Hi

Google doesn't lead to any clear conclusions, so I'll ask here...

We've just looked at a house with a view to buying.

The roof tiles (don't know when they were redone), which I had a good look
at through the attic window are red, fairly standard size, but only about
4-5mm thick.

This seems too thin to be concrete, and the material appears slightly
fibrous. Unfortunately I didn't take a camera.

Is asbestos cement likely - as in how common was its usage for flat roofing
tiles? Is there any other material it could be with that thickness?

I'm not normally that bothered about crysolite products (assumption)
but I'm thinking of a higher than desireable fibre count blowing in through
the window continuously when it's open.

The only way to be sure is to have a sample analysed, but I'm interested
in canvassing some opinions before I start forking out cash.

Many thanks,

Tim

"Tim S" wrote in message
...
Hi

Google doesn't lead to any clear conclusions, so I'll ask here...

We've just looked at a house with a view to buying.

The roof tiles (don't know when they were redone), which I had a good look
at through the attic window are red, fairly standard size, but only about
4-5mm thick.

This seems too thin to be concrete, and the material appears slightly
fibrous. Unfortunately I didn't take a camera.

Is asbestos cement likely - as in how common was its usage for flat
roofing
tiles? Is there any other material it could be with that thickness?

I'm not normally that bothered about crysolite products (assumption)
but I'm thinking of a higher than desireable fibre count blowing in
through
the window continuously when it's open.

The only way to be sure is to have a sample analysed, but I'm interested
in canvassing some opinions before I start forking out cash.

Many thanks,

Tim

========================
They could be Marley / Eternit slates. Look here for a general idea:

http://www.eternit.co.uk/Products/Pr...ngename=Slates

That's all one line - watch out for the wrap.

Cic.

Cicero wrote:

========================
They could be Marley / Eternit slates. Look here for a general idea:


http://www.eternit.co.uk/Products/Pr...ngename=Slates

That's all one line - watch out for the wrap.

Cic.

That's very interesting - thank you.

They certainly look like a fibre-cement product of some sort,
just a question mark over the "fibre" bit. Wonder what the Marley
tiles are made of? A search of their website for "asbestos",
suspiciously, turns up zero matches.

Cheers

Tim

"Tim S" wrote in message
...
Cicero wrote:

========================
They could be Marley / Eternit slates. Look here for a general idea:



http://www.eternit.co.uk/Products/Pr...ngename=Slates

That's all one line - watch out for the wrap.

Cic.

That's very interesting - thank you.

They certainly look like a fibre-cement product of some sort,
just a question mark over the "fibre" bit. Wonder what the Marley
tiles are made of? A search of their website for "asbestos",
suspiciously, turns up zero matches.

Cheers

Tim


====================
When I used these slates about 5 years ago Eternit was an independent
company and I'm pretty sure that they were asbestos-free. I doubt very much
if Marley would have reverted to using asbestos when they took over. Marley
also reduced the range of tiles very drastically so there's much less choice
of size and colour now.

You could ask for a 'Health & Safety data sheet' from the Marley page which
should (hopefully) confirm the absence of asbestos.

Cic.

Cicero wrote:


====================
When I used these slates about 5 years ago Eternit was an independent
company and I'm pretty sure that they were asbestos-free. I doubt very
much if Marley would have reverted to using asbestos when they took over.
Marley also reduced the range of tiles very drastically so there's much
less choice of size and colour now.

Ah - that explains why I couldn't find red tiles.


You could ask for a 'Health & Safety data sheet' from the Marley page
which should (hopefully) confirm the absence of asbestos.

Good idea - I'll get one.

I feel encouraged, if there is an asbestos free product which these tiles
*might* be, then I have hope - I'd still get a sample tested - but I
suspect they could well be this product.

Many thanks indeed.

Tim

PS

Stupid estate agents... I'm looking at two houses in my village: this one at
200k (2 bed, needs total rewire and full redecoration, drive for 1 Mini and
no insulation to speak of. The other looks like not much redecoration,
garage and 3 bed at 210k.

Why is the 200k house so nearly the same price as a much better house 1/4
mile away, I ask. Them: well, the 200k house has so much potential.

"Potentially lots of work and money I'll have to spend" methinks, to never
be able to get to the level of the 210k house. Those guys crack me up.

Tim S wrote:
Cicero wrote:

re fibre cement tiles

You could ask for a 'Health & Safety data sheet' from the Marley page
which should (hopefully) confirm the absence of asbestos.

Good idea - I'll get one.

I'm not sure how much use a datasheet for a new product would be,
unless the tiles are new.


I feel encouraged, if there is an asbestos free product which these tiles
*might* be, then I have hope - I'd still get a sample tested - but I
suspect they could well be this product.

tbh its a non issue, but can often panic buyers with no knowledge of
the topic. Given how long asbestos cement tiles have been around, if
you see some theyre probably more likely to be asbestos than not.

Unless theyre disintegrating they wont release fibres, and the evidence
is that chrysotile is not a dangerous fibre anyway. If, and its not
likely, they were blue or brown, things would be different; crocidolite
and amosite have claimed many lives.



Stupid estate agents... I'm looking at two houses in my village: this one at
200k (2 bed, needs total rewire and full redecoration, drive for 1 Mini and
no insulation to speak of. The other looks like not much redecoration,
garage and 3 bed at 210k.

Why is the 200k house so nearly the same price as a much better house 1/4
mile away, I ask. Them: well, the 200k house has so much potential.

"Potentially lots of work and money I'll have to spend" methinks, to never
be able to get to the level of the 210k house. Those guys crack me up.

Why would one take anything a salesman has to say seriously.


NT

wrote:

Tim S wrote:
Cicero wrote:

re fibre cement tiles

You could ask for a 'Health & Safety data sheet' from the Marley page
which should (hopefully) confirm the absence of asbestos.

Good idea - I'll get one.

I'm not sure how much use a datasheet for a new product would be,
unless the tiles are new.


True. I could ring their helpline and pick their brains on old products.
I'll have to take a stab at the age of the roof, judging by the moss and
lichen, probably 20 years old and predating the current owners.

I feel encouraged, if there is an asbestos free product which these tiles
*might* be, then I have hope - I'd still get a sample tested - but I
suspect they could well be this product.

tbh its a non issue, but can often panic buyers with no knowledge of
the topic. Given how long asbestos cement tiles have been around, if
you see some theyre probably more likely to be asbestos than not.


Yes. I'm pretty happy judging garage roofs, but I'm not familiar with house
roof tiles beyond real slate, concrete, and clay.

Unless theyre disintegrating they wont release fibres, and the evidence
is that chrysotile is not a dangerous fibre anyway. If, and its not
likely, they were blue or brown, things would be different; crocidolite
and amosite have claimed many lives.

Such a difficult area to judge, so many conflicting reports... As I say, not
normally bothered - say with a garage roof. Few fibres maybe, blowing away
in the wind, who cares... This is an odd case, purely because of the velux
window - got me thinking whether the fibres would get concentrated to a bad
level within the roof space. The roof space is boarded and, although not
prepared as a habitable room (floor not strengthened and just a loft ladder
for access) it could be used as a play area for older kids with a rail
around the opening, or as a study, which is pretty much what the current
owners used it for.



Stupid estate agents... I'm looking at two houses in my village: this one
at 200k (2 bed, needs total rewire and full redecoration, drive for 1
Mini and no insulation to speak of. The other looks like not much
redecoration, garage and 3 bed at 210k.

Why is the 200k house so nearly the same price as a much better house 1/4
mile away, I ask. Them: well, the 200k house has so much potential.

"Potentially lots of work and money I'll have to spend" methinks, to
never be able to get to the level of the 210k house. Those guys crack me
up.

Why would one take anything a salesman has to say seriously.


NT

Heh - not me. The 210k house looks like (on paper, get to see it on Tuesday)
like it might actually be worth 210k. If I went for the 200k house, I'd be
offering somewhat less to account for the immediate remedial work which I'm
just costing up now (DIY, though I'm not too proud to admit I'll probably
have to get a plasterer in).

Looks like a fun project though. Doesn't seem at first sight anything much
wrong with the basic structure and it's very solid (roof concerns
notwithstanding). Roof space is ripe for a proper loft conversion later. I
have a splendid excuse ready for SWMBO, to completely rewire - the current
house possesses all of 3 circuits, lights, cooker and sockets (about 1-2
per room, grand total of 4 in the kitchen, including a dodgey bit of
spurring off the cooker point. Looks like a 30-40 year old installation. So
I can flood it with power and data before actually moving in - get the
majorly dirty work done and dusted straight away, quick paint job and it
should be pleasantly habitable. Then redo the decor nicely room by room
later.

Cheers

Tim

On Sat, 08 Apr 2006 16:28:31 +0100, Tim S wrote:

Is asbestos cement likely - as in how common was its usage for flat roofing
tiles? Is there any other material it could be with that thickness?

If they are after 1980 it is unlikely.

I'm not normally that bothered about crysolite products (assumption)
but I'm thinking of a higher than desireable fibre count blowing in through
the window continuously when it's open.

If you are worried don't buy the house. Objectively the risk, even
if they are solid chrysotile asbestos (which they won't be), is as
close to zero as makes no difference but there is no accounting for
fear.

Don't forget that flooring tiles from earlier than the 1980's are
between 30 and 50% chrysotile if you really want to worry yourself.


--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

Peter Parry wrote:

On Sat, 08 Apr 2006 16:28:31 +0100, Tim S wrote:

Is asbestos cement likely - as in how common was its usage for flat
roofing tiles? Is there any other material it could be with that
thickness?

If they are after 1980 it is unlikely.

That's useful information. Suspect the roof is a bit older than this, can't
get a definate date yet, though the neighbours may know something.

I'm not normally that bothered about crysolite products (assumption)
but I'm thinking of a higher than desireable fibre count blowing in
through the window continuously when it's open.

If you are worried don't buy the house. Objectively the risk, even
if they are solid chrysotile asbestos (which they won't be), is as
close to zero as makes no difference but there is no accounting for
fear.

That's what I keep telling myself - but it's hard to undo years of
"conditioning" - like at work, everytime a bit of grey board
needs to be touched, the men in suits with tents are booked in at great
expense!

I remember reading that crysolite fibres are supposed to dissolve and
disperse in the lungs, unlike the other varieties, so are unlikely to cause
the body much grief. But for every report like that, there's another report
that says you'll get something 'orrible and die.

Don't forget that flooring tiles from earlier than the 1980's are
between 30 and 50% chrysotile if you really want to worry yourself.


Indeed - that turned up in my googling earlier - I was surprised. I knew
about artex, but flooring was a new one on me.

Cheers

Tim

Tim S wrote:
wrote:
Tim S wrote:
Cicero wrote:

re fibre cement tiles

I'm not sure how much use a datasheet for a new product would be,
unless the tiles are new.

True. I could ring their helpline and pick their brains on old products.
I'll have to take a stab at the age of the roof, judging by the moss and
lichen, probably 20 years old and predating the current owners.

not sure that vague guessing would tell you any more than a vague
guess.


Unless theyre disintegrating they wont release fibres, and the evidence
is that chrysotile is not a dangerous fibre anyway. If, and its not
likely, they were blue or brown, things would be different; crocidolite
and amosite have claimed many lives.

Such a difficult area to judge, so many conflicting reports... As I say, not
normally bothered - say with a garage roof. Few fibres maybe, blowing away
in the wind, who cares... This is an odd case, purely because of the velux
window - got me thinking whether the fibres would get concentrated to a bad
level within the roof space.

Are the tiles crumbling to dust? If not, just where are these fibres
you speak of coming from?


The roof space is boarded and, although not
prepared as a habitable room (floor not strengthened and just a loft ladder
for access) it could be used as a play area for older kids with a rail
around the opening, or as a study, which is pretty much what the current
owners used it for.

if it has glass fibre insulation, theres good reason to believe that
may be fairly unsafe in the same was as blue and brown asbestos. It
hasnt been researched yet, but the awareness of its similar structure
and properties is there. So if you want to worry about dying from lung
diseases, youve got loose glass fibre indoors vs cement bound fibres
outdoors.

To be serious, youve got way bigger risks in the house than asbestos
tiles even if theyre blue/brown. Its odd how people can obsess over
trivia and ignore the real dangers.


I
have a splendid excuse ready for SWMBO, to completely rewire - the current
house possesses all of 3 circuits, lights, cooker and sockets (about 1-2
per room, grand total of 4 in the kitchen, including a dodgey bit of
spurring off the cooker point. Looks like a 30-40 year old installation. So
I can flood it with power and data before actually moving in - get the
majorly dirty work done and dusted straight away, quick paint job and it
should be pleasantly habitable. Then redo the decor nicely room by room
later.

Cheers

Tim

Yes. I'dd add plenty more cat5 than needed, its very cheap and may or
may not come in rather useful downline. Eg more data, burglar alarms,
security systems, multizoned semi-passive heating and cooling, hifi
distribution etc, fire alarm system wiring, bellcalls, phone sockets,
intercom, baby monitor, and who knows what future apps. Maybe your food
cupboard will want to talk to the computer one day - less likely things
have already happened.


NT

wrote:

Tim S wrote:

Are the tiles crumbling to dust? If not, just where are these fibres
you speak of coming from?

Not crumbling - I was assuming some might come off the surface due to any
minor abrasion, wind etc. I might have assumed wrong, but I didn't honestly
know.

if it has glass fibre insulation, theres good reason to believe that
may be fairly unsafe in the same was as blue and brown asbestos. It
hasnt been researched yet, but the awareness of its similar structure
and properties is there. So if you want to worry about dying from lung
diseases, youve got loose glass fibre indoors vs cement bound fibres
outdoors.

To be serious, youve got way bigger risks in the house than asbestos
tiles even if theyre blue/brown. Its odd how people can obsess over
trivia and ignore the real dangers.

I think I agree with you. I was under the impression white asbestos was
exaggerated in dangers. The asbestos removal industry is certainly doing
well out of it. Soemone's been doing a good job with the scare-mongering.


Yes. I'dd add plenty more cat5 than needed, its very cheap and may or
may not come in rather useful downline. Eg more data, burglar alarms,
security systems, multizoned semi-passive heating and cooling, hifi
distribution etc, fire alarm system wiring, bellcalls, phone sockets,
intercom, baby monitor, and who knows what future apps. Maybe your food
cupboard will want to talk to the computer one day - less likely things
have already happened.

Couldn't agree more. My office was flooded with CAT5e 2 years ago, and now
we (7 sysadmins) have another two 24port switches lying on the desks on top
of utilising all the wall points.

Best to use conduit too - whatever one puts in now is all going to be
obsolete in 10 years.

Just roughly costed the elctrics, and am pleasantly surprised with the
result, considering I've done a completely over the top spec with the best
parts I can find. tlc's prices are quite refreshing compared to B&Q.
Haven't costed in getting some test instruments off ebay yet, nor the
making good - but it's still going to be way cheaper than getting a man in.

Cheers

Tim

On Sat, 08 Apr 2006 22:40:01 +0100, Tim S wrote:


I remember reading that crysolite fibres are supposed to dissolve and
disperse in the lungs, unlike the other varieties, so are unlikely to cause
the body much grief. But for every report like that, there's another report
that says you'll get something 'orrible and die.

Chrysotile comes from the serpentine group, whereas the other fibre
types, tremolite, amosite, crocidolite, actinolite and anthophyllite,
are part of the amphiboles group. In contrast with amphiboles,
Chrysotile does not persist in the lungs after inhalation; it is
quickly eliminated by the body. A prolonged exposure to high
concentrations of chrysotile fibres is required for a clinical
manifestation of pulmonary damage to appear.

The asbestos panic is largely lawyer driven and stems from a question
asked of an expert witness in one court case years ago which was
(more or less) "Can you say that exposure to one fibre of asbestos
cannot cause mesothelioma" to which the answer was "no". There is no
known threshold of exposure to asbestos below which a person is at
zero risk of developing mesothelioma. Immediately all cases of
damage from asbestos exposure became indefensible and the lawyers
rushed to get their snouts in the trough.

Although it is undoubtedly true that a single amphibole asbestos
fibre _can_ cause mesothelioma (and there are documented cases of
relatively small exposure most probably causing mesothelioma) all the
evidence is that the probability of damage follows a standard
exposure-response relationship - the greater the exposure and the
greater the length of time the greater the risk.

With chrysotile the evidence of it being harmful other than in
conditions of high exposure for a long time (such as in mining and
fabrication of asbestos sheeting) is, at best, weak. Certainly there
is no evidence of any greater incidence of asbestos related disease
in many occupational groups which have had higher than normal
exposure only to chrysotile such as motor mechanics (brake dust).

What is also true is that there is no certainty that many of the
replacements are any safer - or even as safe as Chrysotile.

The risk from normal domestic exposure to asbestos cement products is
a close to zero as makes no difference. Flying in a commercial
aircraft for one hour would certainly give a much higher lifetime
risk of getting cancer from the increased radiation dose than living
in a house with an asbestos cement roof would give of contracting
asbestos related illness.

In the last decade the official (HSE) predictions of deaths from
Mesothelioma have gone from a peak of 3,300 to a peak of 2,100 (on
the same basis) and that has now reduced to about 1,800. At the same
time the estimate of asbestos related lung cancer deaths has halved.
Not surprisingly many asbestos removal sites and lawyer groups
continue to quote the older figures.


--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

Peter Parry wrote:

On Sat, 08 Apr 2006 22:40:01 +0100, Tim S wrote:


I remember reading that crysolite fibres are supposed to dissolve and
disperse in the lungs, unlike the other varieties, so are unlikely to
cause the body much grief. But for every report like that, there's another
report that says you'll get something 'orrible and die.

Chrysotile comes from the serpentine group, whereas the other fibre
types, tremolite, amosite, crocidolite, actinolite and anthophyllite,
are part of the amphiboles group. In contrast with amphiboles,
Chrysotile does not persist in the lungs after inhalation; it is
quickly eliminated by the body. A prolonged exposure to high
concentrations of chrysotile fibres is required for a clinical
manifestation of pulmonary damage to appear.

The asbestos panic is largely lawyer driven and stems from a question
asked of an expert witness in one court case years ago which was
(more or less) "Can you say that exposure to one fibre of asbestos
cannot cause mesothelioma" to which the answer was "no". There is no
known threshold of exposure to asbestos below which a person is at
zero risk of developing mesothelioma. Immediately all cases of
damage from asbestos exposure became indefensible and the lawyers
rushed to get their snouts in the trough.

Although it is undoubtedly true that a single amphibole asbestos
fibre _can_ cause mesothelioma (and there are documented cases of
relatively small exposure most probably causing mesothelioma) all the
evidence is that the probability of damage follows a standard
exposure-response relationship - the greater the exposure and the
greater the length of time the greater the risk.

With chrysotile the evidence of it being harmful other than in
conditions of high exposure for a long time (such as in mining and
fabrication of asbestos sheeting) is, at best, weak. Certainly there
is no evidence of any greater incidence of asbestos related disease
in many occupational groups which have had higher than normal
exposure only to chrysotile such as motor mechanics (brake dust).

What is also true is that there is no certainty that many of the
replacements are any safer - or even as safe as Chrysotile.

The risk from normal domestic exposure to asbestos cement products is
a close to zero as makes no difference. Flying in a commercial
aircraft for one hour would certainly give a much higher lifetime
risk of getting cancer from the increased radiation dose than living
in a house with an asbestos cement roof would give of contracting
asbestos related illness.

In the last decade the official (HSE) predictions of deaths from
Mesothelioma have gone from a peak of 3,300 to a peak of 2,100 (on
the same basis) and that has now reduced to about 1,800. At the same
time the estimate of asbestos related lung cancer deaths has halved.
Not surprisingly many asbestos removal sites and lawyer groups
continue to quote the older figures.



Thank you Peter - most informative. I feel considerably reassured

Cheers

Tim

In article ,
Peter Parry wrote:
Certainly there is no evidence of any greater incidence of asbestos
related disease in many occupational groups which have had higher than
normal exposure only to chrysotile such as motor mechanics (brake dust).

Indeed for many years the levels were high in tube stations due to the
brakes on the trains.

--
*Gargling is a good way to see if your throat leaks.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Peter Parry wrote:

Don't forget that flooring tiles from earlier than the 1980's are
between 30 and 50% chrysotile if you really want to worry yourself.

I thought it was just in old vinyl floor tiles and levelling compound,
not in ceramic tiles.


NT

Tim S wrote:
Hi

Google doesn't lead to any clear conclusions, so I'll ask here...

We've just looked at a house with a view to buying.

The roof tiles (don't know when they were redone), which I had a good look
at through the attic window are red, fairly standard size, but only about
4-5mm thick.

Sounds quite similar to our old roof. That was asbestos based. We just
had the whole roof removed and replaced (it was unlined and leaking).
Disposal of the asbestos tiles cost IIRC £450 - we had a small skip
delivered and taken away again by a specialist company. The risk, as
others have stated, is very low.

Jon.

Tournifreak wrote:


Tim S wrote:
Hi

Google doesn't lead to any clear conclusions, so I'll ask here...

We've just looked at a house with a view to buying.

The roof tiles (don't know when they were redone), which I had a good
look at through the attic window are red, fairly standard size, but only
about 4-5mm thick.

Sounds quite similar to our old roof. That was asbestos based. We just
had the whole roof removed and replaced (it was unlined and leaking).
Disposal of the asbestos tiles cost IIRC £450 - we had a small skip
delivered and taken away again by a specialist company. The risk, as
others have stated, is very low.

Jon.

Thanks Jon.

Unfortunately the house got snapped up in the 4 days I was costing
works. Some local builder had his eye on it, prior to it being advertised,
apparently and gave the asking price (I was planning on going a bit under
due to full rewire and crap kitchen layout which would have needed a wall
removing). Bloody housing market.

Just seen three more houses (for interest, not really on topic).

a) Beautiful end of terraced cottage with a good sized garden. Tiny inside
though, and expensive and with shot electrics, what looked like an antique
Crabtree voltage driven ELCB protecting the TT installation - though I'm
not 100% certain, but looked of the era when RCDs weren't common. Rest of
CU broken and cabling didn't look too fresh either.

b) Nice solid brick 50's semi, pricey but good garden and parking. Totally
ruined by poor extention layout and cheap makeover involving plasterboard
on dabs on all walls (I hate plasterboard on walls, especially when not
skimmed), nice new Contactum CU (good), new 2-quid fittings everywhere, but
(despite the plasterboard work) same original cabling - spotted choc block
through hole in plasterboard (well, I suppose it was accessible, until the
hole is repaired!). Wouldn't be happy until I'd redone the wiring and thus
ruined the cheap make over. Why did they bother?

c) Best bet so far, but under offer - but I had to look...
Very cheap semi-bungalow, boarded up due to reposession and relation
of owner breaking in and either trashing the place or the damage he caused
breaking in encouraged the local oiks to have a go (allegedly, according to
locals I was chatting to).

Once I looked beyond the broken glass and the buggered kitchen, I realised
that once stripped out and cleaned up by a couple of labourers with a big
skip, we would have a totally sound shell - plaster was solid, structure in
good order (with couple of caveats). A rewire, new heating system and a
kitchen - plus new windows where broken (actually most of them) would have
resulted in a practically perfect property with all new core systems, but
original character. The cheapness of the property and the addtitional
negotiating potential against a remote bank who probably just want it off
their books would have saved enough money to cover the work easily.

Anyway - probably gone - and a slight question mark over whether said
relation is likely to pay any more visits or not means it won't happen.
Interesting 50 minute visit though imaginging the potential...

Cheers,

Tim

Tim S wrote:
The cheapness of the property and the addtitional
negotiating potential against a remote bank who probably just want it off
their books

You be careful about that. Don't get too excited about
the bank "just wanting it off their books". They'll try
and skin you.

Peter Parry wrote:
On Sat, 08 Apr 2006 22:40:01 +0100, Tim S wrote:


I remember reading that crysolite fibres are supposed to dissolve and
disperse in the lungs, unlike the other varieties, so are unlikely
to cause the body much grief. But for every report like that,
there's another report that says you'll get something 'orrible and
die.

Chrysotile comes from the serpentine group, whereas the other fibre
types, tremolite, amosite, crocidolite, actinolite and anthophyllite,
are part of the amphiboles group.......snip the rest.

Sorry, I'm a bit late catching up with this. Peter, may I suggest that
you keep this post and post it again as and when necessary. It's the
perfect reply to alot of these asbestos questions and it would save an
awful lot of bother and arguments. Well, a certain amount of them anyway
:-)


--
Holly, in France
Gite to let in Dordogne, now with pool.
http://la-plaine.chez-alice.fr