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Andy Hall wrote:

On 2007-10-08 10:42:47 +0100, Stuart Noble
said:



IME if teenagers behave like 5 year olds it's because at 5 they weren't
allowed to behave like teenagers.


That's profound....


Indeed and very true. My wife's a psychologist, and as she says when we
see some teenager having a strop with their parents "Oh look, another
badly behaved parent." Parents mostly blame other people, usually the
child, but mostly it's the parent at fault when things break down.
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On 2007-10-08 11:52:43 +0100, (Steve Firth) said:

Andy Hall wrote:

On 2007-10-08 10:42:47 +0100, Stuart Noble
said:



IME if teenagers behave like 5 year olds it's because at 5 they weren't
allowed to behave like teenagers.


That's profound....


Indeed and very true. My wife's a psychologist, and as she says when we
see some teenager having a strop with their parents "Oh look, another
badly behaved parent." Parents mostly blame other people, usually the
child, but mostly it's the parent at fault when things break down.


I think that there is some truth in that. The question is then in
what way do (or more likely did) the parents misbehave?

If it was *did*, then the question becomes what, if anything can be
done about it - i.e. does raiding the museum help?


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Steve Firth wrote:
Andy Hall wrote:

On 2007-10-08 10:42:47 +0100, Stuart Noble
said:


IME if teenagers behave like 5 year olds it's because at 5 they weren't
allowed to behave like teenagers.

That's profound....


Indeed and very true. My wife's a psychologist, and as she says when we
see some teenager having a strop with their parents "Oh look, another
badly behaved parent." Parents mostly blame other people, usually the
child, but mostly it's the parent at fault when things break down.


Parents do the best they can given that most of them have other burning
issues to deal with at that time in their lives, but they do seem to
make hard work of it all. Children only want your time, and don't much
care how you spend it together, but the parents get bored. They want "fun".
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In article ,
Stuart Noble writes:

Parents do the best they can given that most of them have other burning
issues to deal with at that time in their lives, but they do seem to


....and they get little or no training in what is probably the
most important job of their lives -- being a patent.

make hard work of it all. Children only want your time, and don't much
care how you spend it together, but the parents get bored. They want "fun".


--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
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On Mon, 8 Oct 2007 09:45:51 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Owain" wrote in message
. ..
kent wrote:
"ThePunisher" wrote:
What do you think it down to then? hovering ufos?
maybe genes, friendship difficulties, bullying, problems at school,
wider family issues, bereavement, emotional difficulties of various
kinds, frustrations of life, physical health issues, mental health
issues, etc etc


And which of the above stop teenagers from closing a door quietly?


Or leaving them open?

Mary


it's the hospital's fault for having swing doors.
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Andy Hall wrote:

On 2007-10-08 11:52:43 +0100, (Steve Firth) said:

Andy Hall wrote:

On 2007-10-08 10:42:47 +0100, Stuart Noble
said:



IME if teenagers behave like 5 year olds it's because at 5 they weren't
allowed to behave like teenagers.

That's profound....


Indeed and very true. My wife's a psychologist, and as she says when we
see some teenager having a strop with their parents "Oh look, another
badly behaved parent." Parents mostly blame other people, usually the
child, but mostly it's the parent at fault when things break down.


I think that there is some truth in that. The question is then in
what way do (or more likely did) the parents misbehave?


Well, again, according to the mighty SWMBO, mostly it comes down to
inconsistency and weakness on the part of the parents. She counts
"thrashing" or even slapping of children as signs of weakness or
inadequacy. Most kids learn that if the parent talks tough or dishes out
physical punishment, such punishment is of short duration, applied
inconsistently and unfairly and usually means absolutely nothing other
than as a way of relieving the frustrations of the parent. The same
applied to the shouting and hysteria of parents when faced with a child
who refuses to obey.

The most serious punishment that can be applied to a child is to ignore
them. We had a whole day of stepping over one (ie. our) child who threw
a tantrum. After about 8 hours it was obvious that no one would pay the
slightest attention to that tactic and when normality resumed *then* we
gave the fuss and the care wanted. I cant recall it being tried more
than once.

If it was *did*, then the question becomes what, if anything can be
done about it - i.e. does raiding the museum help?


Like all things it's easiest to avoid the problem early on, remedial
action takes huge amounts of time and effort.
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Stuart Noble wrote:

Parents do the best they can given that most of them have other burning
issues to deal with at that time in their lives


I thin the problem is that many people become parents without thinking
about it. I'm despairing with a professional colleague at the moment who
had children because "the biological clock is ticking". Now the children
are simply handed to nanny and the parent does nothing with the kids
except a good night kiss.

The same parent has "issues" with their own parents who behaved in
exactly the same way. Despite gentle prodding she can't see that her own
children will probably end up with the same problems (about parental
rejection) that she had.

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On Oct 7, 6:43 pm, kent wrote:
On Oct 7, 6:32 pm, "ThePunisher" wrote:

kent wrote:
Does anyone know of any solution for smug contributors who either
haven't had any teenage children or who have been blessed with less
"spirited" offspring? Do they really think that all teenage behaviour
is down to poor parenting?


What do you think it down to then? hovering ufos?


--
ThePunisher


maybe genes,


They got those from the parents, for a start.

friendship difficulties, bullying, problems at school,
wider family issues, bereavement, emotional difficulties of various
kinds, frustrations of life, physical health issues, mental health
issues, etc etc


All of which they can grow up to cope with or have parents who they
know they can turn to. It really is mostly down to parenting, but at a
*much* earlier age.

MBQ


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Steve Firth wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:

Parents do the best they can given that most of them have other burning
issues to deal with at that time in their lives


I thin the problem is that many people become parents without thinking
about it. I'm despairing with a professional colleague at the moment who
had children because "the biological clock is ticking". Now the children
are simply handed to nanny and the parent does nothing with the kids
except a good night kiss.



The same parent has "issues" with their own parents who behaved in
exactly the same way. Despite gentle prodding she can't see that her own
children will probably end up with the same problems (about parental
rejection) that she had.


Time for a bit of poetry....

They **** you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don’t have any kids yourself.


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All of which they can grow up to cope with or have parents who they
know they can turn to. It really is mostly down to parenting, but at a
*much* earlier age.


Couldn't agree more. In most respects the game's over by the time they
start school.


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Mary Fisher wrote:
"dennis@home" wrote in message
...
"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...


Is there some sort of fear of treating children like people?

Do you think children aren't people?
AIUI children, teenagers, adults are all people.


What amazes me is that most children, even the worst (in our eyes) grow into
sensible, responsible adults. Just as we did ...

Why should it amaze you? Being adult bmens being able to cope with life:
If they don;t learn that they have to say at home. This sets up a
perfect situation to encourage leaving.

What amazes ME is teh parents don;t want kids to grow up. They want to
control and dominate and bend their opinions forever. They can't ger
around to rtreating the kids as adults and friends. They are still
'theor baybees'

Bleagh.

No wonder the kids screw up. The *parents* never grew up.

One of my nephews is a 'problem' chld. I simply told him: If you want
the good things of life that society can give you, you have to bend to
society's rules, irrespective of whatever you personally may think. He
never given me any trouble.

Mostly because unlike his parents I don't care what he chooses to be. I
only care that he doesn't impinge on me personally in an adverse way. If
he does I tell him. If not, I let him do what he likes.



I remember a neighbour despairing that she was rearing juvenile delinquents,
I thought they were delightful - just as she thought our five were. Parents
see things others don't, perhaps we expect/ed too much.

Hers became the classic doctor and lawyer ... mine didn't but they are now
adults who give more to society than they take from it.

And shout at their children for banging doors or leaving them open :-)

Time heals most ills. Except that it will get worse before it gets better
:-(

Mary

Mary


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Broadback wrote:
Skipweasel wrote:
In article . com,
says...
I need a solution to stop doors being slammed by teenage kids, which
in turn shakes the whole house.


Remove the doors. They soon learn that they'd rather have doors and
some privacy but learn not to slam them than have no doors at all.

Rather off topic, but do you think that the politicians protecting
children to the Nth degree has contributed to the terrible crimes that a
(relatively) few young people commit? Is there any way left for society
to reasonably punish misdemeanants before they commit more serious
offences?


Absolutely

On my day there was a range of punishments, from being verbally abused
through a slap round the buttocks to formal caning. If you cared to
explore teh various route you would find it increasingly unpleasant.

SOME of my class mates ONLY responded to physical punishment. Words
simply didn't feature.

Today, you cannot, unless you are an officer of the law etc, punish a
child in any way whatsoever..i am sure somewhere there is some bloody
teenager complaining to some human right court the being deprived of his
pocket money is a cruel and unusual punishment. So natirally there s no
warning when they DO overstep the line.

I can't remember any innate conscience or feelings of guilt associated
with any of my many misdemeanours, certainly none as powerful as the
fear of getting caught, and being whacked round the bum, which bloody
HURTS.

I don't think a sense of the self in respect to the rest of society
develops until post puberty.


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Stuart Noble wrote:
Steve Firth wrote:
Andy Hall wrote:

On 2007-10-08 10:42:47 +0100, Stuart Noble
said:


IME if teenagers behave like 5 year olds it's because at 5 they weren't
allowed to behave like teenagers.
That's profound....


Indeed and very true. My wife's a psychologist, and as she says when we
see some teenager having a strop with their parents "Oh look, another
badly behaved parent." Parents mostly blame other people, usually the
child, but mostly it's the parent at fault when things break down.


Parents do the best they can given that most of them have other burning
issues to deal with at that time in their lives, but they do seem to
make hard work of it all. Children only want your time, and don't much
care how you spend it together, but the parents get bored. They want "fun".


Totally agree. I saw some study somewhere years sao on te mpat of
corporal punishment on childrens behaviour.

The overall conclusion was the juvenile deliquency was heavily
correlated with being ignored. Whether a whack round the head or some
'quality parenting time' was given, the results as far as bad behaviour
were pretty much identical.

I find the same with our young terrier. Left to his own devices he will
go and chase things mercilessly, but a constant series of bellowed
command are gradually getting him to realise he IS noticed, and a
mixture of carrot and stick tones is turning the scamp into quite a
reasonable example of caninehood.

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Stuart Noble wrote:
Steve Firth wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:

Parents do the best they can given that most of them have other burning
issues to deal with at that time in their lives


I thin the problem is that many people become parents without thinking
about it. I'm despairing with a professional colleague at the moment who
had children because "the biological clock is ticking". Now the children
are simply handed to nanny and the parent does nothing with the kids
except a good night kiss.



The same parent has "issues" with their own parents who behaved in
exactly the same way. Despite gentle prodding she can't see that her own
children will probably end up with the same problems (about parental
rejection) that she had.


Time for a bit of poetry....

They **** you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don’t have any kids yourself.


Advice I have followed to the letter.
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George wrote:
http://tinyurl.com/2haayp



No, opposite effect, that is a door slammer.


--
djc


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On 7 Oct, 21:17, Skipweasel wrote:
In article . com,
says...

I need a solution to stop doors being slammed by teenage kids, which
in turn shakes the whole house.


Remove the doors. They soon learn that they'd rather have doors and some
privacy but learn not to slam them than have no doors at all.

--
Skipweasel.
Never knowingly understood.




Yep! That's what I did, and it worked within a day!

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The Natural Philosopher wrote:

The overall conclusion was the juvenile deliquency was heavily
correlated with being ignored. Whether a whack round the head or some
'quality parenting time' was given, the results as far as bad behaviour
were pretty much identical.


The amazing thing is that we need "research" to remind us of the
blindingly obvious.
Then again, talking to children is very hard work. After half an hour
with my 5 year old granddaughter I feel the need to go and lie in a
darkened room. Can we really play pass the parcel with only two of us?
Gimmee a break for chrissake.
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"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Stuart Noble writes:

Parents do the best they can given that most of them have other burning
issues to deal with at that time in their lives, but they do seem to


...and they get little or no training in what is probably the
most important job of their lives -- being a patent.


Indeed. But I don't know how anyone could be taught how to be a parent.
Animals seem to do it naturally.

Mind you, as I've said before, most children grow up into reasonable adults
and they have to suffer their own children which is some kind of justice :-)

Mary


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Mary Fisher wrote:
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Stuart Noble writes:
Parents do the best they can given that most of them have other burning
issues to deal with at that time in their lives, but they do seem to

...and they get little or no training in what is probably the
most important job of their lives -- being a patent.


Indeed. But I don't know how anyone could be taught how to be a parent.
Animals seem to do it naturally.


Ah, but animals also slaughter other animals unnecessarily, and **** and
**** everywhere, and destroy habitats. And commit gross acts of corporal
violence on each other.

according to Nu Laber, we are supposed to be forced to be above all that.

Our queen cat is now pregnant again, and her last son is now persona non
grata and gets a cuff round the head every time he wants to be coddled.

In todays Brave New World that would net the mother a jail sentence, and
the cat a free 6 months of counselling to help him put 'closure' on his
'feelings of rejection'.
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Mary Fisher wrote:
"Mark" wrote in message
...
On 08 Oct 2007 12:04:31 GMT, (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
Stuart Noble writes:
Parents do the best they can given that most of them have other burning
issues to deal with at that time in their lives, but they do seem to
...and they get little or no training in what is probably the
most important job of their lives -- being a patent.

Crazy, isn't it? I think parenting skills should be on the national
curriculum.


Who's going to teach it?
The only "training" that most parents get is remembering what their
parents did. In this respect they are likely to repeat the same
mistakes unless they work *very* hard to avoid them (and that's
if they are even aware of them).

make hard work of it all. Children only want your time, and don't much
care how you spend it together, but the parents get bored. They want
"fun".

Fun - Ah, I remember that ;-)


It gets better, just hang on and fun will return :-)

For us life is almost 100% fun even when the grandchildren come - they're
better with us than they are with their own parents. They know that yes
means yes and no means no here and whining gets them nowhere.

Mary


Tom Waits quote

"I don't have fun. Actually, I had fun once. In 1962. I drank a whole
bottle of Robitussin cough medicine and went in the back of a 1961
powder-blue Lincoln Continental to a James Brown concert with some
Mexican friends of mine. I haven't had fun since. It's not a word I
like. It's like Volkswagens or bell-bottoms, or patchouli oil or bean
sprouts. It rubs me up the wrong way. I might go out and have an
educational and entertaining evening, but I don't have fun."
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in 672298 20071009 105213 The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Mary Fisher wrote:
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Stuart Noble writes:
Parents do the best they can given that most of them have other burning
issues to deal with at that time in their lives, but they do seem to
...and they get little or no training in what is probably the
most important job of their lives -- being a patent.


Indeed. But I don't know how anyone could be taught how to be a parent.
Animals seem to do it naturally.


Ah, but animals also slaughter other animals unnecessarily, and **** and
**** everywhere, and destroy habitats. And commit gross acts of corporal
violence on each other.


Perfect description of homo sapiens.
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On 2007-10-09 10:52:13 +0100, The Natural Philosopher said:

Mary Fisher wrote:
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Stuart Noble writes:
Parents do the best they can given that most of them have other burning
issues to deal with at that time in their lives, but they do seem to
...and they get little or no training in what is probably the
most important job of their lives -- being a patent.


Indeed. But I don't know how anyone could be taught how to be a parent.
Animals seem to do it naturally.


Ah, but animals also slaughter other animals unnecessarily, and ****
and **** everywhere, and destroy habitats. And commit gross acts of
corporal violence on each other.

according to Nu Laber, we are supposed to be forced to be above all that.

Our queen cat is now pregnant again, and her last son is now persona
non grata and gets a cuff round the head every time he wants to be
coddled.

In todays Brave New World that would net the mother a jail sentence,
and the cat a free 6 months of counselling to help him put 'closure' on
his 'feelings of rejection'.


But as their Soshulworkah you need to interfere in all of this whether
they want you to or not.

Cat politics is an interesting thing. I think we have a lot to learn
from them.


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Bob Martin wrote:
in 672298 20071009 105213 The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Mary Fisher wrote:
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Stuart Noble writes:
Parents do the best they can given that most of them have other burning
issues to deal with at that time in their lives, but they do seem to
...and they get little or no training in what is probably the
most important job of their lives -- being a patent.
Indeed. But I don't know how anyone could be taught how to be a parent.
Animals seem to do it naturally.

Ah, but animals also slaughter other animals unnecessarily, and **** and
**** everywhere, and destroy habitats. And commit gross acts of corporal
violence on each other.


Perfect description of homo sapiens.


Yes, but with one important difference. WE are told we should NOT be
doing it.

(Worse, our pets mustn't do it either..)

This is so we can exist at a population density about a thousand times
greater than Nature intended.
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On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 10:51:38 GMT, Skipweasel wrote:

In article .com,
says...
Remove the doors. They soon learn that they'd rather have doors and some
privacy but learn not to slam them than have no doors at all.


Yep! That's what I did, and it worked within a day!


But did it continue to work once you'd put them back on again? Otherwise
we're in "I can prove spiders hear through their knees" territory.


I told my son about the door slamming/removal of doors idea and when
ge got in from school today he told me he'd not slammed the door - so
it's def struck a chord with him.
--
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On 2007-10-10 22:12:10 +0100, "John" said:


"Skipweasel" wrote in message
.uk...
In article , am says...
When I was about three, I remember telling my grandmother that I hadn't
had the sugar cubes in the bowl in her sideboard.

When asked who'd slammed the door my brother is reputed to have retorted
(at about the age of four) "But I only slammed it gently".
--
Skipweasel.
Never knowingly understood.


I would imagine that the original poster has lost the will to live by now.

Is there a DIY solution - imagine the wind is causing the door to slam.


Yes. Ask the family to close the windows. Quietly.

It's important to think of DIY in a wide context and with lateral
thought. This is inclusive of anything and any idea that doesn't
involve bringing in an outside party. Therefore it's just as valid
to discuss how to prevent the door being banged "at source" than to
deal with the outcome. In fact it's even better, considering the
principle of "give me a fish and I will eat today, teach me to fish and
I will eat always".

Fixing the result is really akin to a bodge rather than crafting a
proper solution. DIY is not about bodging but doing a job better
than a professional.

Given all of that, there have been many more DIY solutions than bodges
in answers on this thread.

It was all free as well. A professional would charge a lot of money
for such sage counseling.





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On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 21:30:46 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Stuart Noble wrote:


Get out as early as you can,

....
Advice I have followed to the letter.


Didn't know they had internet in the next world :-|


--
John Stumbles

Testiculate [v.t]
To wave one's arms around while talking ********.
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On 9 Oct, 10:52, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Ah, but animals also slaughter other animals unnecessarily, and **** and
**** everywhere, and destroy habitats. And commit gross acts of corporal
violence on each other.


That sounds like a Friday or Saturday night in some of our larger
cities!



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On 2007-10-11 09:15:36 +0100, John Stumbles said:

On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 21:30:46 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Stuart Noble wrote:


Get out as early as you can,

...
Advice I have followed to the letter.


Didn't know they had internet in the next world :-|


Never heard of ethernet?


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"Owain" wrote in message
...
Andy Hall wrote:
John Stumbles said:
Didn't know they had internet in the next world :-|

Never heard of ethernet?


If you get buried in a willow basket, do you get econet?

Would burial at sea provide decnet?

Owain


What shall I have?

:-)

Mary




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Mary Fisher wrote:

What shall I have?


I thought we'd already settled you were up for a set of canopic jars and
several kilometers of bandage?
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Default A solution to stop doors slamming/being slammed?

On 2007-10-11 13:24:13 +0100, Owain said:

Andy Hall wrote:
John Stumbles said:
Didn't know they had internet in the next world :-|

Never heard of ethernet?


If you get buried in a willow basket, do you get econet?

Would burial at sea provide decnet?

Owain


Possibly, but if you go for the low cost church funeral you might get a
token ring.



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Default A solution to stop doors slamming/being slammed?

In message , Andy Hall writes
On 2007-10-11 13:24:13 +0100, Owain said:

Andy Hall wrote:
John Stumbles said:
Didn't know they had internet in the next world :-|
Never heard of ethernet?

If you get buried in a willow basket, do you get econet?
Would burial at sea provide decnet?
Owain


Possibly, but if you go for the low cost church funeral you might get a
token ring.

Especially with some of the dodgy clergy around


--
geoff
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