Has anyone installed a system for flushing the wc using harvested water?

We'd like to be able to switch between mains and pumped collected water.
This would enable harvested water to be used for the garden in summer and
not wasted in winter - when there is more rain to collect but it isn't used.

Spouse has made plans to do it but I wondered if anyone here had done it and
could give the benefits of experience.

Theories and opinions are inappropriate although *authoritative* legal
advice will be welcome. We're confident that we know what's necessary but
there might be something which we hadn't thought of and a qualified plumber
could advise.

TIA

Mary

In article ,
Mary Fisher wrote:
Has anyone installed a system for flushing the wc using harvested water?

We'd like to be able to switch between mains and pumped collected water.
This would enable harvested water to be used for the garden in summer
and not wasted in winter - when there is more rain to collect but it
isn't used.

Spouse has made plans to do it but I wondered if anyone here had done it
and could give the benefits of experience.

Theories and opinions are inappropriate although *authoritative* legal
advice will be welcome. We're confident that we know what's necessary
but there might be something which we hadn't thought of and a qualified
plumber could advise.

My thoughts would be to provide a separate storage tank in the loft which
only feeds the toilets, and arrange for that to be filled - via a pump -
from your collected water, or from the mains when non is available.
However, with the current cost of water, it would take some time to recoup
the investment.

--
*I don't have a solution, but I admire your problem. *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Mary Fisher wrote:
Has anyone installed a system for flushing the wc using harvested water?

We'd like to be able to switch between mains and pumped collected water.
This would enable harvested water to be used for the garden in summer and
not wasted in winter - when there is more rain to collect but it isn't used.

Spouse has made plans to do it but I wondered if anyone here had done it and
could give the benefits of experience.

Theories and opinions are inappropriate although *authoritative* legal
advice will be welcome. We're confident that we know what's necessary but
there might be something which we hadn't thought of and a qualified plumber
could advise.

TIA

Mary

You will have to be careful not to risk contaminating the potable water
supply. There are water regulations that cover what you can & cannot do
in this area.

Look on the website: http://www.wras.co.uk/

This is the Water Regulations Advisory Service. There are links to the
actual regs from there. Before the flamers start up about regulations,
red tape etc etc. It is in everyones best interest that potable water
supply is strictly regulated.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Mary Fisher wrote:
Has anyone installed a system for flushing the wc using harvested water?

We'd like to be able to switch between mains and pumped collected water.
This would enable harvested water to be used for the garden in summer
and not wasted in winter - when there is more rain to collect but it
isn't used.

My thoughts would be to provide a separate storage tank in the loft which
only feeds the toilets, and arrange for that to be filled - via a pump -
from your collected water, or from the mains when non is available.
However, with the current cost of water, it would take some time to recoup
the investment.

Wouldn't there be a likelihood that contamination in the harvested water
- ie assorted bits of crud which it would undoubtedly contain - would
damage/clog up valves, prevent float valves from seating properly?

David

On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 11:48:24 GMT, Lobster wrote:

Wouldn't there be a likelihood that contamination in the harvested
water - ie assorted bits of crud which it would undoubtedly contain -
would damage/clog up valves, prevent float valves from seating
properly?

Assuming ther orginal source of water is the roof, yes it will contain
"bits" but most will settle out in the primary collection tank. The fill
rate of conventional 3 to 4' high, diverter fed, top filled water butt
isn't enough to disturb the sediment. Take the pump feed 6" above the
bottom and through a coarse filter so as not "suck up" the sediment(*)
and I think very little will find it's way to the loft tank. Up in the
loft tank it can settle again with the outlet a little above the base.

Finding a pump that doesn't have to high a flow rate, thus stiring either
the lower or upper tank might be fun. Also automatic (if required) change
over between mains and harvested water might be fun and you really do not
want any back siphonage of harvested water into the mains...

(*) Perhaps arrange the feed through a short upstand of pipe with filter
element on the sides rather than the end.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Dave Liquorice wrote:

.. Also automatic (if required) change
over between mains and harvested water might be fun and you really do not
want any back siphonage of harvested water into the mains...

How bloody irresponsible an answer.

It doesnt sound like 'fun' to me. I take very seriously any threat to
Public Water Supplies. Your local Water Inspector might have something
to say about the possibility of a criminal offence, which it could be.

Bookworm wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:

. Also automatic (if required) change
over between mains and harvested water might be fun and you really do not
want any back siphonage of harvested water into the mains...

How bloody irresponsible an answer.

It doesnt sound like 'fun' to me. I take very seriously any threat to
Public Water Supplies. Your local Water Inspector might have something
to say about the possibility of a criminal offence, which it could be.

This is all a done deal in the sense that its been done and people know
how to do it effectively, legally and safely. However I havent done it
personally, so I'll do as Mary said and not tell her.


NT

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Mary Fisher wrote:
Has anyone installed a system for flushing the wc using harvested water?

We'd like to be able to switch between mains and pumped collected water.
This would enable harvested water to be used for the garden in summer
and not wasted in winter - when there is more rain to collect but it
isn't used.

Spouse has made plans to do it but I wondered if anyone here had done it
and could give the benefits of experience.

Theories and opinions are inappropriate although *authoritative* legal
advice will be welcome. We're confident that we know what's necessary
but there might be something which we hadn't thought of and a qualified
plumber could advise.

My thoughts would be to provide a separate storage tank in the loft which
only feeds the toilets, and arrange for that to be filled - via a pump -
from your collected water, or from the mains when non is available.
However, with the current cost of water, it would take some time to recoup
the investment.

--
*I don't have a solution, but I admire your problem. *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

A friend of mine is currently selfbuildng a house and has installed a
collection tank under the patio with an access hole for cleaning etc. It is
filled from the gutters and has a commercial controller to switch between
mains and tank water. He plans to use it for loo flushing and the washing
machine.This extra potential use for filtered rain water should
significantly shorten the payback time. Not sure if he is using it for the
dishwasher too but the cost of electical heating might make this less
economic?

Bob

On 2006-09-10 14:26:56 +0100, "Bob Minchin"
said:



A friend of mine is currently selfbuildng a house and has installed a
collection tank under the patio with an access hole for cleaning etc. It is
filled from the gutters and has a commercial controller to switch between
mains and tank water. He plans to use it for loo flushing and the washing
machine.This extra potential use for filtered rain water should
significantly shorten the payback time. Not sure if he is using it for the
dishwasher too but the cost of electical heating might make this less
economic?

Bob

Not really because most dishwashers are now cold fill using small
amounts of water.

However, I am not sure that it's a good idea to use untreated water for
washing dishes

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2006-09-10 14:26:56 +0100, "Bob Minchin"
said:



A friend of mine is currently selfbuildng a house and has installed a
collection tank under the patio with an access hole for cleaning etc. It
is
filled from the gutters and has a commercial controller to switch between
mains and tank water. He plans to use it for loo flushing and the washing
machine.This extra potential use for filtered rain water should
significantly shorten the payback time. Not sure if he is using it for
the
dishwasher too but the cost of electical heating might make this less
economic?

Bob

Not really because most dishwashers are now cold fill using small amounts
of water.

However, I am not sure that it's a good idea to use untreated water for
washing dishes


No-one but a cretin would even think of it!

Your wife and my wife must be totally different personalities to even
countenance washing clothes with less than crystal clear water, which yours
from the tank isn't likely to be.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

My thoughts would be to provide a separate storage tank in the loft which
only feeds the toilets, and arrange for that to be filled - via a pump -
from your collected water,

Yes, we plan to do that.

However, with the current cost of water, it would take some time to recoup
the investment.

Saving money is not the aim. We already have a reclaimed tank anyway and
plenty of plumbing stuff.

Pay-back isn't considered when we buy a bottle of wine so why should it for
this?

Mary

Wouldn't there be a likelihood that contamination in the harvested water -
ie assorted bits of crud which it would undoubtedly contain - would
damage/clog up valves, prevent float valves from seating properly?

A filter has to be part of the system.

Mary

David

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.com...

Also automatic (if required) change
over between mains and harvested water might be fun

We intend manual switching.

(*) Perhaps arrange the feed through a short upstand of pipe with filter
element on the sides rather than the end.

That's what we plan.

Mary

In article ,
"Ash" writes:
No-one but a cretin would even think of it!

Your wife and my wife must be totally different personalities to even
countenance washing clothes with less than crystal clear water, which yours
from the tank isn't likely to be.

It is from my water butt.

--
Andrew Gabriel

"Bob Minchin" wrote in message
...


A friend of mine is currently selfbuildng a house and has installed a
collection tank under the patio with an access hole for cleaning etc.

That would be ideal but retro fitting would be too great an upheavel.

It is
filled from the gutters and has a commercial controller to switch between
mains and tank water. He plans to use it for loo flushing and the washing
machine.

Yes, that's what we've been considering too.

This extra potential use for filtered rain water should
significantly shorten the payback time. Not sure if he is using it for the
dishwasher too but the cost of electical heating might make this less
economic?

It's not legal either, as far as I can discover.

Mary

Bob

"Ash" wrote in message
...


Your wife and my wife must be totally different personalities to even
countenance washing clothes with less than crystal clear water, which
yours from the tank isn't likely to be.

It's perfectly acceptable and even recommended.

"Bookworm" wrote in message
ups.com...

You will have to be careful not to risk contaminating the potable water
supply. There are water regulations that cover what you can & cannot do
in this area.

We know that.

Look on the website: http://www.wras.co.uk/

This is the Water Regulations Advisory Service. There are links to the
actual regs from there. Before the flamers start up about regulations,
red tape etc etc. It is in everyones best interest that potable water
supply is strictly regulated.

I agree.

Mary

On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 15:49:41 +0100, Ash wrote:

However, I am not sure that it's a good idea to use untreated water
for washing dishes

No-one but a cretin would even think of it!

Except that dishwashers wash a pretty hot temperatures, hot enough to
kill of most bugs and if the heat doesn't get 'em the dishwashing
chemicals probably will. B-)

Your wife and my wife must be totally different personalities to even
countenance washing clothes with less than crystal clear water, which
yours from the tank isn't likely to be.

Quite, all manner of interesting and visible wildlife in our, covered,
water butt. Loo flushing yes. Washing clothes and dishes? Not for me
thank you. Despite what I say above. B-)

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On 10 Sep 2006 06:18:45 -0700, Bookworm wrote:

.. Also automatic (if required) change over between mains and
harvested water might be fun and of harvested water into the mains...

How bloody irresponsible an answer.

What the **** are you on, 'cause it's ****.

I said "you really do not want any back siphonage". It is warning that
without careful thought back siphonage is a non-obvious possibilty which
"you really do not want".

It doesnt sound like 'fun' to me.

"Fun" as in a challanging techincal problem, something that you obviously
have no imagination to comprehend. Actually the isolation is **** easy to
do, it's the control system that's the hard bit.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 11:56:14 +0100, Mary Fisher wrote:

Has anyone installed a system for flushing the wc using harvested water?

Yes.

We'd like to be able to switch between mains and pumped collected water.
This would enable harvested water to be used for the garden in summer and
not wasted in winter - when there is more rain to collect but it isn't used.

It doesn't sound like a good solution to me. We collect rainwater via a
sediment trap and a particulate filter into a large (3,000 litre)
underground storage tank. Because of the difference in levels (~600 ft) we
don't pump water into the tank from the watercourse in the valley below,
but we do have an extraction licence (or the equivalent) and we also are
about to construct a borehole for water extraction. These water sources
could be pumped to the tank if necessary, probably using solar or
windpowered pumps.

Since the system has to cope with lavatory flushing, instead of installing
a changeover as you appear to be thinking of, we use the other approach of
having a float valve in he tank. When levels get very low (below a reserve
of 50 litres or so) the valve admits mains water so that there's always
something there to flush the lavatory. Simple, effective and as close to
automatic as you can get.

At present "grey" water is passed through a degreasing trap then to an
anaerobic filter and then into land drains. Howewer I intend to get the
quality of the effluent water checked and if the quality is sufficiently
high that will be returned to the storage tank for slushing and irrigation.

Anyroad up you won't read this, so it's your loss.

In article .com,
Bookworm wrote:
. Also automatic (if required) change over between mains and harvested
water might be fun and you really do not want any back siphonage of
harvested water into the mains...

How bloody irresponsible an answer.

It doesnt sound like 'fun' to me. I take very seriously any threat to
Public Water Supplies. Your local Water Inspector might have something
to say about the possibility of a criminal offence, which it could be.

Try reading what was written *carefully* And don't just read what you
obviously want to into it. To me it says the job of making sure the
harvested water on an automatic changeover system doesn't get into the
mains might be 'fun' ie difficult.

--
*How come you never hear about gruntled employees? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 2006-09-10 16:47:04 +0100, "Dave Liquorice" said:

On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 15:49:41 +0100, Ash wrote:

However, I am not sure that it's a good idea to use untreated water for
washing dishes

No-one but a cretin would even think of it!

Except that dishwashers wash a pretty hot temperatures, hot enough to
kill of most bugs and if the heat doesn't get 'em the dishwashing
chemicals probably will. B-)

The wash cycle might be, but the last rinse cycles may be in cold water....



Your wife and my wife must be totally different personalities to even
countenance washing clothes with less than crystal clear water, which
yours from the tank isn't likely to be.

Quite, all manner of interesting and visible wildlife in our, covered,
water butt. Loo flushing yes. Washing clothes and dishes? Not for me
thank you. Despite what I say above. B-)

In article ,
Mary Fisher wrote:
My thoughts would be to provide a separate storage tank in the loft
which only feeds the toilets, and arrange for that to be filled - via
a pump - from your collected water,

Yes, we plan to do that.

However, with the current cost of water, it would take some time to
recoup the investment.

Saving money is not the aim. We already have a reclaimed tank anyway and
plenty of plumbing stuff.

I'll bet you don't have all the bits to do the fully automatic system I
was thinking of...

Pay-back isn't considered when we buy a bottle of wine so why should it
for this?

You'll get pleasure from flushing your loo with rain water? What ever
turns you on. However, I'd be inclined to investigate the cost of pumping
etc and the life of such things. There is no shortage of water in this
country or likely to be - only the distribution to heavily populated
areas needs sorting.

--
*Not all men are annoying. Some are dead.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

The message
from Andy Hall contains these words:

Except that dishwashers wash a pretty hot temperatures, hot enough to
kill of most bugs and if the heat doesn't get 'em the dishwashing
chemicals probably will. B-)

The wash cycle might be, but the last rinse cycles may be in cold water....

Final cycle on diswashers is very hot - it's the drying cycle.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

In article ,
Andy Hall writes:
On 2006-09-10 16:47:04 +0100, "Dave Liquorice" said:
Except that dishwashers wash a pretty hot temperatures, hot enough to
kill of most bugs and if the heat doesn't get 'em the dishwashing
chemicals probably will. B-)

The wash cycle might be, but the last rinse cycles may be in cold water....

The final rinse is very hot in most of the ones I've had or used
(all except a small cheap one). It is used to heat the contents
so they dry afterwards.

--
Andrew Gabriel

On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 18:31:31 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:

The wash cycle might be, but the last rinse cycles may be in cold
water....

Good point, however when we used a dishwasher you could hardly handle the
stuff due to it being too hot straight after the cycle had completed. You
had to open the door a bit and wait 10 mins or so...

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 18:27:57 +0100, Owain wrote:

Millions of people round the world, and quite a few in the UK, have
untreated (or lightly treated) private water supplies and don't all
have cryptospiridium or bilharzia.

I doubt there are many untreated private supplies in the UK. TPTB insist
on regular testing and installation of suitable plant if levels of bugs
and/or minerals and/or pollutants exceed certain limits. In fact I
wouldn't be at all surprised to find that a private supply, filtered and
UV treated *far* cleaner than the average public mains supply.

But we are talking about completely untreated, apart from settlement,
rainwater collected from the roof. Complete with washed down bird poop,
atmospheric fall out and what ever eggs/spores happen to be on said birds
feet or in their poo or just fall out of the air.

I've drunk from fast flowing mountain streams with no ill effects but I
do explore a good 50yds upstream first to make sure there isn't a dead
sheep first. B-) I wouldn't drink dircetly from a lowland stream or river
though.

You wouldn't survive long in the highlands then, where the beautifully
soft mains water is brown thanks to the peat.

Or Birmingham, good 'ole welsh peat in that case.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On 2006-09-10 18:46:17 +0100, Guy King said:

The message
from Andy Hall contains these words:

Except that dishwashers wash a pretty hot temperatures, hot enough to
kill of most bugs and if the heat doesn't get 'em the dishwashing
chemicals probably will. B-)

The wash cycle might be, but the last rinse cycles may be in cold water....

Final cycle on diswashers is very hot - it's the drying cycle.

Depends on the dishwasher, depends on the setting....

Either way, could one be certain that the temperature is high enough to
kill off bugs?

Considering the tiny amount of water that dishwashers use, it's not
really worth the effort anyway.

On 10 Sep 2006 06:18:45 -0700, "Bookworm" wrote:

|Dave Liquorice wrote:
|
|. Also automatic (if required) change
| over between mains and harvested water might be fun and you really do not
| want any back siphonage of harvested water into the mains...
|
|How bloody irresponsible an answer.
|
|It doesnt sound like 'fun' to me. I take very seriously any threat to
|Public Water Supplies. Your local Water Inspector might have something
|to say about the possibility of a criminal offence, which it could be.

It is however a simple matter to prevent back siphonage, so mentioning the
problem in the same sentence as saying that water harvesting is possible is
highly responsible.
--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk Google Groups is IME the *worst*
method of accessing usenet. GG subscribers would be well advised get a
newsreader, say Agent, and a newsserver, say news.individual.net. These
will allow them: to see only *new* posts, a killfile, and other goodies.

On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 14:42:53 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:

|On 2006-09-10 14:26:56 +0100, "Bob Minchin"
said:
|
|
|
| A friend of mine is currently selfbuildng a house and has installed a
| collection tank under the patio with an access hole for cleaning etc. It is
| filled from the gutters and has a commercial controller to switch between
| mains and tank water. He plans to use it for loo flushing and the washing
| machine.This extra potential use for filtered rain water should
| significantly shorten the payback time. Not sure if he is using it for the
| dishwasher too but the cost of electical heating might make this less
| economic?
|
| Bob
|
|Not really because most dishwashers are now cold fill using small
|amounts of water.
|
|However, I am not sure that it's a good idea to use untreated water for
|washing dishes

If the washing water is over 72 deg C when used pathogenic bugs will be
killed.

--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk Google Groups is IME the *worst*
method of accessing usenet. GG subscribers would be well advised get a
newsreader, say Agent, and a newsserver, say news.individual.net. These
will allow them: to see only *new* posts, a killfile, and other goodies.

Also automatic (if required) change
over between mains and harvested water might be fun

We intend manual switching.

No need. Just have a standard level valve on the collection tank that only
comes on when the tank is very empty.

Christian.

You wouldn't survive long in the highlands then, where the beautifully
soft mains water is brown thanks to the peat.

Or Birmingham, good 'ole welsh peat in that case.

Yes. Birmingham water is pretty disgusting. I was glad to go back to
Reading. I basically only drink water and beer, normally.

Christian.

On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 10:23:09 +0100, wrote:

|On 10 Sep,
| Dave Fawthrop wrote:
|
| If the washing water is over 72 deg C when used
|
|Most but not all
|
| pathogenic bugs will be killed.

Which *pathogenic* bacteria will survive 72 deg C?
--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk Google Groups is IME the *worst*
method of accessing usenet. GG subscribers would be well advised get a
newsreader, say Agent, and a newsserver, say news.individual.net. These
will allow them: to see only *new* posts, a killfile, and other goodies.

On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 10:01:27 +0100, Christian McArdle wrote:

Yes. Birmingham water is pretty disgusting. I was glad to go back to
Reading.

Reading steals our water, the *******s.

On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 10:01:27 +0100, Christian McArdle wrote:

Yes. Birmingham water is pretty disgusting. I was glad to go back to
Reading. I basically only drink water and beer, normally.

Thinking about it it might not be peat in Brums water but rust from the
cast iron pipes that bring from the Elan Valley. At least it is soft. St
Albans water wasn't nice, hard and the lime scale would be some rather
intresting shades and green and blue... Up here our water was hard when
it came from an adit just up the hill, but very clean white scale. We've
since been switched to a reservior supply from the top of Weardale, soft
and clean. B-)

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
...
Also automatic (if required) change
over between mains and harvested water might be fun

We intend manual switching.

No need. Just have a standard level valve on the collection tank that only
comes on when the tank is very empty.

No, becasue there might be times when we need the water for the garden. Our
idea was seasonal manual switching.

Mary

Christian.

wrote in message ...
On 10 Sep,
"Ash" wrote:

Your wife and my wife must be totally different personalities to even
countenance washing clothes with less than crystal clear water, which
yours
from the tank isn't likely to be.

60odd years ago my mother used harvested rain water for all clothes
washing.
It was clear, and above all soft,

Yes, that's a great advantage in very hard water areas. Ours isn't bad but
it would still be beneficial.

Mary

No need. Just have a standard level valve on the collection tank that
only comes on when the tank is very empty.

No, becasue there might be times when we need the water for the garden.
Our idea was seasonal manual switching.

What difference does it make whether you use it in the bog or the garden? It
is all mains water saved. If you run out, then you use mains for the garden
as well. You won't use any more water and you may even use less, as the
water levels will run lower and you can take greater advantage of any summer
thunderstorms.

Christian.

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 10:01:27 +0100, Christian McArdle wrote:

Yes. Birmingham water is pretty disgusting. I was glad to go back to
Reading. I basically only drink water and beer, normally.

Thinking about it it might not be peat in Brums water but rust from the
cast iron pipes that bring from the Elan Valley.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

I have worked inside the Elan Valley Aquaduct and the walls are thick
with peat. There are not many steel/iron pipes in the aquaduct. They
are mainly cut & cover brick lined up to shoulder height and concrete
tops. Steel Pipes where it crosses river valleys etc.

The water when it arrives at Frankley is black with peat. Amazing how
clean they get it.

"Dave Fawthrop" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 10:23:09 +0100, wrote:

|On 10 Sep,
| Dave Fawthrop wrote:
|
| If the washing water is over 72 deg C when used
|
|Most but not all
|
| pathogenic bugs will be killed.

Which *pathogenic* bacteria will survive 72 deg C?
--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk

Clostridium perfringens

Andy