UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions.

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Default UK RICS report says solar takes 208 years to repay...nonsense! Help needed!


"Derek Geldard" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 17:04:39 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Jonathan" wrote in message
groups.com...


... "An
Inconvenient Truth", which was cleared to be shown in UK schools after
axe-grinding truck driver and political activist Stewart Dimmock
failed in his case to have the film banned. Although the judge


A renowned expert ...


As if Al Gore knows any better ...


He knows America is on to the fact that he is a fool; so he now courts
international glory, hoping for a more gullible public. Of course, the folks
here in the US are pretty much the world's leaders in stupidity. In fact,
with Al Gore, it has now become a major export.



DG




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On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 19:11:45 +0100, Eeyore
wrote:

Jonathan wrote:

Mike has somehow managed to knacker OE so it doesn't put the quotes
properly, so I've re-inserted them to avoid confusion....

On 14 Oct, 12:12, "Mike" wrote:
"Jonathan" wrote in message


I would need to alter the loft to take the weight of the solar panels too,


I've never come across this - unless your loft is of extremely poor or
degraded construction. OR you may have been looking at a combination
of "old-tech" flat panels AND a weak roof.


Plenty of Victorian era houses wouldn't meet today's building regs.


They, *may*, probably, be alright. ;-))

But a modern trussed roof (As opposed to what builders call a "Proper"
roof) is only designed to support the weight and wind loadings of the
roof itself and the ceiling that hangs from it.

DG

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On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 17:09:35 +0100, D Moodie wrote:

Jonathan wrote:
On 14 Oct, 10:41, Eeyore
wrote:
Jonathan wrote:


£755 for loft insulation?
I can certainly believe that one with today's health and safety requirements. Maybe £300 in materials
and £455 labour ?


Sorry, but not even close to a cigar! Ours was £150 for a complete
replacement. The figures are he
http://www.oxford.gov.uk/environment/insulation.cfm
For convenience, the figures a

250mm loft insulation where NONE at present
Installation: £210-230 (installer) From £170 (DIY)
Annual saving on fuel bills £80-100
Cost recovered : 2-3 years (installer) Around 2 years (DIY)



Yes, the ones quoted in the weekend papers tend to be out by about 150%
in a lot of cases, and in the case of central heating replacement don't
take into account that you may well be changing the system in any case.

However I find the figures quoted in the website you reference equally
misleading. Every item seems to have an asterix, but no corresponding
explaination.. I wonder if this is the cost after some sort of grant.


For example cavity wall insulation installed for £280..!!!! alternative
green sites even suggest this is closer to £500
http://www.greenconsumerguide.com/article89.html


They are suggesting that labour for installing loft installation will be
less than 100 quid, I find that suspect.

They suggest that diy underfloor installtion will be less than £100...

I'd really like to know where all their materials come from... that
would be genuinely useful information.

People can make these numbers come up with whatever they want... a bit
like those charlatan windmill salemen. For credible results, more
information is certialy required.. as you note..and you should never let
journalists free with this sort of stuff as they are incapable of any
sort of critical analysis.

But how about your own ethical figures for a solar thermal installation
what does that come out with? wild ass guess install 1500-2000, saving
75-100, payback potenially 20years.?


I had cavity wall insulation put into a three-bed semi about three years
ago (Manchester area) - cost was around two hundred and fifty quid.

SteveW
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Eeyore wrote:

Jonathan wrote:


On 14 Oct, 17:04, "Bob Eager" wrote:

On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 15:31:33 UTC, Jonathan


And hey, 9 inconclusive statements in a 2 hour film looks a bit better
than 8 out of 8 entirely inaccurate and misleading figures in a report!

But a lot of them aren't inaccurate, are they? They represent reasonable
costs. Or, show me where you can get a good quality TRV installed for £9
all in.


Assuming a labour cost of £80 per hour, even a chimp could replace 4
valves an hour, allow an hour for drain-down, an hour for test, and an
hour for a fag and for a 10 rad house you have £100 for the valves+
£360 for the labour = £460. Tell me how you'd bump that up to £2,240?

We've already disproved the loft insulation and tank lagging costs,



Where did you disprove the loft insulation costs ?

I just looked at some loft insulation in one of the DIY stores. It's ~ £14 for a
4m roll of 200mm thick insulation, 370mm wide.
http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav/na...&isSearch=true

Calculating the celing area for my house, I'd need 5m x 8m for the main roof,
another 2.5m x 3m for the remainder of the L shaped bit, and about another 3m x
4m for a single storey extension. That's 59.5m2

Each roll is 1.48m2.

So that's 40 rolls. At £14 ea that's £560 !

And that's BEFORE labour !


I live in a small house, 3 bedrooms and it cost me less than £150-00 to
add an extra 4 inch of batten to the base and fill with another 4 inch
of insulation. The only stuff I bought from the sheds was the plastic
covered insulation that goes around the edges at the front and back of
the house, where I was liable to get bitten by the insulation.

Dave
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Jim wrote:

"Jonathan" wrote in message
oups.com...

On 14 Oct, 15:37, Eeyore
wrote:


Par for the course. Even the Nobel comittee were ignorant enough to get
taken in
by Al Gore's comedy film.


Hmmm, I didn't know he made a comedy film, but the film the Nobel
comittee were concerned with was the Oscar-winning documentary "An
Inconvenient Truth", which was cleared to be shown in UK schools after
axe-grinding truck driver and political activist Stewart Dimmock
failed in his case to have the film banned. Although the judge
commented that there were 9 inconclusive statements in the two hour
film... "[...] it is important to be clear that the central arguments
put forward in An Inconvenient Truth - that climate change is mainly
caused by man-made emissions of greenhouse gases



So, if it's not solar insolation causing global warming, which is not
necessarily a bad thing, why are the Martian ice caps melting? The emissions
from that damned little robot NASA has running around????
Some people are beyond help.


LOL

Sanity at last :-)

Dave


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On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 01:57:46 -0700, Jonathan
wrote:

I work very hard to market ethically, using the "safest low figures"
as provided by the Energy Saving Trust and guidelines from the Solar
Trade Association


You consider them to be reliable sources?

The very, very minimum saving on an appropriate solar thermal
installation is £75 per annum per panel, in the real world it's many
times more.


Actually in the real world it's usually less, and the "per panel"
figure is twaddle because in the few peak months you simply make more
water than you can use with multiple panels. The gain of the extra
panels only occurs at either end of the summer and during winter and
is very small compared with their cost.

I'm sure even the most sceptical person in this group can
see all of the figures are utter nonsense. But what to do about an
ignorant public?


The ignorant public have been mislead by various proponents of
greenwash for decades. I haven't noticed installers and the Solar
Trade Association doing anything about countering the ludicrous
claims made on behalf of their industry.
--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/
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On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 13:58:06 -0500
"Jim" wrote:

So, if it's not solar insolation causing global warming, which is not
necessarily a bad thing, why are the Martian ice caps melting? The
emissions from that damned little robot NASA has running around????


Oh now that is wonderful - do you have a cite I can hit people
with ?

--
C:WIN | Directable Mirror Arrays
The computer obeys and wins. | A better way to focus the sun
You lose and Bill collects. | licences available see
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Jonathan wrote:

9 inconclusive statements


But the judge didn't refer to them as "inconclusive statements" did he?
The judge used the terms "inaccurate", "alarmist" and "exaggeration."

He also stated: "It is now common ground that it is not simply a science
film - although it is clear that it is based substantially on scientific
research and opinion - but that it is a political film."

And he didn't jsut pass it for exhibition in schools, he only permitted
its release with the proviso that it be issued with guidance notes to
balance Gore's "one sided views".

So it looks like Al Gore doesn't have a monopoly on untruths, you're up
there giving him a hand.
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On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 06:12:46 -0700, Jonathan
wrote:

The big problem with the CAT is that it is ALTERNATIVE not MODERN
technology. The last time I looked, they were using inefficient flat
panels from the 70's.


Actually the "modern" vacuum tubes being sold at inflated prices
pre-date the 70's by a considerable margin and were in domestic use
in the mid-70's at least. They are not exactly "high tech", their
advantage from an salesman's point of view is they look it and can be
used to fool the gullible. The problem is that in the UK they are
not all that much more effective than the flat panel.

For some unbiased data the DTI report ETSU S/P3?00275/REP/2 DTI/Pub
URN 01/1292 gives the figures for vacuum tube and flat panel systems
which were monitored over 7 months. They found little difference
between the overall system performance of flat panel and evacuated
tube systems.

In general the systems produced 75% or more of the domestic hot water
requirement during May Jun and Jul, between 50 and 75% in Aug and
Sept, Less than 30% in Oct, and about 10% from Nov to Jan rising to
20% in Feb and 40% in Mar. For most people that doesn't produce a
saving of £75 per year much less "many times more".

Indeed your favoured Energy Saving Trust in their report "Potential
for Microgeneration Study and Analysis Final Report 14th November
2005" say

"[Solar water heating is] Currently the largest microgeneration
industry, installing 2000 units annually. Generally, solar water
heating is not cost effective at present. The technology is most
effective if replacing electric heating systems."

"Solar water heating (active solar): reductions in generated energy
cost are required for break even with electrical water heating.
Break-even is not predicted for gas (or oil) boiler water heating.
This is because of high capital costs combined with low oil and gas
prices. Approximately 50% capital cost reduction is necessary for
break-even with electrical water heating by 2015 –2020."

"Solar water heating does not break-even with gas boiler water
heating, and will require large cost reductions to break-even with
electrical water heating by 2015 –2020."



--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/
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Eeyore wrote:

John Rumm wrote:

Huge wrote:

This one is £35,000 installed.
http://www.energyenv.co.uk/WindPowerKits_20Kw.asp
Payback time; 35+ years. Waste of money.

Only if you get your 20kW - few places in the UK have a consistent wind
speed of 12m/sec or better.


You're lucky to get 9m/s anywhere never mind 12 ! About 5-6m/s in much of the
South East from when I looked at it last week.


Which brings you power down to 5kW tops - so only a 140 year payback...

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 14:07:20 +0100, Mary Fisher wrote:

"Mike" wrote in message
...


A new tank would be required in the bathroom for the hot water as a
further heating coil is required.


Don't you have a boiler?

To get one with two coils inside is more expensive.


You can do your own. I'm reading this in uk.d-i-y. If you can't do it
yourself you should have deleted the group from the cross-posting.


Correct me if I'm wrong Mary but you seem to be suggesting that (a) you
don't need an extra coil for solar heating if you have a boiler (b) that
any d-i-yer worth their salt should be able to make a coil and install it
in their existing tank themselves.

More details please.

(I can't make sense of what you're saying even allowing for the fact that
you have a solartwin system.)

--
John Stumbles

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.
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Jonathan wrote:

Assuming a labour cost of £80 per hour, even a chimp could replace 4
valves an hour, allow an hour for drain-down, an hour for test, and an


Like to see the chimp...

Some are easy, however it is also easy to find one that takes a couple
of hours titting about - especially when you need to get the floor up to
move rad tails etc.



--
Cheers,

John.

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Eeyore wrote:

John Rumm wrote:

Jonathan wrote:

The figures in the graphic are in cloud cuckoo land.
£761 to lag the tank? £755 for loft insulation?? £2,240 for

It says on the graphic "hot water cylinder and pipework cover" - if this
involves lagging all the pipes in the house then the cost seems a little
low, when you consider all the making good that would be required after.

thermostatic radiator valves? At £9 per valve that's a pretty big
house!. All of the costs are between 5-20x exaggerated over real world

Close to £40 per valve with fitting I would have thought.


Wouldn't you need to drain the system to fit them ?


Probably... if doing a whole house certainly. That is another task that
can vary in difficulty and time taken as well.

--
Cheers,

John.

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On 14 Oct, 23:25, Peter Parry wrote:
low oil and gas prices.


Wow..someone doesn't pay the bills in their household

Yup, those low oil prices are the bane of my life....17p to 37.5p per
litre in 3 years. They're just giving it away, right?

As the OPEC report for Friday 6th July 2007 says:
"The OPEC Reference Basket, the main benchmark for crude oil prices,
reported a rise from $58.47/barrel, on average for March, to $66.77/
barrel by the close of June. There are a number of short-term factors
which have impacted upon and augmented the long-term underlying trend
of rising oil prices, caused by world demand outstripping supply."

And it's only going to get cheaper, and what with the rising cost of
the sun.....are we actually having a sensible discussion here, or are
people just going to keep throwing out of date figures around?

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On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 01:57:46 -0700, Jonathan wrote:

There was a graphic in the Times, illustrating some figures.
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...ic_smaller.jpg

The figures in the graphic are in cloud cuckoo land.


Well what do you expect from a newspaper artist?

£761 to lag the tank? £755 for loft insulation?? £2,240 for
thermostatic radiator valves? At £9 per valve that's a pretty big
house!.


But that's not £761 *just* to lag the tank or £2,240 *just* for TRVs is
it? As you should know if you'd spent a few minutes following the link
(in the "Building" page you link to) to the spreadsheet which gives the
quoted figures.

Most of the figures may seem unreasonably high but they say "All costs
sourced from the BCIS Housing Repair Cost Guide 2006" so presumably they're
the costs a RICS member would charge for a job, i.e. including a
substantial cut for the surveyor on top of the tradespeople's labour.

So for example the £2,240 figure is made up of:

Digital programmer £785
Delayed start thermostat £275
Thermostatic radiator valves 6off at £97 £582
Booster Pump (Assumed). £450
Uplift to Current Costs 7.08% £148

In the case of, for example, the cost for TRVs their figure is perhaps
closer to a realistic installed figure than your parts-only price.


--
John Stumbles

I'm less competitive than you


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On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 10:21:29 -0700, Jonathan wrote:

Tell me how you'd bump that up to £2,240?


See my earlier post pointing out that the quoted £2,240 is not just
for TRVs, and that the figures are given in a spreadsheet to which there
is a link in one of the articles *you* gave a link to in your original
post (but which you obviously didn't bother to read).

You may not agree with the figures given but to invent your own
(equally if not more fanciful) ones suggests that you're more interested
in rhetoric than factuality. But then you're a doubleglaz^H^H^H^H^H^Hsolar
water heating salesman, aren't you?

--
John Stumbles

I forgot to take my amnesia medecine again
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Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote:
On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 13:58:06 -0500
"Jim" wrote:

So, if it's not solar insolation causing global warming, which is not
necessarily a bad thing, why are the Martian ice caps melting? The
emissions from that damned little robot NASA has running around????


Oh now that is wonderful - do you have a cite I can hit people
with ?

You could always use Google...

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...s-warming.html

As with just about every "fact" in this debate (on both sides) its not
as simple nor clear cut as it fits appears.

VH.
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The message
from "Mary Fisher" contains these words:

Ours cost us £2000 two years ago. Our gas bills (the only other
water heating we had) were reduced by almost £300 in the first year.


There was a salesman extolling the virtues of solar heating on BBC
television news this am. Claimed installition costs was in the region
£3500 - £5000 and a saving of 10 - 15% of heating bills could be
expected. On that basis I expect Mary's gas bill would have been in the
region of £2000 - £3000 prior to the installation of solar heating.

--
Roger Chapman
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On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 17:09:35 +0100 someone who may be D Moodie
wrote this:-

For example cavity wall insulation installed for £280..!!!!


A few years ago the gas board were offering to pay part of the cost,
which brought the cost for a three bedroom house to something like
150-200 pounds.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54
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Mary Fisher wrote:

What struck me in particular was this paragraph:

"But the study from the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors shows
that some of the measures, such as solar panels to heat water, would
cost £5,000 to install but reduce average bills by only £24 a year and
would take about 208 years to pay back."

Ours cost us £2000 two years ago. Our gas bills (the only other
water heating we had) were reduced by almost £300 in the first year.


So you were paying OVER £300 a year for gas to provide hot water only ? That's a
LOT of hot water.

Graham



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On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 18:20:32 +0100 someone who may be John Rumm
wrote this:-

Even if is saves you £100/year that would still be a 50 year payback.


Simple payback period is not the only reason for doing something.
What is the simple payback period on a new kitchen, or replacing
fluorescent kitchen lights with downlighters?

This is one of those things that can make much more sense if you can DIY
it as it brings the capital costs way down.


That is true, as it is with most things.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54
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On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 15:37:52 +0100 someone who may be Eeyore
wrote this:-

Par for the course. Even the Nobel comittee were ignorant enough to get taken in
by Al Gore's comedy film.


The committee awarded the prize to the IPCC and Mr Gore for their
work in raising knowledge of the issue. Even those who believe the
science is all junk should be grown up enough to accept that they
have both raised knowledge of the issue.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54
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On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 18:43:10 +0100 someone who may be Eeyore
wrote this:-

Considering it's stuffed full of outright LIES, it damn well should have been banned.


Mr Gore's film contains more than two thousand statements. In the
recent court case they were no doubt all crawled over. None of them
were found to be lies, but nine of them were found to have been more
incomplete than they should have been. For example, on the total
melting of ice caps the film should have added the timescale for
this to happen.

Only nine statements which could be expressed more completely out of
over two thousand statements is a resounding approval of the film,
no matter how loudly some shout that it has been discredited.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54
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On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 16:02:37 -0700, Jonathan
wrote:

On 14 Oct, 23:25, Peter Parry wrote:
low oil and gas prices.


Yup, those low oil prices are the bane of my life....17p to 37.5p per
litre in 3 years. They're just giving it away, right?


They are actually very close to the EST figures - I suggest you read
their report before jumping to ill informed conclusions.

And it's only going to get cheaper, and what with the rising cost of
the sun.....are we actually having a sensible discussion here, or are
people just going to keep throwing out of date figures around?


It was you who said you used the EST as a source of information, are
you saying their report was wrong? If so on what figures do you base
that presumption? Do you do the "ethically correct" thing and inform
your clients that according to the EST they will never even break
even on a commercial active solar system?

I am well aware that facts and figures are something most peddlers of
alternate energy hate more than anything else, and for good reason,
but if you have credible alternative sources please tell us what they
are.
--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/
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On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 09:03:22 +0100 someone who may be Peter Parry
wrote this:-

I am well aware that facts and figures are something most peddlers of
alternate energy hate more than anything else, and for good reason,


It is those who try and ridicule "alternate energy" who appear to be
the ones who dislike figures. Some of these are people who tried
"alternate energy" at an earlier stage of its development and now
attack it with the zeal of a reformed smoker attacking smoking.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54


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On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 01:57:46 -0700, Jonathan wrote:

I opened my paper yesterday to see the following wildly inaccurate,
misleading and sensationalist report regarding home energy saving and
renewable energy. It was in several of the papers, here are some
links.


From the Reading Freecycle Cafe list:

Alan Parker wrote:
I opened my paper yesterday to see the following wildly inaccurate,
misleading and sensationalist report regarding home energy saving and
renewable energy. It was in several of the papers, here are some links.


---8--- cut&pastery snipped ---8---

Now I know wise minds think alike (etc :-) but so alike it's word-for word
throughout each posting?

--
John Stumbles

Who's *really* behind all these conspiracy theories?
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David Hansen wrote:

John Rumm wrote this:-

Even if is saves you £100/year that would still be a 50 year payback.


Simple payback period is not the only reason for doing something.
What is the simple payback period on a new kitchen, or replacing
fluorescent kitchen lights with downlighters?


Neither of those are done for payback unless you count count keeping the wife
happy as payback. Will your wife be happier with solar water heating over nice
decoration might seem to be the right question to ask.

Graham

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David Hansen wrote:

On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 15:37:52 +0100 someone who may be Eeyore
wrote this:-

Par for the course. Even the Nobel comittee were ignorant enough to get taken in
by Al Gore's comedy film.


The committee awarded the prize to the IPCC and Mr Gore for their
work in raising knowledge of the issue. Even those who believe the
science is all junk should be grown up enough to accept that they
have both raised knowledge of the issue.


Hopefully enough that some real science and truth (rather than spin) might enter the
equation !

Graham

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David Hansen wrote:

On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 18:43:10 +0100 someone who may be Eeyore
wrote this:-

Considering it's stuffed full of outright LIES, it damn well should have been banned.


Mr Gore's film contains more than two thousand statements. In the
recent court case they were no doubt all crawled over. None of them
were found to be lies, but nine of them were found to have been more
incomplete than they should have been. For example, on the total
melting of ice caps the film should have added the timescale for
this to happen.


IIRC, Gore said that the hottest years on record were in the last decade. Those ARE
outright LIES as it now turns out. Also, the suggestion that CO2 causes temperature rise
IS a lie in the historic context. The idea that it's the other way round 'this time' is as
yet an unproven hypothesis.

As for suugesting that his exaggerations and biased analysis aren't effectively lies, it
seems to be a poor show that's the best defence you can offer.

Graham

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"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...


(I can't make sense of what you're saying

....

:-)

I'm sorry you have a problem ...

Mary




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David Hansen wrote:

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 09:03:22 +0100 someone who may be Peter Parry
wrote this:-

I am well aware that facts and figures are something most peddlers of
alternate energy hate more than anything else, and for good reason,


It is those who try and ridicule "alternate energy" who appear to be
the ones who dislike figures. Some of these are people who tried
"alternate energy" at an earlier stage of its development and now
attack it with the zeal of a reformed smoker attacking smoking.


Probably because they have enough experience of it to see where the flaws lie.

Graham

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"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Mary Fisher wrote:

"Jonathan" wrote

... "An
Inconvenient Truth", which was cleared to be shown in UK schools after
axe-grinding truck driver and political activist Stewart Dimmock
failed in his case to have the film banned. Although the judge


A renowned expert ...


A judge doesn't have to be a (scientific) expert. The suggestion he should
have
been is a classic disingenuous attempt to dumb down the ruling by
greenies.

The job of a judge is to weight the evidence. It's clear to me he did that
job
well.


And to others that he didn't.

Which is right?

Mary


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"Roger" wrote in message
k...
The message
from "Mary Fisher" contains these words:

Ours cost us £2000 two years ago. Our gas bills (the only other
water heating we had) were reduced by almost £300 in the first year.


There was a salesman extolling the virtues of solar heating on BBC
television news this am. Claimed installition costs was in the region
£3500 - £5000 and a saving of 10 - 15% of heating bills could be
expected. On that basis I expect Mary's gas bill would have been in the
region of £2000 - £3000 prior to the installation of solar heating.


It was nothing like that..

But we don't have a television either ...

Mary


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"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 18:20:32 +0100 someone who may be John Rumm
wrote this:-

Even if is saves you £100/year that would still be a 50 year payback.


Simple payback period is not the only reason for doing something.
What is the simple payback period on a new kitchen, or replacing
fluorescent kitchen lights with downlighters?


Or a bottle of wine or bar of chocolate - or a newspaper - or almost
anything people choose to have.

Mary



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David Hansen wrote:
On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 17:09:35 +0100 someone who may be D Moodie
wrote this:-

For example cavity wall insulation installed for £280..!!!!


A few years ago the gas board were offering to pay part of the cost,
which brought the cost for a three bedroom house to something like
150-200 pounds.




Exactly the point... the sentence you snipped directly before this read..

Every item seems to have an asterix, but no corresponding explaination..
I wonder if this is the cost after some sort of grant.

cheers

David




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On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 08:56:24 +0100, David Hansen
wrote:

Mr Gore's film contains more than two thousand statements. In the
recent court case they were no doubt all crawled over. None of them
were found to be lies, but nine of them were found to have been more
incomplete than they should have been.


I suppose the statement that polar bears numbers are falling and they
are drowning left right and centre was "more incomplete than [it]
should have been" because it omitted the fact that it was completely
untrue? What does a false statement have to be to become a lie?

Falsely presenting two graphs to attempt to show an "exact fit"
between rise in CO2 and rise in temperature isn't a lie?

The most telling statement from the Judge was "[The]errors were made
in “the context of alarmism and exaggeration” in order to support Mr
Gore’s thesis on global warming."

"I conclude that the claimant substantially won this case by virtue
of my finding that, but for the new guidance note, the film would
have been distributed in breach of sections 406 and 407 of the 1996
Education Act"

It is a professional piece of greenwash, of that there is no doubt.
It is a pity that its proponent (who has a personal carbon hoofprint
the size of a small town) felt so uncertain of the quality of his
information that he felt it necessary to make a propaganda rather
than an educational film.



--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/
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"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


David Hansen wrote:

John Rumm wrote this:-

Even if is saves you £100/year that would still be a 50 year payback.


Simple payback period is not the only reason for doing something.
What is the simple payback period on a new kitchen, or replacing
fluorescent kitchen lights with downlighters?


Neither of those are done for payback unless you count count keeping the
wife
happy as payback. Will your wife be happier with solar water heating over
nice
decoration might seem to be the right question to ask.


Aye, that just about sums up all your arguments.


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On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 08:52:16 +0100, David Hansen
wrote:

Even those who believe the
science is all junk should be grown up enough to accept that they
have both raised knowledge of the issue.


In Gores case he may have raised awareness but certainly not
knowledge. Science, unlike politics, is all about learning.
Conclusions and suppositions are often superseded by new findings.
This is exactly why this glossy bit of polemic has no place in
schools other than in politics lessons. Children should be taught to
question based on facts, not to accept spoon feed misinformation from
celebrities. They should learn that science is about continually
finding things out and in doing so it will always create new areas of
uncertainty as well as resolving problems.

Real learning is of course an anathema to a government intent on
promoting superstition and installing increasing numbers of "faith"
schools so it isn't surprising that their ministers probably believe
Gores green propaganda is science, but it isn't and shouldn't go
unchallenged when presented as being so.

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/
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David Hansen wrote:
On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 18:43:10 +0100 someone who may be Eeyore
wrote this:-

Considering it's stuffed full of outright LIES, it damn well should have been banned.


Mr Gore's film contains more than two thousand statements. In the
recent court case they were no doubt all crawled over. None of them
were found to be lies, but nine of them were found to have been more
incomplete than they should have been. For example, on the total
melting of ice caps the film should have added the timescale for
this to happen.

Only nine statements which could be expressed more completely out of
over two thousand statements is a resounding approval of the film,
no matter how loudly some shout that it has been discredited.


Unless you were in court to hear the arguments thats a leap of logic you
can't make.

VH.
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Mary Fisher wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
Mary Fisher wrote:
"Jonathan" wrote

... "An
Inconvenient Truth", which was cleared to be shown in UK schools after
axe-grinding truck driver and political activist Stewart Dimmock
failed in his case to have the film banned. Although the judge

A renowned expert ...


A judge doesn't have to be a (scientific) expert. The suggestion he should
have been is a classic disingenuous attempt to dumb down the ruling by
greenies.

The job of a judge is to weight the evidence. It's clear to me he did that
job well.


And to others that he didn't.

Which is right?


Where do you think the judgement was flawed ?

I have looked into all the issues in great depth and I was delighted to see a
court judgement that actually looked at the facts for once.

Gore's film is an utter POS. FYI, there are 3 further areas where I'd like to
see it challenged further.

Graham

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