Poor shower
 

I've just moved into a new house, and I have a problem with the
shower. It's a mixer shower in a cubicle gravity fed from the hot
water cylinder on the same floor, and the cold tank in the loft just
above. It produces not so much a shower as a dribble.

My options as I see it a

1. Replace the mixer valve with a pumped shower. This would appear to
be the easiest option, as I would have thought it just requires an
electrical supply, the water inlets being already in place.

2. Install a pump. This appears as though it will have to go in the
airing cupboard, and I'm assuming will therefore need a new hot and
cold feed to the shower valve, as well as the wiring.
-Two questions he
a) can a pump be fitted in the loft above the height of the shower
head and the hot water tank? Most typical installations show them
being fitted on a level with the hot water cylinder, but if it were
fitted in the loft, I could presumably place it in the line of the hot
& cold feeds, thereby reducing the amount of plumbing needed; and
b) could I take a spur or loop from the immersion heater?

3. Replace the existing vented cylinder with a Megaflo. A bit of a
nuclear option, I would have thought, but there was one in the rented
flat I've just moved from, and the shower there was almost too
powerful. There appears to be good mains pressure here. Is it
feasible to simply swap one cylinder for another and bypass the cold
water tank, or is there more to it than that?

Any thoughts on the pros and cons of these options are welcome.
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have you strayed?"

Poor shower
 

Hugo Nebula wrote:
I've just moved into a new house, and I have a problem with the
shower. It's a mixer shower in a cubicle gravity fed from the hot
water cylinder on the same floor, and the cold tank in the loft just
above. It produces not so much a shower as a dribble.


I can't understand why people go to the extent of installing a shower
cubical and then use a gravity fed shower mixer?

Put a proper shower unit in.
--
Sir Benjamin Middlethwaite

Poor shower
 

"The3rd Earl Of Derby" wrote in message
k...
Hugo Nebula wrote:
I've just moved into a new house, and I have a problem with the
shower. It's a mixer shower in a cubicle gravity fed from the hot
water cylinder on the same floor, and the cold tank in the loft just
above. It produces not so much a shower as a dribble.


I can't understand why people go to the extent of installing a shower
cubical and then use a gravity fed shower mixer?

Perhaps because for a lot of people it will work. Our neighbour has one on
the ground floor, cold water tank in the loft - perfectly acceptable flow.
Naturally upstairs would be a no-no (as in the OPs case).


Put a proper shower unit in.
--
Sir Benjamin Middlethwaite

Poor shower
 

"Hugo Nebula" abuse@localhost wrote in message
...

I've just moved into a new house, and I have a problem with the
shower. It's a mixer shower in a cubicle gravity fed from the hot
water cylinder on the same floor, and the cold tank in the loft just
above. It produces not so much a shower as a dribble.

My options as I see it a

1. Replace the mixer valve with a pumped shower. This would appear to
be the easiest option, as I would have thought it just requires an
electrical supply, the water inlets being already in place.

I assume you mean a pump inside the casing. You may need to fit a Surrey
flange.

2. Install a pump. This appears as though it will have to go in the
airing cupboard, and I'm assuming will therefore need a new hot and
cold feed to the shower valve, as well as the wiring.
-Two questions he
a) can a pump be fitted in the loft above the height of the shower
head and the hot water tank? Most typical installations show them
being fitted on a level with the hot water cylinder, but if it were
fitted in the loft, I could presumably place it in the line of the hot
& cold feeds, thereby reducing the amount of plumbing needed; and
b) could I take a spur or loop from the immersion heater?

You may need a Surrey flange, and some pipework alterations here and there.
Pumps usually only give 1 bar pressure, which is not that much; OK though as
it is better than running around a shower to get wet.. Pumps which deliver
3 bar are around £500. Then you may need to change the cartridge in the
shower to a high pressure cartridge. What make and type of shower mixer is
it?

3. Replace the existing vented cylinder with a Megaflo. A bit of a
nuclear option, I would have thought, but there was one in the rented
flat I've just moved from, and the shower there was almost too
powerful. There appears to be good mains pressure here. Is it
feasible to simply swap one cylinder for another and bypass the cold
water tank, or is there more to it than that?

Avoid a unvented cylinder (Megaflow). You need an annual service by a BBA
plumber. If no service an insurance company will not pay out if any damage.
They can explode.

You have a number of options to get a decent shower.

1. Install a condensing combi and have only the shower off the water
section. The CH side operates as a normal system boiler heating the
cylinder. You will then have a 3 barish shower (£500 plus using pump) and
a new high efficient boiler too. A combi can be had for the price of the
high pressure 3 bar pump. Well worth considering as it will save you money
in gas bills.

2. Install a shower coil cylinder. This will replace the existing cylinder
and retains the tank. A straight swap. It has a coil inside for running
the shower from the mains. It instantly heats the incoming mains water for
the shower. The heat inside the cylinder transfers its heat to the shower
coil.
http://www.rcmgroup.co.uk/mains_pres...ower/index.htm

3. Install a DHW only heat bank or thermal store. These gives high pressure
mains water at "all" taps and can eliminate the cold water tank. It can
also go in the loft liberating needed space in the house. At low pressure
and no annual service charge.

4. Install a venturi shower mixer that runs from low pressure hot and high
pressure cold. It must be with in the makers pressure guide for hot and
cold supplies.

Poor shower
 

Doctor Drivel wrote:
Pumps usually only give 1 bar pressure, which is not that much;

Like this one perhaps (1.3 bar for £139.99):
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=89207

or this one (1.5 bar for £99.99):
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=83326

or this (2.0 bar for £169.99):
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=70280

or this (2.25 bar for £229.99):
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=21514

Pumps which deliver 3 bar are around £500.

Like this (3.3 bar for £279.99):
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=22151

or this (3.3 bar for £399.99):
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=48689

Poor shower
 

In article ,
Paul Andrews wrote:
Perhaps because for a lot of people it will work. Our neighbour has one
on the ground floor, cold water tank in the loft - perfectly acceptable
flow. Naturally upstairs would be a no-no (as in the OPs case).

It can work perfectly well with a head of about 3 metres if you use a
suitable shower fed via 22mm pipe and take care with the pipe runs.

--
*Lottery: A tax on people who are bad at math.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Poor shower
 

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
You may need a Surrey flange, and some pipework alterations here and
there. Pumps usually only give 1 bar pressure, which is not that much;
OK though as it is better than running around a shower to get wet..

Confusing flow with pressure again, pet?

If someone upended a bucket of water over you would that be high pressure?

The sort of shower where you have to 'run around to get wet' is invariably
high pressure - an electric one fed from mains water.

--
*Work is for people who don't know how to fish.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Poor shower
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

You may need a Surrey flange, and some pipework alterations here and
there. Pumps usually only give 1 bar pressure, which is not that much;
OK though as it is better than running around a shower to get wet..

Confusing flow with pressure again, pet?

...this senile man he calls me pet
...of inverted gender he must be set
...he gives us info we don't need to know
...down our throats he rams it so

...instictively you will spy
...in newsgroups with DIY
...attempting wisdom this fool will try

...the info's so poor tis clearly true
...so how does this garbage affect you?

...well take no heed of babble and drool
...as this one is a confirmed fool

...he marches around in CAT boots of yellow
...this strange brain damaged sort of fellow

...misadvice he has lots to say
...so don't give this yellow booted half-wit the time of day

Poor shower
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In ,

Paul Andrews wrote:
Perhaps because for a lot of people it will work. Our neighbour has one
on the ground floor, cold water tank in the loft - perfectly acceptable
flow. Naturally upstairs would be a no-no (as in the OPs case).

It can work perfectly well

Sure it can

** snip senility **

Poor shower
 

"Sadly" wrote in message
oups.com...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Pumps usually only give 1 bar pressure, which is not that much;

Like this one perhaps (1.3 bar for £139.99):
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=89207

or this one (1.5 bar for £99.99):
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=83326

or this (2.0 bar for £169.99):
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=70280

or this (2.25 bar for £229.99):
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=21514

Pumps which deliver 3 bar are around £500.

Like this (3.3 bar for £279.99):
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=22151

or this (3.3 bar for £399.99):
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=48689

And sadly will scream the house down and and will not last too long. There
you go. Give them all a wide berth.

Poor shower
 

On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 12:44:21 +0000, Hugo Nebula wrote:

I've just moved into a new house, and I have a problem with the
shower. It's a mixer shower in a cubicle gravity fed from the hot
water cylinder on the same floor, and the cold tank in the loft just
above. It produces not so much a shower as a dribble.

My options as I see it a

1. Replace the mixer valve with a pumped shower. This would appear to
be the easiest option, as I would have thought it just requires an
electrical supply, the water inlets being already in place.

2. Install a pump. This appears as though it will have to go in the
airing cupboard, and I'm assuming will therefore need a new hot and
cold feed to the shower valve, as well as the wiring.
-Two questions he
a) can a pump be fitted in the loft above the height of the shower
head and the hot water tank? Most typical installations show them
being fitted on a level with the hot water cylinder, but if it were
fitted in the loft, I could presumably place it in the line of the hot
& cold feeds, thereby reducing the amount of plumbing needed; and
b) could I take a spur or loop from the immersion heater?

3. Replace the existing vented cylinder with a Megaflo. A bit of a
nuclear option, I would have thought, but there was one in the rented
flat I've just moved from, and the shower there was almost too
powerful. There appears to be good mains pressure here. Is it
feasible to simply swap one cylinder for another and bypass the cold
water tank, or is there more to it than that?

Any thoughts on the pros and cons of these options are welcome.

Firstly there may simply be something wrong with the existing arrangements
which may well work well enough for you when corrected.

With a thermostatic mixer a failure of either supply will result in next
to nothing. The head may be totally clogged with lime or other crap.
Sometimes people put on a fancy head which requires a better supply,
simply going back to a more modest shower head can make things much
better.

1 & 2 are essentially the same option although neither will work (and
may not be needed) if there is an underlying problem with the supplies.
Most pumps need to be installed low to keep the running inlet pressure up
when in operation. A low inlet pressure encourages cavitation which can
damage a pump.

3 Is the best practice and will work well for a shower even if the main is
only a 20mm MDPE, 15mm or "7 pound" supply if the pressure is good. It
won't come cheap and may not give a much better bath fill rate unless the
main is upped to 25mm MDPE.

PS
Do you get free building notices as part of the job ?!?
Apparently holding a G3 ticket is not enough to be able to self-certify
the notification for an unvented through CORGI you also need IoP
membership.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

Poor shower
 

On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 14:20:48 -0000, a particular chimpanzee named
"Doctor Drivel" randomly hit the keyboard and
produced:

What make and type of shower mixer is
it?

Looks similar to http://tinyurl.com/d6mu6, which will operate to 10
bar.
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have you strayed?"

Poor shower
 

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
n.co.uk...
On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 12:44:21 +0000, Hugo Nebula wrote:

I've just moved into a new house, and I have a problem with the
shower. It's a mixer shower in a cubicle gravity fed from the hot
water cylinder on the same floor, and the cold tank in the loft just
above. It produces not so much a shower as a dribble.

My options as I see it a

1. Replace the mixer valve with a pumped shower. This would appear to
be the easiest option, as I would have thought it just requires an
electrical supply, the water inlets being already in place.

2. Install a pump. This appears as though it will have to go in the
airing cupboard, and I'm assuming will therefore need a new hot and
cold feed to the shower valve, as well as the wiring.
-Two questions he
a) can a pump be fitted in the loft above the height of the shower
head and the hot water tank? Most typical installations show them
being fitted on a level with the hot water cylinder, but if it were
fitted in the loft, I could presumably place it in the line of the hot
& cold feeds, thereby reducing the amount of plumbing needed; and
b) could I take a spur or loop from the immersion heater?

3. Replace the existing vented cylinder with a Megaflo. A bit of a
nuclear option, I would have thought, but there was one in the rented
flat I've just moved from, and the shower there was almost too
powerful. There appears to be good mains pressure here. Is it
feasible to simply swap one cylinder for another and bypass the cold
water tank, or is there more to it than that?

Any thoughts on the pros and cons of these options are welcome.

Firstly there may simply be something wrong with the existing arrangements
which may well work well enough for you when corrected.

It may be a high pressure mixer on allow pressure system. Very common.

Poor shower
 

On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 17:27:09 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Sadly" wrote in message
roups.com...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Pumps usually only give 1 bar pressure, which is not that much;

Like this one perhaps (1.3 bar for £139.99):
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=89207

or this one (1.5 bar for £99.99):
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=83326

or this (2.0 bar for £169.99):
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=70280

or this (2.25 bar for £229.99):
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=21514

Pumps which deliver 3 bar are around £500.

Like this (3.3 bar for £279.99):
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=22151

or this (3.3 bar for £399.99):
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=48689

And sadly will scream the house down and and will not last too long. There
you go. Give them all a wide berth.


********.

Possibly if you buy a crappy one from Lidl.

If you buy a decent product such as Stuart Turner it will last 10-20
years and be quiet as well.


--

..andy

Poor shower
 

"Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message
...
On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 17:27:09 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

or this (3.3 bar for £399.99):
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=48689

And sadly will scream the house
down and and will not last too long. There
you go. Give them all a wide berth.

********.

Possibly if you buy a crappy one from Lidl.

If you buy a decent product such as
Stuart Turner it will last 10-20
years and be quiet as well.

But Matt! All those Screwfix things are nasty and cheap. A 3 bar ST is
£500. May as well but a proper cheap to run condensing combi and have 4 bar
and no noise. Matt at times you are dumb.

Poor shower
 

On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 22:28:12 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 17:27:09 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

or this (3.3 bar for £399.99):
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=48689

And sadly will scream the house
down and and will not last too long. There
you go. Give them all a wide berth.

********.

Possibly if you buy a crappy one from Lidl.

If you buy a decent product such as
Stuart Turner it will last 10-20
years and be quiet as well.

All those Screwfix things are nasty and cheap. A 3 bar ST is
£500. May as well but a proper cheap to run condensing combi and have 4 bar
and no noise.

What are you going to do if the mains pressure is 1-1.5 bar and the
flow rate is 12lpm with no economic possibility of making a change?


--

..andy

Poor shower
 

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 22:28:12 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 17:27:09 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

or this (3.3 bar for £399.99):
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=48689

And sadly will scream the house
down and and will not last too long. There
you go. Give them all a wide berth.

********.

Possibly if you buy a crappy one from Lidl.

If you buy a decent product such as
Stuart Turner it will last 10-20
years and be quiet as well.

All those Screwfix things are nasty and cheap. A 3 bar ST is
£500. May as well but a proper cheap to run condensing combi and have 4
bar
and no noise.

What are you going to do if the mains pressure is 1-1.5 bar and the
flow rate is 12lpm with no economic possibility of making a change?

He has excellent flow and pressure, so not a problem.

Poor shower
 

On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 19:01:08 +0000, a particular chimpanzee named Ed
Sirett randomly hit the keyboard and
produced:

With a thermostatic mixer a failure of either supply will result in next
to nothing. The head may be totally clogged with lime or other crap.
Sometimes people put on a fancy head which requires a better supply,
simply going back to a more modest shower head can make things much
better.

Don't think the head is clogged; I replaced the shower head (with a
cheapo one from Wickes), plus it's a soft water area. Is there
anything else I should look for?

PS
Do you get free building notices as part of the job ?!?

You'd think! I have to get a more senior surveyor involved to make
sure there's no 'corruption'.
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have you strayed?"

Poor shower
 

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Firstly there may simply be something wrong with the existing
arrangements which may well work well enough for you when corrected.

It may be a high pressure mixer on allow pressure system. Very common.

Glad you've learnt from me the difference between pressure and flow...

--
*I like cats, too. Let's exchange recipes.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Poor shower
 

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
But Matt! All those Screwfix things are nasty and cheap.

So an electric motor driving a pump needs to be expensive, but when
driving a power tool the cheaper the better? Think you've not thought this
one through again...

A 3 bar ST is £500. May as well but a proper cheap to run condensing
combi and have 4 bar and no noise.

You guarantee 4 bar off the mains?

Matt at times you are dumb.

You are all the time.

--
*Virtual reality is its own reward*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Poor shower
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

Firstly there may simply be something wrong with the existing
arrangements which may well work well enough for you when corrected.

It may be a high pressure mixer on allow pressure system. Very common.

Glad

** snip rampant senility ***

A shame really.

Poor shower
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

But Matt! All those Screwfix things are nasty and cheap.

So an electric motor driving a pump needs to be expensive, but when
driving a power tool the cheaper the better?

What is he on about? He wants to run a power shower pump with an electric
drill.

** snip rampant senility **

Sad isn't it.

Poor shower
 

Sadly wrote:

Like this one perhaps (1.3 bar for £139.99):
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=89207

As Andy said you would probably be better off with a Stuart Turner pump.
I fitted one of these for someone recently:

http://www.plumb-warehouse.co.uk/ish...hopscr312.html

Does a nice job and very quiet in operation. It gave a respectable
shower without being into the "skin you alive" sort of performance.

Something like:

http://www.plumb-warehouse.co.uk/ish...hopscr313.html

Will give more force if you like it that way without getting into silly
money.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Poor shower
 

The message ews.net
from "Doctor Drivel" contains these words:

4. Install a venturi shower mixer that runs from low pressure hot and high
pressure cold. It must be with in the makers pressure guide for hot and
cold supplies.

Don't be put off a venturi shower just because Dribble recommended it.
You do need to avoid the cheap rubbish though.

--
Roger Chapman

Poor shower
 

"Roger" wrote Rogerness in message
k...
The message ews.net

from "Doctor Drivel" contains these words:

4. Install a venturi shower mixer that runs
from low pressure hot and high
pressure cold. It must be with in the
makers pressure guide for hot and
cold supplies.

Don't be put off a venturi shower just because Dribble recommended it.
You do need to avoid the cheap rubbish though.

Roger, sensible people will take notice of what I wrote. Roger, you have
never seen a venturi shower.

Poor shower
 

Hugo Nebula wrote:
I've just moved into a new house, and I have a problem with the
shower. It's a mixer shower in a cubicle gravity fed from the hot
water cylinder on the same floor, and the cold tank in the loft just
above. It produces not so much a shower as a dribble.


Just a thought - it's not just an airlock in the feed pipework is it?
Reason I ask is 'cause that's exactly the problem I have with my new
shower/bath/toilet. Will try to fix by attaching cold bath tap to
hosepipe tonight.

Poor shower
 

The message ews.net
from "Doctor Drivel" contains these words:

Don't be put off a venturi shower just because Dribble recommended it.
You do need to avoid the cheap rubbish though.

Roger, sensible people will take notice of what I wrote. Roger, you have
never seen a venturi shower.

You really are a stupid bugger Dribble. You have no way of knowing
whether or not I have seen one. In fact I installed one for my sister
last year and when I get round tuit I will put one in for myself.

--
Roger Chapman

Poor shower
 

"Roger" wrote overt and shameles Rogerness in
message k...
The message ews.net
from "Doctor Drivel" contains these words:

Don't be put off a venturi shower just because Dribble recommended it.
You do need to avoid the cheap rubbish though.

Roger, sensible people will take notice of what I wrote. Roger, you have
never seen a venturi shower.

You really are

Roger, you have never seen a venturi shower.

** snip Rogerness **