Hi everyone,

We've just had our house rewired and part of the work was to fit a new
programmer and digital thermostat to our central heating system. It's
just one of the many major jobs on our list since buying our place last
year.

Before the rewiring started, we had a crusty old digital programmer and
an old-style rotary room thermostat. The electricians finished the
rewiring yesterday but failed to connect up the central heating
electrical components properly, so last night we had no heat from our
radiators. When I went into the garage to investigate, the boiler was
running fine but the pump for the central heating wasn't doing
anything.

The electricians came back this morning to sort it out... and their
solution was to remove the room thermostat altogether! As I understand
it, the boiler and pump will now run continuously when the programmer
is set to be on. This just doesn't sound right to me, and certainly
sounds expensive! We don't have thermostatic radiator valves at present
(although plan to have them fitted on all but the bathroom radiator at
some point in the near future).

So here's the first question: does this setup sound wrong to anyone
else, or is it just me? Reading around Google Groups, it seems that
this might actually contravene 2002 building regs.

The electrician's parting shot was to say we should get a plumber in if
we want the room thermostat installed again. Personally, I'd have
thought wiring the boiler and pump to the appropriate gubbins would be
an electrician's job. Assuming the electrician's a dead loss, who
should I call? A plumber? The folks who service our oil boiler? Another
electrician?

Final question (if it can be answered briefly!): how exactly should the
programmer and room thermostat be wired to the boiler and pump? Before
the rewiring started, I could swear that the the room thermostat
connected to the pump (and not the boiler) and the programmer to the
boiler. I guess that means that the boiler was still trying to heat
water when it wasn't needed before the rewiring work started? It just
wasn't get pumped around....

It wouldn't surprise me if it was incorrect before the rewiring, as
much of the work on the house has been done by cowboys prior to us
buying it. We've already found a lot of other things that were done
without any attention to building regulations.

If anyone could offer their opinions, it would be an enormous help!

Many thanks,

Chris Wood

pretended :

The electrician's parting shot was to say we should get a plumber in if
we want the room thermostat installed again. Personally, I'd have
thought wiring the boiler and pump to the appropriate gubbins would be
an electrician's job. Assuming the electrician's a dead loss, who
should I call? A plumber? The folks who service our oil boiler? Another
electrician?

Certainly not a plumber. An heating engineer, or a competant
electrician.

Final question (if it can be answered briefly!): how exactly should the
programmer and room thermostat be wired to the boiler and pump? Before
the rewiring started, I could swear that the the room thermostat
connected to the pump (and not the boiler) and the programmer to the
boiler.

That would depend upon the system. A room 'stat would be essential if
TRV's are not fitted. Some systems also include a 'stat when TRV's are
fitted.

If you want detailed replies, then it would be best to provide full
information - Boiler model? Is there an automatic valve of some sort to
switch between HW and CH? Time controller model?

--

Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

wrote in
oups.com:

Although it was a long post, it seemed a bit short of specifics!

If you look he

http://content.honeywell.com/uk/homes/applicat.htm

you'll find pointers to a lot of info.

You *do* need a room stat, connected into your programmer.

If it's a programmable digital one (try it, you'll like it), the CH can be
left on at the programmer contiuously, the stat will look after the
temperature.

You need the radiator in the same room _not_ to have a TRV or the stat will
fight the TRV, all other rads can have TRVs.

That's very basic; no doubt if I'm very wrong on any point the corrections
will pour in, but I guess you wante to get started HTH

mike

Thanks for the quick responses, folks! I realised as soon as I posted
the message that I left out the details, but I hadn't expected anyone
to get back so quickly!

It's a gravity system with a pump. After posting the message I found
the FAQ for plumbing and it described how the thermostat should go in
series with the programmer on the way to the pump for CH. The HW should
go straight to the boiler.

The new programmer is a Drayton Tempus 7 and we have (had?) a Drayton
Digistat 1 thermostat. It's an oil-based system. The programmer is in
the hall and the thermostat is in the living room.

The boiler is a Camray Oil Fired Pressure Jet Boiler 51/67. It has a
Riello 40 oil pump. The water pump is a Grundfos Selectric UPS 15-50.

I don't know what to look for regarding the valve Harry suggested - as
a first time buyer this is the first time I've ever had to think about
a central heating setup beyond programming a timer! I can't see
anything obvious, at least.

I'll check out the link, Mike - thank you!

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
wrote:

Hi everyone,

We've just had our house rewired and part of the work was to fit a new
programmer and digital thermostat to our central heating system. It's
just one of the many major jobs on our list since buying our place
last year.

Before the rewiring started, we had a crusty old digital programmer
and an old-style rotary room thermostat. The electricians finished the
rewiring yesterday but failed to connect up the central heating
electrical components properly, so last night we had no heat from our
radiators. When I went into the garage to investigate, the boiler was
running fine but the pump for the central heating wasn't doing
anything.

The electricians came back this morning to sort it out... and their
solution was to remove the room thermostat altogether! As I understand
it, the boiler and pump will now run continuously when the programmer
is set to be on. This just doesn't sound right to me, and certainly
sounds expensive! We don't have thermostatic radiator valves at
present (although plan to have them fitted on all but the bathroom
radiator at some point in the near future).

So here's the first question: does this setup sound wrong to anyone
else, or is it just me? Reading around Google Groups, it seems that
this might actually contravene 2002 building regs.

The electrician's parting shot was to say we should get a plumber in
if we want the room thermostat installed again. Personally, I'd have
thought wiring the boiler and pump to the appropriate gubbins would be
an electrician's job. Assuming the electrician's a dead loss, who
should I call? A plumber? The folks who service our oil boiler?
Another electrician?

Final question (if it can be answered briefly!): how exactly should
the programmer and room thermostat be wired to the boiler and pump?
Before the rewiring started, I could swear that the the room
thermostat connected to the pump (and not the boiler) and the
programmer to the boiler. I guess that means that the boiler was
still trying to heat water when it wasn't needed before the rewiring
work started? It just wasn't get pumped around....

It wouldn't surprise me if it was incorrect before the rewiring, as
much of the work on the house has been done by cowboys prior to us
buying it. We've already found a lot of other things that were done
without any attention to building regulations.

If anyone could offer their opinions, it would be an enormous help!

Many thanks,

Chris Wood

It sounds to me as you have a gravity (convection) HW and pumped CH system.
So, for HW, just the boiler needs to run. For CH, the boiler *and* pump need
to run. The usual,way of achieving this electrically is a follows:

The HW output from the programmer is connected to the boiler. The CH output
from the programmer is connected to the pump via a room thermostat. An
internal link in the programmer forces HW on whenever CH is on - even if the
manual HW switch is off - to ensure that the boiler runs for the CH.

You definitely need a room stat in circuit - otherwise the boiler and pump
will run continuously, and you will fry.

Even when working 'correctly', this system won't meet current building regs
because it doesn't have a boiler interlock. It doesn't actually *need* to
meet them - because they don't apply retrospectively to old systems. But
it's still worthwhile doing a few things to improve efficiency.

The term 'boiler interlock' refers to a method of shutting the system down
completely when both HW and CH demands are satisfied - rather than allowing
the boiler to cycle on its own thermostat when it's not not needed - thereby
wasting energy. In order to achieve this you need thermostats on *both*
circuits plus the logic to shut the boiler down. The easiest way to achieve
this on a gravity system is to install a motorised valve in the gravity
circuit plus a cylinder thermostat on the hot water cylinder, and connect it
all up as per C-Plan shown in
http://content.honeywell.com/uk/homes/systems.htm

The alternative - which is even better - is to convert to a fully pumped
system - either S-Plan or Y-Plan (also shown in the Honeywell link, above) -
but that probably requires extensive plumbing mods whereas the plumbing for
C-Plan is minimal.

Which ever way you go, fitting TRVs on all the radiators except the one in
the room where the room stat is located will improve efficiency even more.
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
wrote:

Thanks for the quick responses, folks! I realised as soon as I posted
the message that I left out the details, but I hadn't expected anyone
to get back so quickly!

It's a gravity system with a pump. After posting the message I found
the FAQ for plumbing and it described how the thermostat should go in
series with the programmer on the way to the pump for CH. The HW
should go straight to the boiler.

The new programmer is a Drayton Tempus 7 and we have (had?) a Drayton
Digistat 1 thermostat. It's an oil-based system. The programmer is in
the hall and the thermostat is in the living room.

The boiler is a Camray Oil Fired Pressure Jet Boiler 51/67. It has a
Riello 40 oil pump. The water pump is a Grundfos Selectric UPS 15-50.

I don't know what to look for regarding the valve Harry suggested - as
a first time buyer this is the first time I've ever had to think about
a central heating setup beyond programming a timer! I can't see
anything obvious, at least.

I'll check out the link, Mike - thank you!


I posted my previous response before I saw this - but I guessed correctly
that it's a gravity HW system.

There won't be any valves at present - but i suggest that you should
seriously consider adding a valve to convert to C-Plan, as per my other
post.
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

"Set Square" wrote in
:



http://content.honeywell.com/uk/homes/systems.htm

*That's* the page I was looking for.

Honeywell can hide information better than anyone I know; even with all the
right keywords I couldn't find it.

I'll bookmark it, ....but I always lose the bookmarks!


mike

Just a note to say thanks to everyone who replied - especially Set
Square!

I feel I know enough now to approach the appropriate people and get the
situation sorted once and for all!

All the best,

Chris

wrote:
Hi everyone,

We've just had our house rewired and part of the work was to fit a new
programmer and digital thermostat to our central heating system. It's
just one of the many major jobs on our list since buying our place last
year.

Before the rewiring started, we had a crusty old digital programmer and
an old-style rotary room thermostat. The electricians finished the
rewiring yesterday but failed to connect up the central heating
electrical components properly, so last night we had no heat from our
radiators. When I went into the garage to investigate, the boiler was
running fine but the pump for the central heating wasn't doing
anything.

The electricians came back this morning to sort it out... and their
solution was to remove the room thermostat altogether! As I understand
it, the boiler and pump will now run continuously when the programmer
is set to be on. This just doesn't sound right to me, and certainly
sounds expensive! We don't have thermostatic radiator valves at present
(although plan to have them fitted on all but the bathroom radiator at
some point in the near future).

So here's the first question: does this setup sound wrong to anyone
else, or is it just me? Reading around Google Groups, it seems that
this might actually contravene 2002 building regs.

The electrician's parting shot was to say we should get a plumber in if
we want the room thermostat installed again. Personally, I'd have
thought wiring the boiler and pump to the appropriate gubbins would be
an electrician's job. Assuming the electrician's a dead loss, who
should I call? A plumber? The folks who service our oil boiler? Another
electrician?

Final question (if it can be answered briefly!): how exactly should the
programmer and room thermostat be wired to the boiler and pump? Before
the rewiring started, I could swear that the the room thermostat
connected to the pump (and not the boiler) and the programmer to the
boiler. I guess that means that the boiler was still trying to heat
water when it wasn't needed before the rewiring work started? It just
wasn't get pumped around....

It wouldn't surprise me if it was incorrect before the rewiring, as
much of the work on the house has been done by cowboys prior to us
buying it. We've already found a lot of other things that were done
without any attention to building regulations.

If anyone could offer their opinions, it would be an enormous help!

Many thanks,

Chris Wood

What a joker, I wouldnt get them back. Yes of course you need a room
thermostat. TRVs alone, even if you have them, are not a good option,
as theyre neither accurate, nor programmable, nor easily controlled.

I hope you havent paid them in full. This is the advantage of paying by
cheque, or saying ok send me the bill and I'll pay within 7 days.

If you havent paid, you can get someone competent to sort it all out
and deduct all costs from the bill. Personally I'd only pay after they
agreed the revised sum as full and final settlement. Its clear youre
dealing with cowboys there.

If you have paid, I'd write to them and say unless they pay for to have
it fixed within x days, you'll take it up with trading standards. And
if they dont, do. Unauthorised removal of the stat from the premises
quite likely constitutes theft as well. Trading standards are gonna
love them.


NT

wrote:
wrote:

Hi everyone,

We've just had our house rewired and part of the work was to fit a new
programmer and digital thermostat to our central heating system. It's
just one of the many major jobs on our list since buying our place last
year.

Before the rewiring started, we had a crusty old digital programmer and
an old-style rotary room thermostat. The electricians finished the
rewiring yesterday but failed to connect up the central heating
electrical components properly, so last night we had no heat from our
radiators. When I went into the garage to investigate, the boiler was
running fine but the pump for the central heating wasn't doing
anything.

The electricians came back this morning to sort it out... and their
solution was to remove the room thermostat altogether! As I understand
it, the boiler and pump will now run continuously when the programmer
is set to be on. This just doesn't sound right to me, and certainly
sounds expensive! We don't have thermostatic radiator valves at present
(although plan to have them fitted on all but the bathroom radiator at
some point in the near future).

So here's the first question: does this setup sound wrong to anyone
else, or is it just me? Reading around Google Groups, it seems that
this might actually contravene 2002 building regs.

The electrician's parting shot was to say we should get a plumber in if
we want the room thermostat installed again. Personally, I'd have
thought wiring the boiler and pump to the appropriate gubbins would be
an electrician's job. Assuming the electrician's a dead loss, who
should I call? A plumber? The folks who service our oil boiler? Another
electrician?

Final question (if it can be answered briefly!): how exactly should the
programmer and room thermostat be wired to the boiler and pump? Before
the rewiring started, I could swear that the the room thermostat
connected to the pump (and not the boiler) and the programmer to the
boiler. I guess that means that the boiler was still trying to heat
water when it wasn't needed before the rewiring work started? It just
wasn't get pumped around....

It wouldn't surprise me if it was incorrect before the rewiring, as
much of the work on the house has been done by cowboys prior to us
buying it. We've already found a lot of other things that were done
without any attention to building regulations.

If anyone could offer their opinions, it would be an enormous help!

Many thanks,

Chris Wood


What a joker, I wouldnt get them back. Yes of course you need a room
thermostat. TRVs alone, even if you have them, are not a good option,
as theyre neither accurate, nor programmable, nor easily controlled.

I hope you havent paid them in full. This is the advantage of paying by
cheque, or saying ok send me the bill and I'll pay within 7 days.

If you havent paid, you can get someone competent to sort it all out
and deduct all costs from the bill. Personally I'd only pay after they
agreed the revised sum as full and final settlement. Its clear youre
dealing with cowboys there.

If you have paid, I'd write to them and say unless they pay for to have
it fixed within x days, you'll take it up with trading standards. And
if they dont, do. Unauthorised removal of the stat from the premises
quite likely constitutes theft as well. Trading standards are gonna
love them.

I thought Trading Standards always said they never got involved with
individual cases.

D

On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:07:04 -0000, "Set Square"
wrote:

The term 'boiler interlock' refers to a method of shutting the system down
completely when both HW and CH demands are satisfied - rather than allowing
the boiler to cycle on its own thermostat when it's not not needed - thereby
wasting energy. In order to achieve this you need thermostats on *both*
circuits plus the logic to shut the boiler down. The easiest way to achieve
this on a gravity system is to install a motorised valve in the gravity
circuit plus a cylinder thermostat on the hot water cylinder, and connect it
all up as per C-Plan shown in
http://content.honeywell.com/uk/homes/systems.htm

The alternative - which is even better - is to convert to a fully pumped
system - either S-Plan or Y-Plan (also shown in the Honeywell link, above) -
but that probably requires extensive plumbing mods whereas the plumbing for
C-Plan is minimal.

Make sure you don't have a Primatic cylinder if you go for this
option!

Mark.

"David Hearn" wrote in message
...
wrote:
wrote:

Hi everyone,

We've just had our house rewired and part of the work was to fit a new
programmer and digital thermostat to our central heating system. It's
just one of the many major jobs on our list since buying our place last
year.

Before the rewiring started, we had a crusty old digital programmer and
an old-style rotary room thermostat. The electricians finished the
rewiring yesterday but failed to connect up the central heating
electrical components properly, so last night we had no heat from our
radiators. When I went into the garage to investigate, the boiler was
running fine but the pump for the central heating wasn't doing
anything.

The electricians came back this morning to sort it out... and their
solution was to remove the room thermostat altogether! As I understand
it, the boiler and pump will now run continuously when the programmer
is set to be on. This just doesn't sound right to me, and certainly
sounds expensive! We don't have thermostatic radiator valves at present
(although plan to have them fitted on all but the bathroom radiator at
some point in the near future).

So here's the first question: does this setup sound wrong to anyone
else, or is it just me? Reading around Google Groups, it seems that
this might actually contravene 2002 building regs.

The electrician's parting shot was to say we should get a plumber in if
we want the room thermostat installed again. Personally, I'd have
thought wiring the boiler and pump to the appropriate gubbins would be
an electrician's job. Assuming the electrician's a dead loss, who
should I call? A plumber? The folks who service our oil boiler? Another
electrician?

Final question (if it can be answered briefly!): how exactly should the
programmer and room thermostat be wired to the boiler and pump? Before
the rewiring started, I could swear that the the room thermostat
connected to the pump (and not the boiler) and the programmer to the
boiler. I guess that means that the boiler was still trying to heat
water when it wasn't needed before the rewiring work started? It just
wasn't get pumped around....

It wouldn't surprise me if it was incorrect before the rewiring, as
much of the work on the house has been done by cowboys prior to us
buying it. We've already found a lot of other things that were done
without any attention to building regulations.

If anyone could offer their opinions, it would be an enormous help!

Many thanks,

Chris Wood


What a joker, I wouldnt get them back. Yes of course you need a room
thermostat. TRVs alone, even if you have them, are not a good option,
as theyre neither accurate, nor programmable, nor easily controlled.

I hope you havent paid them in full. This is the advantage of paying by
cheque, or saying ok send me the bill and I'll pay within 7 days.

If you havent paid, you can get someone competent to sort it all out
and deduct all costs from the bill. Personally I'd only pay after they
agreed the revised sum as full and final settlement. Its clear youre
dealing with cowboys there.

If you have paid, I'd write to them and say unless they pay for to have
it fixed within x days, you'll take it up with trading standards. And
if they dont, do. Unauthorised removal of the stat from the premises
quite likely constitutes theft as well. Trading standards are gonna
love them.

I thought Trading Standards always said they never got involved with
individual cases.

D

Should take this up with the Assesing authority as this a notifiable job
under Part P. You may have some redress from th scheme operator, if you
checked they are registered. If not you may have to bite the bullet, not all
sparkies are any good at heating controls, and some are excellent.

Regards

Steve