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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Cross Vice
No I am not looking for some kind of transgender addictive habit, but
an accessory for a drill press. This is the type of vice that bolts to the table of the drill press and has lead screws with handles and a conventional opening jaw at the top. The lead screws make for fine adjustment in the X and Y axes. I am wondering whether anybody has a good quality one of these. I am looking for a large one - 150mm or so. So far, from Google searching, I have found two products: - Machine Mart - Sealey I imagine these are the usual Chinese products and they may be OK, but I am certainly not looking for something with wobbly backlash. Does anyone have something better or a recommendation for something better? |
#2
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Cross Vice
"Andy Hall" wrote in message ... No I am not looking for some kind of transgender addictive habit, but an accessory for a drill press. This is the type of vice that bolts to the table of the drill press and has lead screws with handles and a conventional opening jaw at the top. The lead screws make for fine adjustment in the X and Y axes. I am wondering whether anybody has a good quality one of these. I am looking for a large one - 150mm or so. So far, from Google searching, I have found two products: - Machine Mart - Sealey I imagine these are the usual Chinese products and they may be OK, but I am certainly not looking for something with wobbly backlash. Does anyone have something better or a recommendation for something better? I've got one o those on me Aldi bench drill. :-) have you tried ebay? There's only one at the moment |
#3
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Cross Vice
"George" wrote in message . .. "Andy Hall" wrote in message ... No I am not looking for some kind of transgender addictive habit, but an accessory for a drill press. This is the type of vice that bolts to the table of the drill press and has lead screws with handles and a conventional opening jaw at the top. The lead screws make for fine adjustment in the X and Y axes. I am wondering whether anybody has a good quality one of these. I am looking for a large one - 150mm or so. So far, from Google searching, I have found two products: - Machine Mart - Sealey I imagine these are the usual Chinese products and they may be OK, but I am certainly not looking for something with wobbly backlash. Does anyone have something better or a recommendation for something better? I've got one o those on me Aldi bench drill. :-) have you tried ebay? There's only one at the moment Tell a lie theres a few type in... Drill press vice in ebays search box. |
#4
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Cross Vice
On 2007-03-23 23:39:49 +0000, "George" said:
"Andy Hall" wrote in message ... No I am not looking for some kind of transgender addictive habit, but an accessory for a drill press. This is the type of vice that bolts to the table of the drill press and has lead screws with handles and a conventional opening jaw at the top. The lead screws make for fine adjustment in the X and Y axes. I am wondering whether anybody has a good quality one of these. I am looking for a large one - 150mm or so. So far, from Google searching, I have found two products: - Machine Mart - Sealey I imagine these are the usual Chinese products and they may be OK, but I am certainly not looking for something with wobbly backlash. Does anyone have something better or a recommendation for something better? I've got one o those on me Aldi bench drill. :-) have you tried ebay? There's only one at the moment mmm... I see that there is one offering the Sealey product for £63.... |
#5
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Cross Vice
Andy Hall wrote:
I am wondering whether anybody has a good quality one of these. I am looking for a large one - 150mm or so. Axminster also have a few: http://www.axminster.co.uk/recno/8/p...ces-377048.htm http://www.axminster.co.uk/recno/12/...able-21825.htm -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#6
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Cross Vice
On 2007-03-24 03:08:33 +0000, John Rumm said:
Andy Hall wrote: I am wondering whether anybody has a good quality one of these. I am looking for a large one - 150mm or so. Axminster also have a few: http://www.axminster.co.uk/recno/8/p...ces-377048.htm http://www.axminster.co.uk/recno/12/...able-21825.htm Thanks John I'm looking for something quite substantial, like their 340217 product, but a bit larger and ideally a better quality. |
#7
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Cross Vice
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 07:54:15 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote: I'm looking for something quite substantial, like their 340217 product, but a bit larger and ideally a better quality. The quality of much of the Chinese machine tools has improved considerably in the last few years and much of it is equal to European equipment but at much lower prices. Where they do fall short (using things like poor quality set screws for example) it is often very easy to improve them. The basic casting and machining is certainly now of very good quality. Warco (http://www.warco.co.uk/shop.asp?catid=60&ProdId=674#674) have some but only up to 5" jaw opening. Chronos have a nice Soba Compound Table (MX1209) but at 80mm it is probably rather small http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/index.html?http%3A//www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/Chronos_Catalogue_Other_Milling_Vices_69.html&Cata logBody They also have a 6" cross vice further down the page which might be nearer the size you are looking for. Something worth bearing in mind if you intend to use these with a drill press is the height of the damn things. I've got a 6" jaw one and the top of the vice jaws are 5" off the table, the vice bed is 4.5" off the table. Unless you have a long column drill press this can be quite restrictive. Obviously these vices are ideal for drilling but despite what a few purveyors say I've never found them adequate for even light milling. If you want to use a drill press for occasional milling (which it isn't very good at) you really need a machine vice like the Chronos 10074. For heavier alternatives your best bet is the second hand market although cross vices are not common as they were never really liked in commercial machine shops. http://www.homeandworkshop.co.uk/ or RA Atkins in Guildford (01483 811146) might have something suitable. They also occasionally come up in industrial auctions. -- Peter Parry. http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/ |
#8
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Cross Vice
On 23 Mar, 23:33, Andy Hall wrote:
No I am not looking for some kind of transgender addictive habit, but an accessory for a drill press. Why is the vice cross? Or is that just one of its vices. NT |
#9
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Cross Vice
For heavier alternatives your best bet is the second hand market although cross vices are not common as they were never really liked in commercial machine shops. Forgot to say you could also try http://www.homeworkshop.org.uk/ -- Peter Parry. http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/ |
#10
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Cross Vice
On 2007-03-24 11:51:56 +0000, Peter Parry said:
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 07:54:15 +0000, Andy Hall wrote: I'm looking for something quite substantial, like their 340217 product, but a bit larger and ideally a better quality. The quality of much of the Chinese machine tools has improved considerably in the last few years and much of it is equal to European equipment but at much lower prices. Where they do fall short (using things like poor quality set screws for example) it is often very easy to improve them. The basic casting and machining is certainly now of very good quality. That was one of my concerns - if there is a lot of backlash, or worse still a tendency to move, it would be a bit useless. I suppose that some replacement of screws could help. Warco (http://www.warco.co.uk/shop.asp?catid=60&ProdId=674#674) have some but only up to 5" jaw opening. Yes I saw this site - this one appears to be the same as the MachineMart one. Chronos have a nice Soba Compound Table (MX1209) but at 80mm it is probably rather small http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/index.html?http%3A//www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/Chronos_Catalogue_Other_Milling_Vices_69.html&Cata logBody I saw this product as well and looking at the photo, it does look as though the build quality is a lot better than the other products. It could be OK - possibly I could make something to clamp into it and then clamp work to that. Possibly they might have a larger one. My guess is that it's Japanese. A Google search for the web site seems unsuccessful though since it appears that soba is also a type of Japanese noodle. They also have a 6" cross vice further down the page which might be nearer the size you are looking for. I saw that too. It appears to be the same as the Sealey one. Looking at various better quality pictures, it's hard to tell whether the MachineMart style is better or worse than the Sealey style. Something worth bearing in mind if you intend to use these with a drill press is the height of the damn things. I've got a 6" jaw one and the top of the vice jaws are 5" off the table, the vice bed is 4.5" off the table. Unless you have a long column drill press this can be quite restrictive. Fortunately I'm OK here. It's floor standing, so no height issue. Obviously these vices are ideal for drilling but despite what a few purveyors say I've never found them adequate for even light milling. Drilling is really the main application. I may occasionally do a little milling, but that is more likely to be in engineering plastic than metal If you want to use a drill press for occasional milling (which it isn't very good at) you really need a machine vice like the Chronos 10074. Nice product. I'm not keen on using the drill press for much other than its original purpose. There are other potential applications such as morticing is wood, for which there are accessories. However, with the forces involved (in that case vertical), I'm not sure that it would do the bearings much good; so I avoided the temptation. Plus the set up time is considerable. I addressed that requirement with a horizontal morticer. For heavier alternatives your best bet is the second hand market although cross vices are not common as they were never really liked in commercial machine shops. http://www.homeandworkshop.co.uk/ or RA Atkins in Guildford (01483 811146) might have something suitable. They also occasionally come up in industrial auctions. Looks as though there are a few other manufacturer names there as well, so I'll look a bit further at these as well. Many thanks |
#11
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Cross Vice
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#12
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Cross Vice
Peter Parry wrote:
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 07:54:15 +0000, Andy Hall wrote: I'm looking for something quite substantial, like their 340217 product, but a bit larger and ideally a better quality. The quality of much of the Chinese machine tools has improved considerably in the last few years and much of it is equal to European equipment but at much lower prices. Where they do fall short (using things like poor quality set screws for example) it is often very easy to improve them. The basic casting and machining is certainly now of very good quality. Warco (http://www.warco.co.uk/shop.asp?catid=60&ProdId=674#674) have some but only up to 5" jaw opening. Chronos have a nice Soba Compound Table (MX1209) but at 80mm it is probably rather small http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/index.html?http%3A//www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/Chronos_Catalogue_Other_Milling_Vices_69.html&Cata logBody They also have a 6" cross vice further down the page which might be nearer the size you are looking for. Something worth bearing in mind if you intend to use these with a drill press is the height of the damn things. I've got a 6" jaw one and the top of the vice jaws are 5" off the table, the vice bed is 4.5" off the table. Unless you have a long column drill press this can be quite restrictive. Obviously these vices are ideal for drilling but despite what a few purveyors say I've never found them adequate for even light milling. If you want to use a drill press for occasional milling (which it isn't very good at) you really need a machine vice like the Chronos 10074. For heavier alternatives your best bet is the second hand market although cross vices are not common as they were never really liked in commercial machine shops. http://www.homeandworkshop.co.uk/ or RA Atkins in Guildford (01483 811146) might have something suitable. They also occasionally come up in industrial auctions. Vacuum clamp maybe? |
#13
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Cross Vice
On 2007-03-24 12:31:34 +0000, Peter Parry said:
For heavier alternatives your best bet is the second hand market although cross vices are not common as they were never really liked in commercial machine shops. Forgot to say you could also try http://www.homeworkshop.org.uk/ Plus a page of additional supplier links. thanks again |
#14
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Cross Vice
On 24 Mar, 12:46, Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-03-24 11:52:00 +0000, said: On 23 Mar, 23:33, Andy Hall wrote: No I am not looking for some kind of transgender addictive habit, but an accessory for a drill press. Why is the vice cross? Or is that just one of its vices. Well wouldn't you be if someone screwed you around all day..... ha, yep NT |
#15
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Cross Vice
On 2007-03-24 12:48:15 +0000, Stuart Noble
said: Vacuum clamp maybe? I have some of these (Airpress Vac Pots) that I use for woodworking. They are very effective for holding work for routing etc. on the bench. For this application, I need the 2 dimensional adjustability without undoing clamps and moving things. However, perhaps in combination... |
#16
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Cross Vice
In article ,
Andy Hall wrote: That was one of my concerns - if there is a lot of backlash, or worse still a tendency to move, it would be a bit useless. I suppose that some replacement of screws could help. I have a cheap X-Y vice that was bundled in with this Warco pillar drill. Faults are...... The clasp nuts are only fixed with nasty little grub screws going into threads cut in the cast iron. No matter how much I heave on these screws there is still a tiny slop in the clasp nuts. There is a slight slop between the lead screws and the clasp nuts. There is no means (like a locknut) to tighten this up. The grub screws that key into grooves in the lead screws and stop end-end movement need to be very tight, so much so that movements are hard work. The jaws of the vice are very slightly off with respect to the X-Y movement. It means that when I mill (say) a slot in an aluminium plate then it is not quite parallel with the edges. That said, even with all those faults, that X-Y vice has done some seriously good work, doing quick rectangular milling jobs, holding-safe material that can snatch (Brass!), etc. I've probably knackered the headstock bearings though. -- Tony Williams. |
#17
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Cross Vice
On 2007-03-24 14:08:33 +0000, Tony Williams said:
In article , Andy Hall wrote: That was one of my concerns - if there is a lot of backlash, or worse still a tendency to move, it would be a bit useless. I suppose that some replacement of screws could help. I have a cheap X-Y vice that was bundled in with this Warco pillar drill. Faults are...... The clasp nuts are only fixed with nasty little grub screws going into threads cut in the cast iron. No matter how much I heave on these screws there is still a tiny slop in the clasp nuts. There is a slight slop between the lead screws and the clasp nuts. There is no means (like a locknut) to tighten this up. Not sure what you mean by clasp nuts.. Are these the assemblies fitted on the outside of the castings through which the lead screws first pass? The grub screws that key into grooves in the lead screws and stop end-end movement need to be very tight, so much so that movements are hard work. The jaws of the vice are very slightly off with respect to the X-Y movement. It means that when I mill (say) a slot in an aluminium plate then it is not quite parallel with the edges. That said, even with all those faults, that X-Y vice has done some seriously good work, doing quick rectangular milling jobs, holding-safe material that can snatch (Brass!), etc. I've probably knackered the headstock bearings though. Mmm... OK. I'm more interested in a quick way to align pieces for drilling a set of holes without having to completely unclamp the work. Occasionally I mill plastic... |
#18
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Cross Vice
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 12:45:41 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote: That was one of my concerns - if there is a lot of backlash, or worse still a tendency to move, it would be a bit useless. I suppose that some replacement of screws could help. The 6" one I have is about 8 years old and similar to the Chronos one in looks. I was looking at a Chronos one a month or so ago and it looked better finished than mine was (which reflects the significant improvement in quality in the last few years). That said the only work I did on mine to make it respectable was to throw away the various plasticine grub screws and replace them with real ones. The basic machining of the cast iron was fine. Don't forget that both ways (x and y) have an adjustable gib strip and three adjusting screws with lock nuts on each strip to enable the dovetail to be adjusted to remove excess play. The gib strips on mine I polished a little bit with a fine file to give a smoother movement. With the adjustable gibs you can control the stiffness of movement easily and take out any slack on the ways. When correctly adjusted the vice is very solid. There will always be a bit of backlash in Acme threads as they have limited clearance at the major diameters of the external and internal threads so that a bearing at the major diameter maintains approximate alignment of the thread axis and prevent wedging on the flanks of the threads. However it's more of an issue with positioning systems where you have to approach the target from either direction. If your concern is more about how stable the vice position is I don't think you need worry. Once you have adjusted the gibs (not something you need to do often) the vice certainly won't move when drilling, there is no creep at all -- Peter Parry. http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/ |
#19
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Cross Vice
On 2007-03-24 17:44:30 +0000, Peter Parry said:
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 12:45:41 +0000, Andy Hall wrote: That was one of my concerns - if there is a lot of backlash, or worse still a tendency to move, it would be a bit useless. I suppose that some replacement of screws could help. The 6" one I have is about 8 years old and similar to the Chronos one in looks. I was looking at a Chronos one a month or so ago and it looked better finished than mine was (which reflects the significant improvement in quality in the last few years). Ah, OK, I guess that they are not far from you... It's hard to tell from the little sketch photo, but do you remember if it looks like the machinemart one? http://tinyurl.com/36wxyq That said the only work I did on mine to make it respectable was to throw away the various plasticine grub screws and replace them with real ones. The basic machining of the cast iron was fine. Do you know of hand if they are metric (at least on yours) and can you suggest a source? Also, do they come with clamp bolts for the drill press table? Until now, I've been using my drill press pretty much in connection with woodworking and the table I have for that doesn't need them. I looked on the Chronos site, but couldn't see anything obvious by way of clamp bolts. Don't forget that both ways (x and y) have an adjustable gib strip and three adjusting screws with lock nuts on each strip to enable the dovetail to be adjusted to remove excess play. The gib strips on mine I polished a little bit with a fine file to give a smoother movement. With the adjustable gibs you can control the stiffness of movement easily and take out any slack on the ways. When correctly adjusted the vice is very solid. There will always be a bit of backlash in Acme threads as they have limited clearance at the major diameters of the external and internal threads so that a bearing at the major diameter maintains approximate alignment of the thread axis and prevent wedging on the flanks of the threads. However it's more of an issue with positioning systems where you have to approach the target from either direction. If your concern is more about how stable the vice position is I don't think you need worry. Once you have adjusted the gibs (not something you need to do often) the vice certainly won't move when drilling, there is no creep at all Yes, in fact for most of the things I can think of, it would be a case of approach from one side and increment. many thanks |
#20
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Cross Vice
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 18:22:33 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote: On 2007-03-24 17:44:30 +0000, Peter Parry said: It's hard to tell from the little sketch photo, but do you remember if it looks like the machinemart one? http://tinyurl.com/36wxyq Identical, I'm not sure whether all the Chinese factories reproduce the same common design or whether one factory supplies everyone. No matter who the vendor is the products are often identical! The only difference appears to be in the paint colour and minor detail. For example the Machine Mart has what appears to be a wing nut on the middle of the three gib strip adjusters presumably to lock the slide in place but putting one an another version of the vice wouldn't be difficult. I'm not even sure its really an improvement - if the gibs are adjusted and locked they shouldn't need clamping. Do you know of hand if they are metric (at least on yours) and can you suggest a source? Mine were UNF, but I wouldn't assume anything until it was in my sticky mitts :-) They tended to favour imperial as the USA is their big export market. That said 6mm fitted the gib threads very well. Any fastener supplier will have stock - there are only about 4 grub screws - the rest are hex head or standard bolts. Also, do they come with clamp bolts for the drill press table? No. None of them do. The size needed depends more on your table slots than the vice. For my table I used normal 10mm bolts into home made T nuts As the table is cast iron the T slot edges in the table are fairly fragile and you want a nut which is a good fit in the table slot. Chronos (amongst others) sell both clamping kits and T Nuts (search for TNUT). Depending upon your table slots you often find the commercial T Nuts are too thick in the top section and stick above the table so can never be tightened until you take a bit off. Whichever T Nuts you get you will need to be prepared to do a bit of grinding and filing to get an exact fit. The studs supplied in the clamping kits are all too long by the way and impede the vice travel so even if you buy a clamping kit you will still need to find shorter studs or bolts (I used bolts 30mm long). If you use studs you have a bit more tolerance to play with but not a lot as they foul the vice travel. 30mm bolts on my vice and table just go fully into the T nut threads without fouling the table. Unless you want the rest of the clamping kit I'd buy just a few T Nuts for the table and use it with standard bolts or steel studding cut to length. I also found a standard bolt with a few washers on it was more secure than the usual clamp bolts under severe vibration. -- Peter Parry. http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/ |
#21
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Cross Vice
On 2007-03-24 19:36:40 +0000, Peter Parry said:
8 of lots of useful info. Very helpful, Peter. Thanks for helping with this. I think that the Chronos one makes good sense for what I need for the moment, especially if I can get a few other bits and pieces while I'm at it. |
#22
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Cross Vice
In article ,
Andy Hall wrote: said: The clasp nuts are only fixed with nasty little grub screws going into threads cut in the cast iron. No matter how much I heave on these screws there is still a tiny slop in the clasp nuts. There is a slight slop between the lead screws and the clasp nuts. There is no means (like a locknut) to tighten this up. Not sure what you mean by clasp nuts.. Are these the assemblies fitted on the outside of the castings through which the lead screws first pass? I probably used the wrong word. The large nuts that run on the lead screws. I'm more interested in a quick way to align pieces for drilling a set of holes without having to completely unclamp the work. If everything is tightened up, especially the leadscrew shafts, even my relatively sloppy vice will do that. Occasionally I mill plastic... Someone around here, (and I shall remain anonymous), prefers to mill plastic sheet with woodworking routers. :-) -- Tony Williams. |
#23
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Cross Vice
On 2007-03-25 09:01:17 +0100, Tony Williams said:
In article , Andy Hall wrote: said: The clasp nuts are only fixed with nasty little grub screws going into threads cut in the cast iron. No matter how much I heave on these screws there is still a tiny slop in the clasp nuts. There is a slight slop between the lead screws and the clasp nuts. There is no means (like a locknut) to tighten this up. Not sure what you mean by clasp nuts.. Are these the assemblies fitted on the outside of the castings through which the lead screws first pass? I probably used the wrong word. The large nuts that run on the lead screws. Right. I don't care about the name, I just wanted to make sure that I understood which bit it was. I'm more interested in a quick way to align pieces for drilling a set of holes without having to completely unclamp the work. If everything is tightened up, especially the leadscrew shafts, even my relatively sloppy vice will do that. Occasionally I mill plastic... Someone around here, (and I shall remain anonymous), prefers to mill plastic sheet with woodworking routers. :-) Mm.. I've done that. The only thing I've found is that it is a bit fiddly, especially with a router table. |
#24
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Cross Vice
In article ,
Andy Hall wrote: Someone around here, (and I shall remain anonymous), prefers to mill plastic sheet with woodworking routers. :-) Mm.. I've done that. The only thing I've found is that it is a bit fiddly, especially with a router table. Easy with an X-Y vice. A woodworking router is so sharp that the plastic swarf is coarse curly bits whose cutting does not heat the workpiece. The big ambush is forcing the cut, and/or allowing any hint of swarf to clog the tool..... instant meltdown of the workpiece. A vacuum cleaner nozzle clamped just behind the cutter can be very handy. If cutting say a rectangular slot by eye, to the marking-out lines, I go round first about 1/16th back from the lines then a second finishing cut to the lines. Both times going anticlockckwise around the rectangle. -- Tony Williams. |
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