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Posted to uk.d-i-y
Andrew Mawson
 
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Default Contrasting oil versus tank LPG central heating costs

Has anyone done the figures contrasting running costs of oil or LPG in
a big tank for central heating?

Place we may be moving to has no gas, it was oil back in the 1980's
but the current owner has totally destroyed the C/H system - cut off
copper pipes flush with the solid floors - and installed wall mounted
electric convector heaters "oh they don't cost much to run at all" -
now do I believe that ! Also they are all on the 1970's ring mains so
no doubt grossly overloaded. As it's going to be a total strip out and
refurbish I will probably put a wet system in and fully re-wire but
which fuel is the best choice - no problems with siting tanks as it's
a large plot.

AWEM


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Nigel Molesworth
 
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Default Contrasting oil versus tank LPG central heating costs

On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 11:18:45 -0000, Andrew Mawson wrote:

Has anyone done the figures contrasting running costs of oil or LPG in
a big tank for central heating?


Running costs are about the same (they come from the same source). Oil
boilers are more expensive, gas tanks are more expensive.

If I was starting again, I'd go for gas.

--
Nigel M
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Phil Anthropist
 
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Default Contrasting oil versus tank LPG central heating costs

"Nigel Molesworth" wrote:
On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 11:18:45 -0000, Andrew Mawson wrote:

Has anyone done the figures contrasting running costs of oil or LPG in
a big tank for central heating?


Running costs are about the same (they come from the same source). Oil
boilers are more expensive, gas tanks are more expensive.

If I was starting again, I'd go for gas.

--
Nigel M


Google found http://www.silvey.co.uk/costs.pdf and
http://www.calor-country-living.co.u...lpg-vs-oil.htm


  #4   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
Phil Anthropist
 
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Default Contrasting oil versus tank LPG central heating costs

"Phil Anthropist" should have wrtten that "Andrew Mawson" and not "Nigel
Molesworth" wrote:
Has anyone done the figures contrasting running costs of oil or LPG in
a big tank for central heating?


Google found http://www.silvey.co.uk/costs.pdf and
http://www.calor-country-living.co.u...lpg-vs-oil.htm


  #5   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
Robert
 
Posts: n/a
Default Contrasting oil versus tank LPG central heating costs

In article , Andrew Mawson
writes
Has anyone done the figures contrasting running costs of oil or LPG in
a big tank for central heating?

Place we may be moving to has no gas, it was oil back in the 1980's
but the current owner has totally destroyed the C/H system - cut off
copper pipes flush with the solid floors - and installed wall mounted
electric convector heaters "oh they don't cost much to run at all" -
now do I believe that ! Also they are all on the 1970's ring mains so
no doubt grossly overloaded. As it's going to be a total strip out and
refurbish I will probably put a wet system in and fully re-wire but
which fuel is the best choice - no problems with siting tanks as it's
a large plot.

AWEM


Whether you install LPG or oil it's going to cost you an arm and a leg
in installation costs that will never be repaid by any savings that you
make on the reduced running costs of LPG or oil compared to electric
heating. I would suggest that the very first thing that you need to do
is have the existing system checked out by an electrician. It may be
perfectly OK.
--
Robert


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Posted to uk.d-i-y
Grunff
 
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Default Contrasting oil versus tank LPG central heating costs

Robert wrote:

Whether you install LPG or oil it's going to cost you an arm and a leg
in installation costs that will never be repaid by any savings that you
make on the reduced running costs of LPG or oil compared to electric
heating.


This is of course complete crap...


--
Grunff
  #7   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
Dave Liquorice
 
Posts: n/a
Default Contrasting oil versus tank LPG central heating costs

On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 11:18:45 -0000, Andrew Mawson wrote:

Has anyone done the figures contrasting running costs of oil or LPG in
a big tank for central heating?


See the URLs already posted but note that they might have axes to
grind...

On basic fuel costs LPG is normally more expensive than oil. But recently
both prices have leapt up. Is this going to be a place you are going to
foreseably stay in for the long term? I'd look at some form of "bio
boiler", perhaps wood chip or wood pellet. Or even just a wood burner
with boiler or provision for one. Think about solar panels as well. The
messy hard bit is running pipes etc, do it now whilst you have the place
completely in pieces.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail



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Posted to uk.d-i-y
The Natural Philosopher
 
Posts: n/a
Default Contrasting oil versus tank LPG central heating costs

Robert wrote:
In article , Andrew Mawson
writes
Has anyone done the figures contrasting running costs of oil or LPG in
a big tank for central heating?

Place we may be moving to has no gas, it was oil back in the 1980's
but the current owner has totally destroyed the C/H system - cut off
copper pipes flush with the solid floors - and installed wall mounted
electric convector heaters "oh they don't cost much to run at all" -
now do I believe that ! Also they are all on the 1970's ring mains so
no doubt grossly overloaded. As it's going to be a total strip out and
refurbish I will probably put a wet system in and fully re-wire but
which fuel is the best choice - no problems with siting tanks as it's
a large plot.

AWEM


Whether you install LPG or oil it's going to cost you an arm and a leg
in installation costs that will never be repaid by any savings that you
make on the reduced running costs of LPG or oil compared to electric
heating. I would suggest that the very first thing that you need to do
is have the existing system checked out by an electrician. It may be
perfectly OK.


Utter ********.

With heating bills up around 1200 quid a year for electric, and 600 quid
a year for oil, and probably 700 quid a year for LPG, in ten years you
will easily repay the costs of fuel run system. Thats just for a
smallish house.

Not to mention that fact that as far as I am concerned, s decent fuel
run CH system adds at least £8k to the property value.
  #9   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
The Natural Philosopher
 
Posts: n/a
Default Contrasting oil versus tank LPG central heating costs

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 11:18:45 -0000, Andrew Mawson wrote:

Has anyone done the figures contrasting running costs of oil or LPG in
a big tank for central heating?


See the URLs already posted but note that they might have axes to
grind...

On basic fuel costs LPG is normally more expensive than oil. But recently
both prices have leapt up. Is this going to be a place you are going to
foreseably stay in for the long term? I'd look at some form of "bio
boiler", perhaps wood chip or wood pellet. Or even just a wood burner
with boiler or provision for one. Think about solar panels as well. The
messy hard bit is running pipes etc, do it now whilst you have the place
completely in pieces.

Sound advice.

Get a wet system in, and leave the actual boiler and fuel till later.

LPG is still more expensive than oil, and electricity is about double
either..or more. With power stations operating at 50% eff or
thereabouts, its always going to be that way unless electricity via
nuclear or some other form of energy comes available.

I'd also strongly advise a pressurised hot water system as well..either
a heatbank/combi for a small property, or proper pressurised tank for a
larger.

Frankly oil is cheaper to install and run than LPG - the LPG tanks ave
to me made to withstand pressure, and there are tighter regs surrounding
their use.

If you have a few acres of woodland and don't mind chainsawing and
carting the stuff around, and dealing with the daily ash, wood burners
are good.

  #10   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
Andrew Sinclair
 
Posts: n/a
Default Contrasting oil versus tank LPG central heating costs

In message , The Natural
Philosopher writes
If you have a few acres of woodland and don't mind chainsawing and
carting the stuff around, and dealing with the daily ash, wood burners
are good.

Have you considered a biomass fired system? There are an increasing
number of wood pellet suppliers around the country and these modern wood
burners are little more trouble than oil boilers as they are largely
automated.

A quick Google threw this link up;

http://www.nef.org.uk/logpile/fuelsu...letboilers.asp

I was the project manager installing a biomass co-firing system at
Rugeley Power Station and we regularly manage to replace 10% of the coal
we burn with environmentally friendly biomass (effectively carbon
neutral). With most of the big coal fired power stations doing this in
the UK there is quite a network of biomass (mainly wood pellets)
suppliers springing up all over the place.

Indicative costs are here;

http://www.nef.org.uk/logpile/pellets/cost.htm

Fuel works out cheaper but the hardware is significantly more expensive.

Cheers,

Andy
--
Andrew Sinclair http://www.smellycat.org


  #11   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
Robert
 
Posts: n/a
Default Contrasting oil versus tank LPG central heating costs

In article , The Natural
Philosopher writes
Robert wrote:
In article , Andrew Mawson
writes
Has anyone done the figures contrasting running costs of oil or LPG in
a big tank for central heating?

Place we may be moving to has no gas, it was oil back in the 1980's
but the current owner has totally destroyed the C/H system - cut off
copper pipes flush with the solid floors - and installed wall mounted
electric convector heaters "oh they don't cost much to run at all" -
now do I believe that ! Also they are all on the 1970's ring mains so
no doubt grossly overloaded. As it's going to be a total strip out and
refurbish I will probably put a wet system in and fully re-wire but
which fuel is the best choice - no problems with siting tanks as it's
a large plot.

AWEM


Whether you install LPG or oil it's going to cost you an arm and a leg
in installation costs that will never be repaid by any savings that you
make on the reduced running costs of LPG or oil compared to electric
heating. I would suggest that the very first thing that you need to do
is have the existing system checked out by an electrician. It may be
perfectly OK.


Utter ********.

With heating bills up around 1200 quid a year for electric, and 600 quid
a year for oil, and probably 700 quid a year for LPG, in ten years you
will easily repay the costs of fuel run system. Thats just for a
smallish house.

Not to mention that fact that as far as I am concerned, s decent fuel
run CH system adds at least £8k to the property value.


Utter ********

My house is 1700 sq ft total floor area and uses 2000 litres of heating
oil a year. At 11.53 KW/litre for light heating oil that amounts to
11530 KW a year.

The cost of 2000 litres of oil at my last fill was .38p per litre total
cost of £798 including 5% VAT.

As my boiler was checked at 93.1% efficiency at the last service that
means the actual total annual heating load for my house is 10737KW.

If I were to have heated my house by electricity the price per unit at
that time was 6.75p with no standing charge.
The cost of 10737KW of electricity would have been £760.98 including VAT
- an annual saving of £37.02 when comparing electricity to oil.

At an annual loss of £37.02 I would therefore never recover the
installation costs of an oil heating system and would actually be
£370.20 out of pocket after ten years rather than breaking even as you
state.

--
Robert
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Dave Plowman (News)
 
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Default Contrasting oil versus tank LPG central heating costs

In article om,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On basic fuel costs LPG is normally more expensive than oil. But
recently both prices have leapt up. Is this going to be a place you are
going to foreseably stay in for the long term? I'd look at some form of
"bio boiler", perhaps wood chip or wood pellet. Or even just a wood
burner with boiler or provision for one. Think about solar panels as
well. The messy hard bit is running pipes etc, do it now whilst you
have the place completely in pieces.


Yup. If you put a basic 'wet' system in while things are fluid ;-)
decorating wise, the boiler/fuel choice can come later.

--
*With her marriage she got a new name and a dress.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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Guy King
 
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Default Contrasting oil versus tank LPG central heating costs

The message
from Robert contains these words:

My house is 1700 sq ft total floor area and uses 2000 litres of heating
oil a year. At 11.53 KW/litre for light heating oil that amounts to
11530 KW a year.


I know it's nitpicking, but can get we this sorted...

kW (small k) is a measure of power - the amount of energy in Joules (big
J) that an appliance uses (or produces) in one second. One Joule is a
Watt Second - one Watt for one second, enough to lift a kilogram just
under 10cm in a second[1].

You can't say that a litre of fuel is the equivalent of 11.53 kW. This
is because you may be, for example, running an 11kW output heater, but
there's no indication of /how long/ it would run on a litre of fuel. In
this case, a little over an hour. There has to be something in an energy
measure that tells us over how long the number quoted can be sustained.

Thus - energy is paid for in kiloWatt hours - kWh. The energy density of
your fuel oil is 11.53kWh/litre.

Sorry - I'm sure you just slipped, but it really winds me up!

[1] In what passes for standard earth gravity round here.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
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John Rumm
 
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Default Contrasting oil versus tank LPG central heating costs

Guy King wrote:

I know it's nitpicking, but can get we this sorted...


And you know the trouble with nitpicking[1]....

kW (small k) is a measure of power - the amount of energy in Joules (big
J) that an appliance uses (or produces) in one second.


Well no, its the amount of energy in *kilo* Joules... ;-)

Sorry - I'm sure you just slipped, but it really winds me up!


[1] anyone an do it!

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/


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Posted to uk.d-i-y
Guy King
 
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Default Contrasting oil versus tank LPG central heating costs

The message
from John Rumm contains these words:

kW (small k) is a measure of power - the amount of energy in Joules (big
J) that an appliance uses (or produces) in one second.


Well no, its the amount of energy in *kilo* Joules... ;-)


Bugger. You know - it's not safe to rant anywhere these days.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
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The Natural Philosopher
 
Posts: n/a
Default Contrasting oil versus tank LPG central heating costs

Robert wrote:
In article , The Natural
Philosopher writes
Robert wrote:
In article , Andrew Mawson
writes
Has anyone done the figures contrasting running costs of oil or LPG in
a big tank for central heating?

Place we may be moving to has no gas, it was oil back in the 1980's
but the current owner has totally destroyed the C/H system - cut off
copper pipes flush with the solid floors - and installed wall mounted
electric convector heaters "oh they don't cost much to run at all" -
now do I believe that ! Also they are all on the 1970's ring mains so
no doubt grossly overloaded. As it's going to be a total strip out and
refurbish I will probably put a wet system in and fully re-wire but
which fuel is the best choice - no problems with siting tanks as it's
a large plot.

AWEM


Whether you install LPG or oil it's going to cost you an arm and a leg
in installation costs that will never be repaid by any savings that you
make on the reduced running costs of LPG or oil compared to electric
heating. I would suggest that the very first thing that you need to do
is have the existing system checked out by an electrician. It may be
perfectly OK.

Utter ********.

With heating bills up around 1200 quid a year for electric, and 600 quid
a year for oil, and probably 700 quid a year for LPG, in ten years you
will easily repay the costs of fuel run system. Thats just for a
smallish house.

Not to mention that fact that as far as I am concerned, s decent fuel
run CH system adds at least £8k to the property value.


Utter ********

My house is 1700 sq ft total floor area and uses 2000 litres of heating
oil a year. At 11.53 KW/litre for light heating oil that amounts to
11530 KW a year.


Mine is 4000 sq ft and uses about 5000 liters a year.

Also remember that your oil boiler is at best only about 60% efficient.


The cost of 2000 litres of oil at my last fill was .38p per litre total
cost of £798 including 5% VAT.


My last fill of 2400 lites was 900 quid, and its getting worse.

I went lower because I assumed that a decentluy insulated house of half
te square footage could get by with a bit less.

Yours seems fairly poorly insulated.

As my boiler was checked at 93.1% efficiency at the last service that
means the actual total annual heating load for my house is 10737KW.


I very much doubt that it is, in overall energy terms.


If I were to have heated my house by electricity the price per unit at
that time was 6.75p with no standing charge.
The cost of 10737KW of electricity would have been £760.98 including VAT
- an annual saving of £37.02 when comparing electricity to oil.

At an annual loss of £37.02 I would therefore never recover the
installation costs of an oil heating system and would actually be
£370.20 out of pocket after ten years rather than breaking even as you
state.


Electricity is nearer 13p a unit right now.

There is no way that an electrical power station that runs at 50%
efficiency more or less can compete with a 60-70% efficient boiler.

YOur figures are plain wrong


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