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Default No felt

I have looked at a terraced house and there is no felt under the tiles.
A couple of slates need replacing and others renailing. Does felt
have to be there? Would a building society refuse a mortgage on the
place if no felt under the tiles?

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Posted to uk.d-i-y
 
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Default No felt

wrote:
I have looked at a terraced house and there is no felt under the tiles.
A couple of slates need replacing and others renailing. Does felt
have to be there? Would a building society refuse a mortgage on the
place if no felt under the tiles?


Its quite normal. It means the roof is old, as felt has been used for
many years now. Practically it means there is no backup waterproof
layer in case of slate loss. It is also a caution to check the
condition of the roof, as some of these old roofs are heading for
reslating time. Just look to see how many slates have been refixed with
lead tingles. If the roof is liberally peppered with them, you can
expect more slate to fall each year, ie time to reslate.

NT

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Default No felt


wrote:
wrote:
I have looked at a terraced house and there is no felt under the tiles.
A couple of slates need replacing and others renailing. Does felt
have to be there? Would a building society refuse a mortgage on the
place if no felt under the tiles?


Its quite normal. It means the roof is old, as felt has been used for
many years now. Practically it means there is no backup waterproof
layer in case of slate loss. It is also a caution to check the
condition of the roof, as some of these old roofs are heading for
reslating time. Just look to see how many slates have been refixed with
lead tingles. If the roof is liberally peppered with them, you can
expect more slate to fall each year, ie time to reslate.

NT


Thanks. When you say "It's quite normal", do you mean to refuse a
mortgage because of no felt?

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Andy Hall
 
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Default No felt

On Thu, 1 Jun 2006 01:22:56 +0100, wrote
(in article . com):


wrote:
wrote:
I have looked at a terraced house and there is no felt under the tiles.
A couple of slates need replacing and others renailing. Does felt
have to be there? Would a building society refuse a mortgage on the
place if no felt under the tiles?


Its quite normal. It means the roof is old, as felt has been used for
many years now. Practically it means there is no backup waterproof
layer in case of slate loss. It is also a caution to check the
condition of the roof, as some of these old roofs are heading for
reslating time. Just look to see how many slates have been refixed with
lead tingles. If the roof is liberally peppered with them, you can
expect more slate to fall each year, ie time to reslate.

NT


Thanks. When you say "It's quite normal", do you mean to refuse a
mortgage because of no felt?


There are large numbers of turn of the (19th-20th) century houses around just
like this and they certainly change hands with mortgages.

A mortgage valuation survey might pick up a roof in really poor condition as
needing to be re-roofed at some point. However, deterioration is gradual
with slates slipping as nails eventually give way. It would be unusual for
this to all happen at once and mean immediate replacement. So this should
not mean anything more than a reduction in valuation assuming that the
lenders have money to hand out and it seems that they are falling over
themselves to do that.

However, having seen these in the past, I would look carefully in the roof
space and from outside at two aspects.

- Around any chimney stacks there will be either a lead flashing or mortar
benching from the stack onto the slates. Look around the timbers inside
for signs of water penetration or timber decay - typically wet rot and
perhaps weevil damage. From the outside with binoculars take a look at the
condition of the flashing/benching.

- If there is a rear extension, there will usually be a valley where the
roofs join, normally lead. Again look at as much of the timbers inside as
you can and the condition from the outside.

In both cases, look for signs of bodged repairs with painted on sealers.

The one to *really* watch out for is spray foam on the underside of the
slates. It's about the worst thing that can be done because it stops
ventilation and traps water. Not a good recipe. The solutions would be to
budget for a reroof or walk away.

If the house is otherwise in good condition, you could simply factor in
re-roofing costs into the financial decision.


  #5   Report Post  
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Ian White
 
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Default No felt

Andy Hall wrote:

- Around any chimney stacks there will be either a lead flashing or
mortar benching from the stack onto the slates. Look around the
timbers inside for signs of water penetration or timber decay -
typically wet rot and perhaps weevil damage. From the outside with
binoculars take a look at the condition of the flashing/benching.

- If there is a rear extension, there will usually be a valley where
the roofs join, normally lead. Again look at as much of the timbers
inside as you can and the condition from the outside.


If you can, look in complete darkness for light shining in from outside.
Then look very carefully with a strong light for signs that rain has
blown in - or worse still, powder snow - at any time in the past. Don't
forget to check underneath the more recent loft insulation.

And while you're there, check the topside of the lath and plaster
ceilings.

Typically, you can get away with an unfelted roof for years, but then a
storm comes in from an unusual direction and suddenly you have a
problem. (Been there, shovelling snow into a kitchen bin, quick before
it melted into the loft insulation. Roof was stripped and felted the
next spring - money well spent.)


--
Ian White


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nightjar
 
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Default No felt


wrote in message
oups.com...
I have looked at a terraced house and there is no felt under the tiles.
A couple of slates need replacing and others renailing. Does felt
have to be there? Would a building society refuse a mortgage on the
place if no felt under the tiles?


I don't think I have ever lived in a house with felt under either the slates
or the tiles (they are different forms of roof covering), apart from one
with a small extension that I had re-roofed. Real slate is not much used in
modern properties and the usual method of sealing the gaps used to be
torching - mortar infills inside the roof. However, that has usually fallen
off by now, producing some really well-ventilated roof spaces. My current
house, built in 1931, has tiles laid directly onto on close-fitting wooden
boards.

Colin Bignell


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Chris Bacon
 
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Default No felt

timegoesby wrote:
I have looked at a terraced house and there is no felt under the tiles.
A couple of slates need replacing and others renailing. Does felt
have to be there? Would a building society refuse a mortgage on the
place if no felt under the tiles?


The felt does not have to be there, and it's not so long ago that
it wasn't used. The B.S. or bank will be mostly interested in
whether the house is worth the money, so that their loan is safe.
They may make it a condition of the loan that you repair the roof,
so that their investment doesn't deteriorate.

It sounds as if the roof is well on the way to needing re-doing.
For a terraced house, this shouldn't be very expensive, make sure
that particular attention is paid to flashings and secret gutters
(if any). You'll get felt with the new roof, if you have it done.
Nails should be copper or stainless. You may find that some of
the slates are re-usable - I'd consider slates as a strongly
desirable choice for re-roofing, rather than tiles, at first call.
  #9   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
Mary Fisher
 
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Default No felt


"nightjar .uk.com" nightjar@insert my surname here wrote in message
...



I don't think I have ever lived in a house with felt under either the
slates or the tiles (they are different forms of roof covering), apart
from one with a small extension that I had re-roofed. Real slate is not
much used in modern properties and the usual method of sealing the gaps
used to be torching - mortar infills inside the roof. However, that has
usually fallen off by now, producing some really well-ventilated roof
spaces. My current house, built in 1931, has tiles laid directly onto on
close-fitting wooden boards.


Our (semi) house, built in 1937, has a tiled roof. My father back pointed
the tiles with mortar when it was new, it's still doing good service. We
have no loose or broken tiles, most others round here have - or have been
re-roofed.

Mary


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Christian McArdle
 
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Default No felt

Thanks. When you say "It's quite normal", do you mean to refuse a
mortgage because of no felt?


It is usual to have no felt. Indeed, it is unusual for a Victorian/Edwardian
house to have felt, unless it has been reroofed in the last few decades.
There is no problem with mortgages.

If you decide to reroof (it isn't necessary just on the basis of felt) then
ensure that a high quality breathable membrane is used. This gives much
greater flexibility when it comes to insulating the roof.

Christian.





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Posted to uk.d-i-y
 
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Default No felt


Chris Bacon wrote:
timegoesby wrote:
I have looked at a terraced house and there is no felt under the tiles.
A couple of slates need replacing and others renailing. Does felt
have to be there? Would a building society refuse a mortgage on the
place if no felt under the tiles?


The felt does not have to be there, and it's not so long ago that
it wasn't used. The B.S. or bank will be mostly interested in
whether the house is worth the money, so that their loan is safe.
They may make it a condition of the loan that you repair the roof,
so that their investment doesn't deteriorate.

It sounds as if the roof is well on the way to needing re-doing.
For a terraced house, this shouldn't be very expensive, make sure
that particular attention is paid to flashings and secret gutters
(if any). You'll get felt with the new roof, if you have it done.
Nails should be copper or stainless. You may find that some of
the slates are re-usable - I'd consider slates as a strongly
desirable choice for re-roofing, rather than tiles, at first call.


Thanks to all on this thread. The roof is not in bad shape, some
re-nailing here and there. This saves fortune on new tiles and felt.

  #12   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
keith_765
 
Posts: n/a
Default No felt


"Chris Bacon" wrote in message
...
timegoesby wrote:
I have looked at a terraced house and there is no felt under the tiles.
A couple of slates need replacing and others renailing. Does felt
have to be there? Would a building society refuse a mortgage on the
place if no felt under the tiles?


The felt does not have to be there, and it's not so long ago that
it wasn't used. The B.S. or bank will be mostly interested in
whether the house is worth the money, so that their loan is safe.
They may make it a condition of the loan that you repair the roof,
so that their investment doesn't deteriorate.

It sounds as if the roof is well on the way to needing re-doing.
For a terraced house, this shouldn't be very expensive, make sure
that particular attention is paid to flashings and secret gutters
(if any). You'll get felt with the new roof, if you have it done.
Nails should be copper or stainless. You may find that some of
the slates are re-usable - I'd consider slates as a strongly
desirable choice for re-roofing, rather than tiles, at first call.


You would not use stainless steel nails on natural slates, Copper or
aluminium yes. Stainless nails are mainly used on man made interlocking
slates such as Redland Cambrians or Marley Monarch.
Try removing a natural slates if they have been nailed with any type of
steel or iron nail. You will either snap the lath or break the end off the
rip (Rip, tools for removing slates and slate nails)


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keith_765
 
Posts: n/a
Default No felt


"Ian White" wrote in message
...
Andy Hall wrote:

- Around any chimney stacks there will be either a lead flashing or
mortar benching from the stack onto the slates. Look around the
timbers inside for signs of water penetration or timber decay -
typically wet rot and perhaps weevil damage. From the outside with
binoculars take a look at the condition of the flashing/benching.

- If there is a rear extension, there will usually be a valley where
the roofs join, normally lead. Again look at as much of the timbers
inside as you can and the condition from the outside.


If you can, look in complete darkness for light shining in from outside.
Then look very carefully with a strong light for signs that rain has
blown in - or worse still, powder snow - at any time in the past. Don't
forget to check underneath the more recent loft insulation.

And while you're there, check the topside of the lath and plaster
ceilings.

CUT
Also check the sides of the chimney stack to see if any signs of water marks
running down, if there is you want either new flashing and soakers.
I've work on hundreds of old slated roofs and re roofed a few hundred more.
The main reason for re roofing is that the nails have gone like pins where
they go through the slate holes. You will all ways see light shining
through a none felted slated roof, this is natural, as the slates are never
laid tight together. Welsh slates in there hay day were cut by hand to
size, later years trimming was done by machine. They vary from 1/8 to 3/8 in
width. To keep bond they are laid with varying gaps between each slate. So
as you look at a slated roof from inside light can shine through from all
angles. Snow is sometimes a problem. This was over come by spreading cow
hair mortar , known as touching, on the back of the lath and slate. Now days
underlay felt is used. There are several types of felt from about £9 to
£109 a roll. You only get what you pay for as regards quality. Even some of
these felts have to be vented.

K. S. Notts


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Adrian C
 
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Default No felt

wrote:
Thanks to all on this thread. The roof is not in bad shape, some
re-nailing here and there. This saves fortune on new tiles and felt.


We have a Victorian roof with no felt. The clay tiles occasionally slip,
and I've been able to right those from the inside, so far.

Thinking about getting the roof overhauled using the same tiles, and
then getting
http://www.warmroof.co.uk to bond it all together with
foam, to cut down on further slippages and add some insulation. We can't
have much traditional insulation over the ceiling, the ceiling joists
don't allow much depth and we still want to use the loft space for storage.

So this is our solution, not keen on the expenditure on a new roof,
heavy concrete tiles, problems with the adjoining b****** neighbour etc...

:-)

--
Adrian C
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Andy Hall
 
Posts: n/a
Default No felt

On Sat, 3 Jun 2006 17:32:39 +0100, Adrian C wrote
(in article ):

wrote:
Thanks to all on this thread. The roof is not in bad shape, some
re-nailing here and there. This saves fortune on new tiles and felt.


We have a Victorian roof with no felt. The clay tiles occasionally slip,
and I've been able to right those from the inside, so far.

Thinking about getting the roof overhauled using the same tiles, and
then getting
http://www.warmroof.co.uk to bond it all together with
foam, to cut down on further slippages and add some insulation. We can't
have much traditional insulation over the ceiling, the ceiling joists
don't allow much depth and we still want to use the loft space for storage.

So this is our solution, not keen on the expenditure on a new roof,
heavy concrete tiles, problems with the adjoining b****** neighbour etc...

-)




This is an *exceedingly* unwise idea, Adrian.

The foam treatments have a number of negative impacts to a roof structu

- Any leaks or water ingress that occurs through cracked or slipped tiles
etc. or simply blowing in will result in water being trapped in contact with
timbers.

- Ventilation of timbers will be substantially reduced and together with a
supply of water, you will have created the perfect condition for rot to take
place.

- It becomes impossible to inspect the roof structure for problems, further
deterioration etc.

- It also becomes impossible for a surveyor to assess the condition of the
roof and he will mark that in a survey report to potential future purchasers.
- You will significantly reduce the marketability of the property. Have a
chat with a few people with knowledge of the property market and see what
they say.


Personally I would walk away from any property that had had this done,
whether it was well intentioned or not. It creates an unknown situation for
the buyer whereby the only way to be certain of the integrity of the roof
structure is to rip off all the foam. Generally the only way to do that is
to rip off the tiles and battens as well - in other words do the re-roofing
job that should have been done in the first place.





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keith_765
 
Posts: n/a
Default No felt


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 3 Jun 2006 17:32:39 +0100, Adrian C wrote
(in article ):

wrote:
Thanks to all on this thread. The roof is not in bad shape, some
re-nailing here and there. This saves fortune on new tiles and felt.


We have a Victorian roof with no felt. The clay tiles occasionally slip,
and I've been able to right those from the inside, so far.

Thinking about getting the roof overhauled using the same tiles, and
then getting
http://www.warmroof.co.uk to bond it all together with
foam, to cut down on further slippages and add some insulation. We can't
have much traditional insulation over the ceiling, the ceiling joists
don't allow much depth and we still want to use the loft space for

storage.

So this is our solution, not keen on the expenditure on a new roof,
heavy concrete tiles, problems with the adjoining b****** neighbour

etc...

-)




This is an *exceedingly* unwise idea, Adrian.

The foam treatments have a number of negative impacts to a roof

structu

- Any leaks or water ingress that occurs through cracked or slipped tiles
etc. or simply blowing in will result in water being trapped in contact

with
timbers.

- Ventilation of timbers will be substantially reduced and together with a
supply of water, you will have created the perfect condition for rot to

take
place.

- It becomes impossible to inspect the roof structure for problems,

further
deterioration etc.

- It also becomes impossible for a surveyor to assess the condition of the
roof and he will mark that in a survey report to potential future

purchasers.
- You will significantly reduce the marketability of the property. Have

a
chat with a few people with knowledge of the property market and see what
they say.


Personally I would walk away from any property that had had this done,
whether it was well intentioned or not. It creates an unknown situation

for
the buyer whereby the only way to be certain of the integrity of the roof
structure is to rip off all the foam. Generally the only way to do that

is
to rip off the tiles and battens as well - in other words do the

re-roofing
job that should have been done in the first place.

I have commented on this type of roofing solution before. The above comments
are 100% correct.
If you intend on reusing the original tile with this spray you will regret
it. How old are the original tiles, if you say they are slipping why ? as
the tops of the tiles deteareated, it wont belong before the tiles start
coming loose further down the length. If any one goes on the roof to say
point a stack or renew a TV aerial and break a tile. Its near imposable to
get a tile out. The only way is to cut away the spray insulation from
inside, because every things bonded together. All this is from my own
personal knowledge being in the roofing trade for more than 50 years. The
Federation of roofing contractor don't recommend this product.

K S Nottm


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Dave Plowman (News)
 
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Default No felt

In article ,
Adrian C wrote:
Thinking about getting the roof overhauled using the same tiles, and
then getting http://www.warmroof.co.uk to bond it all together with
foam, to cut down on further slippages and add some insulation. We can't
have much traditional insulation over the ceiling, the ceiling joists
don't allow much depth and we still want to use the loft space for
storage.


Don't even think about it. It's a bodge of the first order and you'll
regret it.

--
*Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #18   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
Stuart Noble
 
Posts: n/a
Default No felt

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Adrian C wrote:

Thinking about getting the roof overhauled using the same tiles, and
then getting http://www.warmroof.co.uk to bond it all together with
foam, to cut down on further slippages and add some insulation. We can't
have much traditional insulation over the ceiling, the ceiling joists
don't allow much depth and we still want to use the loft space for
storage.



Don't even think about it. It's a bodge of the first order and you'll
regret it.


I can't see anything wrong with bonding slates together from below but
that wouldn't involve covering the whole surface with foam. A couple of
lines of foam between each joist would probably be sufficient, and
that's an easy d-i-y job. It would make the slates unuseable in the
event of a refit though
  #19   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
 
Posts: n/a
Default No felt

Stuart Noble wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Adrian C wrote:


Thinking about getting the roof overhauled using the same tiles, and
then getting http://www.warmroof.co.uk to bond it all together with
foam, to cut down on further slippages and add some insulation. We can't
have much traditional insulation over the ceiling, the ceiling joists
don't allow much depth and we still want to use the loft space for
storage.



Don't even think about it. It's a bodge of the first order and you'll
regret it.


I can't see anything wrong with bonding slates together from below but
that wouldn't involve covering the whole surface with foam. A couple of
lines of foam between each joist would probably be sufficient, and
that's an easy d-i-y job. It would make the slates unuseable in the
event of a refit though


I've wondered about that before. Screw some metal wires to the joists
so the wires run across the underside of the slates so the foam bonds
slates to foam to wire to joists, then it should all stay in place
regardless of nail condition. At least for as long as the foam lasts.

With only a little line of foam it should be easy enough to cut it
underneath before removing. Has this ever been tried?


NT

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Chris Bacon
 
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Default No felt

Stuart Noble wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Adrian C wrote:
Thinking about getting the roof overhauled using the same tiles, and
then getting http://www.warmroof.co.uk to bond it all together with
foam, to cut down on further slippages


Don't even think about it. It's a bodge of the first order and you'll
regret it.

I can't see anything wrong with bonding slates together from below but
that wouldn't involve covering the whole surface with foam. A couple of
lines of foam between each joist would probably be sufficient, and
that's an easy d-i-y job. It would make the slates unuseable in the
event of a refit though


Not very easy to stick to the underneath of a dirty flaky old slate.
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