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Default shower pump installation - anti gravity loop

I am about to install a Salamander ESP100CPV shower pump. The easiest
place for me to put it is in the airing cupboard above the Hot Water
Cylinder. The intructions indicate that I can do this as long as I fit
an anti-gravity loop at least 250mm in depth.

OK, all well and good but at the risk of sounding foolish, is this
something I can buy ready made or do I need to construct one ? If the
latter, what is the best way of doing this in 22mm copper, I don't have
a pipe bender. I guess what I'm really asking is will there be any
problem if I form one out of short straight pieces of pipe with 2x
90degree elbows ?

Thanks.

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Default shower pump installation - anti gravity loop


"Kevin" wrote in message
oups.com...
I am about to install a Salamander ESP100CPV shower pump. The easiest
place for me to put it is in the airing cupboard above the Hot Water
Cylinder. The intructions indicate that I can do this as long as I fit
an anti-gravity loop at least 250mm in depth.

OK, all well and good but at the risk of sounding foolish, is this
something I can buy ready made or do I need to construct one ? If the
latter, what is the best way of doing this in 22mm copper, I don't have
a pipe bender. I guess what I'm really asking is will there be any
problem if I form one out of short straight pieces of pipe with 2x
90degree elbows ?


The whole point of the loop is to dissuade dissolved air from entering the
pumps impellers. I can see any reason why you can't construct one yourself
though to retain optimum flow rates a swept 180 deg turn using a spring or
pipe bender would be better than 2 elbows.


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Default shower pump installation - anti gravity loop

"Fred" wrote in message
...

"Kevin" wrote in message
oups.com...
I am about to install a Salamander ESP100CPV shower pump. The easiest
place for me to put it is in the airing cupboard above the Hot Water
Cylinder. The intructions indicate that I can do this as long as I fit
an anti-gravity loop at least 250mm in depth.

OK, all well and good but at the risk of sounding foolish, is this
something I can buy ready made or do I need to construct one ? If the
latter, what is the best way of doing this in 22mm copper, I don't have
a pipe bender. I guess what I'm really asking is will there be any
problem if I form one out of short straight pieces of pipe with 2x
90degree elbows ?


The whole point of the loop is to dissuade dissolved air from entering the
pumps impellers. I can see any reason why you can't construct one

yourself
though to retain optimum flow rates a swept 180 deg turn using a spring or
pipe bender would be better than 2 elbows.


LOL - a point lost on the last plumber we had..


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Default shower pump installation - anti gravity loop


Kevin wrote:
I am about to install a Salamander ESP100CPV shower pump. The easiest
place for me to put it is in the airing cupboard above the Hot Water
Cylinder. The intructions indicate that I can do this as long as I fit
an anti-gravity loop at least 250mm in depth.

OK, all well and good but at the risk of sounding foolish, is this
something I can buy ready made or do I need to construct one ? If the
latter, what is the best way of doing this in 22mm copper, I don't have
a pipe bender. I guess what I'm really asking is will there be any
problem if I form one out of short straight pieces of pipe with 2x
90degree elbows ?


You should always use swept bends on the piping to pumped showers (read
the instructions). If you don't want to bend copper i would use plastic
pushfit with the purpose made formers (cold forming bend) that allow
you to bend the pipe and hold it in place:

http://www.johnguest.com/part_spec.asp?s=CFB_S1

MBQ

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Default shower pump installation - anti gravity loop

Fred wrote:

"Kevin" wrote in message
oups.com...

I am about to install a Salamander ESP100CPV shower pump. The easiest
place for me to put it is in the airing cupboard above the Hot Water
Cylinder. The intructions indicate that I can do this as long as I fit
an anti-gravity loop at least 250mm in depth.

OK, all well and good but at the risk of sounding foolish, is this
something I can buy ready made or do I need to construct one ? If the
latter, what is the best way of doing this in 22mm copper, I don't have
a pipe bender. I guess what I'm really asking is will there be any
problem if I form one out of short straight pieces of pipe with 2x
90degree elbows ?



The whole point of the loop is to dissuade dissolved air from entering the
pumps impellers.


ITYM it is to prevent convected circulation from causing the pump to
start all by itself even when the shower is not turned on

(preventing air ingress is one of the reasons for using a dedicated
shower flange to feed the shower (Essex / Surrey / Warwix etc))

I can see any reason why you can't construct one yourself
though to retain optimum flow rates a swept 180 deg turn using a spring or
pipe bender would be better than 2 elbows.


Yup definately stick to swept bends in this application.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/


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Default shower pump installation - anti gravity loop

Thanks guys for all the advise. I've just realised that in addition to
fitting the anti-graivity loop, if I want to place the pump above the
hot water cylinder then I need to use an essex flange which means
drilling a hole in the side of the cylinder. I'm not too keen on this
and thought I could just replace the existing top fitting with a Surrey
flange. I may have to look at other options first, most obvious at the
moment is to put the pump under the floorboards, but I'm a little
concerned about noise and vibration.

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Default shower pump installation - anti gravity loop

Kevin wrote:

Thanks guys for all the advise. I've just realised that in addition to
fitting the anti-graivity loop, if I want to place the pump above the
hot water cylinder then I need to use an essex flange which means
drilling a hole in the side of the cylinder. I'm not too keen on this
and thought I could just replace the existing top fitting with a Surrey
flange. I may have to look at other options first, most obvious at the
moment is to put the pump under the floorboards, but I'm a little
concerned about noise and vibration.


The exact pump location does not really change the requirements for the
tank connection. The pump instructions normally give a range of
connection options that start with a dedicated essex flange as the most
deireable, to using the existing top connection as the least. Having
saif that in the right circumstances using the existing top connection
can work fine.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/
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Default shower pump installation - anti gravity loop

The exact pump location does not really change the requirements for the
tank connection. The pump instructions normally give a range of
connection options that start with a dedicated essex flange as the most
deireable, to using the existing top connection as the least. Having
saif that in the right circumstances using the existing top connection
can work fine.


Thanks John. I've re-read the instructions again. The Essex flange
with the anti-gravity loop is compulsory if the pump is fitted above
the outlet from the hot water cylinder. If the pump is fitted below
the outlet then I can use any other approved top entry flange. These
include the Salamander (S) Flange, York Flange and Warix Flange. I
thought I had also read Surrey flange but I may be mistaking this with
the S flange. I figured it would be easier to use one of the approved
top-connection flanges rather than trying to drill a hole in the side
of the cylinder and the associated difficulties of fitting it.

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Default shower pump installation - anti gravity loop

The exact pump location does not really change the requirements for the
tank connection. The pump instructions normally give a range of
connection options that start with a dedicated essex flange as the most
deireable, to using the existing top connection as the least. Having
saif that in the right circumstances using the existing top connection
can work fine.


Thanks John. I've re-read the instructions again. The Essex flange
with the anti-gravity loop is compulsory if the pump is fitted above
the outlet from the hot water cylinder. If the pump is fitted below
the outlet then I can use any other approved top entry flange. These
include the Salamander (S) Flange, York Flange and Warix Flange. I
thought I had also read Surrey flange but I may be mistaking this with
the S flange. I figured it would be easier to use one of the approved
top-connection flanges rather than trying to drill a hole in the side
of the cylinder and the associated difficulties of fitting it.

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Default shower pump installation - anti gravity loop

Kevin wrote:

The exact pump location does not really change the requirements for the
tank connection. The pump instructions normally give a range of
connection options that start with a dedicated essex flange as the most
deireable, to using the existing top connection as the least. Having
saif that in the right circumstances using the existing top connection
can work fine.



Thanks John. I've re-read the instructions again. The Essex flange
with the anti-gravity loop is compulsory if the pump is fitted above
the outlet from the hot water cylinder. If the pump is fitted below


The antigravity loop I can understand being a requirement. However the
choice of flange less so. An Essex flange is a good way to do it
certainly, but not the only way - even with the pump above the cylinder
(but still below the head of the cold tank feeding it)

the outlet then I can use any other approved top entry flange. These
include the Salamander (S) Flange, York Flange and Warix Flange. I
thought I had also read Surrey flange but I may be mistaking this with
the S flange.


Surrey and Warwix flanges are pretty similar - I would have no
hesitation using either.

I figured it would be easier to use one of the approved
top-connection flanges rather than trying to drill a hole in the side
of the cylinder and the associated difficulties of fitting it.


Indeed. I have done one before just using the standard output and it
worked fine. However that was with an optimal setup with the cold
cistern in the loft almost directly above, with a clear run of 22mm
swept bend pipework to the cylinder. It was also only using a 1.4 bar
pump, had it have been more I may not have tried it! (I also had the
option of making up a surrey flange should it prove to not work as well
as hoped)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/


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Default shower pump installation - anti gravity loop

"Kevin" wrote in message
oups.com...
I am about to install a Salamander ESP100CPV shower pump. The easiest
place for me to put it is in the airing cupboard above the Hot Water
Cylinder. The intructions indicate that I can do this as long as I fit
an anti-gravity loop at least 250mm in depth.

OK, all well and good but at the risk of sounding foolish, is this
something I can buy ready made or do I need to construct one ? If the
latter, what is the best way of doing this in 22mm copper, I don't have
a pipe bender. I guess what I'm really asking is will there be any
problem if I form one out of short straight pieces of pipe with 2x
90degree elbows ?

Thanks.


I'll be interested to know how yours is once you've fitted it. Ours was just
put onto the floorboards and consequently these act like a sounding board -
it is very noisy. One day I'll try and build an insulation box.

At times I could take a hammer to the unit. It is very sensitive to the
slightest drip, which will provoke the pump into action periodically. Unlike
it's predecessor, I assume it triggers when the pressure in the pipework
drops below a certain amount. Our old pump required a certain amount of flow
before triggering.

It's a real PIA when you've gone to bed only to realise that the kitchen tap
is dripping *very* slowly and that pump will trigger during the night if you
don't go back downstairs..

Arghh!!

Paul


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Default shower pump installation - anti gravity loop


Paul Andrews wrote:
"Kevin" wrote in message
oups.com...
I am about to install a Salamander ESP100CPV shower pump. The easiest
place for me to put it is in the airing cupboard above the Hot Water
Cylinder. The intructions indicate that I can do this as long as I fit
an anti-gravity loop at least 250mm in depth.

OK, all well and good but at the risk of sounding foolish, is this
something I can buy ready made or do I need to construct one ? If the
latter, what is the best way of doing this in 22mm copper, I don't have
a pipe bender. I guess what I'm really asking is will there be any
problem if I form one out of short straight pieces of pipe with 2x
90degree elbows ?

Thanks.


I'll be interested to know how yours is once you've fitted it. Ours was just
put onto the floorboards and consequently these act like a sounding board -
it is very noisy. One day I'll try and build an insulation box.

At times I could take a hammer to the unit. It is very sensitive to the
slightest drip, which will provoke the pump into action periodically. Unlike
it's predecessor, I assume it triggers when the pressure in the pipework
drops below a certain amount. Our old pump required a certain amount of flow
before triggering.

It's a real PIA when you've gone to bed only to realise that the kitchen tap
is dripping *very* slowly and that pump will trigger during the night if you
don't go back downstairs..

Arghh!!

Paul


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Default shower pump installation - anti gravity loop

It's a real PIA when you've gone to bed only to realise that the kitchen tap
is dripping *very* slowly and that pump will trigger during the night if you
don't go back downstairs..


Damn, I wish I knew this yesterday. I've been in two minds all week
over whether to put the entire hot water supply onto the pump or just
put the shower & bath onto it and bypass the pump for everything else.
I've now started laying the pipework for the new shower and have gone
for the first option. I guess I'm going to have to make sure all the
taps are properly closed each night.

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Default shower pump installation - anti gravity loop

"Kevin" wrote in message
ups.com...
It's a real PIA when you've gone to bed only to realise that the kitchen

tap
is dripping *very* slowly and that pump will trigger during the night if

you
don't go back downstairs..


Damn, I wish I knew this yesterday. I've been in two minds all week
over whether to put the entire hot water supply onto the pump or just
put the shower & bath onto it and bypass the pump for everything else.
I've now started laying the pipework for the new shower and have gone
for the first option. I guess I'm going to have to make sure all the
taps are properly closed each night.


Never mind, the family will enjoy listening to it when you're doing the
washing up downstairs.. ;-)

(I'm only half joking). Seriously, think about trying to deaden the noise
from this beast. Our whole house is powered
by this pump, not because I asked for it, but because it made the plumbers
life easier..

Paul


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Default shower pump installation - anti gravity loop

Final question (I hope) and I'm really just looking for reassurance
here
I've never used plastic pipe before, but I'm thinking that it might
make my life a lot easier with the connections from the Hot and Cold
tanks to the pump. I assume there are no particular problems with
mixing and matching copper and plastic pipe ? I'm thinking that I'll
use plastic on the inlets to the pump and copper on the outlet side,
simply because most of the pipework on that side is already in place
and in copper.
Any particular pitfalls I should look out for ?

Thanks.



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Default shower pump installation - anti gravity loop

For anyone interested, I fitted the pump over the weekend and so far
everything's great.

In the end, I decided not to fit the pump above the hot water cylinder,
instead I've effectively extended the bottom half of the airing
cupboard sideways to allow me to fit the pump next to the cylinder.
This meant I didn't need to worry about the AG loop and was able to
replace the existing fitting with a Warix flange rather than drilling a
new hole for an Essex flange.

The pump is raised off the floorboards with a few small lengths of 3x2
and sat on a piece of 8x1. It came with large foam pads which the pump
sit's on to minimise vibration and noise transferrence.

Never having used it before, I was a little wary of using plastic pipe,
but I found it extremely easy to use and to bend and had no problems
whatsoever with any of the connections. I think in future I will be
thinking plastic first as it was so easy to use.

I've put the hot water supply for the entire house onto the pump and
have noticed a fantastic improvement already. It used to take an age
to fill the bath but took no time at all last night. Not had a chance
to test the shower properly yet as I still need to fit the shower
enclosure(next weekends job), but at least I know I've no leaks.

Thanks to everyone who offered advise.

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Default shower pump installation - anti gravity loop

"Kevin" wrote in message
oups.com...
For anyone interested, I fitted the pump over the weekend and so far
everything's great.


LOL sounds like your is a lot quiter than ours! Glad it went well - nice to
see a followup, many can't be bothered.

Paul


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