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Are push fit plumbing fittings any good?
As an occasional and always very hesitant diy plumber, I've always used
traditional soldered or compression fittings in the past. I'm just about to fit an outside tap and my local B&Q has a very patchy stock of fittings. As a result I've bought a brass tap plus a selection of these new fangled push fit fittings (some copper, some plastic). I'm a bit wary of the push fit stuff - is there anything I should watch out for? What if it leaks on test, how do I tighten it up or get it apart again? TIA Steve |
On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 17:38:41 GMT, Steve
wrote: As an occasional and always very hesitant diy plumber, I've always used traditional soldered or compression fittings in the past. I'm just about to fit an outside tap and my local B&Q has a very patchy stock of fittings. As a result I've bought a brass tap plus a selection of these new fangled push fit fittings (some copper, some plastic). I'm a bit wary of the push fit stuff - is there anything I should watch out for? What if it leaks on test, how do I tighten it up or get it apart again? TIA Steve The main thing is to follow the manufacturer's instructions. This usually includes but is not limited to: - Cut the pipe clean and square using a tubing cutter and not a hacksaw - Make sure that the end is thoroughly deburred to avoid slicing any seals in the fitting. - Mark the pipe using the distance given by the manufacturer or mark on the fitting to ensure that the pipe is pushed fully home. Fittings are generally demountable, although some do require a special tool to do so. On others you push down on a ring at the mouth of the fitting. -- ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
Steve wrote: As an occasional and always very hesitant diy plumber, I've always used traditional soldered or compression fittings in the past. I'm just about to fit an outside tap and my local B&Q has a very patchy stock of fittings. As a result I've bought a brass tap plus a selection of these new fangled push fit fittings (some copper, some plastic). I'm a bit wary of the push fit stuff - is there anything I should watch out for? What if it leaks on test, how do I tighten it up or get it apart again? Make sure you use the correct pipe inserts for the correct fittings and dont mix and match. follow all the instructions. I find it very easy to use and very reliable. Different manafacturers have different methods of releasing. I find speedfit the best nice and easy to release. Hep20 is a bit of a nightmare to release, or this may be just my lack of experience with the product. HTH Richard TIA Steve |
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Andy Hall wrote: On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 17:38:41 GMT, Steve wrote: As an occasional and always very hesitant diy plumber, I've always used traditional soldered or compression fittings in the past. I'm just about to fit an outside tap and my local B&Q has a very patchy stock of fittings. As a result I've bought a brass tap plus a selection of these new fangled push fit fittings (some copper, some plastic). I'm a bit wary of the push fit stuff - is there anything I should watch out for? What if it leaks on test, how do I tighten it up or get it apart again? TIA Steve The main thing is to follow the manufacturer's instructions. This usually includes but is not limited to: - Cut the pipe clean and square using a tubing cutter and not a hacksaw I don't buy this. When I started using plastic pipes I used a hacksaw and trimmed of the pipe edge. As long as the cut is square all is fine as the pipe indert isolates the pipe from the O ring as it is being pushed on the pipe. For a few joints, using a hacksaw and some care, and all is fine. I use a =A340 gun type pipe cutter as I now use lots of plastic pipe. Fittings are generally demountable, although some do require a special tool to do so. On others you push down on a ring at the mouth of the fitting. The Hepworth slimline range are not demountable, as I found out to my dismay. They are much slimmer than the large bulky Hep2O fittings. Osma Gold is slim and demountable, requiring a special tool. I try to use Osma or Hep2O. I avoid Speedfit as I don't like plastic pipe inserts. I like to use brass Conex compression fitting and plastic where pipes are difficult to fit and out of sight. Plastic has a DIY image and may turn people off buying a house. I have used brass push fit fittings and copper pipe to great effect in positions where pipes are seen. Use grease on the pipe before pushing on the fitting, otherwisw the O ring may get dislodged. =20 --=20 =20 .andy =20 To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
Andy Hall wrote: On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 17:38:41 GMT, Steve wrote: As an occasional and always very hesitant diy plumber, I've always used traditional soldered or compression fittings in the past. I'm just about to fit an outside tap and my local B&Q has a very patchy stock of fittings. As a result I've bought a brass tap plus a selection of these new fangled push fit fittings (some copper, some plastic). I'm a bit wary of the push fit stuff - is there anything I should watch out for? What if it leaks on test, how do I tighten it up or get it apart again? TIA Steve The main thing is to follow the manufacturer's instructions. This usually includes but is not limited to: - Cut the pipe clean and square using a tubing cutter and not a hacksaw I don't buy this. When I started using plastic pipes I used a hacksaw and trimmed of the pipe edge. As long as the cut is square all is fine as the pipe indert isolates the pipe from the O ring as it is being pushed on the pipe. For a few joints, using a hacksaw and some care, and all is fine. I use a =A340 gun type pipe cutter as I now use lots of plastic pipe. Fittings are generally demountable, although some do require a special tool to do so. On others you push down on a ring at the mouth of the fitting. The Hepworth slimline range are not demountable, as I found out to my dismay. They are much slimmer than the large bulky Hep2O fittings. Osma Gold is slim and demountable, requiring a special tool. I try to use Osma or Hep2O. I avoid Speedfit as I don't like plastic pipe inserts. I like to use brass Conex compression fitting and plastic where pipes are difficult to fit and out of sight. Plastic has a DIY image and may turn people off buying a house. I have used brass push fit fittings and copper pipe to great effect in positions where pipes are seen. Use grease on the pipe before pushing on the fitting, otherwisw the O ring may get dislodged. =20 --=20 =20 .andy =20 To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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Andy Hall wrote: On 26 Aug 2005 16:19:49 -0700, wrote: Andy Hall wrote: The main thing is to follow the manufacturer's instructions. This usually includes but is not limited to: - Cut the pipe clean and square using a tubing cutter and not a hacksaw I don't buy this. When I started using plastic pipes I used a hacksaw and trimmed of the pipe edge. As long as the cut is square all is fine as the pipe indert isolates the pipe from the O ring as it is being pushed on the pipe. For a few joints, using a hacksaw and some care, and all is fine. You are IMM and I claim my =A35. More ukdiy paranoia. I was about to write "grow up", then I figured it isn't worth it. He said exactly the same and ended up with a flood. If I recall rightly he never had a flood, he had a faulty Speedfit fitting and informed the group to beware. I take notice of this sort of advice as I don't want problems when I fit pipes. I want to avoid problem products and areas. I had given up on Speedfit before he posted about it. I find the new locking Speedfit fittings are expensive and bulky. I only use Speedfit when they are the only fittings available. Wickes, B and Q and Homebase stock them as standard and at times I have no choice. I prefer Osma Gold, which is about the same price as Hep2O and much neater to look at. Most, if not all of the plastic plumbing manufacturers explicitly tell you not to use a hacksaw. To the OP. That is bunkum. I have made lots of joints using a hacksaw to cut plastic pipe. Hepworth on this actual group told everyone that a plastic pipe cutter is not needed, and other tools can be used if care is taken. A high quality pipe cutter is essential when doing a whole system as they are very quick and easy. When fitting a sink unit using a few joints they are not essential. As I have stated, make sure the end of the pipe is square and trimmed off with a Stanley knife or fine file. Use a mitre block to get a square cut, if you have one. The pipe insert protects the O ring from the pipe behind it as the fitting is pushed on. Any problems will be the O ring snagging any burr on the pipe edge as the O ring slides over. Keep the pipe and fitting well greased and twist slightly as you push. If you are only fitting a sink unit then use high quality compression joints and copper pipes, not plastic. Compression joints are easy to undo. Brass pushfit fittings are difficult to undo even using the dismounting tool. The pushfit flexible connectors can be used on copper pipe without inserts. Make sure the copper pipe is cut with a sharp pipe cutter and no burred edges and grease the pipe well. Do not overtighten the pipe cutter as you turn it as this may oval the pipe. An oval pipe end may not make a good seal with a pushfit fitting. If you do oval the pipe, push it into a compression fitting to round it back up again. I now pipe up sink mixer taps with rigid copper and compression joints. The copper pipe keeps the mixer tap rigid. When flexible connectors are used the mixer tap flexes on a thin stainless steel sink unit. This may be a turn off to a potential house buyer, giving a flimsy DIY feel. I hope this helps I use a =A340 gun type pipe cutter as I now use lots of plastic pipe. These are good, I know, but the casual user can use a =A35 pipe cutter and get a good and correct result without bodging with a hacksaw The cheap cutters are not worth it. You may as well use a sharp axe. =20 =20 --=20 =20 .andy =20 To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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Andy Hall wrote:
- Cut the pipe clean and square using a tubing cutter and not a hacksaw Nothing wrong with using a hacksaw :-) smiley alert -- |
On 27 Aug 2005 03:23:41 -0700, wrote:
Andy Hall wrote: - Cut the pipe clean and square using a tubing cutter and not a hacksaw I don't buy this. When I started using plastic pipes I used a hacksaw and trimmed of the pipe edge. As long as the cut is square all is fine as the pipe indert isolates the pipe from the O ring as it is being pushed on the pipe. For a few joints, using a hacksaw and some care, and all is fine. He said exactly the same and ended up with a flood. If I recall rightly he never had a flood, he had a faulty Speedfit fitting and informed the group to beware. That's what he *said*. However, many people here have used Speedfit and other brands of push fit fitting both on a DIY and professional basis with no problems at all, therefore one is much more likely to believe that it was operator error. Do you seriously believe that a manufacturer is going to take any notice of somebody running into a problem with a product when they choose to ignore the instructions.? I take notice of this sort of advice as I don't want problems when I fit pipes. I want to avoid problem products and areas. Exactly. If you use a pipe cutter, the problems can be avoided. Most, if not all of the plastic plumbing manufacturers explicitly tell you not to use a hacksaw. To the OP. That is bunkum. The manufacturers take a different view. Please refer to: http://www.johnguest.com/makeconnect.asp http://www.hep2o.co.uk/v2Opipecutting1.cfm http://tinyurl.com/959q9 (refers to Osma Gold) http://www.equator.co.uk/newwebsite/...on_making.html I have made lots of joints using a hacksaw to cut plastic pipe. Hepworth on this actual group told everyone that a plastic pipe cutter is not needed, and other tools can be used if care is taken. What they *actually* said was: "We do recommend the use of a Hep2O pipe cutter, however any pipe cutter designed to cut plastics pipes should be suitable. One of the major advantages of a purpose designed cutter is speed, however the requirements for the cutter are that it should cut the tube square without scoring or scratching the pipe or leaving burrs or swarf which could get under the 'O' ring. It is for this reason that hacksaws should not be used. The inventive can find many ways of achieving a perfectly acceptable clean, square cut using a variety of tools. " This does not read to me as being an endorsement to use a hacksaw. A high quality pipe cutter is essential when doing a whole system as they are very quick and easy. When fitting a sink unit using a few joints they are not essential. As I have stated, make sure the end of the pipe is square and trimmed off with a Stanley knife or fine file. Use a mitre block to get a square cut, if you have one. The pipe insert protects the O ring from the pipe behind it as the fitting is pushed on. In the case of plastic pipe, it also supports the shape of the pipe in the fitting. Any problems will be the O ring snagging any burr on the pipe edge as the O ring slides over. Which can be avoided by using the proper tools. Keep the pipe and fitting well greased and twist slightly as you push. If you are only fitting a sink unit then use high quality compression joints and copper pipes, not plastic. Compression joints are easy to undo. Brass pushfit fittings are difficult to undo even using the dismounting tool. The pushfit flexible connectors can be used on copper pipe without inserts. Make sure the copper pipe is cut with a sharp pipe cutter and no burred edges and grease the pipe well. Do not overtighten the pipe cutter as you turn it as this may oval the pipe. An oval pipe end may not make a good seal with a pushfit fitting. If you do oval the pipe, push it into a compression fitting to round it back up again. I use a £40 gun type pipe cutter as I now use lots of plastic pipe. These are good, I know, but the casual user can use a £5 pipe cutter and get a good and correct result without bodging with a hacksaw The cheap cutters are not worth it. You may as well use a sharp axe. For a small number of joints, they are perfectly adequate and can be resharpened if needed or treated as disposable. -- ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 11:37:35 +0100, Matt
wrote: Andy Hall wrote: - Cut the pipe clean and square using a tubing cutter and not a hacksaw Nothing wrong with using a hacksaw :-) smiley alert It's not panto season yet, Matt ;-) -- ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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Grunff wrote: wrote: If I recall rightly he never had a flood, he had a faulty Speedfit fitting and informed the group to beware. I take notice of this sort of advice as I don't want problems when I fit pipes. You are IMM! Hillarious. Another one. It is catching. To the OP. That is bunkum. No, it's not. It is bunkum. To the OP, just take note of what I wrote and you will have no problems. Take your time doing the joints, don't rush. The cheap cutters are not worth it. You may as well use a sharp axe. JG's own cutter is only =A315, and it's by far the best cutter available. http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=3D93312&ts=3D38837 The best? That is your opinion. I have a very expensive gun type cutter which is far superior than those scissor type cutters =20 =20 --=20 Grunff |
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To the OP. That is bunkum. No, it's not. It is bunkum. To the OP, just.... Ignore him. All the manufacturers explicitly say do *not* use a hacksaw. Yes you *may* get successful joints using one with care, but on the occations that you don't you will have no one but yourself to blame. So why make life difficult for yourself, when even the cheapie Screwfix vinyl pipe cutter will do the job for under a fiver? -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Andy Hall wrote:
On 27 Aug 2005 03:23:41 -0700, wrote: Andy Hall wrote: - Cut the pipe clean and square using a tubing cutter and not a hacksaw I don't buy this. When I started using plastic pipes I used a hacksaw and trimmed of the pipe edge. As long as the cut is square all is fine as the pipe indert isolates the pipe from the O ring as it is being pushed on the pipe. For a few joints, using a hacksaw and some care, and all is fine. He said exactly the same and ended up with a flood. If I recall rightly he never had a flood, he had a faulty Speedfit fitting and informed the group to beware. That's what he *said*. Well I believe him. However, many people here have used Speedfit and other brands of push fit fitting both on a DIY and professional basis with no problems at all, A look at other plumbing forums will tell that is also bunkum. One thread here has a list of the forums. There are numerous reports over the years of failed plastic fittings of all makes. therefore one is much more likely to believe that it was operator error. Or maybe a faulty fitting. The plumbing forums report many of these. Do you seriously believe that a manufacturer is going to take any notice of somebody running into a problem with a product when they choose to ignore the instructions.? You appear to be confused. A defective fitting is clear, as it is defective. Someone cutting a plastic pipe not square and leaving burred edges is entirely poor craftsmanship. I can get a clean square burr free cut on a plastic pipe, as good as my pipe cutter, using other tools. It will take a lot more time and care, yet entirely possible. BTW, I Googled IMMs original post and he said that the O ring dislodged as the pipe was being pushed through as the fitting was defective. This has no connection with a burred edge. That happened to me once using a Hep2O fitting. You can feel after a time whether the pipe is fully home of something is wrong. I disassembled the fitting, slipped the nut on the pipe, then the grab ring and slipped the O ring over the pipe, then slipping on the body of the fitting, screwed up and then pushed hard. It held. Have you ever done much plastic pipework? It is clear you have not. I use plastic pipe a lot as I do all the plumbing work on my renovations. I found plumbers not very good, very expensive and stuck in the past, with most wanting to slap in tanks everywhere with exposed pipes. Over the past 7 years my skills have grown to as good as theirs. I take notice of this sort of advice as I don't want problems when I fit pipes. I want to avoid problem products and areas. Exactly. If you use a pipe cutter, the problems can be avoided. IMMs reported problem was not the cutting of the pipe, it was a defective fitting. You can't seem to understand this. If many reports emerge of defects with one maker then that is a make to avoid. Most, if not all of the plastic plumbing manufacturers explicitly tell you not to use a hacksaw. To the OP. That is bunkum. The manufacturers take a different view. Please refer to: http://www.johnguest.com/makeconnect.asp http://www.hep2o.co.uk/v2Opipecutting1.cfm It was Hepworth who said on this actual forum that a cutter is not essential. They are right, as anyone with care can produce a square clean cut on a plastic pipe without spending a lot of money on a special pipe cutter. Steve, the OP, only wants to fit an outside tap. If he took your ill advice, he would buy a =A315 cutter not to be used again. http://tinyurl.com/959q9 (refers to Osma Gold) http://www.equator.co.uk/newwebsite/...on_making.html I have made lots of joints using a hacksaw to cut plastic pipe. Hepworth on this actual group told everyone that a plastic pipe cutter is not needed, and other tools can be used if care is taken. What they *actually* said was: "We do recommend the use of a Hep2O pipe cutter, however any pipe cutter designed to cut plastics pipes should be suitable. One of the major advantages of a purpose designed cutter is speed, however the requirements for the cutter are that it should cut the tube square without scoring or scratching the pipe or leaving burrs or swarf which could get under the 'O' ring. It is for this reason that hacksaws should not be used. The inventive can find many ways of achieving a perfectly acceptable clean, square cut using a variety of tools. " This does not read to me as being an endorsement to use a hacksaw. It does to me. The last sentence says it all. I have got perfect pipe ends not using a plastic pipe cutter. Cut it square and use other tools to trim it off. Unfortunately I couldn't find any other way to cut the pipe without using a hacksaw. It would be nice if Hepworth could expand on that sentence and name the "variety of tools". Maybe they know another method of cutting the pipe without a hacksaw and plastic pipe cutter. I did manage to cut some plastic using a new copper pipe cutter once. As soon as the wheel dulled it was not possible. This getting all silly. Achieving a perfectly square cut on a plastic pipe is possible using various methods. A plastic pipe cutter is not essential. I have been caught without my plastic pipe cutter and each time have managed a perfect pipe end without it. If your craft skills are not good enough to achieve perfect pipe end, you can't expect DIY people to have all the skills, then for you a plastic pipe cutter is the way. Don't assume all others do not have the skills to get a perfect pipe end. A high quality pipe cutter is essential when doing a whole system as they are very quick and easy. When fitting a sink unit using a few joints they are not essential. As I have stated, make sure the end of the pipe is square and trimmed off with a Stanley knife or fine file. Use a mitre block to get a square cut, if you have one. The pipe insert protects the O ring from the pipe behind it as the fitting is pushed on. In the case of plastic pipe, it also supports the shape of the pipe in the fitting. That is correct. There is only two ways that an O ring can be snagged. The pipe is not square and the there are burred edges. Once square and free of burrs the pipe insert guides the O ring over the pipe edge without any problems, as long as the pipe is well greased. Any problems will be the O ring snagging any burr on the pipe edge as the O ring slides over. Which can be avoided by using the proper tools. Or as Hepworth stated "using a variety of tools". If you can't get a square clean burr free edge on a plastic pipe without using a cutter you are kak handed and should not be doing pipework. As I said, anyone with good craft skills can get a good pipe edge. You have this obsession about using a plastic pipe cutter, nothing personal, but probably because of poor craft skills. Keep the pipe and fitting well greased and twist slightly as you push. If you are only fitting a sink unit then use high quality compression joints and copper pipes, not plastic. Compression joints are easy to undo. Brass pushfit fittings are difficult to undo even using the dismounting tool. The pushfit flexible connectors can be used on copper pipe without inserts. Make sure the copper pipe is cut with a sharp pipe cutter and no burred edges and grease the pipe well. Do not overtighten the pipe cutter as you turn it as this may oval the pipe. An oval pipe end may not make a good seal with a pushfit fitting. If you do oval the pipe, push it into a compression fitting to round it back up again. I use a =A340 gun type pipe cutter as I now use lots of plastic pipe. These are good, I know, but the casual user can use a =A35 pipe cutter and get a good and correct result without bodging with a hacksaw The cheap cutters are not worth it. You may as well use a sharp axe. For a small number of joints, they are perfectly adequate and can be resharpened if needed or treated as disposable. I bought one and threw it away, as it was a waste of time. It left sharp nicks in the end of the pipe. I would rather use a hacksaw, Stanley knife and fine file, as I know I can get a better edge that way. Don't use cheap tools, it is not worth it. =20 =20 --=20 =20 .andy =20 To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
John Rumm wrote: wrote: To the OP. That is bunkum. No, it's not. It is bunkum. To the OP, just.... Ignore him. All the manufacturers explicitly say do *not* use a hacksaw. See my reply to Andy Hall. The biggest manufacturer, Hepworth appear confused on the point. Yes you *may* get successful joints using one with care, but on the occations that you don't you will have no one but yourself to blame. Well who else are you going to blame if you screw up a pipe end? Take care and a perfect pipe end can be achieved as Hepworth stated "using a variety of tools". So why make life difficult for yourself, when even the cheapie Screwfix vinyl pipe cutter will do the job for under a fiver? A waste of time and a liability from bitter experience. Either use a top quality plastic pipe cutter, or a hacksaw, stanley knife and fine file to trim off. Don't use poor quality tools, it is not worth it. |
Matt wrote: wrote: I don't buy this. When I started using plastic pipes I used a hacksaw and trimmed of the pipe edge. How was Switzerland? You are clearly confused. I'm off down the pub. -- |
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Steve wrote:
As an occasional and always very hesitant diy plumber, I've always used traditional soldered or compression fittings in the past. I'm just about to fit an outside tap and my local B&Q has a very patchy stock of fittings. As a result I've bought a brass tap plus a selection of these new fangled push fit fittings (some copper, some plastic). I'm a bit wary of the push fit stuff - is there anything I should watch out for? What if it leaks on test, how do I tighten it up or get it apart again? TIA Steve Thanks for all the advice. I'm sorry if I inadvertently started a fight. Seems like there's more to this push fit stuff than I thought, I think I'll take it back and get some traditional compression and soldered fittings - I know what I'm doing with them. |
On 27 Aug 2005 05:53:45 -0700, wrote:
John Rumm wrote: wrote: To the OP. That is bunkum. No, it's not. It is bunkum. To the OP, just.... Ignore him. All the manufacturers explicitly say do *not* use a hacksaw. See my reply to Andy Hall. The biggest manufacturer, Hepworth appear confused on the point. Not really. The instructions are completely clear. Yes you *may* get successful joints using one with care, but on the occations that you don't you will have no one but yourself to blame. Well who else are you going to blame if you screw up a pipe end? Take care and a perfect pipe end can be achieved as Hepworth stated "using a variety of tools". They said that the inventive may do that. They didn't say that they thought it was a good idea. So why make life difficult for yourself, when even the cheapie Screwfix vinyl pipe cutter will do the job for under a fiver? A waste of time and a liability from bitter experience. Either use a top quality plastic pipe cutter, or a hacksaw, stanley knife and fine file to trim off. Don't use poor quality tools, it is not worth it. I certainly agree with respect to using good quality tools. However, I've had perfectly good results with a £5 pipe cutter as well as a £15 one. I may be sufficiently inventive to have success with other things like a mitre saw - who knows. I also follow manufacturers instructions unless there is a very good reason not to do so. Here there really isn't. -- ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
Andy Hall wrote: On 27 Aug 2005 05:53:45 -0700, wrote: John Rumm wrote: wrote: To the OP. That is bunkum. No, it's not. It is bunkum. To the OP, just.... Ignore him. All the manufacturers explicitly say do *not* use a hacksa= w=2E See my reply to Andy Hall. The biggest manufacturer, Hepworth appear confused on the point. Not really. The instructions are completely clear. What Hepworth said was as clear as mud. They say don't use a hacksaw, then say you can do the cut with a variety of tools. How are you supposed to cut the pipe without a plastic pipe cutter? A James Bond lazer? To me is clear that they meant don't cut with a hacksaw without trimming or squaring, pushing in the pipe insert and then pushing the fitting on. THAT is looking for trouble, and that is what they meant. Yes you *may* get successful joints using one with care, but on the occations that you don't you will have no one but yourself to blame. Well who else are you going to blame if you screw up a pipe end? Take care and a perfect pipe end can be achieved as Hepworth stated "using a variety of tools". They said that the inventive may do that. They didn't say that they thought it was a good idea. If they didn't think it was a good idea they wouldn't have said it. It is clear they said you can make the cut "without" a plastic pipe cutter. So why make life difficult for yourself, when even the cheapie Screwfix vinyl pipe cutter will do the job for under a fiver? A waste of time and a liability from bitter experience. Either use a top quality plastic pipe cutter, or a hacksaw, stanley knife and fine file to trim off. Don't use poor quality tools, it is not worth it. I certainly agree with respect to using good quality tools. However, I've had perfectly good results with a =A35 pipe cutter as well as a =A315 one. I may be sufficiently inventive to have success with other things like a mitre saw - who knows. I also follow manufacturers instructions unless there is a very good reason not to do so. Here there really isn't. There is, if you don't have a good cutter available. If you have a good cutter use it. If not you can do the plastic pipe cut by using a hacksaw, stanley knife and fine file. I have done many that are as good as a cut by my full professional cutter, and never had any problems. And I wasn't even that inventive. I used everyday tools in my tool box. Do you have to be so moronic? =20 =20 --=20 =20 .andy =20 To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
Andy Hall wrote: On 27 Aug 2005 04:28:35 -0700, wrote: Grunff wrote: wrote: If I recall rightly he never had a flood, he had a faulty Speedfit fitting and informed the group to beware. I take notice of this sort of advice as I don't want problems when I fit pipes. You are IMM! Hillarious. Another one. It is catching. To the OP. That is bunkum. No, it's not. It is bunkum. To the OP, just take note of what I wrote and you will have no problems. Take your time doing the joints, don't rush. Let's guess. The next line is "I'm a professional" (without being able to back it up) etc. etc. I am no professional that is why I look in here and other forums. I am a jack of all trades, master of none. A plumber can thread 6" pipes, I have never threaded a pipe. After 7 years, I can fit a heating and water system in plastic and copper as good as them in a domestic house only. My craft skills are as good as theirs. Most of what I do is rule of thumb and revert to books, manufacturers and groups like this one to expand on. My main points a as less space taken up as possible by cylidners and boilers (of elimination of one or both), the highest DHW flow rate as possible for high performance showers and no pipes seen. To achieve something as simple as that can be very complicated. -- .andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
On 27 Aug 2005 05:45:27 -0700, wrote:
Andy Hall wrote: On 27 Aug 2005 03:23:41 -0700, wrote: Andy Hall wrote: - Cut the pipe clean and square using a tubing cutter and not a hacksaw I don't buy this. When I started using plastic pipes I used a hacksaw and trimmed of the pipe edge. As long as the cut is square all is fine as the pipe indert isolates the pipe from the O ring as it is being pushed on the pipe. For a few joints, using a hacksaw and some care, and all is fine. He said exactly the same and ended up with a flood. If I recall rightly he never had a flood, he had a faulty Speedfit fitting and informed the group to beware. That's what he *said*. Well I believe him. I can imagine that. However, many people here have used Speedfit and other brands of push fit fitting both on a DIY and professional basis with no problems at all, A look at other plumbing forums will tell that is also bunkum. One thread here has a list of the forums. There are numerous reports over the years of failed plastic fittings of all makes. His assertion was that Speedfit products were always crap because he had a bad experience after fitting one without following the instructions. This simply isn't true. therefore one is much more likely to believe that it was operator error. Or maybe a faulty fitting. The plumbing forums report many of these. There can be manufacturing defects in any product. This is not the same thing as claining that a product is bad when you don't do what the manufacturer says. Do you seriously believe that a manufacturer is going to take any notice of somebody running into a problem with a product when they choose to ignore the instructions.? You appear to be confused. I'm not in the least bit confused. The manufacturer's instructions (from several manufacturers) are completely clear as well. A defective fitting is clear, as it is defective. Someone cutting a plastic pipe not square and leaving burred edges is entirely poor craftsmanship. It is also doing what the manufacturers explicitly say not to do. I can get a clean square burr free cut on a plastic pipe, as good as my pipe cutter, using other tools. It will take a lot more time and care, yet entirely possible. Wonderful but irrelevent. BTW, I Googled IMMs original post and he said that the O ring dislodged as the pipe was being pushed through as the fitting was defective. So he believes. I don't believe him, given his admission that he cut the pipe with a hacksaw. This has no connection with a burred edge. That happened to me once using a Hep2O fitting. You can feel after a time whether the pipe is fully home of something is wrong. I disassembled the fitting, slipped the nut on the pipe, then the grab ring and slipped the O ring over the pipe, then slipping on the body of the fitting, screwed up and then pushed hard. It held. ..... and the point is? Have you ever done much plastic pipework? It is clear you have not. How would you know? In fact I have, quite a bit, as have many other people, quite successfully in this NG. I use plastic pipe a lot as I do all the plumbing work on my renovations. I found plumbers not very good, very expensive and stuck in the past, with most wanting to slap in tanks everywhere with exposed pipes. Over the past 7 years my skills have grown to as good as theirs. Lovely, but not really relevent. I take notice of this sort of advice as I don't want problems when I fit pipes. I want to avoid problem products and areas. Exactly. If you use a pipe cutter, the problems can be avoided. IMMs reported problem was not the cutting of the pipe, it was a defective fitting. You can't seem to understand this. I understand his *claim* perfectly. Given the circumstances of not folowing the instructions, I simply don't believe him. If many reports emerge of defects with one maker then that is a make to avoid. In this NG, they don't. Most, if not all of the plastic plumbing manufacturers explicitly tell you not to use a hacksaw. To the OP. That is bunkum. The manufacturers take a different view. Please refer to: http://www.johnguest.com/makeconnect.asp http://www.hep2o.co.uk/v2Opipecutting1.cfm It was Hepworth who said on this actual forum that a cutter is not essential. That is not what they said at all. They said: "We do recommend the use of a Hep2O pipe cutter, however any pipe cutter designed to cut plastics pipes should be suitable. One of the major advantages of a purpose designed cutter is speed, however the requirements for the cutter are that it should cut the tube square without scoring or scratching the pipe or leaving burrs or swarf which could get under the 'O' ring. It is for this reason that hacksaws should not be used. The inventive can find many ways of achieving a perfectly acceptable clean, square cut using a variety of tools. " The only recommendation is to use a cutter, and that is the point. They are right, as anyone with care can produce a square clean cut on a plastic pipe without spending a lot of money on a special pipe cutter. One doesn't need to spend a lot of money on a special pipe cutter. For a few joints, a £5 is perfectly good and will cut a clean square end according to the manufacturers instructions. Steve, the OP, only wants to fit an outside tap. If he took your ill advice, he would buy a £15 cutter not to be used again. How can advice in accordance with what the manufacturer says be ill advice? He does not need to buy a £15 cutter - a £5 is perfectly good for the job. http://tinyurl.com/959q9 (refers to Osma Gold) http://www.equator.co.uk/newwebsite/...on_making.html I have made lots of joints using a hacksaw to cut plastic pipe. Hepworth on this actual group told everyone that a plastic pipe cutter is not needed, and other tools can be used if care is taken. What they *actually* said was: "We do recommend the use of a Hep2O pipe cutter, however any pipe cutter designed to cut plastics pipes should be suitable. One of the major advantages of a purpose designed cutter is speed, however the requirements for the cutter are that it should cut the tube square without scoring or scratching the pipe or leaving burrs or swarf which could get under the 'O' ring. It is for this reason that hacksaws should not be used. The inventive can find many ways of achieving a perfectly acceptable clean, square cut using a variety of tools. " This does not read to me as being an endorsement to use a hacksaw. It does to me. It doesn't to anybody else. The last sentence says it all. In effect it says that if you want to bodge, then you can. The other paragraph explains how the job should be done properly. I have got perfect pipe ends not using a plastic pipe cutter. Cut it square and use other tools to trim it off. Unfortunately I couldn't find any other way to cut the pipe without using a hacksaw. It would be nice if Hepworth could expand on that sentence and name the "variety of tools". It's a throwaway remark and not a recommendation that the user should do anything other than use a cutter. The rest of the information, *and* the instructions, and (it appears) every other manufacturer's instructions say *DO* use a pipe cutter, *DON'T* use a hacksaw. It really couldn't be any clearer. Maybe they know another method of cutting the pipe without a hacksaw and plastic pipe cutter. They probably do. If they thought it had any merit, they and other vendors would say so in their literature. They don't. There is a clue there...... I did manage to cut some plastic using a new copper pipe cutter once. As soon as the wheel dulled it was not possible. Even worse because it mangles the end of the pipe. This getting all silly. Achieving a perfectly square cut on a plastic pipe is possible using various methods. It may or may not be. THe manufacturers all tell the installer to use a cutter, which costs about the same as a hacksaw anyway. A plastic pipe cutter is not essential. I have been caught without my plastic pipe cutter and each time have managed a perfect pipe end without it. If your craft skills are not good enough to achieve perfect pipe end, you can't expect DIY people to have all the skills, then for you a plastic pipe cutter is the way. Don't assume all others do not have the skills to get a perfect pipe end. That's a feeble attempt to draw attention away from the main point, which is that the manufacturers specify a way to do the job properly. It's also something of a put down to suggest that a pipe cutter should be used if you haven't got the skills. So you can cut a square, clean end on a piece of pipe.... big deal; so can I. In fact, I was doing some plastic plumbing this afternoon. I could have used a hacksaw, a mitre saw, a pair of shears, a band saw, a table saw and at least 10 others if I had thought about it. So what. The £5 cutter came to hand before the £15 one, so I used it. All ends were clean and square first time and all went into the fittings first time with no problems at all - just as they always do. A high quality pipe cutter is essential when doing a whole system as they are very quick and easy. When fitting a sink unit using a few joints they are not essential. As I have stated, make sure the end of the pipe is square and trimmed off with a Stanley knife or fine file. Use a mitre block to get a square cut, if you have one. The pipe insert protects the O ring from the pipe behind it as the fitting is pushed on. In the case of plastic pipe, it also supports the shape of the pipe in the fitting. That is correct. There is only two ways that an O ring can be snagged. The pipe is not square and the there are burred edges. Which is why the manufacturers recommend using a cutter. Once square and free of burrs the pipe insert guides the O ring over the pipe edge without any problems, as long as the pipe is well greased. Any problems will be the O ring snagging any burr on the pipe edge as the O ring slides over. Which can be avoided by using the proper tools. Or as Hepworth stated "using a variety of tools". If you can't get a square clean burr free edge on a plastic pipe without using a cutter you are kak handed and should not be doing pipework. This is rubbish. Of course I *can* get a clean and square edge using any one of at least 10 tools. Why would I bother when I can do it quickly and easily with a £5 cutter? As I said, anyone with good craft skills can get a good pipe edge. You have this obsession about using a plastic pipe cutter, nothing personal, but probably because of poor craft skills. Hardly. There is no obsession about using a pipe cutter at all. I have simply pointed out that the manufacturers specify this as the tool to use and explicitly say that a hacksaw should not be used. They go on to say that people may well do something else. That's an observation and nothing more. You're trying to justify not buying a simple pipe cutter at a cost of £5 - basically the cost of a few fittings - and this is nonsense. Keep the pipe and fitting well greased and twist slightly as you push. If you are only fitting a sink unit then use high quality compression joints and copper pipes, not plastic. Compression joints are easy to undo. Brass pushfit fittings are difficult to undo even using the dismounting tool. The pushfit flexible connectors can be used on copper pipe without inserts. Make sure the copper pipe is cut with a sharp pipe cutter and no burred edges and grease the pipe well. Do not overtighten the pipe cutter as you turn it as this may oval the pipe. An oval pipe end may not make a good seal with a pushfit fitting. If you do oval the pipe, push it into a compression fitting to round it back up again. I use a £40 gun type pipe cutter as I now use lots of plastic pipe. These are good, I know, but the casual user can use a £5 pipe cutter and get a good and correct result without bodging with a hacksaw The cheap cutters are not worth it. You may as well use a sharp axe. For a small number of joints, they are perfectly adequate and can be resharpened if needed or treated as disposable. I bought one and threw it away, as it was a waste of time. Probably because of poor craft skills I would imagine. It left sharp nicks in the end of the pipe. I would rather use a hacksaw, Stanley knife and fine file, as I know I can get a better edge that way. Don't use cheap tools, it is not worth it. I certainly agree about not using cheap tools - I almost always buy at or near to the top end. However, for pipe cutters for plastic plumbing pipe a £5 cutter does as good a job (for me at least) as a more expensive one. I do also have a more expensive ratchet type cutter which I bought when I needed to cut nylon pipe for compressed air use. This material is tougher than the water pipe and it was tough going with the £5 cutter, easy with the ratchet one. -- ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
On 27 Aug 2005 13:02:15 -0700, wrote:
Andy Hall wrote: On 27 Aug 2005 05:53:45 -0700, wrote: John Rumm wrote: wrote: To the OP. That is bunkum. No, it's not. It is bunkum. To the OP, just.... Ignore him. All the manufacturers explicitly say do *not* use a hacksaw. See my reply to Andy Hall. The biggest manufacturer, Hepworth appear confused on the point. Not really. The instructions are completely clear. What Hepworth said was as clear as mud. They say don't use a hacksaw, then say you can do the cut with a variety of tools. In their printed instructions and web site, and indeed, in the corresponding literature from other manufacturers, the procedure and tools to use and not to use are completely clear. You are trying to make more from the throwaway paragraph about people being able to find alternatives that will do an acceptable job than was intended. They have simply said it's possible, not that it's recommended. How are you supposed to cut the pipe without a plastic pipe cutter? A James Bond lazer? They did say that the inventive will find ways.... To me is clear that they meant don't cut with a hacksaw without trimming or squaring, pushing in the pipe insert and then pushing the fitting on. THAT is looking for trouble, and that is what they meant. Who knows what they meant. It's irrelevent. What they actually *say* is to use a pipe cutter and not to use a hacksaw. There is no comment on what one should do if one chooses to use a hacksaw. In other words - you are on your own if you do. Nothing was said or implied. Yes you *may* get successful joints using one with care, but on the occations that you don't you will have no one but yourself to blame. Well who else are you going to blame if you screw up a pipe end? Take care and a perfect pipe end can be achieved as Hepworth stated "using a variety of tools". They said that the inventive may do that. They didn't say that they thought it was a good idea. If they didn't think it was a good idea they wouldn't have said it. It was a throwaway observation that people do find ways to do things that differ from the method given in the instructions. Nothing more than that. Pretty obvious. It is clear they said you can make the cut "without" a plastic pipe cutter. Of course. However, none of them are recommended and hacksaw is specifically excluded. So why make life difficult for yourself, when even the cheapie Screwfix vinyl pipe cutter will do the job for under a fiver? A waste of time and a liability from bitter experience. Either use a top quality plastic pipe cutter, or a hacksaw, stanley knife and fine file to trim off. Don't use poor quality tools, it is not worth it. I certainly agree with respect to using good quality tools. However, I've had perfectly good results with a £5 pipe cutter as well as a £15 one. I may be sufficiently inventive to have success with other things like a mitre saw - who knows. I also follow manufacturers instructions unless there is a very good reason not to do so. Here there really isn't. There is, if you don't have a good cutter available. Why wouldn't you? A £5 cutter doesn't even come to more than about 20% of the price of the bits for the project. If you have a good cutter use it. If not you can do the plastic pipe cut by using a hacksaw, stanley knife and fine file. I have done many that are as good as a cut by my full professional cutter, and never had any problems. And I wasn't even that inventive. I used everyday tools in my tool box. Great, but this is not what the manufacturer says that one should do. The original question was from somebody who had not done plastic plumbing before with push fit fittings. Maybe he could have cut the pipe with a hacksaw, maybe not. Using the correct tool, which was hardly a big deal he would have got a good result. A £5 cutter for a small job like this would have been perfectly good. Do you have to be so moronic? Somehow I think that somebody who advocates using a tool specifically advised against by the product manufacturer when the correct tool is easily obtainable for a fraction of the project cost, is not speaking from a position of strength when he suggests this. -- ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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Andy Hall wrote: On 27 Aug 2005 05:45:27 -0700, wrote: Andy Hall wrote: On 27 Aug 2005 03:23:41 -0700, wrote: Andy Hall wrote: - Cut the pipe clean and square using a tubing cutter and not a hacksaw I don't buy this. When I started using plastic pipes I used a hacksaw and trimmed of the pipe edge. As long as the cut is square all is fine as the pipe indert isolates the pipe from the O ring as it is being pushed on the pipe. For a few joints, using a hacksaw and some care, and all is fine. He said exactly the same and ended up with a flood. If I recall rightly he never had a flood, he had a faulty Speedfit fitting and informed the group to beware. That's what he *said*. Well I believe him. I can imagine that. However, many people here have used Speedfit and other brands of push fit fitting both on a DIY and professional basis with no problems at all, A look at other Mike has a go at you once over your arrogant attitude and gave you the title Lord Hall for your pretentious attitude. Just take notice of people who know more and have more experience than yourself, and that includes me. I regard myself as a semi pro in plumbing as I do it to earn a living and come up with good quality results. You are clearly a DIY man and it abundantly shows. It is clear you are a moron with an IMM obsession not worth bothering with. I use Google so I can't plonk you. |
In message .com,
writes Andy Hall wrote: On 27 Aug 2005 05:53:45 -0700, wrote: John Rumm wrote: wrote: To the OP. That is bunkum. No, it's not. It is bunkum. To the OP, just.... Ignore him. All the manufacturers explicitly say do *not* use a hacksaw. See my reply to Andy Hall. The biggest manufacturer, Hepworth appear confused on the point. Not really. The instructions are completely clear. What Hepworth said was as clear as mud. They say don't use a hacksaw, then say you can do the cut with a variety of tools. How are you supposed to cut the pipe without a plastic pipe cutter? A James Bond lazer? To me is clear that they meant don't cut with a hacksaw without trimming or squaring, pushing in the pipe insert and then pushing the fitting on. THAT is looking for trouble, and that is what they meant. Yes you *may* get successful joints using one with care, but on the occations that you don't you will have no one but yourself to blame. Well who else are you going to blame if you screw up a pipe end? Take care and a perfect pipe end can be achieved as Hepworth stated "using a variety of tools". They said that the inventive may do that. They didn't say that they thought it was a good idea. If they didn't think it was a good idea they wouldn't have said it. It is clear they said you can make the cut "without" a plastic pipe cutter. So why make life difficult for yourself, when even the cheapie Screwfix vinyl pipe cutter will do the job for under a fiver? A waste of time and a liability from bitter experience. Either use a top quality plastic pipe cutter, or a hacksaw, stanley knife and fine file to trim off. Don't use poor quality tools, it is not worth it. I certainly agree with respect to using good quality tools. However, I've had perfectly good results with a £5 pipe cutter as well as a £15 one. I may be sufficiently inventive to have success with other things like a mitre saw - who knows. I also follow manufacturers instructions unless there is a very good reason not to do so. Here there really isn't. There is, if you don't have a good cutter available. If you have a good cutter use it. If not you can do the plastic pipe cut by using a hacksaw, stanley knife and fine file. I have done many that are as good as a cut by my full professional cutter, and never had any problems. And I wasn't even that inventive. I used everyday tools in my tool box. You're a member of the axis of DrEvil and a threat to society I think you should restrict your toolbox to containing blunt pencils -- geoff |
Steve wrote:
Thanks for all the advice. I'm sorry if I inadvertently started a fight. Seems like there's more to this push fit stuff than I thought, I think I'll take it back and get some traditional compression and soldered fittings - I know what I'm doing with them. Don't be silly. They are very easy to use, and very reliable. Many of us have used all the main makes of pushfit with no problems. -- Grunff |
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wrote:
There is, if you don't have a good cutter available. If you have a good cutter use it. If not you can do the plastic pipe cut by using a hacksaw, stanley knife and fine file. I have done many that are as good If you have the knife, you don't need the saw do you... Do you have to be so moronic? You are sounding ever more like your mentor. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
In article .com,
writes Andy Hall wrote: On 27 Aug 2005 05:53:45 -0700, wrote: John Rumm wrote: wrote: To the OP. That is bunkum. No, it's not. It is bunkum. To the OP, just.... Ignore him. All the manufacturers explicitly say do *not* use a hacksaw. See my reply to Andy Hall. The biggest manufacturer, Hepworth appear confused on the point. Not really. The instructions are completely clear. What Hepworth said was as clear as mud. They say don't use a hacksaw, then say you can do the cut with a variety of tools. How are you supposed to cut the pipe without a plastic pipe cutter? A James Bond lazer? To me is clear that they meant don't cut with a hacksaw without trimming or squaring, pushing in the pipe insert and then pushing the fitting on. THAT is looking for trouble, and that is what they meant. Yes you *may* get successful joints using one with care, but on the occations that you don't you will have no one but yourself to blame. Well who else are you going to blame if you screw up a pipe end? Take care and a perfect pipe end can be achieved as Hepworth stated "using a variety of tools". They said that the inventive may do that. They didn't say that they thought it was a good idea. If they didn't think it was a good idea they wouldn't have said it. It is clear they said you can make the cut "without" a plastic pipe cutter. So why make life difficult for yourself, when even the cheapie Screwfix vinyl pipe cutter will do the job for under a fiver? A waste of time and a liability from bitter experience. Either use a top quality plastic pipe cutter, or a hacksaw, stanley knife and fine file to trim off. Don't use poor quality tools, it is not worth it. I certainly agree with respect to using good quality tools. However, I've had perfectly good results with a £5 pipe cutter as well as a £15 one. I may be sufficiently inventive to have success with other things like a mitre saw - who knows. I also follow manufacturers instructions unless there is a very good reason not to do so. Here there really isn't. There is, if you don't have a good cutter available. If you have a good cutter use it. If not you can do the plastic pipe cut by using a hacksaw, stanley knife and fine file. I have done many that are as good as a cut by my full professional cutter, and never had any problems. And I wasn't even that inventive. I used everyday tools in my tool box. Do you have to be so moronic? I can now see why you agree so much with John Burns (Drivel), anonymous poster, listen to me I've sold more houses than you've had hot dinners.. pursuing pointless arguments -- David |
In article .com,
wrote: I don't buy this. When I started using plastic pipes I used a hacksaw and trimmed of the pipe edge. You are Drivel and I claim my 5 pounds. While it is *possible* to use a hacksaw and trim to give a decent end on the workbench, it's near impossible in an awkward location, so just as with everything get the correct tool for the job. -- *Go the extra mile. It makes your boss look like an incompetent slacker * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
In article , Steve
writes Steve wrote: As an occasional and always very hesitant diy plumber, I've always used traditional soldered or compression fittings in the past. I'm just about to fit an outside tap and my local B&Q has a very patchy stock of fittings. As a result I've bought a brass tap plus a selection of these new fangled push fit fittings (some copper, some plastic). I'm a bit wary of the push fit stuff - is there anything I should watch out for? What if it leaks on test, how do I tighten it up or get it apart again? TIA Steve Thanks for all the advice. I'm sorry if I inadvertently started a fight. Seems like there's more to this push fit stuff than I thought, I think I'll take it back and get some traditional compression and soldered fittings - I know what I'm doing with them. I would go with the plastic and get the £5 cutter, its always useful to have it because you're bound to do some more. I fitted my first complete system with plastic about 6 yrs ago using a cheap cutter, no problems at all, I still have it and use it regularly (with new blades). Plastic is the quickest and simplest plumbing system you can fit. -- David |
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Andy Hall wrote:
This getting all silly. Achieving a perfectly square cut on a plastic pipe is possible using various methods. It may or may not be. THe manufacturers all tell the installer to use a cutter, which costs about the same as a hacksaw anyway. You forgot dIMM buys his hacksaws in bulk so its much cheaper his way (neglecting the damage costs) -- |
John Rumm wrote: wrote: There is, if you don't have a good cutter available. If you have a good cutter use it. If not you can do the plastic pipe cut by using a hacksaw, stanley knife and fine file. I have done many that are as good If you have the knife, you don't need the saw do you... You do. It is very difficult to slice a plastic barrier pipe with a Stanley knife. Use the hacksaw and trim off. It must be square, the Stanley and file will help here. Do you have to be so moronic? You are sounding ever more like your mentor. I can see how he feels. |
Matt wrote: wrote: What Hepworth said was as clear as mud. They say don't use a hacksaw, then say you can do the cut with a variety of tools. How are you supposed to cut the pipe without a plastic pipe cutter? A James Bond lazer? To me is clear that they meant don't cut with a hacksaw without trimming or squaring, pushing in the pipe insert and then pushing the fitting on. THAT is looking for trouble, and that is what they meant. A laser is no good as the wavelength has to be optimised They breed them on this group that is for certain. |
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