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Potterton Suprima 30-80
Boiler intermittently (every few days) locks out on what I assume is overheat. Unfortunately the unit is some distance away at the flat of an elderly (geriatric) relative so the symptoms leading up to the lock-out are unknown. Before calling in a service engineer I would like to be better informed; hopefully to avoid a series of call-outs. Is there anything I should be particularly looking at? System pressure looks OK, by-pass is open, the slide switch on the controller has lost the *detents* and I don't know what geriatric fingers have been doing in between failures. Pressing reset invariably gets the boiler going for a few more days. regards -- Tim Lamb |
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"Tim Lamb" wrote in message ... Potterton Suprima 30-80 Boiler intermittently (every few days) locks out on what I assume is overheat. Unfortunately the unit is some distance away at the flat of an elderly (geriatric) relative so the symptoms leading up to the lock-out are unknown. Before calling in a service engineer I would like to be better informed; hopefully to avoid a series of call-outs. Is there anything I should be particularly looking at? Don't you watch TV http://www.bbc.co.uk/consumer/tv_and...20070220.shtml -- |
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In message , Mark
writes "Tim Lamb" wrote in message ... Potterton Suprima 30-80 Is there anything I should be particularly looking at? Don't you watch TV http://www.bbc.co.uk/consumer/tv_and...s/homes/homes_ 20070220.shtml Obviously not the *right* programmes:-) I saw some of the discussion in here but did not realise the relevance. Ta. Curiously, we have two identical boilers installed at the same time in the same block of flats. Clutching wooden desktop, only one has given trouble! regards -- Tim Lamb |
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In message , Tim Lamb
writes Potterton Suprima 30-80 Boiler intermittently (every few days) locks out on what I assume is overheat. Unfortunately the unit is some distance away at the flat of an elderly (geriatric) relative so the symptoms leading up to the lock-out are unknown. Sounds like the classic PCB lockout problem, but without any useful information, difficult to say any more -- geoff |
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In message , raden
writes In message , Tim Lamb writes Potterton Suprima 30-80 Boiler intermittently (every few days) locks out on what I assume is overheat. Unfortunately the unit is some distance away at the flat of elderly (geriatric) relative so the symptoms leading up to the lock-out are unknown. Sounds like the classic PCB lockout problem, but without any useful information, difficult to say any more Is the fault poor soldering/cracked tracks i.e. repairable or something too obscure to spot. I have copied off the draft letter to Potterton and will try sending it once I have determined the installation date. regards -- Tim Lamb |
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In message , Tim Lamb
writes In message , raden writes In message , Tim Lamb writes Potterton Suprima 30-80 Boiler intermittently (every few days) locks out on what I assume is overheat. Unfortunately the unit is some distance away at the flat of elderly (geriatric) relative so the symptoms leading up to the lock-out are unknown. Sounds like the classic PCB lockout problem, but without any useful information, difficult to say any more Is the fault poor soldering/cracked tracks i.e. repairable or something too obscure to spot. Although you do get cracked solder joints, there are other problems too Oh that it was that simple -- geoff |
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raden wrote:
Although you do get cracked solder joints, there are other problems too Oh that it was that simple If I were an enterprising soul, I would be putting together a crack team of gas boiler experts, electronic and software engineers and setting out building a replacement PCB. It might not need to be reverse engineered from the originals, such would be the expertise of the engineers to design something from the ground up that does something useful with the rest of Potterton's hardware. It would, of course, be submitted to whatever regulatory body exists to certify it's use as part of a safe gas appliance. Then think of the potential market. -- Adrian C |
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In message , Adrian C
writes raden wrote: Although you do get cracked solder joints, there are other problems too Oh that it was that simple If I were an enterprising soul, I would be putting together a crack team of gas boiler experts, electronic and software engineers and setting out building a replacement PCB. It might not need to be reverse engineered from the originals, such would be the expertise of the engineers to design something from the ground up that does something useful with the rest of Potterton's hardware. It would, of course, be submitted to whatever regulatory body exists to certify it's use as part of a safe gas appliance. If you intent to use *flow* soldering to save on production cost, you might consider component thermal mass when mixing mains connectors with delicate integrated chips on the same circuit board. Then think of the potential market. Yes:-) regards -- Tim Lamb |
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In message , raden
writes Sounds like the classic PCB lockout problem, but without any useful information, difficult to say any more Is the fault poor soldering/cracked tracks i.e. repairable or something too obscure to spot. Although you do get cracked solder joints, there are other problems too Oh that it was that simple Umm.. I take it suitable exchange units are available ex-Watford? regards -- Tim Lamb |
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On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 01:34:23 +0000, Adrian C wrote:
If I were an enterprising soul, I would be putting together a crack team of gas boiler experts, electronic and software engineers and setting out building a replacement PCB. It might not need to be reverse engineered from the originals, such would be the expertise of the engineers to design something from the ground up that does something useful with the rest of Potterton's hardware. It would, of course, be submitted to whatever regulatory body exists to certify it's use as part of a safe gas appliance. As I'm neither an enterprising soul nor a competent electronics design techie I can only speculate. I deal with a number of woodburning devices that are PIC controlled and they are off the shelf components with firmware blown onto a rom. I have on two occasions needed to upgrade the firmware, once to a boiler pic and once to an associated feed line. The lower volume manufacturer of the feedline has used a mitsubishi alpha controller and this looks like it could handle input functions from limit switches sensing flue gas, O2, flame sensing and modulate fan speeds etc. All easily reconfigured from the free gui programming software. I had considerer trying to run a dishwasher with a sticky timer off one but the cost benefit wasn't there. AJH |
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On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 10:06:51 +0000, Tim Lamb wrote:
Potterton Suprima 30-80 Boiler intermittently (every few days) locks out on what I assume is overheat. Unfortunately the unit is some distance away at the flat of an elderly (geriatric) relative so the symptoms leading up to the lock-out are unknown. Before calling in a service engineer I would like to be better informed; hopefully to avoid a series of call-outs. Is there anything I should be particularly looking at? System pressure looks OK, by-pass is open, the slide switch on the controller has lost the *detents* and I don't know what geriatric fingers have been doing in between failures. Pressing reset invariably gets the boiler going for a few more days. regards This is about the only boiler where you _start_ by assuming it's the PCB and then move on to the other possibilities. If there was a real cause like pump failure it would happen every day. -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards |
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In message , Adrian C
writes raden wrote: Although you do get cracked solder joints, there are other problems too Oh that it was that simple If I were an enterprising soul, I would be putting together a crack team of gas boiler experts, electronic and software engineers and setting out building a replacement PCB. I thought about it, I was even in touch with the person who wrote the original firmware. That's not the problem, the problem is Potterton - the case is currently in court ATM against someone who has done just that It might not need to be reverse engineered from the originals, such would be the expertise of the engineers to design something from the ground up that does something useful with the rest of Potterton's hardware. It would, of course, be submitted to whatever regulatory body exists to certify it's use as part of a safe gas appliance. It has to be approved by Potterton if it is to be put in one of their appliances Then think of the potential market. It could seriously diminish post Watchdog, we'll see -- geoff |
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In message , Tim Lamb
writes In message , raden writes Sounds like the classic PCB lockout problem, but without any useful information, difficult to say any more Is the fault poor soldering/cracked tracks i.e. repairable or something too obscure to spot. Although you do get cracked solder joints, there are other problems too Oh that it was that simple Umm.. I take it suitable exchange units are available ex-Watford? Normally, yes, but demand outstrips repair rate from time to time -- geoff |
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In article ,
raden writes: In message , Adrian C writes If I were an enterprising soul, I would be putting together a crack team of gas boiler experts, electronic and software engineers and setting out building a replacement PCB. I thought about it, I was even in touch with the person who wrote the original firmware. That's not the problem, the problem is Potterton - the case is currently in court ATM against someone who has done just that Hum, on what grounds? I could imagine HSE having an issue with it if it's not GC approved, but I can't see Potterton would have a leg to stand on. It might not need to be reverse engineered from the originals, such would be the expertise of the engineers to design something from the ground up that does something useful with the rest of Potterton's hardware. It would, of course, be submitted to whatever regulatory body exists to certify it's use as part of a safe gas appliance. It has to be approved by Potterton if it is to be put in one of their appliances or the board manufacturer gets it GC approved themself. That might be hard without Potterton's cooperation though. -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
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In message , Andrew Gabriel
writes It has to be approved by Potterton if it is to be put in one of their appliances or the board manufacturer gets it GC approved themself. That might be hard without Potterton's cooperation though. Well yes Especially when there's a microcontroller with a program in so there are secondary functions (such as kicking the pump every day (as an anti seizing measure), rate tables etc) It's not difficult for Potterton to argue that the pcb is not compliant with their boiler, even if it performs the primary functions -- geoff |
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raden wrote:
It's not difficult for Potterton to argue that the pcb is not compliant with their boiler, even if it performs the primary functions Although each time they make that argument they will presumably have to give away another secondary function. ;-) -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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Tim Lamb wrote in message ... In message , Mark writes "Tim Lamb" wrote in message ... Potterton Suprima 30-80 Is there anything I should be particularly looking at? Don't you watch TV http://www.bbc.co.uk/consumer/tv_and...s/homes/homes_ 20070220.shtml Obviously not the *right* programmes:-) I saw some of the discussion in here but did not realise the relevance. Ta. FWIW If you google Suprima PCB a number of people have said that re-soldering all the suspect dry joints cured the problem. You should also be aware that there have been two revisions to the pcb in an attempt to fix this problem The latest board (mid 2006) is very different to the original and come with a completely new wiring harness, *IF* you can get potterton to replace your pcb with the latest one at a reasonable price this may be better then getting the old original repaired/exchanged. Curiously, we have two identical boilers installed at the same time in the same block of flats. Clutching wooden desktop, only one has given trouble! missing "So far" in txt. - |
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In message , Mark
writes FWIW If you google Suprima PCB a number of people have said that re-soldering all the suspect dry joints cured the problem. I cured a soldering fault on a Profile after some kind advice from Geoff. You should also be aware that there have been two revisions to the pcb in an attempt to fix this problem The latest board (mid 2006) is very different to the original and come with a completely new wiring harness, *IF* you can get potterton to replace your pcb with the latest one at a reasonable price this may be better then getting the old original repaired/exchanged. The boiler was installed roughly 5 years ago so I guess they won't rush an offer:-( I'll have a look inside when the weather warms up a bit. Curiously, we have two identical boilers installed at the same time in the same block of flats. Clutching wooden desktop, only one has given trouble! missing "So far" in txt. Yes. Perhaps Potterton suffer from *Friday* production issues. regards -- Tim Lamb |
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In message , Mark
writes FWIW If you google Suprima PCB a number of people have said that re-soldering all the suspect dry joints cured the problem. Poor soldering's a major problem, however, doing it properly is delicate and quite a lot of people make a mess of it. You should also be aware that there have been two revisions to the pcb in an attempt to fix this problem The latest board (mid 2006) is very different to the original and come with a completely new wiring harness, *IF* you can get potterton to replace your pcb with the latest one at a reasonable price this may be better then getting the old original repaired/exchanged. On what do you base this ? The "IF" doesn't exist - they have a fixed price £185 + VAT (I think, I'm not sure) The new (Honeywell) pcb has plenty of faults of it's own, and once you have opted for this, there is no going back One of my recon pcbs is £50 + and still has a 12 month warranty, and backup -- geoff |
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In message , John
Rumm writes raden wrote: It's not difficult for Potterton to argue that the pcb is not compliant with their boiler, even if it performs the primary functions Although each time they make that argument they will presumably have to give away another secondary function. ;-) Presumably, eventually It could be that Potterton will now be backed into a corner where they will have to retrofit boilers after the watchdog progs ... which will mean that it's possibly not such an attractive proposition as it might have previously looked. They have survived on a "divide and conquer" basis. Watchdog might have finally broken this down -- geoff |
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raden wrote:
It could be that Potterton will now be backed into a corner where they will have to retrofit boilers after the watchdog progs ... which will mean that it's possibly not such an attractive proposition as it might have previously looked. They have survived on a "divide and conquer" basis. Watchdog might have finally broken this down Unless someone could offer them a tried and tested re-engineered solution that works. Would save them some of the R&D. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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In message , John
Rumm writes raden wrote: It could be that Potterton will now be backed into a corner where they will have to retrofit boilers after the watchdog progs ... which will mean that it's possibly not such an attractive proposition as it might have previously looked. They have survived on a "divide and conquer" basis. Watchdog might have finally broken this down Unless someone could offer them a tried and tested re-engineered solution that works. Would save them some of the R&D. Ah, but they already now have the Mk III PCB which is a completely different pcb with half decent technology and makes Potterton a tidy profit .... still doesn't work that well though -- geoff |
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raden wrote in message ... In message , Mark writes FWIW If you google Suprima PCB a number of people have said that re-soldering all the suspect dry joints cured the problem. Poor soldering's a major problem, however, doing it properly is delicate and quite a lot of people make a mess of it. Yes quite possibly, but not an unsurprising statement from someone who makes 50% of their net income from Suprima repairs. :) You should also be aware that there have been two revisions to the pcb in an attempt to fix this problem The latest board (mid 2006) is very different to the original and come with a completely new wiring harness, *IF* you can get potterton to replace your pcb with the latest one at a reasonable price this may be better then getting the old original repaired/exchanged. On what do you base this ? The "IF" doesn't exist - they have a fixed price £185 + VAT (I think, I'm not sure) your quote "It could be that Potterton will now be backed into a corner where they will have to retrofit boilers after the watchdog progs ..." Also this really boils down to whether the original lockout fault is down to crap manufacturing or design I cant (but you may) see much point in continually repairing a crap design. - |
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On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 23:14:42 +0000, raden wrote:
In message , John Rumm writes raden wrote: It could be that Potterton will now be backed into a corner where they will have to retrofit boilers after the watchdog progs ... which will mean that it's possibly not such an attractive proposition as it might have previously looked. They have survived on a "divide and conquer" basis. Watchdog might have finally broken this down Unless someone could offer them a tried and tested re-engineered solution that works. Would save them some of the R&D. Ah, but they already now have the Mk III PCB which is a completely different pcb with half decent technology and makes Potterton a tidy profit ... still doesn't work that well though The actually functionality of the old boards when they work (which for a minority of people seems quite a while) is adequate (the boiler makes primary HW and does not catch fire). The problem must therefore be that the components are under specified or the manufacturing is lacking. -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards |
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In message , Mark
writes raden wrote in message ... In message , Mark writes FWIW If you google Suprima PCB a number of people have said that re-soldering all the suspect dry joints cured the problem. Poor soldering's a major problem, however, doing it properly is delicate and quite a lot of people make a mess of it. Yes quite possibly, but not an unsurprising statement from someone who makes 50% of their net income from Suprima repairs. :) You should also be aware that there have been two revisions to the pcb in an attempt to fix this problem The latest board (mid 2006) is very different to the original and come with a completely new wiring harness, *IF* you can get potterton to replace your pcb with the latest one at a reasonable price this may be better then getting the old original repaired/exchanged. On what do you base this ? The "IF" doesn't exist - they have a fixed price £185 + VAT (I think, I'm not sure) your quote "It could be that Potterton will now be backed into a corner where they will have to retrofit boilers after the watchdog progs ..." And it looks like that might be happening - a bit different from the striking a deal though it will be interesting to see just how far they do actually go. -- geoff |
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In message , AJH
writes On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 21:01:44 GMT, raden wrote: "It could be that Potterton will now be backed into a corner where they will have to retrofit boilers after the watchdog progs ..." And it looks like that might be happening - a bit different from the striking a deal though it will be interesting to see just how far they do actually go. As I suffered the expense of a new board, before I realised you offered the repair service, just over a year after my suprima was fitted I was interested to find out what watchdog said this week but missed it. Is it being taken further? I see mine was fitted some when before 2004. Yes - they were a bit cryptic about it, but "watch this space", I think is the message -- geoff |
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raden wrote in message On what do you base this ? The "IF" doesn't exist - they have a fixed price £185 + VAT (I think, I'm not sure) your quote "It could be that Potterton will now be backed into a corner where they will have to retrofit boilers after the watchdog progs ..." And it looks like that might be happening - Watchdog tonight ? I didn't see it. a bit different from the striking a deal though it will be interesting to see just how far they do actually go. Well that's the "IF" init... - |
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