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Default Cross Vice

No I am not looking for some kind of transgender addictive habit, but
an accessory for a drill press.

This is the type of vice that bolts to the table of the drill press and
has lead screws with handles and a conventional opening jaw at the top.
The lead screws make for fine adjustment in the X and Y axes.

I am wondering whether anybody has a good quality one of these. I am
looking for a large one - 150mm or so.

So far, from Google searching, I have found two products:

- Machine Mart

- Sealey

I imagine these are the usual Chinese products and they may be OK, but
I am certainly not looking for something with wobbly backlash.

Does anyone have something better or a recommendation for something better?



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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
No I am not looking for some kind of transgender addictive habit, but
an accessory for a drill press.

This is the type of vice that bolts to the table of the drill press and
has lead screws with handles and a conventional opening jaw at the top.
The lead screws make for fine adjustment in the X and Y axes.

I am wondering whether anybody has a good quality one of these. I am
looking for a large one - 150mm or so.

So far, from Google searching, I have found two products:

- Machine Mart

- Sealey

I imagine these are the usual Chinese products and they may be OK, but
I am certainly not looking for something with wobbly backlash.

Does anyone have something better or a recommendation for something

better?




I've got one o those on me Aldi bench drill. :-) have you tried ebay?

There's only one at the moment



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"George" wrote in message
. ..

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
No I am not looking for some kind of transgender addictive habit, but
an accessory for a drill press.

This is the type of vice that bolts to the table of the drill press and
has lead screws with handles and a conventional opening jaw at the top.
The lead screws make for fine adjustment in the X and Y axes.

I am wondering whether anybody has a good quality one of these. I am
looking for a large one - 150mm or so.

So far, from Google searching, I have found two products:

- Machine Mart

- Sealey

I imagine these are the usual Chinese products and they may be OK, but
I am certainly not looking for something with wobbly backlash.

Does anyone have something better or a recommendation for something

better?




I've got one o those on me Aldi bench drill. :-) have you tried ebay?

There's only one at the moment




Tell a lie theres a few type in...

Drill press vice in ebays search box.


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On 2007-03-23 23:39:49 +0000, "George" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
No I am not looking for some kind of transgender addictive habit, but
an accessory for a drill press.

This is the type of vice that bolts to the table of the drill press and
has lead screws with handles and a conventional opening jaw at the top.
The lead screws make for fine adjustment in the X and Y axes.

I am wondering whether anybody has a good quality one of these. I am
looking for a large one - 150mm or so.

So far, from Google searching, I have found two products:

- Machine Mart

- Sealey

I imagine these are the usual Chinese products and they may be OK, but
I am certainly not looking for something with wobbly backlash.

Does anyone have something better or a recommendation for something

better?




I've got one o those on me Aldi bench drill. :-) have you tried ebay?

There's only one at the moment


mmm...

I see that there is one offering the Sealey product for £63....


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Andy Hall wrote:


I am wondering whether anybody has a good quality one of these. I am
looking for a large one - 150mm or so.


Axminster also have a few:

http://www.axminster.co.uk/recno/8/p...ces-377048.htm
http://www.axminster.co.uk/recno/12/...able-21825.htm



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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On 2007-03-24 03:08:33 +0000, John Rumm said:

Andy Hall wrote:


I am wondering whether anybody has a good quality one of these. I am
looking for a large one - 150mm or so.


Axminster also have a few:

http://www.axminster.co.uk/recno/8/p...ces-377048.htm

http://www.axminster.co.uk/recno/12/...able-21825.htm

Thanks

John

I'm looking for something quite substantial, like their 340217 product,
but a bit larger and ideally a better quality.


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On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 07:54:15 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

I'm looking for something quite substantial, like their 340217 product,
but a bit larger and ideally a better quality.


The quality of much of the Chinese machine tools has improved
considerably in the last few years and much of it is equal to
European equipment but at much lower prices. Where they do fall short
(using things like poor quality set screws for example) it is often
very easy to improve them. The basic casting and machining is
certainly now of very good quality.

Warco (http://www.warco.co.uk/shop.asp?catid=60&ProdId=674#674) have
some but only up to 5" jaw opening.

Chronos have a nice Soba Compound Table (MX1209) but at 80mm it is
probably rather small
http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/index.html?http%3A//www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/Chronos_Catalogue_Other_Milling_Vices_69.html&Cata logBody

They also have a 6" cross vice further down the page which might be
nearer the size you are looking for.

Something worth bearing in mind if you intend to use these with a
drill press is the height of the damn things. I've got a 6" jaw one
and the top of the vice jaws are 5" off the table, the vice bed is
4.5" off the table. Unless you have a long column drill press this
can be quite restrictive.

Obviously these vices are ideal for drilling but despite what a few
purveyors say I've never found them adequate for even light milling.
If you want to use a drill press for occasional milling (which it
isn't very good at) you really need a machine vice like the Chronos
10074.

For heavier alternatives your best bet is the second hand market
although cross vices are not common as they were never really liked
in commercial machine shops.

http://www.homeandworkshop.co.uk/ or RA Atkins in Guildford (01483
811146) might have something suitable. They also occasionally come
up in industrial auctions.

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/
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On 23 Mar, 23:33, Andy Hall wrote:

No I am not looking for some kind of transgender addictive habit, but
an accessory for a drill press.


Why is the vice cross? Or is that just one of its vices.

NT

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For heavier alternatives your best bet is the second hand market
although cross vices are not common as they were never really liked
in commercial machine shops.


Forgot to say you could also try http://www.homeworkshop.org.uk/

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/
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On 2007-03-24 11:51:56 +0000, Peter Parry said:

On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 07:54:15 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

I'm looking for something quite substantial, like their 340217 product,
but a bit larger and ideally a better quality.


The quality of much of the Chinese machine tools has improved
considerably in the last few years and much of it is equal to
European equipment but at much lower prices. Where they do fall short
(using things like poor quality set screws for example) it is often
very easy to improve them. The basic casting and machining is
certainly now of very good quality.


That was one of my concerns - if there is a lot of backlash, or worse
still a tendency to move, it would be a bit useless. I suppose
that some replacement of screws could help.



Warco (http://www.warco.co.uk/shop.asp?catid=60&ProdId=674#674) have
some but only up to 5" jaw opening.


Yes I saw this site - this one appears to be the same as the MachineMart one.



Chronos have a nice Soba Compound Table (MX1209) but at 80mm it is
probably rather small
http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/index.html?http%3A//www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/Chronos_Catalogue_Other_Milling_Vices_69.html&Cata logBody


I

saw this product as well and looking at the photo, it does look as
though the build quality is a lot better than the other products. It
could be OK - possibly I could make something to clamp into it and then
clamp work to that. Possibly they might have a larger one. My guess
is that it's Japanese. A Google search for the web site seems
unsuccessful though since it appears that soba is also a type of
Japanese noodle.



They also have a 6" cross vice further down the page which might be
nearer the size you are looking for.


I saw that too. It appears to be the same as the Sealey one.

Looking at various better quality pictures, it's hard to tell whether
the MachineMart style is better or worse than the Sealey style.




Something worth bearing in mind if you intend to use these with a
drill press is the height of the damn things. I've got a 6" jaw one
and the top of the vice jaws are 5" off the table, the vice bed is
4.5" off the table. Unless you have a long column drill press this
can be quite restrictive.


Fortunately I'm OK here. It's floor standing, so no height issue.



Obviously these vices are ideal for drilling but despite what a few
purveyors say I've never found them adequate for even light milling.


Drilling is really the main application. I may occasionally do a
little milling, but that is more likely to be in engineering plastic
than metal



If you want to use a drill press for occasional milling (which it
isn't very good at) you really need a machine vice like the Chronos
10074.


Nice product.

I'm not keen on using the drill press for much other than its original
purpose. There are other potential applications such as morticing is
wood, for which there are accessories. However, with the forces
involved (in that case vertical), I'm not sure that it would do the
bearings much good; so I avoided the temptation. Plus the set up time
is considerable. I addressed that requirement with a horizontal
morticer.



For heavier alternatives your best bet is the second hand market
although cross vices are not common as they were never really liked
in commercial machine shops.

http://www.homeandworkshop.co.uk/ or RA Atkins in Guildford (01483
811146) might have something suitable. They also occasionally come
up in industrial auctions.


Looks as though there are a few other manufacturer names there as well,
so I'll look a bit further at these as well.

Many thanks





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Peter Parry wrote:
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 07:54:15 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

I'm looking for something quite substantial, like their 340217 product,
but a bit larger and ideally a better quality.


The quality of much of the Chinese machine tools has improved
considerably in the last few years and much of it is equal to
European equipment but at much lower prices. Where they do fall short
(using things like poor quality set screws for example) it is often
very easy to improve them. The basic casting and machining is
certainly now of very good quality.

Warco (http://www.warco.co.uk/shop.asp?catid=60&ProdId=674#674) have
some but only up to 5" jaw opening.

Chronos have a nice Soba Compound Table (MX1209) but at 80mm it is
probably rather small
http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/index.html?http%3A//www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/Chronos_Catalogue_Other_Milling_Vices_69.html&Cata logBody

They also have a 6" cross vice further down the page which might be
nearer the size you are looking for.

Something worth bearing in mind if you intend to use these with a
drill press is the height of the damn things. I've got a 6" jaw one
and the top of the vice jaws are 5" off the table, the vice bed is
4.5" off the table. Unless you have a long column drill press this
can be quite restrictive.

Obviously these vices are ideal for drilling but despite what a few
purveyors say I've never found them adequate for even light milling.
If you want to use a drill press for occasional milling (which it
isn't very good at) you really need a machine vice like the Chronos
10074.

For heavier alternatives your best bet is the second hand market
although cross vices are not common as they were never really liked
in commercial machine shops.

http://www.homeandworkshop.co.uk/ or RA Atkins in Guildford (01483
811146) might have something suitable. They also occasionally come
up in industrial auctions.


Vacuum clamp maybe?
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On 2007-03-24 12:31:34 +0000, Peter Parry said:


For heavier alternatives your best bet is the second hand market
although cross vices are not common as they were never really liked
in commercial machine shops.


Forgot to say you could also try http://www.homeworkshop.org.uk/


Plus a page of additional supplier links.

thanks again



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On 24 Mar, 12:46, Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-03-24 11:52:00 +0000, said:
On 23 Mar, 23:33, Andy Hall wrote:


No I am not looking for some kind of transgender addictive habit, but
an accessory for a drill press.


Why is the vice cross? Or is that just one of its vices.


Well wouldn't you be if someone screwed you around all day.....


ha, yep


NT

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On 2007-03-24 12:48:15 +0000, Stuart Noble
said:

Vacuum clamp maybe?


I have some of these (Airpress Vac Pots) that I use for woodworking.
They are very effective for holding work for routing etc. on the bench.

For this application, I need the 2 dimensional adjustability without
undoing clamps and moving things.

However, perhaps in combination...




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In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:

That was one of my concerns - if there is a lot of backlash, or
worse still a tendency to move, it would be a bit useless.
I suppose that some replacement of screws could help.


I have a cheap X-Y vice that was bundled in with
this Warco pillar drill. Faults are......

The clasp nuts are only fixed with nasty little grub
screws going into threads cut in the cast iron.
No matter how much I heave on these screws there
is still a tiny slop in the clasp nuts.

There is a slight slop between the lead screws and
the clasp nuts. There is no means (like a locknut)
to tighten this up.

The grub screws that key into grooves in the lead
screws and stop end-end movement need to be very
tight, so much so that movements are hard work.

The jaws of the vice are very slightly off with
respect to the X-Y movement. It means that when
I mill (say) a slot in an aluminium plate then
it is not quite parallel with the edges.

That said, even with all those faults, that X-Y
vice has done some seriously good work, doing
quick rectangular milling jobs, holding-safe
material that can snatch (Brass!), etc.

I've probably knackered the headstock bearings though.

--
Tony Williams.
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On 2007-03-24 14:08:33 +0000, Tony Williams said:

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:

That was one of my concerns - if there is a lot of backlash, or
worse still a tendency to move, it would be a bit useless.
I suppose that some replacement of screws could help.


I have a cheap X-Y vice that was bundled in with
this Warco pillar drill. Faults are......

The clasp nuts are only fixed with nasty little grub
screws going into threads cut in the cast iron.
No matter how much I heave on these screws there
is still a tiny slop in the clasp nuts.

There is a slight slop between the lead screws and
the clasp nuts. There is no means (like a locknut)
to tighten this up.


Not sure what you mean by clasp nuts.. Are these the assemblies
fitted on the outside of the castings through which the lead screws
first pass?




The grub screws that key into grooves in the lead
screws and stop end-end movement need to be very
tight, so much so that movements are hard work.

The jaws of the vice are very slightly off with
respect to the X-Y movement. It means that when
I mill (say) a slot in an aluminium plate then
it is not quite parallel with the edges.

That said, even with all those faults, that X-Y
vice has done some seriously good work, doing
quick rectangular milling jobs, holding-safe
material that can snatch (Brass!), etc.

I've probably knackered the headstock bearings though.


Mmm... OK.

I'm more interested in a quick way to align pieces for drilling a set
of holes without having to completely unclamp the work.
Occasionally I mill plastic...


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On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 12:45:41 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

That was one of my concerns - if there is a lot of backlash, or worse
still a tendency to move, it would be a bit useless. I suppose
that some replacement of screws could help.


The 6" one I have is about 8 years old and similar to the Chronos one
in looks. I was looking at a Chronos one a month or so ago and it
looked better finished than mine was (which reflects the significant
improvement in quality in the last few years). That said the only
work I did on mine to make it respectable was to throw away the
various plasticine grub screws and replace them with real ones. The
basic machining of the cast iron was fine.

Don't forget that both ways (x and y) have an adjustable gib strip
and three adjusting screws with lock nuts on each strip to enable the
dovetail to be adjusted to remove excess play. The gib strips on mine
I polished a little bit with a fine file to give a smoother movement.
With the adjustable gibs you can control the stiffness of movement
easily and take out any slack on the ways. When correctly adjusted
the vice is very solid.

There will always be a bit of backlash in Acme threads as they have
limited clearance at the major diameters of the external and internal
threads so that a bearing at the major diameter maintains approximate
alignment of the thread axis and prevent wedging on the flanks of the
threads. However it's more of an issue with positioning systems
where you have to approach the target from either direction. If your
concern is more about how stable the vice position is I don't think
you need worry. Once you have adjusted the gibs (not something you
need to do often) the vice certainly won't move when drilling, there
is no creep at all
--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/
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On 2007-03-24 17:44:30 +0000, Peter Parry said:

On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 12:45:41 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

That was one of my concerns - if there is a lot of backlash, or worse
still a tendency to move, it would be a bit useless. I suppose
that some replacement of screws could help.


The 6" one I have is about 8 years old and similar to the Chronos one
in looks. I was looking at a Chronos one a month or so ago and it
looked better finished than mine was (which reflects the significant
improvement in quality in the last few years).


Ah, OK, I guess that they are not far from you...

It's hard to tell from the little sketch photo, but do you remember if
it looks like the machinemart one?

http://tinyurl.com/36wxyq




That said the only
work I did on mine to make it respectable was to throw away the
various plasticine grub screws and replace them with real ones. The
basic machining of the cast iron was fine.


Do you know of hand if they are metric (at least on yours) and can you
suggest a source?
Also, do they come with clamp bolts for the drill press table? Until
now, I've been using my drill press pretty much in connection with
woodworking and the table I have for that doesn't need them. I looked
on the Chronos site, but couldn't see anything obvious by way of clamp
bolts.



Don't forget that both ways (x and y) have an adjustable gib strip
and three adjusting screws with lock nuts on each strip to enable the
dovetail to be adjusted to remove excess play. The gib strips on mine
I polished a little bit with a fine file to give a smoother movement.
With the adjustable gibs you can control the stiffness of movement
easily and take out any slack on the ways. When correctly adjusted
the vice is very solid.

There will always be a bit of backlash in Acme threads as they have
limited clearance at the major diameters of the external and internal
threads so that a bearing at the major diameter maintains approximate
alignment of the thread axis and prevent wedging on the flanks of the
threads. However it's more of an issue with positioning systems
where you have to approach the target from either direction. If your
concern is more about how stable the vice position is I don't think
you need worry. Once you have adjusted the gibs (not something you
need to do often) the vice certainly won't move when drilling, there
is no creep at all


Yes, in fact for most of the things I can think of, it would be a case
of approach from one side and increment.

many thanks


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On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 18:22:33 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

On 2007-03-24 17:44:30 +0000, Peter Parry said:


It's hard to tell from the little sketch photo, but do you remember if
it looks like the machinemart one?

http://tinyurl.com/36wxyq


Identical, I'm not sure whether all the Chinese factories reproduce
the same common design or whether one factory supplies everyone. No
matter who the vendor is the products are often identical! The only
difference appears to be in the paint colour and minor detail. For
example the Machine Mart has what appears to be a wing nut on the
middle of the three gib strip adjusters presumably to lock the slide
in place but putting one an another version of the vice wouldn't be
difficult. I'm not even sure its really an improvement - if the gibs
are adjusted and locked they shouldn't need clamping.

Do you know of hand if they are metric (at least on yours) and can you
suggest a source?


Mine were UNF, but I wouldn't assume anything until it was in my
sticky mitts :-) They tended to favour imperial as the USA is their
big export market. That said 6mm fitted the gib threads very well.
Any fastener supplier will have stock - there are only about 4 grub
screws - the rest are hex head or standard bolts.

Also, do they come with clamp bolts for the drill press table?


No. None of them do. The size needed depends more on your table
slots than the vice. For my table I used normal 10mm bolts into home
made T nuts As the table is cast iron the T slot edges in the table
are fairly fragile and you want a nut which is a good fit in the
table slot. Chronos (amongst others) sell both clamping kits and T
Nuts (search for TNUT).

Depending upon your table slots you often find the commercial T Nuts
are too thick in the top section and stick above the table so can
never be tightened until you take a bit off. Whichever T Nuts you
get you will need to be prepared to do a bit of grinding and filing
to get an exact fit.

The studs supplied in the clamping kits are all too long by the way
and impede the vice travel so even if you buy a clamping kit you will
still need to find shorter studs or bolts (I used bolts 30mm long).
If you use studs you have a bit more tolerance to play with but not a
lot as they foul the vice travel. 30mm bolts on my vice and table
just go fully into the T nut threads without fouling the table.

Unless you want the rest of the clamping kit I'd buy just a few T
Nuts for the table and use it with standard bolts or steel studding
cut to length. I also found a standard bolt with a few washers on it
was more secure than the usual clamp bolts under severe vibration.
--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/


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On 2007-03-24 19:36:40 +0000, Peter Parry said:

8 of lots of useful info.



Very helpful, Peter. Thanks for helping with this. I think that
the Chronos one makes good sense for what I need for the moment,
especially if I can get a few other bits and pieces while I'm at it.


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In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:

said:

The clasp nuts are only fixed with nasty little grub
screws going into threads cut in the cast iron.
No matter how much I heave on these screws there
is still a tiny slop in the clasp nuts.

There is a slight slop between the lead screws and
the clasp nuts. There is no means (like a locknut)
to tighten this up.


Not sure what you mean by clasp nuts.. Are these the assemblies
fitted on the outside of the castings through which the lead
screws first pass?


I probably used the wrong word. The large nuts that
run on the lead screws.

I'm more interested in a quick way to align pieces for drilling a
set of holes without having to completely unclamp the work.


If everything is tightened up, especially the leadscrew
shafts, even my relatively sloppy vice will do that.

Occasionally I mill plastic...


Someone around here, (and I shall remain anonymous),
prefers to mill plastic sheet with woodworking routers. :-)

--
Tony Williams.
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On 2007-03-25 09:01:17 +0100, Tony Williams said:

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:

said:

The clasp nuts are only fixed with nasty little grub
screws going into threads cut in the cast iron.
No matter how much I heave on these screws there
is still a tiny slop in the clasp nuts.

There is a slight slop between the lead screws and
the clasp nuts. There is no means (like a locknut)
to tighten this up.


Not sure what you mean by clasp nuts.. Are these the assemblies
fitted on the outside of the castings through which the lead
screws first pass?


I probably used the wrong word. The large nuts that
run on the lead screws.


Right. I don't care about the name, I just wanted to make sure that I
understood which bit it was.


I'm more interested in a quick way to align pieces for drilling a
set of holes without having to completely unclamp the work.


If everything is tightened up, especially the leadscrew
shafts, even my relatively sloppy vice will do that.

Occasionally I mill plastic...


Someone around here, (and I shall remain anonymous),
prefers to mill plastic sheet with woodworking routers. :-)


Mm.. I've done that. The only thing I've found is that it is a bit
fiddly, especially with a router table.


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In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:

Someone around here, (and I shall remain anonymous),
prefers to mill plastic sheet with woodworking routers. :-)


Mm.. I've done that. The only thing I've found is that it is
a bit fiddly, especially with a router table.


Easy with an X-Y vice. A woodworking router is so
sharp that the plastic swarf is coarse curly bits
whose cutting does not heat the workpiece. The
big ambush is forcing the cut, and/or allowing any
hint of swarf to clog the tool..... instant meltdown
of the workpiece. A vacuum cleaner nozzle clamped
just behind the cutter can be very handy.

If cutting say a rectangular slot by eye, to the
marking-out lines, I go round first about 1/16th
back from the lines then a second finishing cut to
the lines. Both times going anticlockckwise around
the rectangle.

--
Tony Williams.
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