Hi, I need advice on external door glass...

I bought a Georgian-style hardwood front door with 9 panes in the top
half. I need some glass for it. Ideally, I'd like something that will
allow me to recognise the identity of a visitor standing outside,
while not permitting that visitor to easily see inside. I'm envisaging
something that you have to get your eye up close to in order to see
through it. I think I've seen some like that somewhere. Can anyone
advise where I can buy such glass?

Also, which kind of glass is most suitable: toughened, hardened, or
laminated? I've no doubt that the most unbreakable will be the most
expensive. Can anyone give me an idea of the cost?

Thank you,

Rich W

Rich W wrote:
Hi, I need advice on external door glass...

I bought a Georgian-style hardwood front door with 9 panes in the top
half. I need some glass for it. Ideally, I'd like something that will
allow me to recognise the identity of a visitor standing outside,
while not permitting that visitor to easily see inside. I'm envisaging
something that you have to get your eye up close to in order to see
through it. I think I've seen some like that somewhere. Can anyone
advise where I can buy such glass?

Also, which kind of glass is most suitable: toughened, hardened, or
laminated? I've no doubt that the most unbreakable will be the most
expensive. Can anyone give me an idea of the cost?

Thank you,

Rich W

I am fairly sure any glass will do..safety glass is only required if you
can fall through it and that's not the case with small panes above waist
level.

However security issues may dictate you want something that can;t be
smashed and an arm inserted through to unlock the door etc. Your choice.
Your glazier can advise.

Also you might want to fit double glazing..glass is about twice as
conductive as a hardwood door.

Unidirectional transparency is achieved mainly bu having the hallway
dark. That makes you invisible and the outside crystal clear.

Or you might be thinking of 'bullion' glass? that's pretty expensive
stuff, and looks fairly weird on a paneled door.

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 14:17:42 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

I am fairly sure any glass will do..safety glass is only required if you
can fall through it and that's not the case with small panes above waist
level.

However security issues may dictate you want something that can;t be
smashed and an arm inserted through to unlock the door etc. Your choice.

Hi, Thanks for the input. Yes, I want something that will be hard to
break, for the exact reason you described.

Your glazier can advise.

Also you might want to fit double glazing..glass is about twice as
conductive as a hardwood door.

That's an idea; thanks. I will enquire about the price.

The door already has a couple of pieces of bullion glass in it. I like
the look of that, but it doesn't give quite the level of privacy I'd
like. It's very easy to see past the concentric ripples. Perhaps if it
was green glass rather than clear it would be better.

The door will open straight into a living room, so the need for
privacy is somewhat more than if, say, it was opening into a hallway.

Rich

For security, I'd go for laminated (When laminated breaks, it remains
in place. When toughened breaks it forms pea sized chips). Have a look
at the glazing rebates in the door to see how thick glass it can take.
From memory, commonsizes are 4mm (float or toughened only), 6.4mm
(float, toughened,laminated), 9.6mm.

For greater thicknesses you can consider sealed units. These are
specified as 4/10/4 for instance - glass/gap/glass in mm's - nowadays
it's usual to specify the inner as K glass for it's improved thermal
performance.

Glass is very cheap compared to the cost of the door, to the point
that it's probably worth having a spare piece cut at the same time
(assuming they're all the same size - make sure you check!)

Rich W wrote:
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 14:17:42 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

I am fairly sure any glass will do..safety glass is only required if you
can fall through it and that's not the case with small panes above waist
level.

However security issues may dictate you want something that can;t be
smashed and an arm inserted through to unlock the door etc. Your choice.

Hi, Thanks for the input. Yes, I want something that will be hard to
break, for the exact reason you described.

Your glazier can advise.

Also you might want to fit double glazing..glass is about twice as
conductive as a hardwood door.

That's an idea; thanks. I will enquire about the price.

The door already has a couple of pieces of bullion glass in it. I like
the look of that, but it doesn't give quite the level of privacy I'd
like. It's very easy to see past the concentric ripples. Perhaps if it
was green glass rather than clear it would be better.

The door will open straight into a living room, so the need for
privacy is somewhat more than if, say, it was opening into a hallway.

Rich

I hate to say it, but net curtains are the thing..

And a thwacking great interlined, *and* lined, velvet or brocade curtain
for winter, and excellent draughtproofing around the edges.

"Rich W" wrote in message
...
Hi, I need advice on external door glass...

I bought a Georgian-style hardwood front door with 9 panes in the top
half. I need some glass for it. Ideally, I'd like something that will
allow me to recognise the identity of a visitor standing outside,
while not permitting that visitor to easily see inside. I'm envisaging
something that you have to get your eye up close to in order to see
through it. I think I've seen some like that somewhere. Can anyone
advise where I can buy such glass?

Also, which kind of glass is most suitable: toughened, hardened, or
laminated? I've no doubt that the most unbreakable will be the most
expensive. Can anyone give me an idea of the cost?

For security, any glass near or in a door should be laminated (preferable)
or Georgian wired glass. Toughened only means that a burglar does not get
hurt when he breaks the pane, while ordinary wired glass simply muffles the
already quiet noise of it breaking. For privacy, you need a privacy film,
which is applied to the inside surface and makes the glass opaque, and a
door viewer to look at visitors through.

Colin Bignell

Colin Bignell

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 18:09:53 +0100 Nightjar wrote :
For security, any glass near or in a door should be laminated
(preferable) or Georgian wired glass. Toughened only means that a
burglar does not get hurt when he breaks the pane, while ordinary
wired glass simply muffles the already quiet noise of it breaking.

All wired glass on sale now is Georgian AFAIK: this just means that
the wires are in a square grid. In times past you could also get
wired glass with the wires in a chicken wire pattern. Wired glass
will break fairly easily (the wires weaken the glass) but it's much
harder to punch a hole through it as the wires hold the pieces of
glass in place - thus its main use in fire resisting doors and
screens.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

Tony Bryer wrote:
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 18:09:53 +0100 Nightjar wrote :
For security, any glass near or in a door should be laminated
(preferable) or Georgian wired glass. Toughened only means that a
burglar does not get hurt when he breaks the pane, while ordinary
wired glass simply muffles the already quiet noise of it breaking.

All wired glass on sale now is Georgian AFAIK: this just means that
the wires are in a square grid. In times past you could also get
wired glass with the wires in a chicken wire pattern. Wired glass
will break fairly easily (the wires weaken the glass) but it's much
harder to punch a hole through it as the wires hold the pieces of
glass in place - thus its main use in fire resisting doors and
screens.


Does it really matter how secure the glass is in a front door?
Presumably it is mortice locked so removing the glass isn't going to
achieve much. Most just get kicked in IME, although round my way
burglary has gone out of style

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 18:09:53 +0100 Nightjar wrote :
For security, any glass near or in a door should be laminated
(preferable) or Georgian wired glass. Toughened only means that a
burglar does not get hurt when he breaks the pane, while ordinary
wired glass simply muffles the already quiet noise of it breaking.

All wired glass on sale now is Georgian AFAIK: this just means that
the wires are in a square grid.

It should also mean that the wires are welded together where they cross.

In times past you could also get
wired glass with the wires in a chicken wire pattern.

Still could when I last went down the glaziers

Colin Bignell

"Stuart Noble" wrote in message
...
Tony Bryer wrote:
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 18:09:53 +0100 Nightjar wrote :
For security, any glass near or in a door should be laminated
(preferable) or Georgian wired glass. Toughened only means that a
burglar does not get hurt when he breaks the pane, while ordinary wired
glass simply muffles the already quiet noise of it breaking.

All wired glass on sale now is Georgian AFAIK: this just means that the
wires are in a square grid. In times past you could also get wired glass
with the wires in a chicken wire pattern. Wired glass will break fairly
easily (the wires weaken the glass) but it's much harder to punch a hole
through it as the wires hold the pieces of glass in place - thus its main
use in fire resisting doors and screens.


Does it really matter how secure the glass is in a front door? Presumably
it is mortice locked so removing the glass isn't going to achieve much.

It is not a good idea to deadlock yourself inside a house at night. There
should always be at least one door that can be opened easily from inside, in
case you need to get out quickly in a fire.

Colin Bignell

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 23:48:41 +0100, "nightjar" nightjar@insert my
surname here.uk.com mused:


"Stuart Noble" wrote in message
...
Tony Bryer wrote:
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 18:09:53 +0100 Nightjar wrote :
For security, any glass near or in a door should be laminated
(preferable) or Georgian wired glass. Toughened only means that a
burglar does not get hurt when he breaks the pane, while ordinary wired
glass simply muffles the already quiet noise of it breaking.

All wired glass on sale now is Georgian AFAIK: this just means that the
wires are in a square grid. In times past you could also get wired glass
with the wires in a chicken wire pattern. Wired glass will break fairly
easily (the wires weaken the glass) but it's much harder to punch a hole
through it as the wires hold the pieces of glass in place - thus its main
use in fire resisting doors and screens.


Does it really matter how secure the glass is in a front door? Presumably
it is mortice locked so removing the glass isn't going to achieve much.

It is not a good idea to deadlock yourself inside a house at night. There
should always be at least one door that can be opened easily from inside, in
case you need to get out quickly in a fire.

Check your insurance policy!
--
Regards,
Stuart.

nightjar nightjar@ wrote:
"Stuart Noble" wrote in message
...
Tony Bryer wrote:
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 18:09:53 +0100 Nightjar wrote :
For security, any glass near or in a door should be laminated
(preferable) or Georgian wired glass. Toughened only means that a
burglar does not get hurt when he breaks the pane, while ordinary wired
glass simply muffles the already quiet noise of it breaking.
All wired glass on sale now is Georgian AFAIK: this just means that the
wires are in a square grid. In times past you could also get wired glass
with the wires in a chicken wire pattern. Wired glass will break fairly
easily (the wires weaken the glass) but it's much harder to punch a hole
through it as the wires hold the pieces of glass in place - thus its main
use in fire resisting doors and screens.

Does it really matter how secure the glass is in a front door? Presumably
it is mortice locked so removing the glass isn't going to achieve much.

It is not a good idea to deadlock yourself inside a house at night. There
should always be at least one door that can be opened easily from inside, in
case you need to get out quickly in a fire.


That's what windows are for allegedly.

Colin Bignell

In message , Lurch
writes
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 23:48:41 +0100, "nightjar" nightjar@insert my
surname here.uk.com mused:

It is not a good idea to deadlock yourself inside a house at night. There
should always be at least one door that can be opened easily from inside, in
case you need to get out quickly in a fire.

Check your insurance policy!

Check yours, it's unlikely that it requires you to lock yourself in the
house
--
Chris French

On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 00:54:39 +0100, chris French
mused:

In message , Lurch
writes
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 23:48:41 +0100, "nightjar" nightjar@insert my
surname here.uk.com mused:

It is not a good idea to deadlock yourself inside a house at night. There
should always be at least one door that can be opened easily from inside, in
case you need to get out quickly in a fire.

Check your insurance policy!

Check yours, it's unlikely that it requires you to lock yourself in the
house

I never said yours or mine did or didn't, I just said check it.
--
Regards,
Stuart.

nightjar nightjar@ wrote:
"Stuart Noble" wrote in message
...
Tony Bryer wrote:
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 18:09:53 +0100 Nightjar wrote :
For security, any glass near or in a door should be laminated
(preferable) or Georgian wired glass. Toughened only means that a
burglar does not get hurt when he breaks the pane, while ordinary wired
glass simply muffles the already quiet noise of it breaking.
All wired glass on sale now is Georgian AFAIK: this just means that the
wires are in a square grid. In times past you could also get wired glass
with the wires in a chicken wire pattern. Wired glass will break fairly
easily (the wires weaken the glass) but it's much harder to punch a hole
through it as the wires hold the pieces of glass in place - thus its main
use in fire resisting doors and screens.

Does it really matter how secure the glass is in a front door? Presumably
it is mortice locked so removing the glass isn't going to achieve much.

It is not a good idea to deadlock yourself inside a house at night. There
should always be at least one door that can be opened easily from inside, in
case you need to get out quickly in a fire.

Colin Bignell



Can't win, can you?

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 16:44:51 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

I hate to say it, but net curtains are the thing..

I have to agree, they do solve the problem effectively, but only
during daylight hours.

Rich

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 14:45:24 -0000, "
wrote:

For security, I'd go for laminated (When laminated breaks, it remains
in place. When toughened breaks it forms pea sized chips). Have a look
at the glazing rebates in the door to see how thick glass it can take.
From memory, commonsizes are 4mm (float or toughened only), 6.4mm
(float, toughened,laminated), 9.6mm.

For greater thicknesses you can consider sealed units. These are
specified as 4/10/4 for instance - glass/gap/glass in mm's - nowadays
it's usual to specify the inner as K glass for it's improved thermal
performance.

Glass is very cheap compared to the cost of the door, to the point
that it's probably worth having a spare piece cut at the same time
(assuming they're all the same size - make sure you check!)

Useful advice - thank you. This door will only allow for glass up to
about 6mm thick, so I guess sealed units are not an option. From what
you say, laminate seems the answer. Good idea about buying an extra
pane... Thanks...

Rich

Rich W wrote:
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 16:44:51 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

I hate to say it, but net curtains are the thing..

I have to agree, they do solve the problem effectively, but only
during daylight hours.

Rich

well the rest of my post showed how to use a nice thick curtain at night..

Rich W wrote:
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 18:09:53 +0100, "nightjar" nightjar@insert my
surname here.uk.com wrote:

For security, any glass near or in a door should be laminated (preferable)

Thank you. I think I already have a large piece of extra-strong glass
that could (hopefully) be cut up into small panes for the new door. It
is the single large pane in the door I have just replaced. I tried to
break it with a hammer once, when I locked myself out - and couldn't.
I was amazed. (Mind you, I didn't strike it will full force, for fear
of disturbing my neighbours.)

I wonder if I can cut it into smaller pieces? Will a regular hand-held
glass-cutter (type with a small wheel) work? I guess the answer is to
try.... If trying to cut it is going to be a major PITA, I may as well
go to the glazier and buy the laminated panes ready-cut.

For privacy, you need a privacy film,
which is applied to the inside surface and makes the glass opaque, and a
door viewer to look at visitors through.

Yes, that might be an option. The other idea I'm considering is using
clear (laminated) glass, plus a net curtain plus a roller blind
(bamboo-type, so that one can see through it if one's eye is up close
to the blind). The curtain will provide privacy during daylight, and
roller blind can be dropped at nightfall. I haven't actually tried
this combo yet. I will have to experiment. Alternatively, a paper
roller blind with a tiny peep-hole should work.

Rich

Visually neat, but not much heat insulation properties ;-)

"Rich W" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 18:09:53 +0100, "nightjar" nightjar@insert my
surname here.uk.com wrote:

For security, any glass near or in a door should be laminated (preferable)

Thank you. I think I already have a large piece of extra-strong glass
that could (hopefully) be cut up into small panes for the new door. It
is the single large pane in the door I have just replaced. I tried to
break it with a hammer once, when I locked myself out - and couldn't.
I was amazed. (Mind you, I didn't strike it will full force, for fear
of disturbing my neighbours.)

I wonder if I can cut it into smaller pieces? Will a regular hand-held
glass-cutter (type with a small wheel) work? I guess the answer is to
try.... If trying to cut it is going to be a major PITA, I may as well
go to the glazier and buy the laminated panes ready-cut.

Its probably toughened so it will shatter if you try to cut it.

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 18:09:53 +0100, "nightjar" nightjar@insert my
surname here.uk.com wrote:

For security, any glass near or in a door should be laminated (preferable)

Thank you. I think I already have a large piece of extra-strong glass
that could (hopefully) be cut up into small panes for the new door. It
is the single large pane in the door I have just replaced. I tried to
break it with a hammer once, when I locked myself out - and couldn't.
I was amazed. (Mind you, I didn't strike it will full force, for fear
of disturbing my neighbours.)

I wonder if I can cut it into smaller pieces? Will a regular hand-held
glass-cutter (type with a small wheel) work? I guess the answer is to
try.... If trying to cut it is going to be a major PITA, I may as well
go to the glazier and buy the laminated panes ready-cut.

For privacy, you need a privacy film,
which is applied to the inside surface and makes the glass opaque, and a
door viewer to look at visitors through.

Yes, that might be an option. The other idea I'm considering is using
clear (laminated) glass, plus a net curtain plus a roller blind
(bamboo-type, so that one can see through it if one's eye is up close
to the blind). The curtain will provide privacy during daylight, and
roller blind can be dropped at nightfall. I haven't actually tried
this combo yet. I will have to experiment. Alternatively, a paper
roller blind with a tiny peep-hole should work.

Rich

On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 11:36:45 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

I wonder if I can cut it into smaller pieces? Will a regular hand-held
glass-cutter (type with a small wheel) work? I guess the answer is to
try.... If trying to cut it is going to be a major PITA, I may as well
go to the glazier and buy the laminated panes ready-cut.

Its probably toughened so it will shatter if you try to cut it.

Thanks. I'll probably leav it well alone then. That way, the old door
can be sold on or given away to someone else who can use it.

3 more questions, if you don't mind:

1) Does anyone have a rough idea how much laminated glass costs? I'll
need 9 panes, each 200mm x 300mm.

2) What is the best sealant to use around the edges when inserting the
new panes? I have some clear 'glazier's silicone' in a tube. Is that
any good?

3) The thin quadrant used to hold the panes in place still seems in
good condition. Is there a nack to removing these without breaking
them so that they can be re-used? They are merely nailed in with
brads, and seem to pry up at the center of their length no problem,
but getting them out at the corners may be trickier. (Very tight and
professional bit of mitre-cutting!)

Thanks again,

Rich

On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 11:40:09 +0100, Rich W wrote:

The other idea I'm considering is using clear (laminated) glass, plus a
net curtain plus a roller blind (bamboo-type, so that one can see
through it if one's eye is up close to the blind).

And people outside at night, with the room/hall lit, will be able to see
in. Not quite as well as just a net but still be able to see.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...

"Rich W" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 18:09:53 +0100, "nightjar" nightjar@insert my
surname here.uk.com wrote:

For security, any glass near or in a door should be laminated
(preferable)

Thank you. I think I already have a large piece of extra-strong glass
that could (hopefully) be cut up into small panes for the new door. It
is the single large pane in the door I have just replaced. I tried to
break it with a hammer once, when I locked myself out - and couldn't.
I was amazed. (Mind you, I didn't strike it will full force, for fear
of disturbing my neighbours.)

I wonder if I can cut it into smaller pieces? Will a regular hand-held
glass-cutter (type with a small wheel) work? I guess the answer is to
try.... If trying to cut it is going to be a major PITA, I may as well
go to the glazier and buy the laminated panes ready-cut.

Its probably toughened so it will shatter if you try to cut it.

Even if it isn't, glass' ability to be cut cleanly deteriorates with age so
it would probably break randomly anyway. That's why glazing suppliers make
it look so easy, new glass breaks cleanly.


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

"Lurch" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 23:48:41 +0100, "nightjar" nightjar@insert my
surname here.uk.com mused:


"Stuart Noble" wrote in message
...
Tony Bryer wrote:
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 18:09:53 +0100 Nightjar wrote :
For security, any glass near or in a door should be laminated
(preferable) or Georgian wired glass. Toughened only means that a
burglar does not get hurt when he breaks the pane, while ordinary
wired
glass simply muffles the already quiet noise of it breaking.

All wired glass on sale now is Georgian AFAIK: this just means that the
wires are in a square grid. In times past you could also get wired
glass
with the wires in a chicken wire pattern. Wired glass will break fairly
easily (the wires weaken the glass) but it's much harder to punch a
hole
through it as the wires hold the pieces of glass in place - thus its
main
use in fire resisting doors and screens.


Does it really matter how secure the glass is in a front door?
Presumably
it is mortice locked so removing the glass isn't going to achieve much.

It is not a good idea to deadlock yourself inside a house at night. There
should always be at least one door that can be opened easily from inside,
in
case you need to get out quickly in a fire.

Check your insurance policy!

Mine only requires the deadlocks to be on when the house is unoccupied.

Colin Bignell

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
nightjar nightjar@ wrote:
"Stuart Noble" wrote in message
...
Tony Bryer wrote:
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 18:09:53 +0100 Nightjar wrote :
For security, any glass near or in a door should be laminated
(preferable) or Georgian wired glass. Toughened only means that a
burglar does not get hurt when he breaks the pane, while ordinary
wired glass simply muffles the already quiet noise of it breaking.
All wired glass on sale now is Georgian AFAIK: this just means that the
wires are in a square grid. In times past you could also get wired
glass with the wires in a chicken wire pattern. Wired glass will break
fairly easily (the wires weaken the glass) but it's much harder to
punch a hole through it as the wires hold the pieces of glass in
place - thus its main use in fire resisting doors and screens.

Does it really matter how secure the glass is in a front door?
Presumably it is mortice locked so removing the glass isn't going to
achieve much.

It is not a good idea to deadlock yourself inside a house at night. There
should always be at least one door that can be opened easily from inside,
in case you need to get out quickly in a fire.


That's what windows are for allegedly.

There are not that many people who can keep calm and act rationally in a
smoke-filled building. A lot will go for the exit they know, even if it is
not the best choice. OTOH I have had to help someone out of a window because
he was convinced that crossing 8 feet of smoke-filled stairwell, which I had
just come through, to get to a safe exit was going to kill him. We then had
to work out how to get down from a flat roof, instead of simply walking out
of a door.

Colin Bignell

In article , Nightjar wrote:
It is not a good idea to deadlock yourself inside a house at night. There
should always be at least one door that can be opened easily from inside, in
case you need to get out quickly in a fire.

Fire safety is an issue, but round here it's a *really* good idea to
keep your door locked at all times you're not actually passing through it -
sneak thieves are by no means un-known. And since there isn't a 2-door house
for hundreds of metres, that leaves a lot of people caught between the devil
and the deep-blue sea.

--
Aidan
Aberdeen, Scotland
Written at Tue, 17 Jul 2007 17:56 +0100, but posted later.