Bending copper pipe to wide radius
I need to bend some 22mm copper pipe into quite a wide radius curve - is it possible to use conventional pipe benders to do this (the type with long handles)? It's just that from looking at them, they appear to have a fixed radius former - or is there a way of increasing the radius of the curve you make? Above all, I need to produce smooth curves - is there a better way of doing it? Any advice would be appreciated... Nigel Lord |
Bending copper pipe to wide radius
"Nige" wrote in message ... I need to bend some 22mm copper pipe into quite a wide radius curve - is it possible to use conventional pipe benders to do this (the type with long handles)? It's just that from looking at them, they appear to have a fixed radius former - or is there a way of increasing the radius of the curve you make? Above all, I need to produce smooth curves - is there a better way of doing it? Any advice would be appreciated... get a pipe spring, http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...12076&ts=74183 £ 1.99 then you can have any radius you like -- Vass |
Bending copper pipe to wide radius
Nige wrote:
I need to bend some 22mm copper pipe into quite a wide radius curve How wide is quite wide? |
Bending copper pipe to wide radius
"Nige" wrote in message ... I need to bend some 22mm copper pipe into quite a wide radius curve - is it possible to use conventional pipe benders to do this (the type with long handles)? It's just that from looking at them, they appear to have a fixed radius former - or is there a way of increasing the radius of the curve you make? Above all, I need to produce smooth curves - is there a better way of doing it? Any advice would be appreciated... Cap up one end, fill with fine sand, cap the other end. Bend over suitable structure to make the curve. This could be you knee or two metal rollers. First anneal it. Where the curve is to be heat the copper to cherry red then quench in water. This makes it more pliable. You will need a substantial blow lamp to anneal it. You could try it cold first, it may work. When making the bend, do not make sharp pulls, Gentlly move up and down the bend pulling a small amount at a time. |
Bending copper pipe to wide radius
Nige wrote:
I need to bend some 22mm copper pipe into quite a wide radius curve - is it possible to use conventional pipe benders to do this (the type with long handles)? It's just that from looking at them, they appear to have a fixed radius former - or is there a way of increasing the radius of the curve you make? Above all, I need to produce smooth curves - is there a better way of doing it? Any advice would be appreciated... For very wide radius, you can use your knee, and just pull on the pipe till it just yields, then move along a bit. For anything other than very shallow bends (say a meter radius), this method won't really work. |
Bending copper pipe to wide radius
"Vass" wrote in message ... "Nige" wrote in message ... I need to bend some 22mm copper pipe into quite a wide radius curve - is it possible to use conventional pipe benders to do this (the type with long handles)? It's just that from looking at them, they appear to have a fixed radius former - or is there a way of increasing the radius of the curve you make? Above all, I need to produce smooth curves - is there a better way of doing it? Any advice would be appreciated... get a pipe spring, http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...12076&ts=74183 £ 1.99 then you can have any radius you like Only as long as the length of the spring. |
Bending copper pipe to wide radius
Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Vass" wrote... "Nige" wrote... I need to bend some 22mm copper pipe into quite a wide radius curve - get a pipe spring, http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...12076&ts=74183 £ 1.99 then you can have any radius you like Only as long as the length of the spring. You could bend a long radius with a shorter spring - you'd have to keep moving the spring along and bending just that part of the tube - it might be a bit tedious, though. |
Bending copper pipe to wide radius
"Chris Bacon" wrote in message ... Doctor Drivel wrote: "Vass" wrote... "Nige" wrote... I need to bend some 22mm copper pipe into quite a wide radius curve - get a pipe spring, http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...12076&ts=74183 £ 1.99 then you can have any radius you like Only as long as the length of the spring. You could bend a long radius with a shorter spring - you'd have to keep moving the spring along and bending just that part of the tube - it might be a bit tedious, though. With a large radius it is best to use sand.. |
Bending copper pipe to wide radius
Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Chris Bacon" wrote You could bend a long radius with a shorter spring - you'd have to keep moving the spring along and bending just that part of the tube - it might be a bit tedious, though. With a large radius it is best to use sand.. Quite possibly - if the radius is really long you wouldn't need anything! I wonder what it's for... gardening? |
Bending copper pipe to wide radius
"Chris Bacon" wrote in message ... Doctor Drivel wrote: "Chris Bacon" wrote You could bend a long radius with a shorter spring - you'd have to keep moving the spring along and bending just that part of the tube - it might be a bit tedious, though. With a large radius it is best to use sand.. Quite possibly Not quite possible it is. This is not open to debate. |
Bending copper pipe to wide radius
On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:50:30 +0000, Nige
wrote: I need to bend some 22mm copper pipe into quite a wide radius curve - is it possible to use conventional pipe benders to do this (the type with long handles)? It's just that from looking at them, they appear to have a fixed radius former - or is there a way of increasing the radius of the curve you make? Above all, I need to produce smooth curves - is there a better way of doing it? Any advice would be appreciated... A 22mm pipe spring from a shed, mine comes from Wickes, a padded knee, and a modicum of skill, and strength. -- Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk 17,000 free e-books at Project Gutenberg! http://www.gutenberg.net For Yorkshire Dialect go to www.hyphenologist.co.uk/songs/ |
Bending copper pipe to wide radius
In article ews.net,
"Doctor Drivel" writes: Cap up one end, fill with fine sand, cap the other end. Bend over suitable structure to make the curve. This could be you knee or two metal rollers. First anneal it. Where the curve is to be heat the copper to cherry red then quench in water. This makes it more pliable. You will need a substantial blow lamp to anneal it. You could try it cold first, it may work. When making the bend, do not make sharp pulls, Gentlly move up and down the bend pulling a small amount at a time. I've done this to bend 28mm copper, for which I don't have a proper pipe bender. However, your annealing process is for wrong metal. Copper is annealed at 700-800C (can be done as low as just over 400C, but you have to hold it at that temperature for a long time). There is no state change on cooling copper, so quenching is not required -- you can cool it over as long a period as you like. The annealing process for copper is reversed by flexing and vibration, not by slow cooling. If you quench it just for ease of handling, watch out for being burned by steam and boiling water spraying out. For the sand, make sure it's dry or you'll have difficulty getting it out of the pipe afterwards. Even so, I sucked a large cotten wool ball through the pipe with a vacuum cleaner several times to remove as much sand residue as possible (this was a gas pipe, so I don't want sand getting into the boiler). A sand bag makes a good bending former. Do not try to bend near the end of the pipe -- saw any excess off afterwards. For 22mm pipe rather than 28mm, I would however use a bending spring for this purpose. You should still anneal the pipe before bending it though. -- Andrew Gabriel |
Bending copper pipe to wide radius
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
"Doctor Drivel" writes: First anneal it. Where the curve is to be heat the copper to cherry red then quench in water. your annealing process is for wrong metal. Copper is annealed at 700-800C (can be done as low as just over 400C, but you have to hold it at that temperature for a long time). There is no state change on cooling copper, so quenching is not required -- you can cool it over as long a period as you like. The annealing process for copper is reversed by flexing and vibration, not by slow cooling. I'm not sure about your terminology or where the last sentence comes in, but heating to red hot and quenching is fine. |
Bending copper pipe to wide radius
No-one remember Peter Parry's instructions regarding
pipe bending: http://tinyurl.com/bq5fq ? Mungo :-) |
Bending copper pipe to wide radius
"Chris Bacon" wrote in message ... Andrew Gabriel wrote: "Doctor Drivel" writes: First anneal it. Where the curve is to be heat the copper to cherry red then quench in water. your annealing process is for wrong metal. Copper is annealed at 700-800C (can be done as low as just over 400C, but you have to hold it at that temperature for a long time). There is no state change on cooling copper, so quenching is not required -- you can cool it over as long a period as you like. The annealing process for copper is reversed by flexing and vibration, not by slow cooling. I'm not sure about your terminology or where the last sentence comes in, but heating to red hot and quenching is fine. The fact that it works does not mean that it is the right technique. As Andrew says, the right method for a soft anneal is to bring the copper to dull red (600-800C), not cherry red (900-1650C). The method of cooling is also irrelevant. Quenching may be convenient, but it can also be quite dangerous if done improperly. Copper will anneal just as well if left to cool in air. Colin Bignell |
Bending copper pipe to wide radius
In article ,
Chris Bacon writes: Andrew Gabriel wrote: "Doctor Drivel" writes: First anneal it. Where the curve is to be heat the copper to cherry red then quench in water. your annealing process is for wrong metal. Copper is annealed at 700-800C (can be done as low as just over 400C, but you have to hold it at that temperature for a long time). There is no state change on cooling copper, so quenching is not required -- you can cool it over as long a period as you like. The annealing process for copper is reversed by flexing and vibration, not by slow cooling. I'm not sure about your terminology or where the last sentence comes in, but heating to red hot and quenching is fine. Didn't say it wasn't, just pointing out it isn't necessary to go to those lengths. In particular, quenching is used to preserve crystaline structures which would not normally exist at lower temperatures, by super-cooling them into a preserved state. There is no such cystaline state change with copper on cooling, so it's pointless. With copper, the reverse process to annealing is work-hardening, which is triggered by flexing and vibration. For bending a large thick piece of copper, it should be reannealed during the bending process, or bent at a temperature which is high enough to keep annealing it throughout the process. This counteracts the work hardening caused by the bending itself. One way this used to be done with very large copper pipes was to fill them with molten lead under pressure instead of sand, at a suitable temperature. -- Andrew Gabriel |
Bending copper pipe to wide radius
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
For bending a large thick piece of copper, it should be reannealed during the bending process, or bent at a temperature which is high enough to keep annealing it throughout the process. This counteracts the work hardening caused by the bending itself. Yes, yes... One way this used to be done with very large copper pipes was to fill them with molten lead under pressure instead of sand, at a suitable temperature. I want you to tell me more about this, please. |
Bending copper pipe to wide radius
nightjar nightjar@ wrote:
"Chris Bacon" wrote in message Andrew Gabriel wrote "Doctor Drivel" writes: First anneal it. Where the curve is to be heat the copper to cherry red then quench in water. your annealing process is for wrong metal. Copper is annealed at 700-800C (can be done as low as just over 400C, but you have to hold it at that temperature for a long time). There is no state change on cooling copper, so quenching is not required -- you can cool it over as long a period as you like. The annealing process for copper is reversed by flexing and vibration, not by slow cooling. I'm not sure about your terminology or where the last sentence comes in, but heating to red hot and quenching is fine. The fact that it works does not mean that it is the right technique. And so - it will work, which is what I *said*. As Andrew says, the right method for a soft anneal is to bring the copper to dull red (600-800C), not cherry red (900-1650C). The method of cooling is also irrelevant. Quenching may be convenient, but it can also be quite dangerous if done improperly. Copper will anneal just as well if left to cool in air. I'm afraid you have imparted no extra knowlege whatever. |
Bending copper pipe to wide radius
In article ,
Nige wrote: I need to bend some 22mm copper pipe into quite a wide radius curve - is it possible to use conventional pipe benders to do this (the type with long handles)? It's just that from looking at them, they appear to have a fixed radius former - or is there a way of increasing the radius of the curve you make? No - they work at a fixed radius, unless you can buy other formers. Above all, I need to produce smooth curves - is there a better way of doing it? The other common ways to bend pipe is to use a spring, or fill it with sand, plug the ends then bend it to what you want. -- *Never put off until tomorrow what you can avoid altogether * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Bending copper pipe to wide radius
"Chris Bacon" wrote in message ... nightjar nightjar@ wrote: .... The fact that it works does not mean that it is the right technique. And so - it will work, which is what I *said*. You obviously take no pride in your work if you do not prefer to use the right method. Colin Bignell |
Bending copper pipe to wide radius
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 00:01:33 -0000, "nightjar" nightjar@insert my surname
here.uk.com wrote: "Chris Bacon" wrote in message ... nightjar nightjar@ wrote: ... The fact that it works does not mean that it is the right technique. And so - it will work, which is what I *said*. You obviously take no pride in your work if you do not prefer to use the right method. *Right* is a concept which exists only in the minds of *people*. There are always different ideas of *right* held by different groups of people. What OP is saying is follow my opinion of right. -- Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk 17,000 free e-books at Project Gutenberg! http://www.gutenberg.net For Yorkshire Dialect go to www.hyphenologist.co.uk/songs/ |
Bending copper pipe to wide radius
"Dave Fawthrop" wrote in message ... .... *Right* is a concept which exists only in the minds of *people*. There are always different ideas of *right* held by different groups of people... Copper anneals at dull red heat and melts within the range of cherry red heat. Presuming that melting the tube is an undesirable result, the right method is set by physics and is not simply an opinion. Colin Bignell |
Bending copper pipe to wide radius
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 08:20:23 -0000, "nightjar" nightjar@insert my surname
here.uk.com wrote: "Dave Fawthrop" wrote in message .. . ... *Right* is a concept which exists only in the minds of *people*. There are always different ideas of *right* held by different groups of people... Copper anneals at dull red heat and melts within the range of cherry red heat. Presuming that melting the tube is an undesirable result, the right method is set by physics and is not simply an opinion. The ?laws? of science, including physics, are *only* an agreement by scientists in general that this is the best idea of reality we have at the moment. Popper IIRC believes that all "Scientific laws" will be overturned or drastically modified within 200 years of formulation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_law A physical law, scientific law, or a law of nature is a scientific generalization based on empirical observations. They are conclusions or hypotheses which have been confirmed by repeated scientific experiments over many years, and which have become accepted universally within the scientific community. Also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Popper A classic example of laws being found wrong is Newton's Laws of Motion, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_laws_of_motion which still describe motion of most bodies in an *Engineering* sense perfectly. However they fail on an atomic scale when Quantum physics describes atomic and sub atomic particles better. Also they fail on an astronomical scale where Einstein's theories of relativity give better results -- Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk 17,000 free e-books at Project Gutenberg! http://www.gutenberg.net For Yorkshire Dialect go to www.hyphenologist.co.uk/songs/ |
Bending copper pipe to wide radius
nightjar wrote:
"Chris Bacon" wrote... nightjar wrote: The fact that it works does not mean that it is the right technique. And so - it will work, which is what I *said*. You obviously take no pride in your work if you do not prefer to use the right method. Are you really a contemptible pillock? |
Bending copper pipe to wide radius
In article ,
Chris Bacon writes: Andrew Gabriel wrote: One way this used to be done with very large copper pipes was to fill them with molten lead under pressure instead of sand, at a suitable temperature. I want you to tell me more about this, please. Not sure I have any more info. I got it from an old book on using copper (which is also where I learned of filling with sand to bend pipes). There was a photograph of two young factory workers bending a pipe this way. Next time I'm over at my parents', I'll dig out the book and see if it says anymore. It's hardly suitable for 'd-i-y' pipe bending though;-) -- Andrew Gabriel |
Bending copper pipe to wide radius
Dave Fawthrop wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 08:20:23 -0000, "nightjar" nightjar@insert my surname here.uk.com wrote: "Dave Fawthrop" wrote in message . .. ... *Right* is a concept which exists only in the minds of *people*. There are always different ideas of *right* held by different groups of people... Copper anneals at dull red heat and melts within the range of cherry red heat. Presuming that melting the tube is an undesirable result, the right method is set by physics and is not simply an opinion. The ?laws? of science, including physics, are *only* an agreement by scientists in general that this is the best idea of reality we have at the moment. Popper IIRC believes that all "Scientific laws" will be overturned or drastically modified within 200 years of formulation. Which is utterly irrelevant. Deeper understanding of the physics of copper does not change the underlying physics of how it behaves when heated. The mechanics of forming copper have not changed throughout human history - and what happens when you bend it and heat it is unlikely to change in the future. New physical laws have to fit within existing observations, which means that it's very, very unlikely anyone will work out a different way to anneal copper using heat. Many areas of physics have been explored with exquisitely sensitive instruments, and all the existing laws work down to those scales. If you have a new theory, it is only useful if it conforms to all existing experiments - or it's patently false, or if it differs in some way from existing theory in some way that's testable. |
Bending copper pipe to wide radius
Many thanks for all the useful replies to my question. The sand & heat method did the trick... Nigel Lord In article , Nige wrote: I need to bend some 22mm copper pipe into quite a wide radius curve - is it possible to use conventional pipe benders to do this (the type with long handles)? It's just that from looking at them, they appear to have a fixed radius former - or is there a way of increasing the radius of the curve you make? Above all, I need to produce smooth curves - is there a better way of doing it? Any advice would be appreciated... Nigel Lord |
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