How does one go about installing a built-in gas oven with an built-in
inset gas hob in the worktop above it in a compliant way?

The Gas Safety Regulations seem to imply that both the oven and the hob
must have fixed pipework. The only possible way I can think of doing
this would be to connect the oven first (access through the hole in the
worktop above - dead easy) then attach enough fixed pipework to the hob
itself for it to be lowered down and somehow threaded around the units
and the oven to meet up with an isolation valve somewhere accessible (in
the void below the oven perhaps).

Is this potentially very awkward/impossible procedure the only way to do
it without the use of a (now apparently non-compliant) flexible hose for
either appliance?
--
Chris Cowley

Simpler, cheaper and infinitely more sensible would be to buy a
free-standing gas cooker. No fitting probems involved, easily re-sited
or replaced if necessary, just a single flexible pipe coupling
required, designed for the situation you describe.
Just because every other **** in the universe thinks all
kitchens/appliances must be 'fitted' doesn't mean you have to meekly
follow the fashion. It's not a very good fashion in any case as fitted
stuff tends to be highly obsolescent and expensive in the long run.

cheers

Jacob

On 21 Mar 2006 02:44:26 -0800, wrote:

Simpler, cheaper and infinitely more sensible would be to buy a
free-standing gas cooker. No fitting probems involved, easily re-sited
or replaced if necessary, just a single flexible pipe coupling
required, designed for the situation you describe.
Just because every other **** in the universe thinks all
kitchens/appliances must be 'fitted' doesn't mean you have to meekly
follow the fashion. It's not a very good fashion in any case as fitted
stuff tends to be highly obsolescent and expensive in the long run.

Hmmm... I'll take that as an "I don't know" then!
--
Chris Cowley

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 12:55:41 +0000, Owain
wrote:

Well duh, knock a hole through the wall from the lounge and do it that
way innit!

Ahah! Inspired! runs off to find big 'ammer

(No, I don't know seriously. I suspect the likes of Mr Sirret do it with
very skilled pipework.)

The thing is, the union nuts on both the oven and hob have to be done up
at some point, and I can't see how that could be done with both items in
situ. So I'm either missing some clever trick of the trade or some of
the pipework has to be attached to one or t'other before putting them in
place.
--
Chris Cowley

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 10:18:48 +0000, Chris Cowley wrote:

How does one go about installing a built-in gas oven with an built-in
inset gas hob in the worktop above it in a compliant way?

The Gas Safety Regulations seem to imply that both the oven and the hob
must have fixed pipework. The only possible way I can think of doing
this would be to connect the oven first (access through the hole in the
worktop above - dead easy) then attach enough fixed pipework to the hob
itself for it to be lowered down and somehow threaded around the units
and the oven to meet up with an isolation valve somewhere accessible (in
the void below the oven perhaps).

Is this potentially very awkward/impossible procedure the only way to do
it without the use of a (now apparently non-compliant) flexible hose for
either appliance?

On the last (and only) such combo I installed IIRC I used a flexible for
the oven. This was either recommended or at least not forbidden in the
manufacturer's instructions. Since an oven is fairly easily removable
(although obviously not intended to be so by the householder) this does
not seem unreasonable, even though it is not strictly speaking a portable
appliance (or whatever the form of worms is). The only way using fixed
pipework would either require access from the side (or behind) or would
require a lot of unsupported fixed pipework protruding below the oven, and
this would be vulnerable to damage when removing and refitting the oven.

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 14:41:17 GMT, John Stumbles
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 10:18:48 +0000, Chris Cowley wrote:

On the last (and only) such combo I installed IIRC I used a flexible for
the oven. This was either recommended or at least not forbidden in the
manufacturer's instructions.

The instructions for the oven in this case state "Connection with
flexible metallic pipes - mainland Europe only". The only option given
for UK installs is "Connection with rigid metallic pipe".

However, it does recommend 8mm copper tube (and the oven is supplied
with an 8mm to 1/2" BSP nut and olive). As 8mm is fairly "bendy", I
guess I could leave enough extra for the oven to be pulled out the 200mm
or so to allow the union nut to be connected before pushing the whole
shebang into place, but I am not sure if doing that would be frowned
upon or not.
--
Chris Cowley

Chris Cowley wrote:
On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 14:41:17 GMT, John Stumbles
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 10:18:48 +0000, Chris Cowley wrote:

On the last (and only) such combo I installed IIRC I used a flexible for
the oven. This was either recommended or at least not forbidden in the
manufacturer's instructions.

The instructions for the oven in this case state "Connection with
flexible metallic pipes - mainland Europe only". The only option given
for UK installs is "Connection with rigid metallic pipe".

However, it does recommend 8mm copper tube (and the oven is supplied
with an 8mm to 1/2" BSP nut and olive). As 8mm is fairly "bendy", I
guess I could leave enough extra for the oven to be pulled out the 200mm
or so to allow the union nut to be connected before pushing the whole
shebang into place, but I am not sure if doing that would be frowned
upon or not.

Good God! Don't do that! The copper pipe will work harden and fracture
behind the oven.

Can you fix pipework to the two units and pass it into ajoining cabinets.
Then finalise the connections there ( to the side, so to speak )?

R.

--
Richard A Downing FBCS CITP
http://www.langside.org.uk PGP fingerprint:
D682 49A5 7050 E781 229C A2F0 DE1F C040 DE78 53E8

Chris Cowley wrote:
How does one go about installing a built-in gas oven with an built-in
inset gas hob in the worktop above it in a compliant way?

The Gas Safety Regulations seem to imply that both the oven and the hob
must have fixed pipework. The only possible way I can think of doing
this would be to connect the oven first (access through the hole in the
worktop above - dead easy) then attach enough fixed pipework to the hob
itself for it to be lowered down and somehow threaded around the units
and the oven to meet up with an isolation valve somewhere accessible (in
the void below the oven perhaps).

Is this potentially very awkward/impossible procedure the only way to do
it without the use of a (now apparently non-compliant) flexible hose for
either appliance?

You might want to read this thread - I had just the same issue. In my
case the CORGI ended up fixing the oven with a flexible pipe, and I
didn't stop him...

http://tinyurl.com/lxyyd or
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk.d-i-y/browse_frm/thread/3b28572cc846144f/ff0f3b9b8a73af3a?hl=en#ff0f3b9b8a73af3a

David

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 12:55:41 +0000, Owain wrote:

Chris Cowley wrote:
How does one go about installing a built-in gas oven with an built-in
inset gas hob in the worktop above it in a compliant way?
The Gas Safety Regulations seem to imply that both the oven and the hob
must have fixed pipework. The only possible way I can think of doing
this would be to connect the oven first (access through the hole in the
worktop above - dead easy) then attach enough fixed pipework to the hob
itself for it to be lowered down and somehow threaded around the units
and the oven to meet up with an isolation valve somewhere accessible (in
the void below the oven perhaps).

Well duh, knock a hole through the wall from the lounge and do it that
way innit!

(No, I don't know seriously. I suspect the likes of Mr Sirret do it with
very skilled pipework.)

I;d make a hole in the adjecent cupboard with a hole saw just enough to
let tighten/undo and compression nut on the 8mm pipewoirk. But this may be
much harder than it takes to write about it.



--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 19:28:58 +0000, Ed Sirett
wrote:

I;d make a hole in the adjecent cupboard with a hole saw just enough to
let tighten/undo and compression nut on the 8mm pipewoirk. But this may be
much harder than it takes to write about it.

I did think about that, however the *only* way to access the compression
nut on the oven is from above as it's totally obscured by the metal
sides of the oven which have carry handles inset into them.

I'm currently thinking the best method would be to install the oven
without the hob in place, using the fixed 8mm tube, and then drop the
hob in with approx. 30cm of pipework pre-attached to union nut; enough
to take it to the adjacent unit where a compression fitting can be used
(as it will be accessible via the cupboard). Do you have any thoughts on
that?

If the above is non-compliant then I believe there may be absolutely no
way to do this in a complaint manner. I did read Lobster's thread about
this prior to my original post and it seems his fitter was able to get
away with using a cooker hose on the basis that a flexible cooker hose
is not the same thing a "rubber hose" as forbidden in his oven's
installation manual. My oven's manual expressly forbids the use of
"flexible metallic pipe" outside of mainland Europe (dunno why it's safe
in Europe, but not in the UK, but there you go).
--
Chris Cowley

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 17:20:04 +0000, wrote:

Chris Cowley wrote:

However, it does recommend 8mm copper tube (and the oven is supplied
with an 8mm to 1/2" BSP nut and olive). As 8mm is fairly "bendy", I
guess I could leave enough extra for the oven to be pulled out the 200mm
or so to allow the union nut to be connected before pushing the whole
shebang into place, but I am not sure if doing that would be frowned
upon or not.

Good God! Don't do that! The copper pipe will work harden and fracture
behind the oven.

I've just re-read the installation instructions and I must have missed
it previously, but this is exactly how the installation instructions for
the oven tell you how to do it, in fact:-

1. Partially insert the oven into the recess (about 30cm) and operate
on the connection ramp from above...
1B. Insert the 8mm copper pipe into the connection ramp after fitting
the proper nut and olive...
2. Tighten the nuts by means of a 22mm spanner...
3. Completely insert the oven into the recess and secure it as
indicated...
4. Check for perfect sealing of the connection using leak detection
fluid...

As I can't see that this contravenes any of the safety regs, I think
I've just convinced myself that this is exactly what I'm going to do!
--
Chris Cowley

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 22:38:12 GMT, wrote:

I see a problem here. How do you check the connection /after/ the oven is
pushed back into the recess.

Heh, good point. Someone at Electrolux needs a thwack for that. But it's
no problem in practice as I will be using a manometer. I've only ever
used leak detection spray on the screw for the meter test point after
completing the pressure drop tests.

BTW, just after the bit in the installation guide about using leak
detection fluid, it says in bold type: "Never use a flame for the
leak-proof test!". Which made me chuckle.
--
Chris Cowley

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 20:59:43 +0000, Chris Cowley wrote:

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 19:28:58 +0000, Ed Sirett
wrote:

I;d make a hole in the adjecent cupboard with a hole saw just enough to
let tighten/undo and compression nut on the 8mm pipewoirk. But this may be
much harder than it takes to write about it.

I did think about that, however the *only* way to access the compression
nut on the oven is from above as it's totally obscured by the metal
sides of the oven which have carry handles inset into them.

I'm currently thinking the best method would be to install the oven
without the hob in place, using the fixed 8mm tube, and then drop the
hob in with approx. 30cm of pipework pre-attached to union nut; enough
to take it to the adjacent unit where a compression fitting can be used
(as it will be accessible via the cupboard). Do you have any thoughts on
that?

If the above is non-compliant then I believe there may be absolutely no
way to do this in a complaint manner. I did read Lobster's thread about
this prior to my original post and it seems his fitter was able to get
away with using a cooker hose on the basis that a flexible cooker hose
is not the same thing a "rubber hose" as forbidden in his oven's
installation manual. My oven's manual expressly forbids the use of
"flexible metallic pipe" outside of mainland Europe (dunno why it's safe
in Europe, but not in the UK, but there you go).

The hob needs to be fixed from below to secure it properly in its hole.
Moving a pipe 30cm seems quite a way even for 8mm pipe.
I agree the drop test with the manometer will probably be the only way to
really check for leaks after it's in place.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 23:07:18 GMT, Lobster
wrote:

Chris Cowley wrote:
On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 20:18:14 +0000, Ed Sirett
wrote:


The hob needs to be fixed from below to secure it properly in its hole.
Moving a pipe 30cm seems quite a way even for 8mm pipe.
I agree the drop test with the manometer will probably be the only way to
really check for leaks after it's in place.


Thanks Ed, your comments are much appreciated. The hob didn't arrive
until today, and I didn't previously realise it needed to be fixed from
below. It looks like the only option for this oven (regardless of
whether it has a hob above it or not) is to use 8mm tube and slide it in
30cm after connecting it. I will fix the tube to the rear of the oven
housing unit and put a reasonably large loop in it to avoid stressing
the pipework any more than is necessary.

That's the same scenario I had, with the hob. I really can't see how
what your proposing above can be a safer solution than using a proper
flexible hose, even if the instructions stipulate it. Anyway I think
that's where my Corgi was coming from when he fitted mine the way he did.

Yup - a flexible hose does seem like a potentially better solution on
the face of it. Especially as my oven states that "flexible metallic
pipe" (which is what I understand a typical cooker hose to be) is fine
in mainland Europe. I might be inclined to do the same as your CORGI
fitter if my particular oven's manual didn't expressly forbid it for UK
installs, but as this is DIY and I will be taking ultimate
responsibility for it, I am being completely anal about following the
letter of the regs and the installation guide.

I don't have the same level of experience as a typical CORGI gas fitter,
so I don't feel able to bend the rules in the same way that someone who
does this sort of work day in and day out might do, but I certainly
wouldn't have a problem if I got a trusted CORGI in and he chose to use
a cooker hose for the oven.
--
Chris Cowley