Council has amputated boiler flue. What are the alternatives?
 

This is the kind of thing that tends to happen in Spain, where I live.

The council came along to visit some work being down on the outside of
the building containing my flat, saw several flue pipes sticking out,
said that repair subsidies would not be forthcoming if they stayed, and
ordered the workmen to chop them off forthwith and replace them with
ventilation panels. This has had the unfortunate side effect that,
while the building looks much prettier, the boilers affected have
ceased to work.

The building committee is determined to persist with subsidies, and the
council has said that we need to either move the current gas
installations to the back of the building - which is completely
unfeasible - or replace them with electric ones. Within 7 days.

Since the council is believed to be happy as long as it looks as if its
edicts have been carried out, what we're looking for is a way of
venting the boilers which achieves a flat-to-wall outside profile while
allowing to-and-froing of air intake and exhaust in a way that will
satisfy the gas company when they carry out their next inspection. Any
ideas?

Mad_Trev wrote:
This is the kind of thing that tends to happen in Spain, where I live.

The council came along to visit some work being down on the outside of
the building containing my flat, saw several flue pipes sticking out,
said that repair subsidies would not be forthcoming if they stayed, and
ordered the workmen to chop them off forthwith and replace them with
ventilation panels. This has had the unfortunate side effect that,
while the building looks much prettier, the boilers affected have
ceased to work.
snip
Since the council is believed to be happy as long as it looks as if its
edicts have been carried out, what we're looking for is a way of
venting the boilers which achieves a flat-to-wall outside profile while
allowing to-and-froing of air intake and exhaust in a way that will
satisfy the gas company when they carry out their next inspection. Any
ideas?

Most boilers have two means of fluing, either coaxial, or seperate piped.
If you replace the flue with the seperate pipe option, and put the
intake/outlet some 1m apart, behind the ventilation screens, with
ducting to

On 4 Oct 2005 13:30:12 -0700, "Mad_Trev" wrote:

This is the kind of thing that tends to happen in Spain, where I live.

The council came along to visit some work being down on the outside of
the building containing my flat, saw several flue pipes sticking out,
said that repair subsidies would not be forthcoming if they stayed, and
ordered the workmen to chop them off forthwith and replace them with
ventilation panels. This has had the unfortunate side effect that,
while the building looks much prettier, the boilers affected have
ceased to work.

The building committee is determined to persist with subsidies, and the
council has said that we need to either move the current gas
installations to the back of the building - which is completely
unfeasible - or replace them with electric ones. Within 7 days.

Since the council is believed to be happy as long as it looks as if its
edicts have been carried out, what we're looking for is a way of
venting the boilers which achieves a flat-to-wall outside profile while
allowing to-and-froing of air intake and exhaust in a way that will
satisfy the gas company when they carry out their next inspection. Any
ideas?

Wait till the council go away and the put back whatever they took
down.

Rick

"Mad_Trev" wrote in message
ups.com...
This is the kind of thing that tends to happen in Spain, where I live.

The council came along to visit some work being down on the outside of
the building containing my flat, saw several flue pipes sticking out,
said that repair subsidies would not be forthcoming if they stayed, and
ordered the workmen to chop them off forthwith and replace them with
ventilation panels. This has had the unfortunate side effect that,
while the building looks much prettier, the boilers affected have
ceased to work.

The building committee is determined to persist with subsidies, and the
council has said that we need to either move the current gas
installations to the back of the building - which is completely
unfeasible - or replace them with electric ones. Within 7 days.

Since the council is believed to be happy as long as it looks as if its
edicts have been carried out, what we're looking for is a way of
venting the boilers which achieves a flat-to-wall outside profile while
allowing to-and-froing of air intake and exhaust in a way that will
satisfy the gas company when they carry out their next inspection. Any
ideas?


What about prettying up the flue? Does the council allow chimneys? If
so, you could perhaps put in a fake pot concealing the gas flue?
What type of flue did you have? I take it you cannot modify the roof,
thinking about it, since you have a flat, so you're limited to venting
through
the wall.. Are your flues balanced (coaxial ) or the older type? Would help
if more info provided.

Andy.

On 4 Oct 2005 13:30:12 -0700, "Mad_Trev" wrote:

| This is the kind of thing that tends to happen in Spain, where I live.

| Any
| ideas?

Move back to the UK?

--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk
The London suicide bombers killed innocent commuters.
Animal rights terrorists and activists kill innocent patients.

On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 07:33:36 +0100, Dave Fawthrop
wrote:

On 4 Oct 2005 13:30:12 -0700, "Mad_Trev" wrote:

| This is the kind of thing that tends to happen in Spain, where I live.

| Any
| ideas?

Move back to the UK?

Bribe the Council? (It happens here as there's no other way some
things could get past planning).

Offer to buy some equipment for the local school?

T i m

On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 00:20:11 +0100, "Andy"
wrote:


"Mad_Trev" wrote in message
oups.com...
This is the kind of thing that tends to happen in Spain, where I live.

The council came along to visit some work being down on the outside of
the building containing my flat, saw several flue pipes sticking out,
said that repair subsidies would not be forthcoming if they stayed, and
ordered the workmen to chop them off forthwith and replace them with
ventilation panels. This has had the unfortunate side effect that,
while the building looks much prettier, the boilers affected have
ceased to work.

The building committee is determined to persist with subsidies, and the
council has said that we need to either move the current gas
installations to the back of the building - which is completely
unfeasible - or replace them with electric ones. Within 7 days.

Since the council is believed to be happy as long as it looks as if its
edicts have been carried out, what we're looking for is a way of
venting the boilers which achieves a flat-to-wall outside profile while
allowing to-and-froing of air intake and exhaust in a way that will
satisfy the gas company when they carry out their next inspection. Any
ideas?


What about prettying up the flue? Does the council allow chimneys? If
so, you could perhaps put in a fake pot concealing the gas flue?
What type of flue did you have? I take it you cannot modify the roof,
thinking about it, since you have a flat, so you're limited to venting
through
the wall.. Are your flues balanced (coaxial ) or the older type? Would help
if more info provided.

Andy.


Or, move to Mexico.

BB
--
www.kruse.co.uk/
Elvis does my SEO

Thanks Andy and Ian Stirling for the response. Andy, you're correct,
there are no roof options. The flue is coaxial and comes out of a
Chaffoteaux & Maury boiler. I'll be able to get hold of more details
later today.

Warm water sometimes comes on. I can't figure out a causal explanation
for this, but suspect (speaking as a complete ignoramus) that it has
something to do with airflows on the street side. I guess that we're
somewhere on the border between it working and it not working. That's
why one of the things I was interested in exploring was the possiblity
of using a different vent. The one the workmen slapped on before taking
down the scaffolding (4th floor flat...) is a tight grille, which I
guess has roughly the effect of sticking a pigeon in the tube. One
obvious solution would be to tear off the vent, but I suspect this
would not go down well with the gas company, who are due shortly to
give the installation a 4-yearly safety check.

To the rest of you: Yes, people here often do take receipt of the
subsidies and then undo all the (aesthetic) improvements the council
told them to make, putting the airco back on the balcony etc etc etc.
Unfortunately the incredibly slow bureaucracy here means that subsidies
take up to a year to be adjudicated, by which time the nifty Italian
woman in the front room will probably have drawn her own conclusions.
Mexico is unlikely to be better than Spain in this respect, and I
believe it rains in the UK.

I think the model comes from this range
http://www.chaffoteaux.co.uk/minimahe_005.php, or from its equivalent 8
years ago. The layout and the flue arrangements look the same

http://www.chaffoteaux.co.uk/pdf/min..._and_serve.pdf has
diagrams of the current range, which on p20 seems to suggest that the
pipe be fitted flush with the exterior wall anyway. On our installation
prior to the chop, they had it poking 50cm out of the wall with a
little sombrero hung on the end

Disguise your flue as something built by Gaudi (a fish maybe)

On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 13:30:12 -0700, Mad_Trev wrote:

This is the kind of thing that tends to happen in Spain, where I live.

The council came along to visit some work being down on the outside of
the building containing my flat, saw several flue pipes sticking out,
said that repair subsidies would not be forthcoming if they stayed, and
ordered the workmen to chop them off forthwith and replace them with
ventilation panels. This has had the unfortunate side effect that,
while the building looks much prettier, the boilers affected have
ceased to work.

The building committee is determined to persist with subsidies, and the
council has said that we need to either move the current gas
installations to the back of the building - which is completely
unfeasible - or replace them with electric ones. Within 7 days.

Since the council is believed to be happy as long as it looks as if its
edicts have been carried out, what we're looking for is a way of
venting the boilers which achieves a flat-to-wall outside profile while
allowing to-and-froing of air intake and exhaust in a way that will
satisfy the gas company when they carry out their next inspection. Any
ideas?

I've got a collection of bad gas fitting pictures from my holiday in
Spain. Unfortunately none of them were quite as bad as what you say has
happened here.

If what happened to you happened here there would be a something of a
stir as the HSE and/or CORGI dragged the council through the courts.

I would expect that the boilers stop when the flames die due to lack of
oxygen. In any case even if they half work the likelihood is that they
will be rapidly sooting up. If there is any possibility of the flue gasses
getting back into the building then there is a real hazard.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

You need a lawyer mate, nobody should interfere with a flue or any
associated part of a flueing system unless qualified to do so! From
what you said it sounds like the council have behaved unlawfully and
should be made to answer for playing with peoples lives, carbon
monoxide kills, take photos of everything , contact CORGI 01256372300
explain it to them and find out who the spanish equivalent of them are
and phone them. you might not even need a lawyer, they ****ed up your
boiler and left you and your neighbours in an unsafe situation, people
might die.

"Mad_Trev" wrote in message
oups.com...
http://www.chaffoteaux.co.uk/pdf/min..._and_serve.pdf has
diagrams of the current range, which on p20 seems to suggest that the
pipe be fitted flush with the exterior wall anyway. On our installation
prior to the chop, they had it poking 50cm out of the wall with a
little sombrero hung on the end
I think you may have answered your own question here. I have no
idea why it would stick 50cm out from the wall, if a normal coaxial
flue, and though I haven't looked at the pdf file, I suspect it will show
a streamlined looking cowl poking no more than 10cm out of the wall, if
that.
It may be possible to mount it completely flush with the wall, especially if
you
flare the opening in the masonry slightly. You need to examine the regs for
the positioning of flues, there may well be one in the pdf files on the
chaffoteaux
website.
I agree with the other posters, what the council has done is verging
on
criminal damage, and if they have crimped the end of the flue together when
they
cut it, they are endangering life and limb. Still, that's why we have the
term
'Spanish Practices', eh?!
Let us know what happens,

Andy.

I think you may have answered your own question here. I have no
idea why it would stick 50cm out from the wall, if a normal coaxial
flue, and though I haven't looked at the pdf file, I suspect it will show
a streamlined looking cowl poking no more than 10cm out of the wall, if
that.
It may be possible to mount it completely flush with the wall, especially if
you
flare the opening in the masonry slightly. You need to examine the regs for
the positioning of flues, there may well be one in the pdf files on the
chaffoteaux
website.

Andy, thanks very much for your help. I looked on the previous page of
the installation booklet and they seem to want the exterior flue tube
to protrude slightly from the outside wall and then the interior flue
tube to protrude from the exterior. Your suggestion of recessing the
whole caboodle makes sense to me (speaking as a fairly dazed novice)
and then perhaps banging a highly permeable vent on the outside to
satisfy the grille fetishists at city hall. I've taken the liberty of
drawing a picture (sorry, it's a stoopid BMP) of what I think it would
look like: http://oreneta.com/baldie/flue.bmp

The legal angle is being pursued, although our man seems to have fled
his wife and taken refuge somewhere out in wine country. I believe this
is also a Spanish Practice.

In article .com
, Mad_Trev writes
I think you may have answered your own question here. I have no
idea why it would stick 50cm out from the wall, if a normal coaxial
flue, and though I haven't looked at the pdf file, I suspect it will show
a streamlined looking cowl poking no more than 10cm out of the wall, if
that.
It may be possible to mount it completely flush with the wall, especially if
you
flare the opening in the masonry slightly. You need to examine the regs for
the positioning of flues, there may well be one in the pdf files on the
chaffoteaux
website.

Andy, thanks very much for your help. I looked on the previous page of
the installation booklet and they seem to want the exterior flue tube
to protrude slightly from the outside wall and then the interior flue
tube to protrude from the exterior. Your suggestion of recessing the
whole caboodle makes sense to me (speaking as a fairly dazed novice)
and then perhaps banging a highly permeable vent on the outside to
satisfy the grille fetishists at city hall. I've taken the liberty of
drawing a picture (sorry, it's a stoopid BMP) of what I think it would
look like: http://oreneta.com/baldie/flue.bmp

A fine sketch :-): If you recess the lot behind a single grille you may run
into trouble with the exhaust air not dispersing properly and recirculating
back into the inlet which would upset the boiler's operation.

Try a bit of parallel thinking, the exhaust flue (in the middle) sticks out
furthest to separate the inlet a & exhaust gasses, ok if that can't be done,
think about separating them another way, fabricate (or have fabricated) a
collar that will allow the exhaust pipe to stuck through but will cause the
inlet gasses to be drawn from the side, attach a short duct to this to draw
inlet gas from say a foot away from the exhaust. Then recess both inlet &
exhaust behind separate grilles. Note that such a collar/arrangement is in
common use with many boilers to convert concentric to separate flues,
even if they are not available for your boiler you may be able to source one
for another boiler to use as a starting point.
--
fred

Try a bit of parallel thinking, the exhaust flue (in the middle) sticks out
furthest to separate the inlet a & exhaust gasses, ok if that can't be done,
think about separating them another way, fabricate (or have fabricated) a
collar that will allow the exhaust pipe to stuck through but will cause the
inlet gasses to be drawn from the side, attach a short duct to this to draw
inlet gas from say a foot away from the exhaust. Then recess both inlet &
exhaust behind separate grilles. Note that such a collar/arrangement is in
common use with many boilers to convert concentric to separate flues,
even if they are not available for your boiler you may be able to source one
for another boiler to use as a starting point.

Thanks Fred, that's a very good one and may yet come in handy if the
next para doesn't work out

More developments on the political front. The council's senior
bureaucrat was ambushed yesterday after lunch, denies all
responsibility, recognises the need to leave modest flues on some old
buildings (no sombrero ban either) because of difficulties of
alternative solutions etc, conclusions: it's all the builder's fault.
So the silly *******s may have to abseil down the building and
reinstall the flues. Do you think I could turn this into a telly series?