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#1
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UK wiring diagrams domestic
Hello all, does anyone know where I can get some clear wiring diagrams
for a two way switch on a lighting circuit. I am building an extension and am going to do the first fix myself ( which i beleive i am allowed to do?) and then get someone part P to do the rest as its a kitchen. The ring mains will be no issue and the single lighting cct for upstairs will be no issue. what i am uncertain of is i need to switch one light in the kitchen from two locations and another light from just one. I know i'll need a 2G two way switch on one side and a 1G two way on't tother its just the wiring inbetween em thats a bit flummoxing!!! I'm no lemon ( electronic engineering) but havent done any domestic installations before. I take it i will need three and earth between the 2 way switch and then use the other switch for switching the "one location" light dunno if I'm making sense!!! also does anyone know the regs required for depth of channels in walls for cables and also what is required in the way of conduit/covers for the cables in the channels? Thanks in advance |
#2
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UK wiring diagrams domestic
wrote:
Hello all, does anyone know where I can get some clear wiring diagrams for a two way switch on a lighting circuit. I am building an extension and am going to do the first fix myself ( which i beleive i am allowed to do?) and then get someone part P to do the rest as its a kitchen. The ring mains will be no issue and the single lighting cct for upstairs will be no issue. what i am uncertain of is i need to switch one light in the kitchen from two locations and another light from just one. I know i'll need a 2G two way switch on one side and a 1G two way on't tother its just the wiring inbetween em thats a bit flummoxing!!! I'm no lemon ( electronic engineering) but havent done any domestic installations before. I take it i will need three and earth between the 2 way switch and then use the other switch for switching the "one location" light dunno if I'm making sense!!! also does anyone know the regs required for depth of channels in walls for cables and also what is required in the way of conduit/covers for the cables in the channels? Thanks in advance For circuit wiring see http://www.userview.co.uk/howto_light_fit.html |
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UK wiring diagrams domestic
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UK wiring diagrams domestic
In article .com,
wrote: Hello all, does anyone know where I can get some clear wiring diagrams for a two way switch on a lighting circuit. L1 L1 0===========0 0===========0============= Line | \ / | C 0================================O C \ / \ / 0===========0 0===========0============= Switch return L2 Optional L2 Intermediate -- *The older you get, the better you realize you were. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#6
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UK wiring diagrams domestic
David Hansen wrote: On 3 Sep 2006 10:59:11 -0700 someone who may be wrote this:- what i am uncertain of is i need to switch one light in the kitchen from two locations and another light from just one. //snip// I'm no lemon ( electronic engineering) but havent done any domestic installations before. It would seem you need to reorient yourself. There's a major change of emphasis in electrical theory when you switch to domestic 240V house wiring from electronics. In domestic cabling the cables may carry heavy currents & thus get warm & drop appreciable voltage over the run. Circuit calcs & routes have to allow for this so the cable does not get overhot (normal limt 70degC) & keep voltage drop to 4%. Likewise there's concern about fault conditions and protection and circuits have to cut out within designated limits of time and/or current. Unlike electronics domestic electrics doesn't usually concern itself with the characteristics of what is plugged into a circuit (beyond the current drawn) nor about inductances or capacitance - only resistive circuit elements are considered. The main focuses are on the contents of the Consumer Unit and the sizing and route of cables, unlike electronics where the major emphasis is on the characteristics of components. Suggest you look in your library for books by Whitfield and Scaddan: in the end it is likely you will want the IEE On-Site Guide. You would also do well to google this group for all manner of domestic electrical threads, there's a goldmine of information there. So far as B Regs & Part P go, specify in the plans submitted or B regs notice the elec work is involved then you are covered for whatever work you do yourself wherever it is. Good luck. |
#7
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UK wiring diagrams domestic
David Hansen wrote: On 3 Sep 2006 10:59:11 -0700 someone who may be wrote this:- what i am uncertain of is i need to switch one light in the kitchen from two locations and another light from just one. I know i'll need a 2G two way switch on one side and a 1G two way on't tother its just the wiring inbetween em thats a bit flummoxing!!! If you visit a big red shed and buy an individual light switch then these usually come in a plastic bag. In these plastic bags there is usually a folded up piece of paper, upon which there are some black pixels (usually called ink, the overall process is called printing). The pixels on the paper, think of them as a screen, tend to contain the information you are looking for:-) I'm no lemon ( electronic engineering) but havent done any domestic installations before. I hope you haven't done any industrial or commercial electrical installations before. No smiley there, deliberately. also does anyone know the regs required for depth of channels in walls for cables and also what is required in the way of conduit/covers for the cables in the channels? I suggest that you need to, as a minimum, read the information set out in http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/1.1.htm and far better purchase or borrow the book it refers to. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 I had stated NO installations, thats why I asked for advice |
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UK wiring diagrams domestic
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#9
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UK wiring diagrams domestic
wrote: David Hansen wrote: On 3 Sep 2006 10:59:11 -0700 someone who may be wrote this:- //snip// I had stated NO installations, thats why I asked for advice Regret I do not follow your drift, but it does rather sound as if you ARE doing some installation as you are talking about channelling into a wall. Judging from your initial post it might be advisable to pause a while for some basic study before you make a BIG expensive error due to transferring assumptions that you might make in electronics to domestic cabling & finding they don't apply. To put it another way, generally terms in the electrical equations/calculations which vanish in electronics don't in domestic cabling & vice versa. If you know your electronics there should be no trouble understanding the different flavour of electrical theory as applied to wiring. Take care. |
#10
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UK wiring diagrams domestic
jim wrote: wrote: David Hansen wrote: On 3 Sep 2006 10:59:11 -0700 someone who may be wrote this:- //snip// I had stated NO installations, thats why I asked for advice Regret I do not follow your drift, but it does rather sound as if you ARE doing some installation as you are talking about channelling into a wall. Judging from your initial post it might be advisable to pause a while for some basic study before you make a BIG expensive error due to transferring assumptions that you might make in electronics to domestic cabling & finding they don't apply. To put it another way, generally terms in the electrical equations/calculations which vanish in electronics don't in domestic cabling & vice versa. If you know your electronics there should be no trouble understanding the different flavour of electrical theory as applied to wiring. Take care. If I follow the guides for cable sizes with regards floor area and cable length and follow installation as per regulations I cant see where I can go wrong. I am only installing one consumer unit two ring mains ( one spur off one for an extractor hood) two lighting ccts one switching two ceiling roses and one switching one light two way and another one way. A cooker and hob, earth all pipework with 6mm? earth bond and straps the runs for the cooker and hob will be 5 metres so I take it I will use 16mm, the only thing I cant work out in my head is the double switch, but the book should sort that out. I would like to complete it myself as I enjoy the "DIY" thing, the plumbing will be fine as well as the extension of the heating system. |
#11
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UK wiring diagrams domestic
wrote:
I have ordered a book on the subject, and have been told on another group I can do all the work myself if I am submitting full plans (which I have) As long as the plans mention the wiring then you should be covered. You will need to find out what your local BCO is like, and at what stages (if any) he would like to inspect the work. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#12
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UK wiring diagrams domestic
wrote: jim wrote: wrote: David Hansen wrote: On 3 Sep 2006 10:59:11 -0700 someone who may be wrote this:- //snip// Take care. If I follow the guides for cable sizes with regards floor area and cable length and follow installation as per regulations I cant see where I can go wrong. I am only installing one consumer unit two ring mains ( one spur off one for an extractor hood) two lighting ccts one switching two ceiling roses and one switching one light two way and another one way. A cooker and hob, earth all pipework with 6mm? earth bond and straps the runs for the cooker and hob will be 5 metres so I take it I will use 16mm, the only thing I cant work out in my head is the double switch, but the book should sort that out. My point is that you'd be far better placed to undertake this work if you have a basic understanding of why the 'guides' are as they are. & if you know your electronics, it isn't rocket science. I would like to complete it myself as I enjoy the "DIY" thing, the plumbing will be fine as well as the extension of the heating system. No objection to you doing it all yourself, indeed quite the opposite as I'm right behind you, but please take a little time to understand the different flavour of domestic wiring over electronic circuits. There's all the advice you need available on this group. But if you end up having to correct or redo your work that will take far more time than you'd spend taking stock now. Replacing electric cable buried in a wall is a messy slow job (and the plaster finish never goes back flat like it was), plus throwing away wrong fittings & buying replacements is expensive. Your query re connecting light switches is, to me, just an indicator that some taking stock is needed. Electronics is full of multi-gang, multi-way, multi-pole switches which seldom occur in wiring. Same theory but a different way of looking at things. Your mention of 6mm2 earth bond (above) sounds out of kilter too. You'd be wise to google this group on the subject of bonding & earthing (which are different things and another major departure point between wiring practice & electronics). There's been a regular flow of threads on these subjects over the last 2 or 3 years. I'm also apprehensive as to where you have obtained your cable size and length recommendations [eg 5m x 16mm" cable?? - most new cookers are rated for a 30A circuit, so 6mm2 is usually sufficient & if not, 10mm2.]. If you are installing a consumer unit then technically it should have the disconnect time checked, though I'd be sure many new ones go in unchecked on the basis of them having been factory QC tested. There's several other things like earth leakage which should be checked as well. A quick scan of http://www.kevinboone.com/cableselec...20selection%22 might help you understand something of the issues involved: Please take stock before getting down to work. Good luck. .. |
#13
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UK wiring diagrams domestic
wrote:
jim wrote: wrote: David Hansen wrote: Judging from your initial post it might be advisable to pause a while for some basic study before you make a BIG expensive error due to transferring assumptions that you might make in electronics to domestic cabling & finding they don't apply. Take care. I would second that advice. If I follow the guides for cable sizes with regards floor area and cable length and follow installation as per regulations I cant see where I can go wrong. I am only installing one consumer unit two ring mains ( one spur off one for an extractor hood) two lighting ccts one switching two ceiling roses and one switching one light two way and another one way. A cooker and hob, earth all pipework with 6mm? earth bond and straps the runs for the cooker and hob will be 5 metres so I take it I will use 16mm, A few other things to consider as well: - Before you start you will need to do your calculations for cable sizes and the like. There are many things to take into consideration here such as diversity, voltage drop, grouping factors and the like. - Your new installation will need to comply with the Building Regs (parts L,M &P in particular) as well as the IEE Wiring Regs, but your BCO can help to guide you. - Sockets that could be used to supply outdoor equipment should be protected by a RCD. It is good practice to make sure the RCD tripping does not switch off other circuits where there could be an impact on safety. - You will need to purchase or hire the appropriate test gear, as most multi-meters are not up to the job. You should also look up how to fill in the associated paperwork. The forms tend to use a lot of abbreviations (such as TN-C-S, PFC, Ze, Zs, R1+R2) but a good guide to the subject will cover this. Incidentally your earthing conductor between the Board's earth terminal (or the earth electrode in TT systems) and your main earthing terminal should be 16mm. The main equipotential bonding conductors to the water and gas will be 10mm, and supplementary equipotential bonding conductors are normally 4mm. the only thing I cant work out in my head is the double switch, but the book should sort that out. A quick search in Google for "two way switching" should also produce results. I would like to complete it myself as I enjoy the "DIY" thing, the plumbing will be fine as well as the extension of the heating system. Very good. There's no reason why you should not do so. It will be a steep learning curve though. John -- John White, Electrical Contractor |
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and three way wiring here- http://www.ultimatehandyman.co.uk/th...y_lighting.htm Just incase |
#15
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UK wiring diagrams domestic
On 3 Sep 2006 15:01:35 -0700 someone who may be
wrote this:- If I follow the guides for cable sizes with regards floor area and cable length and follow installation as per regulations I cant see where I can go wrong. Then you have a very high opinion of your skills. The question about two-way switching indicates that they might not be as high as you think. Those of us who have done such wiring for a few decades know all sorts of ways we can go wrong. However, inspection and testing usually spots where we have gone wrong before there is a bang or fire. I would like to complete it myself as I enjoy the "DIY" thing, the plumbing will be fine as well as the extension of the heating system. I suspect that most of those on this group would like to help, in a small way, you get this satisfaction. However, this sort of electricity is not to be trifled with. While it is not as bad as say 11,000V it still has bite. Think of a large power station and then ponder on the fact that your meter tails are connected to that large power station. If something goes wrong at your consumer unit then it is likely that many thousands of amps will flow, hopefully not for long but still for long enough for things to get somewhat warm. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
#16
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UK wiring diagrams domestic
David Hansen wrote: On 3 Sep 2006 15:01:35 -0700 someone who may be wrote this:- If I follow the guides for cable sizes with regards floor area and cable length and follow installation as per regulations I cant see where I can go wrong. Then you have a very high opinion of your skills. The question about two-way switching indicates that they might not be as high as you think. Those of us who have done such wiring for a few decades know all sorts of ways we can go wrong. However, inspection and testing usually spots where we have gone wrong before there is a bang or fire. I would like to complete it myself as I enjoy the "DIY" thing, the plumbing will be fine as well as the extension of the heating system. I suspect that most of those on this group would like to help, in a small way, you get this satisfaction. However, this sort of electricity is not to be trifled with. While it is not as bad as say 11,000V it still has bite. Think of a large power station and then ponder on the fact that your meter tails are connected to that large power station. If something goes wrong at your consumer unit then it is likely that many thousands of amps will flow, hopefully not for long but still for long enough for things to get somewhat warm. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 Thanks, I have been told that if the wiring is on plan and i do the work myself and its inspected as per BCO, if there is need for testing then BC carry this out and have to bear the expense. |
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UK wiring diagrams domestic
wrote:
Thanks, I have been told that if the wiring is on plan and i do the work myself and its inspected as per BCO, if there is need for testing then BC carry this out and have to bear the expense. It will depend on the attitude of the BCO and the department in general. They should not in theory pass on additional costs, but that does not stop councils from having a policy of doing so. If you can convince your BCO that you know what you are doing, he may be happy to let you do all the work and testing. This obviously works in you favour since you won't need to stop work to allow inspections etc and can just get on with the job. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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UK wiring diagrams domestic
John White wrote:
- Your new installation will need to comply with the Building Regs (parts L,M &P in particular) as well as the IEE Wiring Regs, but your BCO can help to guide you. If my understanding is correct, Part M will probably not have that much impact when extending an existing property (as opposed to a new build). As long as the work you do does not make it any worse than it was from a disabled access point of view. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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UK wiring diagrams domestic
Just check that the BCO will give a completion certificate and not say
(as some are) that it's fine for you to do the work, but they have no one qualified to inspect and so won't give a completion certificate. Good easy book is the electrical section in Jackson - Day (Collins) which you used to be able to buy as a separate book. Not sure if it's updated for new colours but just write the conversion on the relevant pages to make sure you get it right. (I've got a degree in electrical engineering and understand all the theory, but I can still never remember what a 2-way lighting circuit looks like and the info on the leaflet in the package is not user-friendly.) If you add the on-site guide you should be able to do everything provided you don't go outside the table in the on-site guide. Then all you need to do calculations wise is to check cable ratings given cable derating for insulation and running together. If you stay inside the table then you can be pretty confident on voltage drop and disconnection times. Fash |
#20
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UK wiring diagrams domestic
John Rumm wrote:
John White wrote: - Your new installation will need to comply with the Building Regs (parts L,M &P in particular) as well as the IEE Wiring Regs, but your BCO can help to guide you. If my understanding is correct, Part M will probably not have that much impact when extending an existing property (as opposed to a new build). As long as the work you do does not make it any worse than it was from a disabled access point of view. That's always how I've read it as well. In fact I would argue that the wording of Section 8 is so broad that it is difficult NOT to comply with it. I only mention it as one local BCO always raises the subject when he is brought in for Part P. John -- John White, Electrical Contractor |
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UK wiring diagrams domestic
Fash wrote: Just check that the BCO will give a completion certificate and not say (as some are) that it's fine for you to do the work, but they have no one qualified to inspect and so won't give a completion certificate. Good easy book is the electrical section in Jackson - Day (Collins) which you used to be able to buy as a separate book. Not sure if it's updated for new colours but just write the conversion on the relevant pages to make sure you get it right. (I've got a degree in electrical engineering and understand all the theory, but I can still never remember what a 2-way lighting circuit looks like and the info on the leaflet in the package is not user-friendly.) If you add the on-site guide you should be able to do everything provided you don't go outside the table in the on-site guide. Then all you need to do calculations wise is to check cable ratings given cable derating for insulation and running together. If you stay inside the table then you can be pretty confident on voltage drop and disconnection times. Fash Cheers, I ordered the Collins book last night so will make an evening "light" reading when it comes (pardon the pun) have wall chaser and back box sinker in hand and have found out building regs as regards drilling holes in joists. The only point I need to clarify on building regs is where the joist is flush with the wall and I need to run a cable to the wall if I am allowed to use a notch ( i have read the allowable amount per joist size) and use a nail plate over the notch for cable protection? |
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UK wiring diagrams domestic
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UK wiring diagrams domestic
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#24
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UK wiring diagrams domestic
John White wrote: wrote: Cheers, I ordered the Collins book last night so will make an evening "light" reading when it comes (pardon the pun) have wall chaser and back box sinker in hand and have found out building regs as regards drilling holes in joists. The only point I need to clarify on building regs is where the joist is flush with the wall and I need to run a cable to the wall if I am allowed to use a notch ( i have read the allowable amount per joist size) and use a nail plate over the notch for cable protection? I would normally drill through the centre of the joist. You can usually make a big enough channel in the plaster and fabric of the wall to do this. I use a good auger to drill most of the hole and then an old one to complete it. That way if the auger strikes the wall fabric and blunts itself then it is not much of a loss. Notching and plating a joist is usually a last resort. John -- John White, Electrical Contractor Hi John, I have noticed a problem, the centres of the joists are too close together to allow acces with a drill !! I take it drilling at an angle is a no go, as compared to drilling at 90. Is the other option to take the cables around the rooms from a 150mm band around the top and corners? or will a right angled drill adaptor do the trick? cheers |
#25
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UK wiring diagrams domestic
wrote:
Hi John, I have noticed a problem, the centres of the joists are too close together to allow acces with a drill !! I take it drilling at an angle is a no go, as compared to drilling at 90. Is the other option to take the cables around the rooms from a 150mm band around the top and corners? or will a right angled drill adaptor do the trick? Well I don't like drill adaptors so I use one of these: http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=87121 With these auger bits: http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=14026 http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=12082 Which will fit in most situations. Failing that use one of these bits, aim for just above the joist centre and get the drill as close to the floor as possible: http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=21989 John -- John White, Electrical Contractor |
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UK wiring diagrams domestic
"John White" wrote in message ... wrote: Hi John, I have noticed a problem, the centres of the joists are too close together to allow acces with a drill !! I take it drilling at an angle is a no go, as compared to drilling at 90. Is the other option to take the cables around the rooms from a 150mm band around the top and corners? or will a right angled drill adaptor do the trick? Well I don't like drill adaptors so I use one of these: http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=87121 With these auger bits: http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=14026 http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=12082 Which will fit in most situations. For anybody who doesn't want the expense of a right angled drill, a 9mm hex socket will drive the Screwfix stubby augers, or for really tight situations a 9mm ratchet ring spanner is ideal. Works great in softwood, not tried it in oak though. Jim A |
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UK wiring diagrams domestic
wrote:
Hi John, I have noticed a problem, the centres of the joists are too close together to allow acces with a drill !! I take it drilling at an angle is a no go, as compared to drilling at 90. Buy a cheap[1] spade bit, and hacksaw it down so that it is just a tad over joist thickness. In an odinary mains drill or a cordless drill it normally then fits between the joists. [1] You could also use a decent quality spade bit, but then you may need an angle grinder to cut off the shank as the metal will be harder! -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#28
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UK wiring diagrams domestic
John White wrote: wrote: Hi John, I have noticed a problem, the centres of the joists are too close together to allow acces with a drill !! I take it drilling at an angle is a no go, as compared to drilling at 90. Is the other option to take the cables around the rooms from a 150mm band around the top and corners? or will a right angled drill adaptor do the trick? Well I don't like drill adaptors so I use one of these: http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=87121 With these auger bits: http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=14026 http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=12082 Which will fit in most situations. Cheers - another order to screfix on the way !!!! Failing that use one of these bits, aim for just above the joist centre and get the drill as close to the floor as possible: http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=21989 John -- John White, Electrical Contractor |
#29
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UK wiring diagrams domestic
John Rumm wrote: wrote: Hi John, I have noticed a problem, the centres of the joists are too close together to allow acces with a drill !! I take it drilling at an angle is a no go, as compared to drilling at 90. Buy a cheap[1] spade bit, and hacksaw it down so that it is just a tad over joist thickness. In an odinary mains drill or a cordless drill it normally then fits between the joists. [1] You could also use a decent quality spade bit, but then you may need an angle grinder to cut off the shank as the metal will be harder! -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ Nice idea ! I'll give that a go first, definateley the cheaper option :-) |
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