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  #1   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
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Default Terminating SWA at insulated consumer unit

I don't believe that this one has come up in quite this form before so
should be worth a thread.

I'm completing a summer house in the garden and adding the electricity
supply.

This is being run from the main CU via SWA and enters the building
inside next to the outer wall. There is an inner studded and clad
wall, which over most of the building is insulated, but in the area of
the electrical services will be kept mainly clear. Thus there is a
compartment formed by a partly fixed and partly removable panel with a
65mm gap to the outside wall.

My original plan was to bring the SWA up inside the cavity and through
to the front just below a CU fitted to the front panel, terminating
in a 20mm gland fitted to the CU.

However, the CU is an insulated MK type which has T&E shaped knockouts
around the edges and some rectangular knockouts on the back. There
are no round knockouts for glands and not really a suitable place to
drill for one.

I thought of simply bringing the SWA into the back of the CU, running
the red and black core cables to the incomer breaker. However, this
does not seem that mechanically satisfactory. I can clip the cable
as far as a point close to the entry through the back.

An alternative idea is to use a metal box with 20mm knockouts at both
ends. This would be fitted in the cavity (screwed down) and use a
gland to terminate the SWA cable with the conductors going into a 30A
terminal block. 6mm^2 T&E would continue from there into the CU.

Has anyone had to deal with a similar situation, and come up with a
neat solution?
..andy

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  #2   Report Post  
Andy Wade
 
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Default Terminating SWA at insulated consumer unit

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

I thought of simply bringing the SWA into the back of the CU,
running the red and black core cables to the incomer breaker.
However, this does not seem that mechanically satisfactory. I can
clip the cable as far as a point close to the entry through the
back.

An alternative idea is to use a metal box with 20mm knockouts at
both ends. This would be fitted in the cavity (screwed down) and
use a gland to terminate the SWA cable with the conductors going
into a 30A terminal block. 6mm^2 T&E would continue from there
into the CU.

Has anyone had to deal with a similar situation, and come up with a
neat solution?


Could you mount an adaptable box close up to the CU housing (directly behind
it, say) and couple it mechanically with a long pattern conduit bush (would
probably need to be 25mm) and a few lockrings? Then take the SWA into the
adaptable box with a gland in the usual way, and feed the L&N thro' the bush
and into the CU itself.

It's not clear whether you're using the armour to provide an earth or
whether you need to isolate it at this end because the summer house will be
a TT system. If the latter, a plastic adaptable box may be preferable to
metal (since the armour should be considered as potentially live within the
separately earthed zone, IYSWIM).

--
Andy


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BigWallop
 
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Default Terminating SWA at insulated consumer unit


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:12:22 +0100, "Andy Wade"
wrote:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .

I thought of simply bringing the SWA into the back of the CU,
running the red and black core cables to the incomer breaker.
However, this does not seem that mechanically satisfactory. I can
clip the cable as far as a point close to the entry through the
back.

An alternative idea is to use a metal box with 20mm knockouts at
both ends. This would be fitted in the cavity (screwed down) and
use a gland to terminate the SWA cable with the conductors going
into a 30A terminal block. 6mm^2 T&E would continue from there
into the CU.

Has anyone had to deal with a similar situation, and come up with a
neat solution?


Could you mount an adaptable box close up to the CU housing (directly

behind
it, say) and couple it mechanically with a long pattern conduit bush

(would
probably need to be 25mm) and a few lockrings? Then take the SWA into

the
adaptable box with a gland in the usual way, and feed the L&N thro' the

bush
and into the CU itself.


Hmmm. Yes that does seem like a good solution and certainly solid.


It's not clear whether you're using the armour to provide an earth or
whether you need to isolate it at this end because the summer house will

be
a TT system. If the latter, a plastic adaptable box may be preferable to
metal (since the armour should be considered as potentially live within

the
separately earthed zone, IYSWIM).



Yes, I see what you are saying. I hadn't really decided whether to
separately zone it. Since it is close to the house, I was thinking
more in terms of exporting the earth through the armour in this
particular case. In this case I'd add in an earth wire from the gland
tag to the earth bus bar of the CU.

Do you have a suggested way of terminating onto the tag? On a metal
CU it seems to be common practice to bolt through the small hole of
the tag to the CU metalwork and then from a terminal on the case to
the earth busbar. A nut and bolt for the wire directly onto the tag
does not seem very good mechanically, so perhaps a soldered joint?

.andy



You should have been given a brass earth tag when you bought the glands for
the SWA. Yes ? Then you will fit the brass tag (that's the thing with a
big hole in one end and small hole at the other) over the threaded end of
the brass gland before you stick it through the hole you've drilled for the
fitting, and then tighten it in with the locking nut of the gland. Next
you'll need the two nuts, the four washers and the one bolt you bought when
you got the rest of the fittings. You did get them, didn't you ?

Anyway. You can now drill a hole through the box and through the small hole
of the brass earth tag. Yes, that's right, so you can bolt the small hole
end of the earth tag to the side of consumer unit too. You only use two
washers at this bit, one on the outside and one on the inside. Then you put
one of the nuts on and tighten it all up so you make a sandwich of the wall
of the consumer unit. Next. Take another washer and put it on top of the
nut on the inside of the box. You then take the 6 mm green/yellow insulated
cable you got, you did get that as well, didn't you ?

Anyway. You crimp on the loop to one end of 6 mm cable and then slip it
over the bolt. What do you mean "I didn't get any crimp on loop" well this
is were you're you gonna' need one to do the job right. OK. You've now got
the crimp on loop on the end of the 6 mm green/yellow cable. Right. You
put the last washer on the top of that, and then the last nut on the top of
that.. Don't tighten it up to far just now though, as you've got the other
end of the cable to terminate.

Trim down the cable to the length you need and slip off some insulation,
enough to let you connect into the earth bar of the consumer unit. Yes, the
brass bar thing screwed to the side with all the holes and bolt in it. No
!!! Not the one for the neutrals, the other one. Now, you've got that end
secure, you can go back and tighten up the nut and make sure that the cable
isn't fouling anything and that the lid will go back on without mishaps.

Right !!! You're ready to tackle the red and black conductors to the main
switch now ? Good !!!

Now !!! What about the other end of the SWA. :-))


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BigWallop
 
Posts: n/a
Default Terminating SWA at insulated consumer unit


"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:12:22 +0100, "Andy Wade"
wrote:

snipped
A nut and bolt for the wire directly onto the tag
does not seem very good mechanically, so perhaps a soldered joint?

.andy



You should have been given a brass earth tag when you bought the glands

for
the SWA. Yes ? Then you will fit the brass tag (that's the thing with a
big hole in one end and small hole at the other) over the threaded end of
the brass gland before you stick it through the hole you've drilled for

the
fitting, and then tighten it in with the locking nut of the gland. Next
you'll need the two nuts, the four washers and the one bolt you bought

when
you got the rest of the fittings. You did get them, didn't you ?

Anyway. You can now drill a hole through the box and through the small

hole
of the brass earth tag. Yes, that's right, so you can bolt the small hole
end of the earth tag to the side of consumer unit too. You only use two
washers at this bit, one on the outside and one on the inside. Then you

put
one of the nuts on and tighten it all up so you make a sandwich of the

wall
of the consumer unit. Next. Take another washer and put it on top of the
nut on the inside of the box. You then take the 6 mm green/yellow

insulated
cable you got, you did get that as well, didn't you ?

Anyway. You crimp on the loop to one end of 6 mm cable and then slip it
over the bolt. What do you mean "I didn't get any crimp on loop" well

this
is were you're you gonna' need one to do the job right. OK. You've now

got
the crimp on loop on the end of the 6 mm green/yellow cable. Right. You
put the last washer on the top of that, and then the last nut on the top

of
that.. Don't tighten it up to far just now though, as you've got the

other
end of the cable to terminate.

Trim down the cable to the length you need and slip off some insulation,
enough to let you connect into the earth bar of the consumer unit. Yes,

the
brass bar thing screwed to the side with all the holes and bolt in it. No
!!! Not the one for the neutrals, the other one. Now, you've got that

end
secure, you can go back and tighten up the nut and make sure that the

cable
isn't fouling anything and that the lid will go back on without mishaps.

Right !!! You're ready to tackle the red and black conductors to the main
switch now ? Good !!!

Now !!! What about the other end of the SWA. :-))



What do you mean " You didn't get any shrouds to fit over the glands" ?


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  #5   Report Post  
Andy Wade
 
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Default Terminating SWA at insulated consumer unit

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

Do you have a suggested way of terminating onto the tag?


I'd use a brass screw and a multiplicity of nuts (as a patent agent would
put it) through the small hole in the tag in conjunction with a crimped ring
terminal lug on the end of the earthing wire.

With care it's possible to bend the end of the tag over thro' 90° so that
the connection is entirely inside the enclosure. Do this if you're using a
plastic box because you don't really want a joint relying on pressure
applied through plastic parts which might creep.

--
Andy




  #6   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
Posts: n/a
Default Terminating SWA at insulated consumer unit

On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 04:31:28 GMT, "BigWallop"
wrote:


"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:12:22 +0100, "Andy Wade"
wrote:

snipped
A nut and bolt for the wire directly onto the tag
does not seem very good mechanically, so perhaps a soldered joint?

.andy



You should have been given a brass earth tag when you bought the glands

for
the SWA. Yes ? Then you will fit the brass tag (that's the thing with a
big hole in one end and small hole at the other) over the threaded end of
the brass gland before you stick it through the hole you've drilled for

the
fitting, and then tighten it in with the locking nut of the gland. Next
you'll need the two nuts, the four washers and the one bolt you bought

when
you got the rest of the fittings. You did get them, didn't you ?

Anyway. You can now drill a hole through the box and through the small

hole
of the brass earth tag. Yes, that's right, so you can bolt the small hole
end of the earth tag to the side of consumer unit too. You only use two
washers at this bit, one on the outside and one on the inside. Then you

put
one of the nuts on and tighten it all up so you make a sandwich of the

wall
of the consumer unit. Next. Take another washer and put it on top of the
nut on the inside of the box. You then take the 6 mm green/yellow

insulated
cable you got, you did get that as well, didn't you ?

Anyway. You crimp on the loop to one end of 6 mm cable and then slip it
over the bolt. What do you mean "I didn't get any crimp on loop" well

this
is were you're you gonna' need one to do the job right. OK. You've now

got
the crimp on loop on the end of the 6 mm green/yellow cable. Right. You
put the last washer on the top of that, and then the last nut on the top

of
that.. Don't tighten it up to far just now though, as you've got the

other
end of the cable to terminate.

Trim down the cable to the length you need and slip off some insulation,
enough to let you connect into the earth bar of the consumer unit. Yes,

the
brass bar thing screwed to the side with all the holes and bolt in it. No
!!! Not the one for the neutrals, the other one. Now, you've got that

end
secure, you can go back and tighten up the nut and make sure that the

cable
isn't fouling anything and that the lid will go back on without mishaps.

Right !!! You're ready to tackle the red and black conductors to the main
switch now ? Good !!!

Now !!! What about the other end of the SWA. :-))



What do you mean " You didn't get any shrouds to fit over the glands" ?


I have all of the above, but didn't think of using my crimp on
terminals. Yes I do have shrouds with the glands.
Thanks for the suggestion.

..andy

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Rick Hughes
 
Posts: n/a
Default Terminating SWA at insulated consumer unit


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
I don't believe that this one has come up in quite this form before so
should be worth a thread.

I'm completing a summer house in the garden and adding the electricity
supply.

This is being run from the main CU via SWA and enters the building
inside next to the outer wall. There is an inner studded and clad
wall, which over most of the building is insulated, but in the area of
the electrical services will be kept mainly clear. Thus there is a
compartment formed by a partly fixed and partly removable panel with a
65mm gap to the outside wall.

My original plan was to bring the SWA up inside the cavity and through
to the front just below a CU fitted to the front panel, terminating
in a 20mm gland fitted to the CU.

However, the CU is an insulated MK type which has T&E shaped knockouts
around the edges and some rectangular knockouts on the back. There
are no round knockouts for glands and not really a suitable place to
drill for one.

I thought of simply bringing the SWA into the back of the CU, running
the red and black core cables to the incomer breaker. However, this
does not seem that mechanically satisfactory. I can clip the cable
as far as a point close to the entry through the back.

An alternative idea is to use a metal box with 20mm knockouts at both
ends. This would be fitted in the cavity (screwed down) and use a
gland to terminate the SWA cable with the conductors going into a 30A
terminal block. 6mm^2 T&E would continue from there into the CU.

Has anyone had to deal with a similar situation, and come up with a
neat solution?



Andy - I did the latter fixed a small galv box alongside the CU, terminated
the SWA as normal on the galv box - and run the cores direct through the
box (with suitable grommet) into the CU.

Seemed simplest to me.

Rick


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Andy Hall
 
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Default Terminating SWA at insulated consumer unit

On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 18:54:59 +0000 (UTC), "Rick Hughes"
wrote:




Andy - I did the latter fixed a small galv box alongside the CU, terminated
the SWA as normal on the galv box - and run the cores direct through the
box (with suitable grommet) into the CU.

Seemed simplest to me.

Rick

Thanks Rick.

This, or perhaps a variant with a conduit coupler or something similar
does look to be the way to go. I have the space behind the CU and
can make that panel removable for access to the terminals in order to
comply in that area.

I couldn't think of a regulatory reason why the SWA cable couldn't be
brought into the CU, the steel wires sleeved and run to the earth bus
bar. However, it seemed to be a rather shoddy way to implement.



..andy

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  #9   Report Post  
Ed Sirett
 
Posts: n/a
Default Terminating SWA at insulated consumer unit

Rick Hughes wrote:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
I don't believe that this one has come up in quite this form before so
should be worth a thread.

I'm completing a summer house in the garden and adding the electricity
supply.

This is being run from the main CU via SWA and enters the building
inside next to the outer wall. There is an inner studded and clad
wall, which over most of the building is insulated, but in the area of
the electrical services will be kept mainly clear. Thus there is a
compartment formed by a partly fixed and partly removable panel with a
65mm gap to the outside wall.

My original plan was to bring the SWA up inside the cavity and through
to the front just below a CU fitted to the front panel, terminating
in a 20mm gland fitted to the CU.

However, the CU is an insulated MK type which has T&E shaped knockouts
around the edges and some rectangular knockouts on the back. There
are no round knockouts for glands and not really a suitable place to
drill for one.

I thought of simply bringing the SWA into the back of the CU, running
the red and black core cables to the incomer breaker. However, this
does not seem that mechanically satisfactory. I can clip the cable
as far as a point close to the entry through the back.

An alternative idea is to use a metal box with 20mm knockouts at both
ends. This would be fitted in the cavity (screwed down) and use a
gland to terminate the SWA cable with the conductors going into a 30A
terminal block. 6mm^2 T&E would continue from there into the CU.

Has anyone had to deal with a similar situation, and come up with a
neat solution?


Andy - I did the latter fixed a small galv box alongside the CU, terminated
the SWA as normal on the galv box - and run the cores direct through the
box (with suitable grommet) into the CU.



Apologies for the p[revious blank post.

I had much the same sort of problems when wired my store room.

I used plastic boxes both end and a short length of T&E.
The armouring was earthed using the tag in the house end box.
I used 3 core 2.5mm^2 SWA so the third core was used to export the
earth.
[This practice is probably wrong since I used the yellow core sleeved
with green&yellow for the earth. ]


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
  #10   Report Post  
BigWallop
 
Posts: n/a
Default Terminating SWA at insulated consumer unit


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 04:31:28 GMT, "BigWallop"
wrote:


"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

snipped

What do you mean " You didn't get any shrouds to fit over the glands" ?


I have all of the above, but didn't think of using my crimp on
terminals. Yes I do have shrouds with the glands.
Thanks for the suggestion.

.andy



The wording I used Andy, is roughly a conversation I had with a young 4th
yearer on a site quite recently. He was left to make all the termination
for the first time on his own. I just couldn't resist going through it
again when it was still fresh enough in my mind.

After four years on the job and he couldn't it right, SHEESH !!! I don't
think he'll go far.


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Andy Hall
 
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Default Terminating SWA at insulated consumer unit

On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 21:22:27 GMT, "BigWallop"
wrote:





The wording I used Andy, is roughly a conversation I had with a young 4th
yearer on a site quite recently. He was left to make all the termination
for the first time on his own. I just couldn't resist going through it
again when it was still fresh enough in my mind.

After four years on the job and he couldn't it right, SHEESH !!! I don't
think he'll go far.


Oh dear.

I could think of various alternatives that I felt would be
satisfactory. I was really looking for additional possibilities.

As we've seen, there are several more options.




..andy

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  #12   Report Post  
BigWallop
 
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Default Terminating SWA at insulated consumer unit


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 21:22:27 GMT, "BigWallop"
wrote:





The wording I used Andy, is roughly a conversation I had with a young 4th
yearer on a site quite recently. He was left to make all the termination
for the first time on his own. I just couldn't resist going through it
again when it was still fresh enough in my mind.

After four years on the job and he couldn't it right, SHEESH !!! I don't
think he'll go far.


Oh dear.

I could think of various alternatives that I felt would be
satisfactory. I was really looking for additional possibilities.

As we've seen, there are several more options.


.andy



Yes there are other options, but which ones are the safest ? After many
years of trials on site, I've always found the correct way to be the safest
way every time. :-)) Aesthetics don't always come into play when safety is
involved.


  #13   Report Post  
BigWallop
 
Posts: n/a
Default Terminating SWA at insulated consumer unit


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 22:45:38 GMT, "BigWallop"
wrote:




Yes there are other options, but which ones are the safest ? After many
years of trials on site, I've always found the correct way to be the

safest
way every time. :-)) Aesthetics don't always come into play when safety

is
involved.


Absolutely, but I don't think that in this case there is one "right
way" to the exclusion of all others or that one is inherently safer
than the rest. It would also be fairly difficult to say which out
of several methods is more mechanically sound.

The main reason for the question was to get a range of views because
the specifics are not covered in the Wiring Regulations except in the
broad sense of good workmanship (a matter of opinion), and a few
specifics such as accessibility to terminals, earthing arrangements
etc.

If there were a single "correct solution" it would be publicised by
the manufacturers and industry authors.

.andy



Just an extract from the bible of electrical engineers:

Toothed and serrated lock washers of phosphor bronze must be used where any
cable termination is used to carry fault signalling. The basic principle of
these washers is to use the spring reaction of their hardened teeth to bite
into both the work piece and the locking nut and gland body, so effectively
ensuring the tightening torque is maintained even under pull strain or
vibration conditions and to improved electrical contact (e.g earthing
terminals).

And.

Where PVC/SWA/PVC cables are used as main or sub-main cables, all
termination's shall comprise of compression glands of correct size for each
cable and fitted with earth bonding washers, star washers and separate
copper bonding directly to the earth terminal of the equipment. The whole
gland assembly shall be fitted with a PVC shroud after the cable is fixed
and earth bonded. If calculations show that the armouring of the cable is
insufficient to be used as the sole circuit protective conductor, then a
separate additional C.P.C. shall be installed. This may be in the form of an
additional core of the cable itself, or alternatively a separate conductor
secured to, and in parallel with, the cable and connected directly to the
earth terminal of the equipment.

So there is a correct way to do it Andy.


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Andy Hall
 
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Default Terminating SWA at insulated consumer unit

On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 01:34:23 GMT, "BigWallop"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 22:45:38 GMT, "BigWallop"
wrote:




Yes there are other options, but which ones are the safest ? After many
years of trials on site, I've always found the correct way to be the

safest
way every time. :-)) Aesthetics don't always come into play when safety

is
involved.


Absolutely, but I don't think that in this case there is one "right
way" to the exclusion of all others or that one is inherently safer
than the rest. It would also be fairly difficult to say which out
of several methods is more mechanically sound.

The main reason for the question was to get a range of views because
the specifics are not covered in the Wiring Regulations except in the
broad sense of good workmanship (a matter of opinion), and a few
specifics such as accessibility to terminals, earthing arrangements
etc.

If there were a single "correct solution" it would be publicised by
the manufacturers and industry authors.

.andy



Just an extract from the bible of electrical engineers:


Which particular one?

Toothed and serrated lock washers of phosphor bronze must be used where any
cable termination is used to carry fault signalling. The basic principle of
these washers is to use the spring reaction of their hardened teeth to bite
into both the work piece and the locking nut and gland body, so effectively
ensuring the tightening torque is maintained even under pull strain or
vibration conditions and to improved electrical contact (e.g earthing
terminals).

And.

Where PVC/SWA/PVC cables are used as main or sub-main cables, all
termination's shall comprise of compression glands of correct size for each
cable and fitted with earth bonding washers, star washers and separate
copper bonding directly to the earth terminal of the equipment. The whole
gland assembly shall be fitted with a PVC shroud after the cable is fixed
and earth bonded. If calculations show that the armouring of the cable is
insufficient to be used as the sole circuit protective conductor, then a
separate additional C.P.C. shall be installed. This may be in the form of an
additional core of the cable itself, or alternatively a separate conductor
secured to, and in parallel with, the cable and connected directly to the
earth terminal of the equipment.

So there is a correct way to do it Andy.


I was asking about suggested solutions for terminating the SWA and
transitioning to the (plastic) CU which did not have an appropriate
way to install a cable gland. I did not consider that taking the
cable into the CU and running the armour wires or the third conductor
used as a CPC would be appropriate, which is why I had rejected it.

The issue was to look at a suitable transition enclosure and methods
for terminating cables going into and out of it. I've been doing
electrical and electronics work for long enough to know that a star
washer should be fitted to bolts and fittings through panels - that
wasn't really the point although you didn't mention it in your initial
post.

All of the suggested methods included appropriate termination for the
CPC going to the earth bus bar, including my own, so you didn't have
exclusivity on "correctness".

The point was the suitable enclosure for the task and suggested
methods for going from there to the CU terminals. Your post about
the conversation that you had had with your apprentice, or whatever he
was, was amusing but didn't really cover the issue in question.

Thanks for your contribution, though.







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..andy

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ARWadsworth
 
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Default Terminating SWA at insulated consumer unit



An alternative idea is to use a metal box with 20mm knockouts at both
ends. This would be fitted in the cavity (screwed down) and use a
gland to terminate the SWA cable with the conductors going into a 30A
terminal block. 6mm^2 T&E would continue from there into the CU.

Has anyone had to deal with a similar situation, and come up with a
neat solution?



I did something similar recently on a garage and I used an
outdoors/waterproof MK one gang socket (I had one spare) to terminate the
SWA. As the supply to the garage was fed from the house CU by a 40 amp MCB I
changed the socket for a 45 amp DP switch and used the round knockouts on
the MK backbox to terminate the incoming SWA. The switch is now an isolator
for the garage CU.

Adam


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