I thought I would give an update to a post I made last year (below). I
recently had a completely new central heating system installed. All
the old pipes, radiators and tanks in the loft removed and a brand
spanking new combi-condensing boiler, all new copper pipe work and all
new radiators installed. My original post caused quite a difference of
opinion, people who thought combi boilders were crap, to those who
thought they were great.

In my opinion my new system is great, it beats my old setup hands down
(gravity fed). My house is now warm, something it has never been, and
the water pressure is much better than before and heats up quicker.
From memory I've had a Potterton Gold 28 HE boilder installed. Best
thing I ever did, so glad I didn't take the advice I was given to keep
the original system and just replace the radiators and tank !!!

************************************************** ***********************************
MY ORIGINAL POST IN JULY 2006

Excuse my ignorance however I know nothing about plumbing or central
heating systems but need help with some advice.

I live in a 1930's averaged sized 3 bedroom semi-detached house. The
heating system needs replacing as its not efficient and old. The
radiators we have are too small for the rooms and do not heat them
very
well. We currently have a back-boiler that we want removed and have
what I think is called a 'conventional heating system' (tank in the
loft and storage tank in a cupboard.

A heating engineer came round to quote and advise on what we should
do.

His recommendation was to stay well clear of condensing boilers
(because they are not reliable and hard to fix??) and didn't suggest
a
combi boilder because our pipework wasn't suited.

He suggested keeping the current set-up but replacing the tank,
boiler
and putting new radiators up and heating controls. We are having a
single-storey extension built and the tank would be piped into the
new
extension.

All this was priced at £4000 which seems a lot to me, however I don't
know for sure.

Are condensing boilers that bad and does the pipework make any
difference if you want a combi boiler? Does that price seem excessive
or is that about right?

Any help or advice would be appreciated
************************************************** *************************************

In article .com,
wrote:
In my opinion my new system is great, it beats my old setup hands down
(gravity fed). My house is now warm, something it has never been, and
the water pressure is much better than before and heats up quicker.
From memory I've had a Potterton Gold 28 HE boilder installed. Best
thing I ever did, so glad I didn't take the advice I was given to keep
the original system and just replace the radiators and tank !!!

I doubt anyone advised you to keep a back boiler.

I don't think you quite understand the combi versus storage system pros
and cons if you say 'it heats up quicker'.

--
*A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
wrote:

I thought I would give an update to a post I made last year (below). I
recently had a completely new central heating system installed. All
the old pipes, radiators and tanks in the loft removed and a brand
spanking new combi-condensing boiler, all new copper pipe work and all
new radiators installed. My original post caused quite a difference of
opinion, people who thought combi boilders were crap, to those who
thought they were great.

In my opinion my new system is great, it beats my old setup hands down
(gravity fed). My house is now warm, something it has never been, and
the water pressure is much better than before and heats up quicker.
From memory I've had a Potterton Gold 28 HE boilder installed. Best
thing I ever did, so glad I didn't take the advice I was given to keep
the original system and just replace the radiators and tank !!!


It's horses for courses! The main limitation with combis is that they can't
deliver hot water to the point of use anything like as fast as a stored hot
water system can. However, if you have good mains pressure and flow, have
only one bathroom, and rarely need to fill a bath (preferring to shower
instead) they can sometimes be the best solution.

I don't remember this particular thread, but there have many on the combi vs
conventional theme - often dominated by one particular combi zealot (who
shall remain nameless, but everyone will know who I mean!) who believes that
combi boilers - often in multiples! - are the solution to every maiden's
prayer. Others have therefore felt compelled to put the counter-argument -
perhaps more strongly than is sometimes justified.
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

On 26 Mar 2007 19:57:04 -0700 someone who may be
wrote this:-

In my opinion my new system is great, it beats my old setup hands down
(gravity fed). My house is now warm, something it has never been,

The same thing could have been achieved in a number of ways without
using a combination boiler.

Time will tell whether the original heating engineer was right about
combination boilers breaking down.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

In message , Owain
writes
wrote:
From memory I've had a Potterton Gold 28 HE boilder installed.

Could have been worse, could have been a Suprima :-)

Best keep raden's site bookmarked, just in case.

/me runs away ...

--
geoff

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article .com,
wrote:
In my opinion my new system is great, it beats my old setup hands down
(gravity fed). My house is now warm, something it has never been, and
the water pressure is much better than before and heats up quicker.

I don't think you quite understand the combi versus storage system pros
and cons if you say 'it heats up quicker'.

Presumably the "it" is the house, not the water, though!

David

On 27 Mar, 10:55, "Roger Mills" wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,

It's horses for courses! The main limitation with combis is that they can't
deliver hot water to the point of use anything like as fast as a stored hot
water system can. However, if you have good mains pressure and flow, have
only one bathroom, and rarely need to fill a bath (preferring to shower
instead) they can sometimes be the best solution.

I don't remember this particular thread, but there have many on the combi vs
conventional theme - often dominated by one particular combi zealot (who
shall remain nameless, but everyone will know who I mean!) who believes that
combi boilers - often in multiples! - are the solution to every maiden's
prayer. Others have therefore felt compelled to put the counter-argument -
perhaps more strongly than is sometimes justified.
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

When I posted the original message I was getting quite heated
arguments, some singing the combis praises others telling me to steer
clear because they were unreliable and things like running a bath were
bad because of low water pressure. Some people recommened I kept the
old system (gravity fed) and storage tank, now I have changed it I
cannot see any benefits from this old system.

So far all I can say is the combi works fantastic for me. I'm not sure
what you mean that they don't deliver hot water anywhere near as fast
as stored water, to be honest its takes seconds for hot water to come
through, hardly noticible and the obvious benefit is I'm not heating a
full tank of water for nothing.

My mate who fitted it has had a combi boiler for 8 years in his home
and has fitted several for friends and has never had any problems, so
fingers crossed the nightmare stories I was getting that they break
down all the time won't happen to me.

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
wrote:


So far all I can say is the combi works fantastic for me. I'm not sure
what you mean that they don't deliver hot water anywhere near as fast
as stored water, to be honest its takes seconds for hot water to come
through, hardly noticible and the obvious benefit is I'm not heating a
full tank of water for nothing.

You'll start to get hot water very soon after opening the tap - but that's
not the point I was making. The point is that a combi is taking incoming
cold water and heating it as it passes through. The flow rate is limited by
how fast it can heat it - particularly in the winter when the incoming water
is very cold. So it can take quite a long time to fill a bath compared with
the time taken to dump a cylinder full of already hot water into the bath.
Have you done any comparative timings?
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

The same thing could have been achieved in a number of ways without
Using a combination boiler.

I'm in a situation very similar to pleasnos pre new system (except
existing pipe work is compatible with a combi). Would be very
interested in reading the alternatives?
I don't have a problem with retaining the old back boiler if possible,
but I have a major problem with the monstrosity of a 70's gas fire
which is attached to it and juts out into the room about 2 feet. Have
been told that they either have to be removed or retained as a job lot
and that replacing just the gas fire is not possible. Anyone know if
the plumber I had round is being a bit economical with the truth? He
is doing his best to flog me an entire new system and combi

In article .com,
wrote:
When I posted the original message I was getting quite heated
arguments, some singing the combis praises others telling me to steer
clear because they were unreliable and things like running a bath were
bad because of low water pressure.
Likely the point was made that a combi can't fill a bath as fast as a
decent storage system. This may or may not matter to you.

Some people recommened I kept the
old system (gravity fed) and storage tank, now I have changed it I
cannot see any benefits from this old system.

Sounds like you had a poor old system. They're not all the same.

So far all I can say is the combi works fantastic for me. I'm not sure
what you mean that they don't deliver hot water anywhere near as fast
as stored water, to be honest its takes seconds for hot water to come
through, hardly noticible and the obvious benefit is I'm not heating a
full tank of water for nothing.

You don't take baths, then? That's where it noticeable. Or where you might
need more than one hot tap or shower etc running at once. A combi is
limited in how much water it can deliver at any one time, whereas a well
designed storage system less so.

My mate who fitted it has had a combi boiler for 8 years in his home
and has fitted several for friends and has never had any problems, so
fingers crossed the nightmare stories I was getting that they break
down all the time won't happen to me.

If you've chosen a good make it should be ok. But I'm wondering what made
you choose a Potterton?

--
*You never really learn to swear until you learn to drive *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 28 Mar, 19:46, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article .com,
wrote: When I posted the original message I was getting quite heated
arguments, some singing the combis praises others telling me to steer
clear because they were unreliable and things like running a bath were
bad because of low water pressure.

Likely the point was made that a combi can't fill a bath as fast as a
decent storagesystem. This may or may not matter to you.

Some people recommened I kept the
oldsystem(gravity fed) and storage tank, now I have changed it I
cannot see any benefits from this oldsystem.

Sounds like you had a poor oldsystem. They're not all the same.

So far all I can say is the combi works fantastic for me. I'm not sure
what you mean that they don't deliver hot water anywhere near as fast
as stored water, to be honest its takes seconds for hot water to come
through, hardly noticible and the obvious benefit is I'm notheatinga
full tank of water for nothing.

You don't take baths, then? That's where it noticeable. Or where you might
need more than one hot tap or shower etc running at once. A combi is
limited in how much water it can deliver at any one time, whereas a well
designed storagesystemless so.

My mate who fitted it has had a combi boiler for 8 years in his home
and has fitted several for friends and has never had any problems, so
fingers crossed the nightmare stories I was getting that they break
down all the time won't happen to me.

If you've chosen a good make it should be ok. But I'm wondering what made
you choose aPotterton?

--
*You never really learn to swear until you learn to drive *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Thats my point though, the bath runs just as quick, if not quicker
than before. My old system was very bad and old, believe me our house
was never warm even with the heating on constantly, now its almost
tropical :-)

I've only got one bathroom so I won't have any instance to run baths
and showers together so I can't see that being an issue for me.

The fitter recommended the Potterton (its not the model on
Watchdog !!) and I bought the boiler direct myself so its not like he
had a deal on with someone or one laying around. Like I said he's
never had any problems with any combi he's fitted but he did say
problems can occur when people just change the boiler and leave old
pipework as that can cause problems.

The thing that I like is its hot water on demand as opposed to heating
a tank for nothing, so I should notice lower bills as well.

On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 11:45:09 -0700, Mike wrote:

The same thing could have been achieved in a number of ways without
Using a combination boiler.

I'm in a situation very similar to pleasnos pre new system (except
existing pipe work is compatible with a combi). Would be very
interested in reading the alternatives?
I don't have a problem with retaining the old back boiler if possible,
but I have a major problem with the monstrosity of a 70's gas fire
which is attached to it and juts out into the room about 2 feet. Have
been told that they either have to be removed or retained as a job lot
and that replacing just the gas fire is not possible. Anyone know if
the plumber I had round is being a bit economical with the truth? He
is doing his best to flog me an entire new system and combi

For a while the manufacturers offered update fire fronts to accompany
their BBUs.

In general not only are updated fire fronts no longer available to go with
the back boiler but a BBU is so poor in terms of efficiency it wants to
be slung if at all possible.

Replacing BBUs is an all or nothing matter and the disruption is always
substantial.




--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards

In message .com,
writes

If you've chosen a good make it should be ok. But I'm wondering what made
you choose aPotterton?

The world is full of masochists

*You never really learn to swear until you learn to drive *

I must be a fantastic driver then ...

--
geoff

In article .com,
wrote:
Thats my point though, the bath runs just as quick, if not quicker
than before. My old system was very bad and old, believe me our house
was never warm even with the heating on constantly, now its almost
tropical :-)

Basically you're comparing a badly designed and installed system with one
which has been done properly - I hope. Nowt really to do with the
difference between combi boilers open vented and storage hot water. A back
boiler can heat the house perfectly ok - but of course isn't anything like
as efficient as a modern one, but again a different argument.

I've only got one bathroom so I won't have any instance to run baths
and showers together so I can't see that being an issue for me.

Running the kitchen hot while showering? Running cold? Plenty of houses
don't have high enough mains pressure to allow this without disruption.

The fitter recommended the Potterton (its not the model on
Watchdog !!) and I bought the boiler direct myself so its not like he
had a deal on with someone or one laying around. Like I said he's
never had any problems with any combi he's fitted but he did say
problems can occur when people just change the boiler and leave old
pipework as that can cause problems.

I'm rather surprised if all the combis he's fitted have worked perfectly
for ever. Or near any modern boiler, come to that.

The thing that I like is its hot water on demand as opposed to heating
a tank for nothing, so I should notice lower bills as well.

Hot water doesn't cost that much in the scheme of things. And a well
insulated cylinder doesn't loose much heat.

--
*Geeks shall inherit the earth *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 29 Mar, 00:06, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article .com,
wrote:

Thats my point though, the bath runs just as quick, if not quicker
than before. My oldsystemwas very bad and old, believe me our house
was never warm even with theheatingon constantly, now its almost
tropical :-)

Basically you're comparing a badly designed and installedsystemwith one
which has been done properly - I hope. Nowt really to do with the
difference between combi boilers open vented and storage hot water. A back
boiler can heat the house perfectly ok - but of course isn't anything like
as efficient as a modern one, but again a different argument.

I've only got one bathroom so I won't have any instance to run baths
and showers together so I can't see that being an issue for me.

Running the kitchen hot while showering? Running cold? Plenty of houses
don't have high enough mains pressure to allow this without disruption.

The fitter recommended thePotterton(its not the model on
Watchdog !!) and I bought the boiler direct myself so its not like he
had a deal on with someone or one laying around. Like I said he's
never had any problems with any combi he's fitted but he did say
problems can occur when people just change the boiler and leave old
pipework as that can cause problems.

I'm rather surprised if all the combis he's fitted have worked perfectly
for ever. Or near any modern boiler, come to that.

The thing that I like is its hot water on demand as opposed toheating
a tank for nothing, so I should notice lower bills as well.

Hot water doesn't cost that much in the scheme of things. And a well
insulated cylinder doesn't loose much heat.

--
*Geeks shall inherit the earth *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

I'm not trying to say my system is better than any other system, I
guess they all have plus and minuses. The point of my post was just to
say that the system I now have works for me, the impression I was
getting from some last year was I should steer clear of this method.
Why the original fitter I saw recommended keeping the old system I
don't know, maybe it was just easier for him to do?

All I can say is it now works for me and works really well. I
certainly wouldn't go back to the old system, and I have had the old
systems in previous houses, that did work well, and even they don't
compare to the combi set-up. My biggest gripe was always heating a big
tank of water up, or having to heat a tank of water up if you needed a
bath. I don't have this problem now I just turn the tap on and its hot
whenever I want it. To me it was money well spent.

I spoke to the fitter about why some people didn't like combi boilers
and he said it was because many of the early ones were from abroad and
engineers over here didn't know how to fix them. As the years have
gone on he said Britain started making their own boilers and they have
got better and better. He seemed to think many fitters remember the
problems from years ago and have steered clear since, still assuming
they are the same.

He did say however that combis being fitted onto crap pipework, or
cheap combis being fitted do cause problems.

On 28 Mar 2007 21:25:28 -0700 someone who may be
wrote this:-

My biggest gripe was always heating a big
tank of water up, or having to heat a tank of water up if you needed a
bath.

As others have said, you are not comparing like with like. A
cylinder fitted today will be properly insulated and will maintain a
sensible temperature all day if no water is drawn off. It will only
need re-heating as water is drawn off.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On 28 Mar 2007 11:45:09 -0700 someone who may be "Mike"
wrote this:-

I'm in a situation very similar to pleasnos pre new system (except
existing pipe work is compatible with a combi). Would be very
interested in reading the alternatives?

Keeping the house warm is firstly a function of how well the house
is insulated. Get that sorted out first.

After that the method of heat distribution within the house becomes
important. However, this system can be connected to any sort of
boiler.

I don't have a problem with retaining the old back boiler if possible,

Back boilers are inefficient. When they get near the end of their
life it is time to replace them with a modern boiler. This might be
a combination boiler, but there is no need to have a combination
boiler. A lot of people appear confused by what a condensing boiler
is and what a combination boiler is.

At the same time it is worthwhile looking at the heat distribution
system to avoid two lots of disruption.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

In article .com,
wrote:
I'm not trying to say my system is better than any other system, I
guess they all have plus and minuses. The point of my post was just to
say that the system I now have works for me, the impression I was
getting from some last year was I should steer clear of this method.

You seem still not to have taken on board the disadvantages of a combi for
many people. That your domestic circumstances are such that it is fine for
you means either you don't really understand what was being explained or
it was explained badly.

Why the original fitter I saw recommended keeping the old system I
don't know, maybe it was just easier for him to do?

Basically pipes don't wear out. Neither do rads if inhibitor has been
used. So if they were both well designed and in good condition replacing
them is just throwing money away. Of course other factors may apply -
which are impossible to know without seeing and assessing the system. If
the old system never worked properly then replacing it all could well be
the best approach - but posts on here usually give general advice since
the posters haven't seen your actual installation.

All I can say is it now works for me and works really well. I
certainly wouldn't go back to the old system, and I have had the old
systems in previous houses, that did work well, and even they don't
compare to the combi set-up. My biggest gripe was always heating a big
tank of water up, or having to heat a tank of water up if you needed a
bath. I don't have this problem now I just turn the tap on and its hot
whenever I want it. To me it was money well spent.

Again you seem to be remembering some crude system. Most will be automatic
so you never have to wait for a tank to heat up. It also sounds like your
hot water use is tiny compared to most

I spoke to the fitter about why some people didn't like combi boilers
and he said it was because many of the early ones were from abroad and
engineers over here didn't know how to fix them. As the years have
gone on he said Britain started making their own boilers and they have
got better and better. He seemed to think many fitters remember the
problems from years ago and have steered clear since, still assuming
they are the same.

What he won't have mentioned is that combis are easier to install so give
bigger profits...

He did say however that combis being fitted onto crap pipework, or
cheap combis being fitted do cause problems.

'Crap' pipework will cause problems with any system. However a mains
pressure system doesn't need anything like the care installation wise to
'work' - another reason plumbers like them.

And you still seem to be confusing what a combi does. The reference to
crap pipework applies to any boiler type. Hot water pipework that worked
ok with a storage system will work ok with a combi - obviously with some
modification. The reverse isn't usually the case.

--
* What do they call a coffee break at the Lipton Tea Company? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

The message .com
from contains these words:

Some people recommened I kept the
old system (gravity fed) and storage tank, now I have changed it I
cannot see any benefits from this old system.

Are you sure about that? I don't recall any regular singing the praises
of a gravity system. (But then I don't read all contributions these days
and often come late to a thread as in this instance.) A storage system
with pumped circulation is a different ball game however and don't
forget that as far as the central heating is concerned there is no
difference between conventional and combi. It is just the domestic hot
water supply that is different. And it is a fact (whatever Dribble may
say to the contrary) that a well ordered storage system will deliver a
hot bath considerably faster than any domestic combi.

--
Roger Chapman

Roger wrote:
The message .com
from contains these words:

Some people recommened I kept the
old system (gravity fed) and storage tank, now I have changed it I
cannot see any benefits from this old system.

Are you sure about that? I don't recall any regular singing the praises
of a gravity system. (But then I don't read all contributions these days
and often come late to a thread as in this instance.) A storage system
with pumped circulation is a different ball game however and don't
forget that as far as the central heating is concerned there is no
difference between conventional and combi. It is just the domestic hot
water supply that is different. And it is a fact (whatever Dribble may
say to the contrary) that a well ordered storage system will deliver a
hot bath considerably faster than any domestic combi.

Indeed it will, and it won't slow to a trickle when someone is washing
their hands..

Combis are great in a house or flat with a space problem and up to three
people only..beyond that a pressurised storage system is the only way to
go really.

If you get a combi that WILL deliver the peak output for a larger house,
its bigger and more expensive and needs some pretty big pipework to keep
the flows up..the pressurised how water cylinder ends up no more
expensive AND it can be ticked in any old corner really. Whereas a 30KW
combi cannot.

On 30 Mar, 23:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Roger wrote:
The message .com
from contains these words:

Some people recommened I kept the
old system (gravity fed) and storage tank, now I have changed it I
cannot see any benefits from this old system.

Are you sure about that? I don't recall any regular singing the praises
of a gravity system. (But then I don't read all contributions these days
and often come late to a thread as in this instance.) A storage system
with pumped circulation is a different ball game however and don't
forget that as far as the central heating is concerned there is no
difference between conventional and combi. It is just the domestic hot
water supply that is different. And it is a fact (whateverDribblemay
say to the contrary) that a well ordered storage system will deliver a
hot bath considerably faster than any domestic combi.

Indeed it will, and it won't slow to a trickle when someone is washing
their hands..

I disagree. I have fitted high flow rate combis and they are as good,
if not better, than old gravity storage water systems.

Combis are great in a house or flat with a space problem and up to three
people only..beyond that a pressurised storage system is the only way to
go really.

You really should get to know the market in modern combis

If you get a combi that WILL deliver the peak output for a larger house,
its bigger and more expensive and needs some pretty big pipework to keep
the flows up.

The pipework is not bigger than a gravity storage system.

.the pressurised how water cylinder ends up no more
expensive

I disagree. Do some pricing and the savings in pipework, labour and
time.

In article . com,
wrote:
I disagree. I have fitted high flow rate combis and they are as good,
if not better, than old gravity storage water systems.

Then you are describing a poor storage system. My bath tap delivers 40
litres per minute of water at 60C - regardless of outside temperature.
There's not a domestic combi that can match that. Even high flow types
will struggle to produce half that figure.

--
*Do infants enjoy infancy as much as adults enjoy adultery? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 9 Apr, 19:05, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article . com,
wrote:

I disagree. I have fitted high flow rate combis and they are as good,
if not better, than old gravity storage water systems.

Then you are describing a poor storage system. My bath tap delivers 40
litres per minute of water at 60C - regardless of outside temperature.
There's not a domestic combi that can match that. Even high flow types
will struggle to produce half that figure.

40 litres per minute on a tank and cylinder with the tank a few feet
above? I don't believe you unless all is in 28mm with few bends and
elbows and large bore hospital non-mixer type of taps. The average
gravity tank and cylinder setup is not that good at all.

In an average house with a good mains water supply a modern combi or
top rated multi-point water heater will outperform cumbersome
cylinders and tanks and save space and be cheaper to install. I know,
I have fitted many of them, unlike yourself.

I fitted an oil combi with a large water capacity, a sort of thermal
store and the performance was superb.

In article .com,
wrote:
On 9 Apr, 19:05, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article . com,
wrote:

I disagree. I have fitted high flow rate combis and they are as good,
if not better, than old gravity storage water systems.

Then you are describing a poor storage system. My bath tap delivers 40
litres per minute of water at 60C - regardless of outside temperature.
There's not a domestic combi that can match that. Even high flow types
will struggle to produce half that figure.

40 litres per minute on a tank and cylinder with the tank a few feet
above? I don't believe you unless all is in 28mm with few bends and
elbows and large bore hospital non-mixer type of taps.

Believe what you want. It has a reasonable head such as you can get in
most houses and carefully designed and installed 22mm pipework.

The average
gravity tank and cylinder setup is not that good at all.

Badly installed ones, yes.

In an average house with a good mains water supply a modern combi or
top rated multi-point water heater will outperform cumbersome
cylinders and tanks and save space and be cheaper to install. I know,
I have fitted many of them, unlike yourself.

Just shows you don't know how to install a storage system properly - and
have low expectations of hot water flow. After all, you are doing up
houses for a quick sale, and the sort who buys these won't know either.

I fitted an oil combi with a large water capacity, a sort of thermal
store and the performance was superb.

If it has a thermal store, it's not an instantaneous heater anymore - so
the combi arguments don't apply.

BTW, what have you done with your pal Drivel?

--
*Could it be that "I do " is the longest sentence? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

wrote in message
oups.com...
On 9 Apr, 19:05, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article . com,
wrote:

I disagree. I have fitted high flow rate combis and they are as good,
if not better, than old gravity storage water systems.

Then you are describing a poor storage system. My bath tap delivers 40
litres per minute of water at 60C - regardless of outside temperature.
There's not a domestic combi that can match that. Even high flow types
will struggle to produce half that figure.

40 litres per minute on a tank and cylinder with the tank a few feet
above? I don't believe you unless all is in 28mm with few bends and
elbows and large bore hospital non-mixer type of taps. The average
gravity tank and cylinder setup is not that good at all.

In an average house with a good mains water supply a modern combi or
top rated multi-point water heater will outperform cumbersome
cylinders and tanks and save space and be cheaper to install. I know,
I have fitted many of them, unlike yourself.

I fitted an oil combi with a large water capacity, a sort of thermal
store and the performance was superb.


You need to apply to work for the Warmfront Grant Scheme then if you claim
the supply and fitting of a combination boiler is cheaper than any other
system. Every other gas fitting company must be wrong as they have all
provided proof that it it isn't. That's how they got the contracts. So if
you know different then I suggest you contact the Warmfront Grant Scheme and
tell them as you seem to suggest everyone else is wrong.
Let's see, hundreds of companies against one person. I know which I believe
after seeing all the costings.
You might also like to do a bit of research on boilers and heating systems
as you sound like you're stuck in the 80's. I take it you're between 45 and
50 years old from your outdated views that were once popular belief.

On 29 Apr, 12:58, "Bob" wrote:
wrote in message

oups.com...





On 9 Apr, 19:05, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article . com,
wrote:

I disagree. I have fitted high flow rate combis and they are as good,
if not better, than old gravity storage water systems.

Then you are describing a poor storage system. My bath tap delivers 40
litres per minute of water at 60C - regardless of outside temperature.
There's not a domestic combi that can match that. Even high flow types
will struggle to produce half that figure.

40 litres per minute on a tank and cylinder with the tank a few feet
above? I don't believe you unless all is in 28mm with few bends and
elbows and large bore hospital non-mixer type of taps. The average
gravity tank and cylinder setup is not that good at all.

In an average house with a good mains water supply a modern combi or
top rated multi-point water heater will outperform cumbersome
cylinders and tanks and save space and be cheaper to install. I know,
I have fitted many of them, unlike yourself.

I fitted an oil combi with a large water capacity, a sort of thermal
store and the performance was superb.

You need to apply to work for the Warmfront Grant Scheme then if you claim
the supply and fitting of a combination boiler is cheaper than any other
system.

It is by a mile less pipe and labour maioing it quicker as well.

Every other gas fitting company must be wrong as they have all
provided proof that it it isn't.

They have? New to me and cost these up.

That's how they got the contracts.

Backhanders?

So if you know different then I suggest you contact
the Warmfront Grant Scheme and
tell them as you seem to suggest everyone else is wrong.

Antone who can count can work out combis are cheaper to install, one
of the strong selling points.

What planet are you on?

On 29 Apr, 12:22, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article .com,
wrote:

On 9 Apr, 19:05, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article . com,
wrote:

I disagree. I have fitted high flow rate combis and they are as good,
if not better, than old gravity storage water systems.

Then you are describing a poor storage system. My bath tap delivers 40
litres per minute of water at 60C - regardless of outside temperature.
There's not a domestic combi that can match that. Even high flow types
will struggle to produce half that figure.
40 litres per minute on a tank and cylinder with the tank a few feet
above? I don't believe you unless all is in 28mm with few bends and
elbows and large bore hospital non-mixer type of taps.

Believe what you want. It has a reasonable head such as you can get in
most houses and carefully designed and installed 22mm pipework.

The average
gravity tank and cylinder setup is not that good at all.

Badly installed ones, yes.

You clearly are talking bollox.

In an average house with a good mains water supply a modern combi or
top rated multi-point water heater will outperform cumbersome
cylinders and tanks and save space and be cheaper to install. I know,
I have fitted many of them, unlike yourself.

Just shows you don't know how to install a storage system properly - and
have low expectations of hot water flow. After all, you are doing up
houses for a quick sale, and the sort who buys these won't know either.

I go for high flowrates that don't run out of hot water. Instant
water heating does that, either using combis, multi-points or thermal
stores.

I fitted an oil combi with a large water capacity, a sort of thermal
store and the performance was superb.

If it has a thermal store, it's not an instantaneous heater anymore - so
the combi arguments don't apply.

You realy don't know. The water jacket on most oil boilers is so large
they are almost like a thermal store, that is why oil combis deliver
the flowrates

BTW, what have you done with your pal Drivel?

I wish he was about as he would put you in your silly place. I hope no
one takes any notice of inexperienced people like you.

On 2007-04-29 22:17:27 +0100, said:

Antone who can count can work out combis are cheaper to install, one
of the strong selling points.


To get completely right and have equivalent performance to a storage system?

Materials *and* time?

On 29 Apr, 22:27, Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-04-29 22:17:27 +0100, said:



Antone who can count can work out combis are cheaper to install, one
of the strong selling points.

To get completely right and have equivalent performance to a storage system?

Yes.

Materials *and* time?

Yes.

The products are on the market. They are there. It is cost effective.
And they save time to install and space in a house. Get into the 21st
century.

If I was fitting an oil boiler it would be an outside fitted oil combi
every time. They do deliver the DHW performace and save space in the
house, and noise, and make the house more fire safe as well, as all is
outside.

In article .com,
wrote:
So if you know different then I suggest you contact
the Warmfront Grant Scheme and
tell them as you seem to suggest everyone else is wrong.

Antone who can count can work out combis are cheaper to install, one
of the strong selling points.

Yes they're cheaper to install on a new build or brand new system. But
that doesn't stop the likes of you saying they are cheaper to *replace* an
existing storage system regardless. You're a 'one size fits all' type.

--
*If they arrest the Energizer Bunny, would they charge it with battery? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article . com,
wrote:
BTW, what have you done with your pal Drivel?

I wish he was about as he would put you in your silly place.

Strange given he never managed to in all those years.

I hope no one takes any notice of inexperienced people like you.

Your 'experience' seems to have come rather quickly. It seems only
recently you were asking advice here on the most basic of things. So I'd
rather listen to those with a few years in. And as I said, doing houses up
for a quick sale is a very different matter to doing things properly for
your own house.

--
*What happens if you get scared half to death twice? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
Antone who can count can work out combis are cheaper to install, one
of the strong selling points.


To get completely right and have equivalent performance to a storage
system?

Materials *and* time?

They are cheaper to install. One of their strong selling points - to the
installer.

--
*If you remember the '60s, you weren't really there

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 2007-04-29 22:44:06 +0100, said:

On 29 Apr, 22:27, Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-04-29 22:17:27 +0100, said:



Antone who can count can work out combis are cheaper to install, one
of the strong selling points.

To get completely right and have equivalent performance to a storage system?

Yes.

Materials *and* time?

Yes.

The products are on the market. They are there. It is cost effective.

That wasn't the question.

On 29 Apr, 22:52, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:

Antone who can count can work out combis are cheaper to install, one
of the strong selling points.
To get completely right and have equivalent performance to a storage
system?
Materials *and* time?

They are cheaper to install. One of their strong selling points - to the
installer.

You managed to figure that one out.

On 29 Apr, 22:47, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article .com,
wrote:

So if you know different then I suggest you contact
the Warmfront Grant Scheme and
tell them as you seem to suggest everyone else is wrong.
Antone who can count can work out combis are cheaper to install, one
of the strong selling points.

Yes they're cheaper to install on a new build or brand new system. But
that doesn't stop the likes of you saying they are cheaper to *replace* an
existing storage system regardless. You're a 'one size fits all' type.

I have found none more expensive and they save space.

On 29 Apr, 22:51, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article . com,
wrote:

BTW, what have you done with your pal Drivel?
I wish he was about as he would put you in your silly place.

Strange given he never managed to in all those years.

It was very funny the way he made you look at total prat.

I hope no one takes any notice of inexperienced people like you.

Your 'experience' seems to have come rather quickly.

7 years

It seems only
recently you were asking advice here on the most basic of things.

I don't think you would know what basic things was.

So I'd
rather listen to those with a few years in.

7 years

And as I said, doing houses up
for a quick sale is a very different matter to doing things properly for
your own house.

Modern houses want high pressure shower than don't run out of DHW.
Many of them like body jet showers. Look in B&Q these days, they even
sell them there, as this is the 21st century, not 1956.

You don't know what you are talking about.

In article . com,
wrote:
BTW, what have you done with your pal Drivel?
I wish he was about as he would put you in your silly place.

Strange given he never managed to in all those years.

It was very funny the way he made you look at total prat.

By posting the same replies to every point? And telling lies about near
everything? Are you him under a new name - it's about time that happened
again.

--
*Beware - animal lover - brakes for pussy*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 30 Apr, 00:42, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article . com,
wrote:

BTW, what have you done with your pal Drivel?
I wish he was about as he would put you in your silly place.

Strange given he never managed to in all those years.
It was very funny the way he made you look at total prat.

By posting the same replies to every point?

Here is another clueless prat.