reduction,
yes. Softening, no.


Sorry if I got the terminology incorrect? As you've already found out,
the replacement cartridge says it contains phosphate so I assumed that
the phosphate ions were exchanged with the sodium/chloride ones.


Not really.

AIUI, there is some kind of coating effect on the heated surfaces that
prevents scale from forming



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Default water softeners?

On Sun, 4 Nov 2007 19:06:20 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

the replacement cartridge says it contains phosphate so I assumed that
the phosphate ions were exchanged with the sodium/chloride ones.


Not really.

AIUI, there is some kind of coating effect on the heated surfaces that
prevents scale from forming


Does it really work?

If it had been ion exchange I would have believed in it but the
phosphate coating of elements sounds to me much like magnetising the
water molecule and all those other daft claims! I am happy to be
proven wrong though.
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Default water softeners?

On 2007-11-11 16:47:52 +0000, Fred said:

On Sun, 4 Nov 2007 19:06:20 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

the replacement cartridge says it contains phosphate so I assumed that
the phosphate ions were exchanged with the sodium/chloride ones.


Not really.

AIUI, there is some kind of coating effect on the heated surfaces that
prevents scale from forming


Does it really work?

If it had been ion exchange I would have believed in it but the
phosphate coating of elements sounds to me much like magnetising the
water molecule and all those other daft claims! I am happy to be
proven wrong though.


That one is kosher and there is a known mechanism for it to work

Google for phosphate dosing descaling.





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