Gravity Fed Oil Pump?
 

Our oil tank used to sit up high on concrete blocks, however we were
recently advised by the man who serviced our boiler that we could
happily site the oil tank on the floor and the boiler would pull the
oil through. This we have done - we were having some ladnscaping done
and took the opportunity to move it slightly and put it on slabs - this
was done by the landscapers.

I have just tried to bleed the boiler (something I have done before
myself) but with no success. I phoned another heating engineer who
told me that my boiler must be gravity fed and the tank shouldn't sit
on the floor - I'm inclined to agree with him and think I was badly
advised first time.

My boiler is a trianco and the burner is Riello/RBL.

The new chap is suggesting putting in a different burner as you cannot
fit a different pump to the burner I've got. He can fit a recon one
for =A3200. This seems fair to me and I think is what I'm going to go
for.

I would be grateful for opinions on this in case I am being badly
advised again. I could go and argue the toss with the original man who
advised me in the first place, but I don't think I will have a leg to
stand on.

wrote in message
ups.com...
Our oil tank used to sit up high on concrete blocks, however we were
recently advised by the man who serviced our boiler that we could
happily site the oil tank on the floor and the boiler would pull the
oil through. This we have done - we were having some ladnscaping done
and took the opportunity to move it slightly and put it on slabs - this
was done by the landscapers.


An indication of the relative levels before and after also the length of
pipe and size would enable us to get an idea of what is involved. Also
whether the tank is empty or full or somewhere between.

I have just tried to bleed the boiler (something I have done before
myself) but with no success. I phoned another heating engineer who
told me that my boiler must be gravity fed and the tank shouldn't sit
on the floor - I'm inclined to agree with him and think I was badly
advised first time.

Maybe but there are a hell of a lot of chancers out there. I get very
depressed by the state of some of the "jobs" I come across, supposedly
installed by professionals. Most of the problems can be readily overcome by
simple application of o level physics but this is apparently beyond some
installers.

My boiler is a trianco and the burner is Riello/RBL.

Nothing wrong with either of those.

The new chap is suggesting putting in a different burner as you cannot
fit a different pump to the burner I've got. He can fit a recon one
for £200. This seems fair to me and I think is what I'm going to go
for.

Hes a chancer trying to take money from your pocket and pout it into his!
forget it and look at the problem from an engineering viewpoint.

I would be grateful for opinions on this in case I am being badly
advised again. I could go and argue the toss with the original man who
advised me in the first place, but I don't think I will have a leg to
stand on.

Assuming your tank fuel level is above the burner the pump should prime if
the pipe is not blocked or kinked. You could find a problem if it is
restricted by kink or its size/length but without the info I asked for first
its not possible to say with confidence. If the tank fuel level is below the
burner it will not self prime and you will need to intervene manually to
achieve priming. In extreme cases it might be neccessary to employ a
dearator device but give me the info first.

BTW where are you located?

John

The Oil tank is about 1/3 full - the tank is now probably lower than
the pump - the oil is definitely not coming through of it's own accord
so the level could be below the pump. The pipe is about 35 metres of
10mm copper.

The pipe runs from the tank, down underground, along, then up, along a
bit and down, then along again underground until it rises at the
boiler.

I have tried waiting for gravity to push the oil through (taken the
pipe off the pump) and also tried sucking it through - this seems to
get the oil through the pip, but it drops back again.

The boiler and burner will probably be inexcess of 20 years old.

I'm in Norfolk

cheers

Jeremy

The Oil tank is about 1/3 full - the tank is now probably lower than
the pump - the oil is definitely not coming through of it's own accord
so the level could be below the pump. The pipe is about 35 metres of
10mm copper.

The pipe runs from the tank, down underground, along, then up, along a
bit and down, then along again underground until it rises at the
boiler.

I have tried waiting for gravity to push the oil through (taken the
pipe off the pump) and also tried sucking it through - this seems to
get the oil through the pip, but it drops back again.

The boiler and burner will probably be inexcess of 20 years old.

I'm in Norfolk

cheers

Jeremy

used his keyboard to write :
The Oil tank is about 1/3 full - the tank is now probably lower than
the pump - the oil is definitely not coming through of it's own accord
so the level could be below the pump. The pipe is about 35 metres of
10mm copper.

The pipe runs from the tank, down underground, along, then up, along a
bit and down, then along again underground until it rises at the
boiler.

I have tried waiting for gravity to push the oil through (taken the
pipe off the pump) and also tried sucking it through - this seems to
get the oil through the pip, but it drops back again.

The boiler and burner will probably be inexcess of 20 years old.

Just a thought on this problem, I have no idea of the legalities of
doing it....

Might it not be possible to fit a second small tank at a higher level
and then pump the oil into that first using an automatic level switch
to control a pump?

--

Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.org

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Might it not be possible to fit a second small tank at a higher level
and then pump the oil into that first using an automatic level switch to
control a pump?


But why on earth would you do that? That's crazy...


--
Grunff

Grunff presented the following explanation :
Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Might it not be possible to fit a second small tank at a higher level and
then pump the oil into that first using an automatic level switch to
control a pump?


But why on earth would you do that? That's crazy...

When looking for a solution, all possible options should be considered.

--

Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.org

Is the oil tanked vented OK.

Remember the principle of the open ended 'U' tube.

Chris.

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

When looking for a solution, all possible options should be considered.


Not stupid ones, no.


--
Grunff

Grunff explained on 30/09/2005 :
When looking for a solution, all possible options should be considered.


Not stupid ones, no.

Stupid ones, yes.

All possible options, even the stupid ones. Then by a process of
elimination and costing, you work out which are the useful ideas.

--

Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.org

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Stupid ones, yes.

All possible options, even the stupid ones. Then by a process of
elimination and costing, you work out which are the useful ideas.


You are an idiot.

plonk


--
Grunff

Grunff submitted this idea :
Stupid ones, yes.

All possible options, even the stupid ones. Then by a process of
elimination and costing, you work out which are the useful ideas.


You are an idiot.

You are blinkered in your thought processes.

--

Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.org

wrote in message
oups.com...
The Oil tank is about 1/3 full - the tank is now probably lower than
the pump - the oil is definitely not coming through of it's own accord
so the level could be below the pump. The pipe is about 35 metres of
10mm copper.

The friction losses "should" be overcomable by the pump suction but your
pipe is a bit on the small side for that length. Its a case of being
possibly ok despite rule of thumb.

The pipe runs from the tank, down underground, along, then up, along a
bit and down, then along again underground until it rises at the
boiler.

I have tried waiting for gravity to push the oil through (taken the
pipe off the pump) and also tried sucking it through - this seems to
get the oil through the pip, but it drops back again.

If you can suck it through your pump "will" be able to suck it through as it
can suck a lot harder than you can.


The boiler and burner will probably be inexcess of 20 years old.

No matter. There are various options for which pump will be fitted though.
Your pump should have ports available for connection of two flexible pipes,
a suction from the tank and a return to it or to allow the use of a Tiger
Loop dearator. Does yours have one or two pipes connected to it (not
counting the high pressure pipe to the burner nozzle)?
Can you give the model number of the burner? Does it have a single
multifunction (grey) control box sitting on top of the burner casing which
has a round red illuminating reset button about 20mm diameter at the front
or another version?

I'm in Norfolk

Too far to drop in and see you theng

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Might it not be possible to fit a second small tank at a higher level and
then pump the oil into that first using an automatic level switch to
control a pump?


But why on earth would you do that? That's crazy...



Crazy is a bit of a blanket reaction. The best solution is the simplest. In
this case there should be no need but I have come across exactly this
solution for "very" (20 metre) high lift applications in a warehouse.

"John" wrote in message
...


.

My boiler is a trianco and the burner is Riello/RBL.


I am surprised at your situation.

I have always found the technical people at Trianco quite helpful.

You could also ask Reillo see:

http://www.rielloburners.co.uk/


(I have a Trianco boiler with a Danfoss pump which uses a two pipe system.)

Replacing the whole boiler for a more modern one might be worth considering,
bearing in mind that condensing boilers may soon be compulsory (except in some
circumstances.)

--

Michael Chare

"Michael Chare" wrote in message
...
"John" wrote in message
...


.

My boiler is a trianco and the burner is Riello/RBL.


I am surprised at your situation.

I have always found the technical people at Trianco quite helpful.

You could also ask Reillo see:

http://www.rielloburners.co.uk/


(I have a Trianco boiler with a Danfoss pump which uses a two pipe
system.)

Replacing the whole boiler for a more modern one might be worth
considering,
bearing in mind that condensing boilers may soon be compulsory (except in
some
circumstances.)


1. Please snip at appropriate points for correct attributes to the OP.

2. You are correct that Trianco and other manufacturers are helpful, however
his is a simple problem of practical advice required to establish flow
through an oil pipe.

3. The replacement with condensing versions is not mandatory for oil - yet,
and the guy has already said he is boracic at the moment (presumably spent
his budget on the landscaping he mentioned). A Riello/Trianco boiler is
likely to be extremely efficient anyway (even an old one) as long as it is
set up correctly.

"John" wrote in message
...

"Michael Chare" wrote in message
...
"John" wrote in message
...


2. You are correct that Trianco and other manufacturers are helpful, however
his is a simple problem of practical advice required to establish flow
through an oil pipe.

There was an issue about the relative heights of tank and boiler. The boiler
manufacturer would know the capabilites of the pump.

Danfoss would also know if they make a suitable replacement pump.


3. The replacement with condensing versions is not mandatory for oil - yet,

Not so long now though. My concern is that some of the non condensing boilers
will no longer be made.

and the guy has already said he is boracic at the moment (presumably spent
his budget on the landscaping he mentioned). A Riello/Trianco boiler is
likely to be extremely efficient anyway (even an old one) as long as it is
set up correctly.

I hope that you are right about the efficiency as my boiler is a similar age. I
am a little dubious about the SEDBUK efficiency figures as heat lost from boiler
casing and chimney pipe can still heat the house.

--

Michael Chare


..

Thanks to all for your replies. We have gone with the recon burner
unit as it seemed the most cost effective solution. This has worked a
treat and also given us a quieter boiler. I am now convinced that our
old pump HAS to be gravity fed - so it simply wouldn't suck the oil up.
I think if the tank would have been full, it may have worked - until
it was half full again!

cheer

Jeremy

"Michael Chare" wrote in message
...
"John" wrote in message
...

"Michael Chare" wrote in message
...
"John" wrote in message
...


2. You are correct that Trianco and other manufacturers are helpful,
however
his is a simple problem of practical advice required to establish flow
through an oil pipe.

There was an issue about the relative heights of tank and boiler. The
boiler
manufacturer would know the capabilites of the pump.

Danfoss would also know if they make a suitable replacement pump.

Riello don't use Danfoss pumps, they have their own which bear the letters
R.B.L. (Riello Burners Limited)


3. The replacement with condensing versions is not mandatory for oil -
yet,

Not so long now though. My concern is that some of the non condensing
boilers
will no longer be made.

That shouldn't cause a problem. Condensate pumps can be used if a suitable
gravity drain cannot be provided which has long been the way of things in
the AC industry. Most other factors can be overcome. When the time comes to
replace the boiler it can be done but I reckon there will be some current
steel cased non condensing oil boilers still going strong in ten to twenty
years time.

and the guy has already said he is boracic at the moment (presumably
spent
his budget on the landscaping he mentioned). A Riello/Trianco boiler is
likely to be extremely efficient anyway (even an old one) as long as it
is
set up correctly.

I hope that you are right about the efficiency as my boiler is a similar
age. I
am a little dubious about the SEDBUK efficiency figures as heat lost from
boiler
casing and chimney pipe can still heat the house


Heat lost "into" the house is not really lost is it? My boiler provides heat
to the downstairs cloakroom, aires and keeps shoes and coats warm (and the
cat requires a crowbar to get it off the top).

wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks to all for your replies. We have gone with the recon burner
unit as it seemed the most cost effective solution. This has worked a
treat and also given us a quieter boiler. I am now convinced that our
old pump HAS to be gravity fed - so it simply wouldn't suck the oil up.
I think if the tank would have been full, it may have worked - until
it was half full again!


Glad you are happy but I think if you had "primed" the pump it would have
worked fine. I suggest you don't throw the old unit away. (You could of
course put it on ebay to offset your outlay)

On Sat, 1 Oct 2005 15:57:28 +0000 (UTC), John wrote:

Heat lost "into" the house is not really lost is it?

Not in my book but do the boiler efficiencies take that into account?
They must simply take energy in and energy out via the pipe work. It
would be very difficult to account for losses via the casing and flue
as they would be totally dependant on where the boiler is located.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.com...
On Sat, 1 Oct 2005 15:57:28 +0000 (UTC), John wrote:

Heat lost "into" the house is not really lost is it?

Not in my book but do the boiler efficiencies take that into account?

They must simply take energy in and energy out via the pipe work. It
would be very difficult to account for losses via the casing and flue
as they would be totally dependant on where the boiler is located.

and consequently they end up publishing misleading information.
(Well that's my theory!)

--

Michael Chare

I pulled oil through by suction and primed the pump - but with this
pump if the oil level is lower than the pump then it simply won't work.

wrote in message
oups.com...
I pulled oil through by suction and primed the pump - but with this
pump if the oil level is lower than the pump then it simply won't work.


You still haven't told us what model of burner/pump and final pipe
connection you had but I suspect that the old pump had an internal bypass
port open for single pipe use and this would need some help in priming. You
might have saved £200 (or not as things developed)

On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 19:42:53 +0000 (UTC), "John"
wrote:


"Grunff" wrote in message
.. .
Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Might it not be possible to fit a second small tank at a higher level and
then pump the oil into that first using an automatic level switch to
control a pump?


But why on earth would you do that? That's crazy...

Crazy is a bit of a blanket reaction. The best solution is the simplest. In
this case there should be no need but I have come across exactly this
solution for "very" (20 metre) high lift applications in a warehouse.

It's what early oil fired canal boats did (and some modern ones using
old-style engines). Your engine is gravity fed (you have injection
pumps but no lift pump), and you have a "day tank" high up in the engine
room that holds enough fuel for the day. At the start of the day you
work a manual pump to move enough fuel up from the main tanks into the
day tank.

Very simple with not much to go wrong, and keeps the fuel weight low in
the boat.
--
On-line canal route planner: http://www.canalplan.org.uk

(Waterways World site of the month, April 2001)