[dcbwhaley]

Any advice on buying taps. I need sizes from 2.5mm to 6mm (including
3.5 mm - even though my local DIY shop tells me metric screws only come
in whole numbers) for tapping mainly aluminium and occassionally mild
steel.

MY internet search seems to find huge sets of taps and dies at
suspiciously low prices or individul items at pocket wrecking prices.
Materials seem to be carbon steel, tungsten steel and high speed steel.
Which is best?

Dave

[Dave Baker]

"dcbwhaley" wrote in message
ups.com...
Any advice on buying taps. I need sizes from 2.5mm to 6mm (including
3.5 mm - even though my local DIY shop tells me metric screws only come
in whole numbers) for tapping mainly aluminium and occassionally mild
steel.

MY internet search seems to find huge sets of taps and dies at
suspiciously low prices or individul items at pocket wrecking prices.
Materials seem to be carbon steel, tungsten steel and high speed steel.
Which is best?

Dave

HSS. Go to J&L online and buy something decent. Avoid cheap and cheerful
carbon steel sets made in Itchifanni because they snap like carrots and are
often so badly made the threads they cut aren't to size anyway.

http://jlindustrial.com/index.jsp?redirect=UK
--
Dave Baker
www.pumaracing.co.uk
"Why," said Ford squatting down beside him and shivering, "are you lying
face down in the dust?"
"It's a very effective way of being wretched," said Marvin.

[Bob Eager]

On Sat, 9 Sep 2006 18:55:10 UTC, "dcbwhaley" wrote:

Any advice on buying taps. I need sizes from 2.5mm to 6mm (including
3.5 mm - even though my local DIY shop tells me metric screws only come
in whole numbers)

Can't help with the taps (don't know enough) but if you like winding up
the DIY shop...ask them about the screws for electrical
accessories...ask them what size they are! Guess you know they are
M3.5...
--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
Avenue Supplies, http://avenuesupplies.co.uk

[Osprey]

dcbwhaley wrote:
Any advice on buying taps. I need sizes from 2.5mm to 6mm (including
3.5 mm - even though my local DIY shop tells me metric screws only come
in whole numbers) for tapping mainly aluminium and occassionally mild
steel.

MY internet search seems to find huge sets of taps and dies at
suspiciously low prices or individul items at pocket wrecking prices.
Materials seem to be carbon steel, tungsten steel and high speed steel.
Which is best?

Dave


This siyte is very highly rated for quality Taps n Dies

http://www.tapdie.com/

[Osprey]

dcbwhaley wrote:
Any advice on buying taps. I need sizes from 2.5mm to 6mm (including
3.5 mm - even though my local DIY shop tells me metric screws only come
in whole numbers) for tapping mainly aluminium and occassionally mild
steel.

MY internet search seems to find huge sets of taps and dies at
suspiciously low prices or individul items at pocket wrecking prices.
Materials seem to be carbon steel, tungsten steel and high speed steel.
Which is best?

Dave


This site is very highly rated for quality Taps n Dies

http://www.tapdie.com/

[Mike]

dcbwhaley wrote:
Any advice on buying taps. I need sizes from 2.5mm to 6mm (including
3.5 mm - even though my local DIY shop tells me metric screws only come
in whole numbers) for tapping mainly aluminium and occassionally mild
steel.

MY internet search seems to find huge sets of taps and dies at
suspiciously low prices or individul items at pocket wrecking prices.
Materials seem to be carbon steel, tungsten steel and high speed steel.
Which is best?

Dave
Hi Dave
for aluminium carbon taps will be a lot cheaper and will work fine for
the occassional mild steel. Just remember the tapping size hole to give
a 60% to 80% thread engagement. Try some of the model engineering suppy
firms.

Mike Cole

[Dave Baker]

"Mike" wrote in message
ps.com...

dcbwhaley wrote:
Any advice on buying taps. I need sizes from 2.5mm to 6mm (including
3.5 mm - even though my local DIY shop tells me metric screws only come
in whole numbers) for tapping mainly aluminium and occassionally mild
steel.

MY internet search seems to find huge sets of taps and dies at
suspiciously low prices or individul items at pocket wrecking prices.
Materials seem to be carbon steel, tungsten steel and high speed steel.
Which is best?

Dave
Hi Dave
for aluminium carbon taps will be a lot cheaper and will work fine for
the occassional mild steel. Just remember the tapping size hole to give
a 60% to 80% thread engagement. Try some of the model engineering suppy
firms.

The problem with carbon steel is not the material but the manufacture. From
a known name manufacturer a carbon steel tap would be fine but unfortunately
the cheap sets vary from ok to useless. Good manufacturers tend to use HSS
because the extra material cost makes little difference to the final price.
The Hertel and Lyndon taps from J&L are only £2 to £5 each in the sizes the
OP wants so they aren't going to break the bank. You can manage with just
2nd (plug) taps for most work rather than having to buy all three per size.

The alternative is somewhere like Sert Tools near Slough for second hand
taps if you are prepared to rake through their boxes to find what you want.
You can pick up as-new top quality taps like Dormer for a quid each. I go
there every now and then with my list of missing sizes and spend an hour or
two going through their boxes of taps, dies, reamers, drills etc.
--
Dave Baker
www.pumaracing.co.uk
"Why," said Ford squatting down beside him and shivering, "are you lying
face down in the dust?"
"It's a very effective way of being wretched," said Marvin.

[dcbwhaley]

This site is very highly rated for quality Taps n Dies

http://www.tapdie.com/

Thanks for that. Looks very good. Not cheap but affordable. And
what a range! Left hand metric, cycle... I am immmmmmmmmpressed

[Andy Hall]

On 2006-09-09 23:27:22 +0100, "dcbwhaley" said:


This site is very highly rated for quality Taps n Dies

http://www.tapdie.com/

Thanks for that. Looks very good. Not cheap but affordable. And
what a range! Left hand metric, cycle... I am immmmmmmmmpressed

I bought one of their metric sets a couple of months ago, partly
because I couldn't
find the range of sizes elsewhere, partly because of having 2-3 taps
for each size and not wanting the cheap sets which don''t seem to last
very well.

When all of that is taken into account, a price of around £100 is quite
impressive.= as are the results I've had.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article . com,
dcbwhaley wrote:
Any advice on buying taps. I need sizes from 2.5mm to 6mm (including
3.5 mm - even though my local DIY shop tells me metric screws only come
in whole numbers) for tapping mainly aluminium and occassionally mild
steel.

MY internet search seems to find huge sets of taps and dies at
suspiciously low prices or individul items at pocket wrecking prices.
Materials seem to be carbon steel, tungsten steel and high speed steel.
Which is best?

I think you've answered your own question. For serious use you need
expensive HSS types. For occasional use where the thread isn't really
critical a cheap set might be ok - although they tend to vary somewhat.
I bought a Draper set in desperation one Sunday after 'losing' a
particular one I needed and they proved ok at the price.

--
*There are 3 kinds of people: those who can count & those who can't.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Dave Baker]

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article . com,
dcbwhaley wrote:
Any advice on buying taps. I need sizes from 2.5mm to 6mm (including
3.5 mm - even though my local DIY shop tells me metric screws only come
in whole numbers) for tapping mainly aluminium and occassionally mild
steel.

MY internet search seems to find huge sets of taps and dies at
suspiciously low prices or individul items at pocket wrecking prices.
Materials seem to be carbon steel, tungsten steel and high speed steel.
Which is best?

I think you've answered your own question. For serious use you need
expensive HSS types. For occasional use where the thread isn't really
critical a cheap set might be ok - although they tend to vary somewhat.
I bought a Draper set in desperation one Sunday after 'losing' a
particular one I needed and they proved ok at the price.

Draper stuff is usually reasonably well made and serviceable. By contrast my
first set of cheapish carbon steel taps and dies bought many years ago
(can't be arsed to go to the garage to look up the make) was okish in the
larger sizes for cleaning out existing threads, useless in all sizes for
cutting new threads in anything (not sharp enough) and the first time I used
the 4mm tap to clean out a thread in a carburetor it buggered it completely
by cutting it massively oversize.

Since then I only use quality brands designed for real engineers. There's
nothing worse than trying to do a good job with crap tools. The OP wants
small sizes of taps and those are the worst for quality in cheap makes. A
few thou error on size in a large tap might go unnoticed. The same error in
a 2.5mm tap will mean the resulting thread is useless and strips the first
time you tighten a bolt in it.

You also break the small sizes more easily and that's where HSS instead of
carbon steel has a double benefit. Stronger and much less brittle and likely
to snap.

Anyway the OP can do what he wants but when you do this sort of thing for a
living you quickly find out just how expensive cheap tools are.

Another trap I fell into once was a set of 8 or so adjustable reamers at a
model makers exhibition many years ago. Quality makes like Taylor and Jones
are the best part of £30 each. This boxed set was £40 the lot and despite
huge misgivings I fell for it. What a bloody waste of money. The holders
were ground on the **** so all four blades didn't cut at the same time, the
blades were badly ground, blunt and snapped like carrots the first time I
tried to use them to ream out some bronze valve guides. I got no use out of
any of them at all in the end and the money was wasted.

However, each T&J reamer has given me years of faithful service before
eventually needing a new set of blades.

Repeat after me. Never ever ever ever buy cheap tools.
--
Dave Baker
www.pumaracing.co.uk
"Why," said Ford squatting down beside him and shivering, "are you lying
face down in the dust?"
"It's a very effective way of being wretched," said Marvin.

[Tony Williams]

In article ,
Dave Baker wrote:
[snip]
You also break the small sizes more easily and that's where HSS
instead of carbon steel has a double benefit. Stronger and much
less brittle and likely to snap.

A tap (or a stud extractor!) that snaps off in the job
turns a minor problem into a right pain in the whatsit.

--
Tony Williams.

[VisionSet]

On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 11:19:15 +0100, Tony Williams wrote:


A tap (or a stud extractor!) that snaps off in the job
turns a minor problem into a right pain in the whatsit.

Always buy snap-on, mac or similarly expensive stud extractors!

--
Mike W

[Tony Williams]

In article ,
visionset wrote:

On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 11:19:15 +0100, Tony Williams wrote:

A tap (or a stud extractor!) that snaps off in the job
turns a minor problem into a right pain in the whatsit.

Always buy snap-on, mac or similarly expensive stud extractors!

Mine were expensive, Dormer.

--
Tony Williams.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
Dave Baker wrote:
Repeat after me. Never ever ever ever buy cheap tools.

It's generally good advice, but there are times when they can be ok. For
example I keep my car spanners (good and expensive makes) handy for car
work. But in my workshop which is actually a first floor bedroom and
mainly used for electronic stuff I have cheaper sets bought from the sheds
- as the sort of use they're put to doesn't tax them. Of course you'd
check they are a decent fit, but they appear to be. I have a combination
metric set which cost 1/10th of decent stuff but does that job ok. And
isn't covered in grease. ;-)

--
*Pentium wise, pen and paper foolish *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Dave Baker]

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Dave Baker wrote:
Repeat after me. Never ever ever ever buy cheap tools.

It's generally good advice, but there are times when they can be ok. For
example I keep my car spanners (good and expensive makes) handy for car
work. But in my workshop which is actually a first floor bedroom and
mainly used for electronic stuff I have cheaper sets bought from the sheds
- as the sort of use they're put to doesn't tax them. Of course you'd
check they are a decent fit, but they appear to be. I have a combination
metric set which cost 1/10th of decent stuff but does that job ok. And
isn't covered in grease. ;-)

Things like spanners and sockets are a different kettle of fish to cutting
tools. I use Draper spanners and sockets quite happily for professional
engine building use. I've never felt the need to buy Snap On or Britool at
many times the price. They might not be quite as strong or as good a fit but
they'll always work to some extent, usually a quite sufficient one.

However a poor cutting tool might not work at all. It might cut oversize,
undersize or just jam and break. A cheap spanner always has some utility. A
cheap tap might have zero utility which is why I stick to pro quality ones.
--
Dave Baker
www.pumaracing.co.uk
"Why," said Ford squatting down beside him and shivering, "are you lying
face down in the dust?"
"It's a very effective way of being wretched," said Marvin.

[dcbwhaley]

As a supplementary: what kind of tap wrench is preffered. The straight
bar type or the tee handled chuck type?

[Dave Baker]

"dcbwhaley" wrote in message
ups.com...
As a supplementary: what kind of tap wrench is preffered. The straight
bar type or the tee handled chuck type?

The former for applying more torque when you're tapping a new thread and the
latter for ease of handling when you're cleaning out lots of existing
threads.
--
Dave Baker
www.pumaracing.co.uk
"Why," said Ford squatting down beside him and shivering, "are you lying
face down in the dust?"
"It's a very effective way of being wretched," said Marvin.

[[email protected]]

buy german or japanese Taps, american ond (shudder) chinese/tiwanese
taps are made from poorer grades of steel.

Empress2454 #124457


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dcbwhaley wrote:
Any advice on buying taps. I need sizes from 2.5mm to 6mm (including
3.5 mm - even though my local DIY shop tells me metric screws only come
in whole numbers) for tapping mainly aluminium and occassionally mild
steel.

MY internet search seems to find huge sets of taps and dies at
suspiciously low prices or individul items at pocket wrecking prices.
Materials seem to be carbon steel, tungsten steel and high speed steel.
Which is best?

Dave

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
Dave Baker wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article , Dave Baker
wrote:
Repeat after me. Never ever ever ever buy cheap tools.

It's generally good advice, but there are times when they can be ok.
For example I keep my car spanners (good and expensive makes) handy
for car work. But in my workshop which is actually a first floor
bedroom and mainly used for electronic stuff I have cheaper sets
bought from the sheds - as the sort of use they're put to doesn't tax
them. Of course you'd check they are a decent fit, but they appear to
be. I have a combination metric set which cost 1/10th of decent stuff
but does that job ok. And isn't covered in grease. ;-)

Things like spanners and sockets are a different kettle of fish to
cutting tools.

Funnily I bought a cheap set of drills from Lidl just the other week not
expecting them to be much good. All the 0.5 sizes to 10mm in a nice steel
case for IIRC 4.99. and it was the case I really wanted for carrying
drills out to the car, etc. And having drilled a fair amount of mild steel
with them they've done as well as branded shed types at many times the
price. Although I try and stock up with tubes of production drills at
autojumbles for the common sizes.

I use Draper spanners and sockets quite happily for
professional engine building use. I've never felt the need to buy Snap
On or Britool at many times the price. They might not be quite as
strong or as good a fit but they'll always work to some extent, usually
a quite sufficient one.

Until quite recently my cars were mainly UNF and UNC threads, etc - so on
getting something more modern I decided on some decent metric spanners and
got Halfords pro range. Which are a delight to look at use. ;-)

However a poor cutting tool might not work at all. It might cut
oversize, undersize or just jam and break. A cheap spanner always has
some utility.

Not if it springs and wrecks a nut, though. ;-)

A cheap tap might have zero utility which is why I stick
to pro quality ones.

I do see where you're at, but it does depend on the likely use.

--
*Bills travel through the mail at twice the speed of cheques *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Dave Baker]

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
Things like spanners and sockets are a different kettle of fish to
cutting tools.

Funnily I bought a cheap set of drills from Lidl just the other week not
expecting them to be much good. All the 0.5 sizes to 10mm in a nice steel
case for IIRC 4.99. and it was the case I really wanted for carrying
drills out to the car, etc. And having drilled a fair amount of mild steel
with them they've done as well as branded shed types at many times the
price.

I'm explaining myself very badly. By cutting tools I meant precision cutting
tools that have to work to a tolerance. If they do so they are fully
functional and if they don't they are useless. There's very little utility
in between those two extremes. This includes taps, dies, machine reamers and
adjustable hand reamers, boring and honing equipment and precision grinding
equipment.

Drill bits have a wide range of utility. Even cheap ones will be close to
nominal size and in any case hole size is not critical to a thou or so when
drilling and will vary more due to the machine, the chuck and the speed and
feed than the tool. What you get by paying more is longer life and the
ability to machine tougher materials.

So for occasional or hobby use cheap drill sets are usually fine and in fact
are often pretty good quality. You might not get many holes out of cheap
ones before they go blunt but if you only want to drill one hole it doesn't
matter. In high volume production environments the cost of tool changing and
setting up again will far outweigh the saving on cheap items so you buy the
best.

Similarly most hand tools like spanners and sockets will have a wide range
of utility depending on price. Cheap ones will do most jobs and expensive
ones might only be needed for the occasional stubborn bolt that's rusted
into place.

So finally, boiling down what I've been trying to say into something
comprehensible, it's the importance of the tolerance that determines whether
you need pro quality stuff or can manage with cheaper.

In my experience the worst items for being useless if you buy cheap are taps
and dies. For everything else you tend to have a range of price vs quality
that you can tailor to your personal needs and still get a functional item.
--
Dave Baker
www.pumaracing.co.uk
"Why," said Ford squatting down beside him and shivering, "are you lying
face down in the dust?"
"It's a very effective way of being wretched," said Marvin.

[Tim Lamb]

In message , Dave Baker
writes

Drill bits have a wide range of utility. Even cheap ones will be close to
nominal size and in any case hole size is not critical to a thou or so when
drilling and will vary more due to the machine, the chuck and the speed and
feed than the tool. What you get by paying more is longer life and the
ability to machine tougher materials.

So for occasional or hobby use cheap drill sets are usually fine and in fact
are often pretty good quality. You might not get many holes out of cheap
ones before they go blunt but if you only want to drill one hole it doesn't
matter. In high volume production environments the cost of tool changing and
setting up again will far outweigh the saving on cheap items so you buy the
best.

One drawback is that the shank is left hard and likely to slip in the
chuck under extreme load. I guess drills from SKF/Dormer etc. are part
annealed to avoid this problem.

regards

--
Tim Lamb

[nightjar]

"dcbwhaley" wrote in message
ups.com...
Any advice on buying taps. I need sizes from 2.5mm to 6mm (including
3.5 mm - even though my local DIY shop tells me metric screws only come
in whole numbers) for tapping mainly aluminium and occassionally mild
steel.

MY internet search seems to find huge sets of taps and dies at
suspiciously low prices or individul items at pocket wrecking prices.
Materials seem to be carbon steel, tungsten steel and high speed steel.
Which is best?

For aluminium, the best are fluteless taps. They displace the aluminium,
rather than cutting a thread, which strengthens the thread through local
work hardening. For hand cutting mild steel, the best are HSS straight flute
taps.

You will find all the taps you need, and more, he

http://www.drill-service.co.uk/

Colin Bignell

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article . com,
wrote:
buy german or japanese Taps,

Lidl had tap and die sets for about a tenner - made in Germany.

--
*If you can read this, thank a teecher

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Sylvain VAN DER WALDE]

"dcbwhaley" wrote in message
ups.com...
As a supplementary: what kind of tap wrench is preffered. The straight
bar type or the tee handled chuck type?

In my past work experience; the second type you mention was used with small
taps mainly, and the first type with larger ones. I don't remember seeing
any small straight bar type ones (my Screwfix HSS set has only a large
straight bar one).
I think that you will find the tee handled chuck type wrench more
comfortable and more "sensitive" to use with small taps (in my humble
opinion, of course).

Sylvain.

[Guy King]

The message
from "Dave Plowman (News)" contains these words:

Lidl had tap and die sets for about a tenner - made in Germany.

Were they actually made in Germany, or did they just have German approvals?

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

[[email protected]]

dcbwhaley wrote:

Any advice on buying taps. I need sizes from 2.5mm to 6mm

HSS - no question.

Buy British (or German) because Lucky Golden Hedgehog just aren't worth
taking out of the box.

Avoid multi-size sets, unless you really need everything today. In
general you're better off buying one-size sets of 3 (taper, second,
plug) from someone like Presto, as you need them. With metric there
just aren't that many sizes you need, so the cost of decent ones isn't
onerous.

Three flute are stronger than 2, twin flute are very easily broken in
these small sizes.

Have two sets of M3. It's a common size and they're all to easy to
break.

For sheetmetal, you need a second and can manage with just that. For
blind holes you need a plug too. For deep holes (thick sheet) then you
will start with a taper, especially for large ones and in steel. In
thin aluminium, I'd probably start with a second anyway - taper makes
such a small cut on each turn that it's too easy to strip them by
accident. So yes, for aluminium sheet work on a small budget, you can
manage fine with a single second in any size.

You'll need a couple of tap holders, because M6 wants a nice big one
with a wide bar and M2.5 needs a really lightweight one, such as a T
handle and collect chuck.

Use lubrication. A squirter of real RTD for steel, or anything for
aluminium (plain light grease is fine). A squirter of meths, acetone or
even white spirit is handy for washing swarf out. Yes, you can cut
aluminium dry, but it's a pain and it ruins your taps as the edges
gall. You certainly need grease in a deep hole, just so you can back
out and clean the chips out with it.

Proper back-and-forth chip breaking action please. Spirals are pretty,
but they'll jam.

[[email protected]]

Mike wrote:

for aluminium carbon taps will be a lot cheaper and will work fine for
the occassional mild steel.

Where do I buy carbon steel taps from, that aren't made of cheesemetal
?

Secondly, the improved chemical resistance of HSS is preferable for
work on aluminium, in case I ever have to clean them.

[[email protected]]

visionset wrote:

Always buy snap-on, mac or similarly expensive stud extractors!

Facom, the parallel splined pin sort. They beat the pants off any of
the tapered bolt-wegders, no matter who made them.

Get the appropriately magic-sized drillbit to go with them too, and
keep it with the extractor, not in ther general drills box.

[[email protected]]

Dave Baker wrote:

I use Draper spanners and sockets quite happily for professional
engine building use.

That's because engine building is easy. New, clean components that fit
together. You care about measuring instruments and torque wrenches, but
wrenches and sockets themselves aren't asked to do all that much.

Now try working on restoring old boat engines, where the part is 80
years old, spent all its working life in salty mud, and is
irreplaceble. Now _that's_ when the properly sized and shaped Snap-on
6 point flank drive pays for itself.

[Dave Baker]

wrote in message
oups.com...

Dave Baker wrote:

I use Draper spanners and sockets quite happily for professional
engine building use.

That's because engine building is easy.

You think so do you?

New, clean components that fit
together. You care about measuring instruments and torque wrenches, but
wrenches and sockets themselves aren't asked to do all that much.

Who do you think strips down the old rusty donor engine that gets turned
into a race one?


Now try working on restoring old boat engines, where the part is 80
years old, spent all its working life in salty mud, and is
irreplaceble. Now _that's_ when the properly sized and shaped Snap-on
6 point flank drive pays for itself.

Before I build a nice shiny race engine with new parts I still have to strip
down the old scabby rusty donor engine which might be 30 or more years old
with exactly the same problems as your boat ones. As I said in my previous
post it's for that occasional badly corroded fitting that expensive tools
might help you but for everything else normal quality tools manage just
fine.
--
Dave Baker
www.pumaracing.co.uk
"Why," said Ford squatting down beside him and shivering, "are you lying
face down in the dust?"
"It's a very effective way of being wretched," said Marvin.

[Chris Hodges]

dcbwhaley wrote:
As a supplementary: what kind of tap wrench is preffered. The straight
bar type or the tee handled chuck type?

I prefer a T-handle because I find it easier to keep square to the job
and still get a reasonable torque on the first turn or so (M3-M6 into
ali mostly).

Chris



--
Spamtrap in use
To email replace 127.0.0.1 with btinternet dot com

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article .com,
wrote:
I use Draper spanners and sockets quite happily for professional
engine building use.

That's because engine building is easy. New, clean components that fit
together.

I'm sure Dave will correct me if needed, but I've read that high
performance versions of production engines often start with old
'weathered' cylinder blocks etc. So they'd have to be re-claimed from old
and often rusty engines.

--
*Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.