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Default UK wiring diagrams domestic

Hello all, does anyone know where I can get some clear wiring diagrams
for a two way switch on a lighting circuit.
I am building an extension and am going to do the first fix myself (
which i beleive i am allowed to do?) and then get someone part P to do
the rest as its a kitchen.

The ring mains will be no issue and the single lighting cct for
upstairs will be no issue.


what i am uncertain of is i need to switch one light in the kitchen
from two locations and another light from just one. I know i'll need a
2G two way switch on one side and a 1G two way on't tother its just the

wiring inbetween em thats a bit flummoxing!!! I'm no lemon ( electronic

engineering) but havent done any domestic installations before.
I take it i will need three and earth between the 2 way switch and
then use the other switch for switching the "one location" light


dunno if I'm making sense!!!


also does anyone know the regs required for depth of channels in walls
for cables and also what is required in the way of conduit/covers for
the cables in the channels?


Thanks in advance

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Default UK wiring diagrams domestic

wrote:
Hello all, does anyone know where I can get some clear wiring diagrams
for a two way switch on a lighting circuit.
I am building an extension and am going to do the first fix myself (
which i beleive i am allowed to do?) and then get someone part P to do
the rest as its a kitchen.

The ring mains will be no issue and the single lighting cct for
upstairs will be no issue.


what i am uncertain of is i need to switch one light in the kitchen
from two locations and another light from just one. I know i'll need a
2G two way switch on one side and a 1G two way on't tother its just the

wiring inbetween em thats a bit flummoxing!!! I'm no lemon ( electronic

engineering) but havent done any domestic installations before.
I take it i will need three and earth between the 2 way switch and
then use the other switch for switching the "one location" light


dunno if I'm making sense!!!


also does anyone know the regs required for depth of channels in walls
for cables and also what is required in the way of conduit/covers for
the cables in the channels?


Thanks in advance


For circuit wiring see http://www.userview.co.uk/howto_light_fit.html


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Default UK wiring diagrams domestic

On 2006-09-03 18:59:11 +0100, said:

Hello all, does anyone know where I can get some clear wiring diagrams
for a two way switch on a lighting circuit.
I am building an extension and am going to do the first fix myself (
which i beleive i am allowed to do?) and then get someone part P to do
the rest as its a kitchen.


You can do all of it provided that it is included in the scope for the
building control application and is inspected afterwards. You are
having to pay for this anyway, so you might as well make the most of it
and DIY the work.


The ring mains will be no issue and the single lighting cct for
upstairs will be no issue.


what i am uncertain of is i need to switch one light in the kitchen
from two locations and another light from just one. I know i'll need a
2G two way switch on one side and a 1G two way on't tother its just the

wiring inbetween em thats a bit flummoxing!!! I'm no lemon ( electronic

engineering) but havent done any domestic installations before.
I take it i will need three and earth between the 2 way switch and
then use the other switch for switching the "one location" light


dunno if I'm making sense!!!


There are several different ways to do this depending on how you want
the wiring to run.

The most common is to run the lighting circuit between the ceiling
fittings and to run a twin+earth cable to the switch.

However, for this case, another option is to run a three way plus earth
to the 2G switch from the first light fitting and carry neutral as
well. Wire the unswitched live to the common of both switches. Run
another three way plus earth to the second 1G 2way switch carrying the
two connectiions from the 2W switch plus neutral. Then connect the two
switched connections to this switch. The common of this second switch
will now form the switched live to the light fitting and you can carry
through the neutral and earth.







also does anyone know the regs required for depth of channels in walls
for cables and also what is required in the way of conduit/covers for
the cables in the channels?


You can avoid this issue completely by adhering to some cable routing rules.

- Cables may be run vertically or horizontally from a wiring accesory
(e.g. switch).

- Cables may also be run in a 150mm wide band from the corner of a
room, the top of a wall but not the bottom of a wall (i.e. not behind
skirtings.







Thanks in advance



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Default UK wiring diagrams domestic

On 3 Sep 2006 10:59:11 -0700 someone who may be
wrote this:-

what i am uncertain of is i need to switch one light in the kitchen
from two locations and another light from just one. I know i'll need a
2G two way switch on one side and a 1G two way on't tother its just the

wiring inbetween em thats a bit flummoxing!!!


If you visit a big red shed and buy an individual light switch then
these usually come in a plastic bag. In these plastic bags there is
usually a folded up piece of paper, upon which there are some black
pixels (usually called ink, the overall process is called printing).
The pixels on the paper, think of them as a screen, tend to contain
the information you are looking for:-)

I'm no lemon ( electronic
engineering) but havent done any domestic installations before.


I hope you haven't done any industrial or commercial electrical
installations before. No smiley there, deliberately.

also does anyone know the regs required for depth of channels in walls
for cables and also what is required in the way of conduit/covers for
the cables in the channels?


I suggest that you need to, as a minimum, read the information set
out in
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/1.1.htm and far better
purchase or borrow the book it refers to.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54
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Default UK wiring diagrams domestic

In article .com,
wrote:
Hello all, does anyone know where I can get some clear wiring diagrams
for a two way switch on a lighting circuit.





L1 L1
0===========0 0===========0============= Line
| \ / |
C 0================================O C
\ / \ /
0===========0 0===========0============= Switch return
L2 Optional L2
Intermediate

--
*The older you get, the better you realize you were.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


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Default UK wiring diagrams domestic


David Hansen wrote:
On 3 Sep 2006 10:59:11 -0700 someone who may be
wrote this:-

what i am uncertain of is i need to switch one light in the kitchen
from two locations and another light from just one.


//snip//

I'm no lemon ( electronic
engineering) but havent done any domestic installations before.


It would seem you need to reorient yourself. There's a major change of
emphasis in electrical theory when you switch to domestic 240V house
wiring from electronics. In domestic cabling the cables may carry
heavy currents & thus get warm & drop appreciable voltage over the run.
Circuit calcs & routes have to allow for this so the cable does not
get overhot (normal limt 70degC) & keep voltage drop to 4%. Likewise
there's concern about fault conditions and protection and circuits have
to cut out within designated limits of time and/or current.

Unlike electronics domestic electrics doesn't usually concern itself
with the characteristics of what is plugged into a circuit (beyond the
current drawn) nor about inductances or capacitance - only resistive
circuit elements are considered. The main focuses are on the contents
of the Consumer Unit and the sizing and route of cables, unlike
electronics where the major emphasis is on the characteristics of
components.

Suggest you look in your library for books by Whitfield and Scaddan: in
the end it is likely you will want the IEE On-Site Guide.

You would also do well to google this group for all manner of domestic
electrical threads, there's a goldmine of information there.

So far as B Regs & Part P go, specify in the plans submitted or B regs
notice the elec work is involved then you are covered for whatever work
you do yourself wherever it is.

Good luck.

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Default UK wiring diagrams domestic


David Hansen wrote:
On 3 Sep 2006 10:59:11 -0700 someone who may be
wrote this:-

what i am uncertain of is i need to switch one light in the kitchen
from two locations and another light from just one. I know i'll need a
2G two way switch on one side and a 1G two way on't tother its just the

wiring inbetween em thats a bit flummoxing!!!


If you visit a big red shed and buy an individual light switch then
these usually come in a plastic bag. In these plastic bags there is
usually a folded up piece of paper, upon which there are some black
pixels (usually called ink, the overall process is called printing).
The pixels on the paper, think of them as a screen, tend to contain
the information you are looking for:-)

I'm no lemon ( electronic
engineering) but havent done any domestic installations before.


I hope you haven't done any industrial or commercial electrical
installations before. No smiley there, deliberately.

also does anyone know the regs required for depth of channels in walls
for cables and also what is required in the way of conduit/covers for
the cables in the channels?


I suggest that you need to, as a minimum, read the information set
out in
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/1.1.htm and far better
purchase or borrow the book it refers to.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54


I had stated NO installations, thats why I asked for advice

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Default UK wiring diagrams domestic


jim wrote:
wrote:
David Hansen wrote:
On 3 Sep 2006 10:59:11 -0700 someone who may be

wrote this:-

//snip//


I had stated NO installations, thats why I asked for advice


Regret I do not follow your drift, but it does rather sound as if you
ARE doing some installation as you are talking about channelling into a
wall.

Judging from your initial post it might be advisable to pause a while
for some basic study before you make a BIG expensive error due to
transferring assumptions that you might make in electronics to domestic
cabling & finding they don't apply.

To put it another way, generally terms in the electrical
equations/calculations which vanish in electronics don't in domestic
cabling & vice versa.

If you know your electronics there should be no trouble understanding
the different flavour of electrical theory as applied to wiring.

Take care.


If I follow the guides for cable sizes with regards floor area and
cable length and follow installation as per regulations I cant see
where I can go wrong. I am only installing one consumer unit two ring
mains ( one spur off one for an extractor hood) two lighting ccts one
switching two ceiling roses and one switching one light two way and
another one way.
A cooker and hob, earth all pipework with 6mm? earth bond and straps
the runs for the cooker and hob will be 5 metres so I take it I will
use 16mm,

the only thing I cant work out in my head is the double switch, but
the book should sort that out.

I would like to complete it myself as I enjoy the "DIY" thing, the
plumbing will be fine as well as the extension of the heating system.



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Default UK wiring diagrams domestic


wrote:
jim wrote:
wrote:
David Hansen wrote:
On 3 Sep 2006 10:59:11 -0700 someone who may be

wrote this:-

//snip//

Take care.


If I follow the guides for cable sizes with regards floor area and
cable length and follow installation as per regulations I cant see
where I can go wrong. I am only installing one consumer unit two ring
mains ( one spur off one for an extractor hood) two lighting ccts one
switching two ceiling roses and one switching one light two way and
another one way.
A cooker and hob, earth all pipework with 6mm? earth bond and straps
the runs for the cooker and hob will be 5 metres so I take it I will
use 16mm,

the only thing I cant work out in my head is the double switch, but
the book should sort that out.




My point is that you'd be far better placed to undertake this work if
you have a basic understanding of why the 'guides' are as they are. &
if you know your electronics, it isn't rocket science.

I would like to complete it myself as I enjoy the "DIY" thing, the
plumbing will be fine as well as the extension of the heating system.


No objection to you doing it all yourself, indeed quite the opposite as
I'm right behind you, but please take a little time to understand the
different flavour of domestic wiring over electronic circuits.

There's all the advice you need available on this group.

But if you end up having to correct or redo your work that will take
far more time than you'd spend taking stock now. Replacing electric
cable buried in a wall is a messy slow job (and the plaster finish
never goes back flat like it was), plus throwing away wrong fittings &
buying replacements is expensive.

Your query re connecting light switches is, to me, just an indicator
that some taking stock is needed. Electronics is full of multi-gang,
multi-way, multi-pole switches which seldom occur in wiring. Same
theory but a different way of looking at things.

Your mention of 6mm2 earth bond (above) sounds out of kilter too. You'd
be wise to google this group on the subject of bonding & earthing
(which are different things and another major departure point between
wiring practice & electronics). There's been a regular flow of threads
on these subjects over the last 2 or 3 years.

I'm also apprehensive as to where you have obtained your cable size and
length recommendations [eg 5m x 16mm" cable?? - most new cookers are
rated for a 30A circuit, so 6mm2 is usually sufficient & if not,
10mm2.].

If you are installing a consumer unit then technically it should have
the disconnect time checked, though I'd be sure many new ones go in
unchecked on the basis of them having been factory QC tested. There's
several other things like earth leakage which should be checked as
well.

A quick scan of

http://www.kevinboone.com/cableselec...20selection%22

might help you understand something of the issues involved:

Please take stock before getting down to work.

Good luck.

..

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wrote:

jim wrote:
wrote:
David Hansen wrote:


Judging from your initial post it might be advisable to pause a while
for some basic study before you make a BIG expensive error due to
transferring assumptions that you might make in electronics to domestic
cabling & finding they don't apply.


Take care.


I would second that advice.

If I follow the guides for cable sizes with regards floor area and
cable length and follow installation as per regulations I cant see
where I can go wrong. I am only installing one consumer unit two ring
mains ( one spur off one for an extractor hood) two lighting ccts one
switching two ceiling roses and one switching one light two way and
another one way.
A cooker and hob, earth all pipework with 6mm? earth bond and straps
the runs for the cooker and hob will be 5 metres so I take it I will
use 16mm,


A few other things to consider as well:

- Before you start you will need to do your calculations for cable
sizes and the like. There are many things to take into consideration
here such as diversity, voltage drop, grouping factors and the like.

- Your new installation will need to comply with the Building Regs
(parts L,M &P in particular) as well as the IEE Wiring Regs, but your
BCO can help to guide you.

- Sockets that could be used to supply outdoor equipment should be
protected by a RCD. It is good practice to make sure the RCD tripping
does not switch off other circuits where there could be an impact on
safety.

- You will need to purchase or hire the appropriate test gear, as most
multi-meters are not up to the job. You should also look up how to
fill in the associated paperwork. The forms tend to use a lot of
abbreviations (such as TN-C-S, PFC, Ze, Zs, R1+R2) but a good guide to
the subject will cover this.

Incidentally your earthing conductor between the Board's earth
terminal (or the earth electrode in TT systems) and your main earthing
terminal should be 16mm. The main equipotential bonding conductors to
the water and gas will be 10mm, and supplementary equipotential
bonding conductors are normally 4mm.

the only thing I cant work out in my head is the double switch, but
the book should sort that out.


A quick search in Google for "two way switching" should also produce
results.

I would like to complete it myself as I enjoy the "DIY" thing, the
plumbing will be fine as well as the extension of the heating system.


Very good. There's no reason why you should not do so. It will be a
steep learning curve though.

John
--
John White,
Electrical Contractor
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by
jim wrote:
wrote:
David Hansen wrote:
On 3 Sep 2006 10:59:11 -0700 someone who may be

wrote this:-

//snip//


I had stated NO installations, thats why I asked for advice


Regret I do not follow your drift, but it does rather sound as if you
ARE doing some installation as you are talking about channelling into a
wall.

Judging from your initial post it might be advisable to pause a while
for some basic study before you make a BIG expensive error due to
transferring assumptions that you might make in electronics to domestic
cabling & finding they don't apply.

To put it another way, generally terms in the electrical
equations/calculations which vanish in electronics don't in domestic
cabling & vice versa.

If you know your electronics there should be no trouble understanding
the different flavour of electrical theory as applied to wiring.

Take care.


If I follow the guides for cable sizes with regards floor area and
cable length and follow installation as per regulations I cant see
where I can go wrong. I am only installing one consumer unit two ring
mains ( one spur off one for an extractor hood) two lighting ccts one
switching two ceiling roses and one switching one light two way and
another one way.
A cooker and hob, earth all pipework with 6mm? earth bond and straps
the runs for the cooker and hob will be 5 metres so I take it I will
use 16mm,

the only thing I cant work out in my head is the double switch, but
the book should sort that out.

I would like to complete it myself as I enjoy the "DIY" thing, the
plumbing will be fine as well as the extension of the heating system.
Two way wiring can be found here- http://www.ultimatehandyman.co.uk/two_way_lighting.htm

and three way wiring here- http://www.ultimatehandyman.co.uk/th...y_lighting.htm

Just incase
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On 3 Sep 2006 15:01:35 -0700 someone who may be
wrote this:-

If I follow the guides for cable sizes with regards floor area and
cable length and follow installation as per regulations I cant see
where I can go wrong.


Then you have a very high opinion of your skills. The question about
two-way switching indicates that they might not be as high as you
think.

Those of us who have done such wiring for a few decades know all
sorts of ways we can go wrong. However, inspection and testing
usually spots where we have gone wrong before there is a bang or
fire.

I would like to complete it myself as I enjoy the "DIY" thing, the
plumbing will be fine as well as the extension of the heating system.


I suspect that most of those on this group would like to help, in a
small way, you get this satisfaction. However, this sort of
electricity is not to be trifled with. While it is not as bad as say
11,000V it still has bite. Think of a large power station and then
ponder on the fact that your meter tails are connected to that large
power station. If something goes wrong at your consumer unit then it
is likely that many thousands of amps will flow, hopefully not for
long but still for long enough for things to get somewhat warm.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54


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David Hansen wrote:
On 3 Sep 2006 15:01:35 -0700 someone who may be
wrote this:-

If I follow the guides for cable sizes with regards floor area and
cable length and follow installation as per regulations I cant see
where I can go wrong.


Then you have a very high opinion of your skills. The question about
two-way switching indicates that they might not be as high as you
think.

Those of us who have done such wiring for a few decades know all
sorts of ways we can go wrong. However, inspection and testing
usually spots where we have gone wrong before there is a bang or
fire.

I would like to complete it myself as I enjoy the "DIY" thing, the
plumbing will be fine as well as the extension of the heating system.


I suspect that most of those on this group would like to help, in a
small way, you get this satisfaction. However, this sort of
electricity is not to be trifled with. While it is not as bad as say
11,000V it still has bite. Think of a large power station and then
ponder on the fact that your meter tails are connected to that large
power station. If something goes wrong at your consumer unit then it
is likely that many thousands of amps will flow, hopefully not for
long but still for long enough for things to get somewhat warm.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54




Thanks, I have been told that if the wiring is on plan and i do the
work myself and its inspected as per BCO, if there is need for testing
then BC carry this out and have to bear the expense.

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Default UK wiring diagrams domestic

John White wrote:

- Your new installation will need to comply with the Building Regs
(parts L,M &P in particular) as well as the IEE Wiring Regs, but your
BCO can help to guide you.


If my understanding is correct, Part M will probably not have that much
impact when extending an existing property (as opposed to a new build).
As long as the work you do does not make it any worse than it was from a
disabled access point of view.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/
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Just check that the BCO will give a completion certificate and not say
(as some are) that it's fine for you to do the work, but they have no
one qualified to inspect and so won't give a completion certificate.

Good easy book is the electrical section in Jackson - Day (Collins)
which you used to be able to buy as a separate book. Not sure if it's
updated for new colours but just write the conversion on the relevant
pages to make sure you get it right. (I've got a degree in electrical
engineering and understand all the theory, but I can still never
remember what a 2-way lighting circuit looks like and the info on the
leaflet in the package is not user-friendly.) If you add the on-site
guide you should be able to do everything provided you don't go outside
the table in the on-site guide. Then all you need to do calculations
wise is to check cable ratings given cable derating for insulation and
running together. If you stay inside the table then you can be pretty
confident on voltage drop and disconnection times.

Fash

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John Rumm wrote:

John White wrote:

- Your new installation will need to comply with the Building Regs
(parts L,M &P in particular) as well as the IEE Wiring Regs, but your
BCO can help to guide you.


If my understanding is correct, Part M will probably not have that much
impact when extending an existing property (as opposed to a new build).
As long as the work you do does not make it any worse than it was from a
disabled access point of view.


That's always how I've read it as well. In fact I would argue that the
wording of Section 8 is so broad that it is difficult NOT to comply
with it.

I only mention it as one local BCO always raises the subject when he
is brought in for Part P.

John
--
John White,
Electrical Contractor


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Fash wrote:
Just check that the BCO will give a completion certificate and not say
(as some are) that it's fine for you to do the work, but they have no
one qualified to inspect and so won't give a completion certificate.

Good easy book is the electrical section in Jackson - Day (Collins)
which you used to be able to buy as a separate book. Not sure if it's
updated for new colours but just write the conversion on the relevant
pages to make sure you get it right. (I've got a degree in electrical
engineering and understand all the theory, but I can still never
remember what a 2-way lighting circuit looks like and the info on the
leaflet in the package is not user-friendly.) If you add the on-site
guide you should be able to do everything provided you don't go outside
the table in the on-site guide. Then all you need to do calculations
wise is to check cable ratings given cable derating for insulation and
running together. If you stay inside the table then you can be pretty
confident on voltage drop and disconnection times.

Fash


Cheers, I ordered the Collins book last night so will make an evening
"light" reading when it comes (pardon the pun) have wall chaser and
back box sinker in hand and have found out building regs as regards
drilling holes in joists. The only point I need to clarify on building
regs is where the joist is flush with the wall and I need to run a
cable to the wall if I am allowed to use a notch ( i have read the
allowable amount per joist size) and use a nail plate over the notch
for cable protection?

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"John White" wrote in message
...
wrote:

Hi John, I have noticed a problem, the centres of the joists are too
close together to allow acces with a drill !! I take it drilling at an
angle is a no go, as compared to drilling at 90.
Is the other option to take the cables around the rooms from a 150mm
band around the top and corners? or will a right angled drill adaptor
do the trick?


Well I don't like drill adaptors so I use one of these:
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=87121

With these auger bits:
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=14026
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=12082

Which will fit in most situations.


For anybody who doesn't want the expense of a right angled drill, a 9mm hex
socket will drive the Screwfix stubby augers, or for really tight situations
a 9mm ratchet ring spanner is ideal. Works great in softwood, not tried it
in oak though.

Jim A


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