UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions.

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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article .com,
wrote:


I don't buy this. When I started using plastic pipes I used a hacksaw
and trimmed of the pipe edge.


You are Drivel and I claim my 5 pounds.


Oh he is back....

While it is *possible* to use a hacksaw and trim to give a decent end on
the workbench, it's near impossible in an awkward location, so just as
with everything get the correct tool for the job.


How do you know? Have you ever done it? Take to flying kites. You and
wind go together. :-)

--
*Go the extra mile. It makes your boss look like an incompetent slacker *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


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David wrote:
In article , Steve
writes
Steve wrote:
As an occasional and always very hesitant diy plumber, I've always used
traditional soldered or compression fittings in the past. I'm just
about to fit an outside tap and my local B&Q has a very patchy stock of
fittings. As a result I've bought a brass tap plus a selection of the=

se
new fangled push fit fittings (some copper, some plastic).

I'm a bit wary of the push fit stuff - is there anything I should watch
out for? What if it leaks on test, how do I tighten it up or get it
apart again?

TIA

Steve



Thanks for all the advice. I'm sorry if I inadvertently started a
fight. Seems like there's more to this push fit stuff than I thought, I
think I'll take it back and get some traditional compression and
soldered fittings - I know what I'm doing with them.


I would go with the plastic and get the =A35 cutter, its always useful to
have it because you're bound to do some more. I fitted my first complete
system with plastic about 6 yrs ago using a cheap cutter, no problems at
all, I still have it and use it regularly (with new blades). Plastic is
the quickest and simplest plumbing system you can fit.
--
David


And if on show will drop the price of your house, and at best make it
difficult to sell. use copper where pipes are exposed.

  #43   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article . com,
wrote:
A laser is no good as the wavelength has to be optimised


They breed them on this group that is for certain.


If you're not Drivel you speak the same peculiar 'English'.

--
He who laughs last, thinks slowest.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #44   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article .com,
wrote:
I don't buy this. When I started using plastic pipes I used a hacksaw
and trimmed of the pipe edge.


More Drivel spelling?

You are Drivel and I claim my 5 pounds.


Oh he is back....


?

While it is *possible* to use a hacksaw and trim to give a decent end
on the workbench, it's near impossible in an awkward location, so just
as with everything get the correct tool for the job.


How do you know? Have you ever done it?


I'm very careful about any pipe jointing in difficult locations. Avoids
floods. Of course by the sound of it all your 'refurbishments' will
include surface mounted plastic pipes - otherwise you'd have the correct
tools?

Take to flying kites. You and wind go together. :-)


The more you post here, the more it's obvious you don't make a living by
what you claim to.

--
*Time is what keeps everything from happening at once.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #46   Report Post  
ARWadsworth
 
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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 27 Aug 2005 05:53:45 -0700, wrote:


John Rumm wrote:
wrote:

To the OP. That is bunkum.

No, it's not.


It is bunkum. To the OP, just....

Ignore him. All the manufacturers explicitly say do *not* use a hacksaw.


See my reply to Andy Hall. The biggest manufacturer, Hepworth appear
confused on the point.


Not really. The instructions are completely clear.



Yes you *may* get successful joints using one with care, but on the
occations that you don't you will have no one but yourself to blame.


Well who else are you going to blame if you screw up a pipe end? Take
care and a perfect pipe end can be achieved as Hepworth stated "using
a variety of tools".


They said that the inventive may do that. They didn't say that they
thought it was a good idea.


So why make life difficult for yourself, when even the cheapie Screwfix
vinyl pipe cutter will do the job for under a fiver?


A waste of time and a liability from bitter experience. Either use a
top quality plastic pipe cutter, or a hacksaw, stanley knife and fine
file to trim off.

Don't use poor quality tools, it is not worth it.


I certainly agree with respect to using good quality tools. However,
I've had perfectly good results with a £5 pipe cutter as well as a £15
one. I may be sufficiently inventive to have success with other
things like a mitre saw - who knows. I also follow manufacturers
instructions unless there is a very good reason not to do so. Here
there really isn't.


What would class as a very good reason?

I did an emergency repair at neighbours house to a damaged copper pipe late
one night without access to a full toolbox and kit. I did have some plastic
pipe (Hep) some inserts and a pipe slice. I did not have my plastic pipe
cutters and instead put an insert into the Hep and used the pipe slice to
make the cut into the plastic pipe. The process was a little slow but the
end result was a good square cut. It gave a better cut than any hacksaw or
stanley knife could do.

Adam

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Andy Hall
 
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On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 22:25:28 GMT, "ARWadsworth"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message


I certainly agree with respect to using good quality tools. However,
I've had perfectly good results with a £5 pipe cutter as well as a £15
one. I may be sufficiently inventive to have success with other
things like a mitre saw - who knows. I also follow manufacturers
instructions unless there is a very good reason not to do so. Here
there really isn't.


What would class as a very good reason?


I think you answered your own question, Adam. Presumably you didn't
have access to the proper tools for whatever reason on this occasion.



I did an emergency repair at neighbours house to a damaged copper pipe late
one night without access to a full toolbox and kit. I did have some plastic
pipe (Hep) some inserts and a pipe slice. I did not have my plastic pipe
cutters and instead put an insert into the Hep and used the pipe slice to
make the cut into the plastic pipe. The process was a little slow but the
end result was a good square cut. It gave a better cut than any hacksaw or
stanley knife could do.

Adam





--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
  #49   Report Post  
David
 
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In article .com,
writes

David wrote:
In article , Steve
writes
Steve wrote:
As an occasional and always very hesitant diy plumber, I've always used
traditional soldered or compression fittings in the past. I'm just
about to fit an outside tap and my local B&Q has a very patchy stock of
fittings. As a result I've bought a brass tap plus a selection of these
new fangled push fit fittings (some copper, some plastic).

I'm a bit wary of the push fit stuff - is there anything I should watch
out for? What if it leaks on test, how do I tighten it up or get it
apart again?

TIA

Steve


Thanks for all the advice. I'm sorry if I inadvertently started a
fight. Seems like there's more to this push fit stuff than I thought, I
think I'll take it back and get some traditional compression and
soldered fittings - I know what I'm doing with them.


I would go with the plastic and get the £5 cutter, its always useful to
have it because you're bound to do some more. I fitted my first complete
system with plastic about 6 yrs ago using a cheap cutter, no problems at
all, I still have it and use it regularly (with new blades). Plastic is
the quickest and simplest plumbing system you can fit.
--
David


And if on show will drop the price of your house, and at best make it
difficult to sell. use copper where pipes are exposed.

If you would care to google you find this is the most advised answer
anyway and it is exactly what I have done as well as many others, you
really are starting to sound like an amateur.
--
David
  #50   Report Post  
 
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David wrote:
In article .com,
writes

David wrote:
In article , Steve
writes
Steve wrote:
As an occasional and always very hesitant diy plumber, I've always =

used
traditional soldered or compression fittings in the past. I'm just
about to fit an outside tap and my local B&Q has a very patchy stoc=

k of
fittings. As a result I've bought a brass tap plus a selection of =

these
new fangled push fit fittings (some copper, some plastic).

I'm a bit wary of the push fit stuff - is there anything I should w=

atch
out for? What if it leaks on test, how do I tighten it up or get it
apart again?

TIA

Steve


Thanks for all the advice. I'm sorry if I inadvertently started a
fight. Seems like there's more to this push fit stuff than I thought=

, I
think I'll take it back and get some traditional compression and
soldered fittings - I know what I'm doing with them.

I would go with the plastic and get the =A35 cutter, its always useful=

to
have it because you're bound to do some more. I fitted my first comple=

te
system with plastic about 6 yrs ago using a cheap cutter, no problems =

at
all, I still have it and use it regularly (with new blades). Plastic is
the quickest and simplest plumbing system you can fit.
--
David


And if on show will drop the price of your house, and at best make it
difficult to sell. use copper where pipes are exposed.

If you would care to google you find this is the most advised answer
anyway and it is exactly what I have done as well as many others,


Reading many of the posts here they just slap plastic pipe anywhere.

you really are starting to sound like an amateur.


I am, in that I am not qualified in any way. Well I term myself as a
semi-pro as I earn a living from doing it. I am sure I know more than
all the plumbers I have come across, about the range of appliances and
types of systems available to get a decent flow at the showers and
baths, and save valuable space in a house. Thanks to forums like this.

--=20
David




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ARWadsworth
 
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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 22:25:28 GMT, "ARWadsworth"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message


I certainly agree with respect to using good quality tools. However,
I've had perfectly good results with a £5 pipe cutter as well as a £15
one. I may be sufficiently inventive to have success with other
things like a mitre saw - who knows. I also follow manufacturers
instructions unless there is a very good reason not to do so. Here
there really isn't.


What would class as a very good reason?


I think you answered your own question, Adam. Presumably you didn't
have access to the proper tools for whatever reason on this occasion.


Never lend your tools to your Dad. You will always need them as soon as he
has got them!

I do not have a lot of plumbing equipment and only do the odd bits of
plumbing. I still have no regrets on spending about £10 on a decent plastic
pipe cutter from a wholesalers. I believe it has paid for itself already on
the few jobs I have used it.

Adam

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David
 
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In article .com,
writes

Reading many of the posts here they just slap plastic pipe anywhere.

I don't think that's true, being a fan of plastic I have read most of
the posts that have come up on the subject and I don't see any
justification for your comment. The posts I have seen all state that its
fine for out of sight but use copper in visible areas. You will find
your mentor condemns plastic out of hand and insists that the only place
for plastic is in the toybox, perhaps you would like to get into a
discussion with him about it?


you really are starting to sound like an amateur.


I am, in that I am not qualified in any way. Well I term myself as a
semi-pro as I earn a living from doing it. I am sure I know more than
all the plumbers I have come across, about the range of appliances and
types of systems available to get a decent flow at the showers and
baths, and save valuable space in a house. Thanks to forums like this.

s'funny that tradesmen are considered professionals in their field and
yet we condemn many of them as cowboys, when we claim to be semi-pro is
that like half a cowboy? doing a professional job is better than being
labelled a diyer, semi-pro or pro and that, I guess, is where this forum
comes in.
The reason the combi argument rages around is that one size does not fit
all and space taken up by a cylinder is not always that valuable, many
people find combi's to be inadequate and have no problem with
conventional systems (like me for instance), you have found that the
information gleaned from a certain poster on here is useful for what you
do, fine, but I'm sure you will agree that it won't suit everybody in
every situation and that is where John falls down, he won't accept that
at all and takes the arguments to the silly lengths that they go to (I
do agree that its takes more than one to tango)
--
David
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David wrote:
In article .com,
writes

Reading many of the posts here they just slap plastic pipe anywhere.

I don't think that's true, being a fan of plastic I have read most of
the posts that have come up on the subject and I don't see any
justification for your comment. The posts I have seen all state that its
fine for out of sight but use copper in visible areas. You will find
your mentor condemns plastic out of hand and insists that the only place
for plastic is in the toybox, perhaps you would like to get into a
discussion with him about it?


I'm sure he is more than capable. If he said plastic is a no, no at all
costs, then I never took any notice.

you really are starting to sound like an amateur.


I am, in that I am not qualified in any way. Well I term myself as a
semi-pro as I earn a living from doing it. I am sure I know more than
all the plumbers I have come across, about the range of appliances and
types of systems available to get a decent flow at the showers and
baths, and save valuable space in a house. Thanks to forums like this.

s'funny that tradesmen are considered professionals in their field and
yet we condemn many of them as cowboys, when we claim to be semi-pro is
that like half a cowboy? doing a professional job is better than being
labelled a diyer, semi-pro or pro and that, I guess, is where this forum
comes in.


I'm sure there are some brilliant forward thinking plumbers who see the
clients views and main aims, unfortunately I have never come across
them. It wasn't their craft skills I was disappointed with, it was
their inability to deliver a system with minimal components that
releases space and gives high pressure flows.

The reason the combi argument rages around is that one size does not fit
all and space taken up by a cylinder is not always that valuable, many
people find combi's to be inadequate and have no problem with
conventional systems (like me for instance), you have found that the
information gleaned from a certain poster on here is useful for what you
do, fine, but I'm sure you will agree that it won't suit everybody in
every situation and that is where John falls down, he won't accept that
at all and takes the arguments to the silly lengths that they go to (I
do agree that its takes more than one to tango)


One size does not fit all that is true. I find that in most instances a
combi of some description will meet most of my requirements now I am
aware of the products available. I did put two combis in one house to
great success. Space is important to me, as is a neat and tidy box when
one is needed. I like some Gledhill cylinders as they are in a nice
square neat box with all the pumps inside out of the way. The last
think I want is a cold water tank and cylinder with pumps and valves
hanging off it. That is a real turn off when people open the cupboard.
In one house I fitted a combi at the back of the old airing cupboard,
to supply only the shower and put a low pressure combination cylinder
in the loft heated by the CH side of the combi. A great success, with
space liberated, fast bath fills and a high pressure shower. I am
interested in IMMs Rinnai suggestion to install outside and save inside
space and supply two body jet showers simultaneously. Rinnai, in
Runcorn, said they have a model that would do it, which being fitted
outside is a doddle to fit. Would my local plumber have suggested that?
I doubt it. This forum gave me that way and one landlord, Richman, has
already took it up in his student house.

I'm off to bed, as I have a hard week ahead.

--
David


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Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article .com,
wrote:
I am interested in IMMs Rinnai suggestion to install outside and save
inside space and supply two body jet showers simultaneously. Rinnai, in
Runcorn, said they have a model that would do it, which being fitted
outside is a doddle to fit.


Heard somewhere that external water heaters are a big turn off for buyers.

Would my local plumber have suggested that?
I doubt it. This forum gave me that way and one landlord, Richman, has
already took it up in his student house.


One moment you're on about ultra high class developments, next student
houses? This seems suspiciously like the 'one size fits all' philosophy of
your hero.

--
*I got a sweater for Christmas. I really wanted a screamer or a moaner*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #55   Report Post  
 
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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article .com,
wrote:
I am interested in IMMs Rinnai suggestion to install outside and save
inside space and supply two body jet showers simultaneously. Rinnai, in
Runcorn, said they have a model that would do it, which being fitted
outside is a doddle to fit.


Heard somewhere that external water heaters are a big turn off for buyers.


Did Mary whisper that in your ear while nibbling it? :-)



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Capitol
 
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The IMM suggestion of using a Rinnai heater to supply two simultaneous
showers sounds like a disaster on the way to a happening. Just do a
Google search for the users experience and you won't touch one with a
bargepole!

Regards
Capitol
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Capitol wrote:
The IMM suggestion of using a Rinnai heater to supply two simultaneous
showers sounds like a disaster on the way to a happening. Just do a
Google search for the users experience and you won't touch one with a
bargepole!


I haver Googled on the web and the goups and the majority of info is
that the Rinnai is spot on and very reliable. Few negative comments
overall. It is the largest produced multi-point in the world, which
would tell you something.

  #58   Report Post  
 
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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article .com,
wrote:
I don't buy this. When I started using plastic pipes I used a hacksaw
and trimmed of the pipe edge.


More Drivel spelling?

You are Drivel and I claim my 5 pounds.


Oh he is back....


?

While it is *possible* to use a hacksaw and trim to give a decent end
on the workbench, it's near impossible in an awkward location, so just
as with everything get the correct tool for the job.


How do you know? Have you ever done it?


I'm very careful about any pipe jointing in difficult locations. Avoids
floods. Of course by the sound of it all your 'refurbishments' will
include surface mounted plastic pipes - otherwise you'd have the correct
tools?

Take to flying kites. You and wind go together. :-)


The more you post here, the more it's obvious you don't make a living by
what you claim to.


Living up to your Moron image I see.


--
*Time is what keeps everything from happening at once.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


  #61   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article .com,
wrote:
The IMM suggestion of using a Rinnai heater to supply two simultaneous
showers sounds like a disaster on the way to a happening. Just do a
Google search for the users experience and you won't touch one with a
bargepole!


I haver Googled on the web and the goups and the majority of info is
that the Rinnai is spot on and very reliable. Few negative comments
overall. It is the largest produced multi-point in the world, which
would tell you something.


We don't use multi-points in the UK these days apart for the DHSS
apartments you 'renovate'.

--
*That's it! I‘m calling grandma!

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #62   Report Post  
Roger
 
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The message
from "Dave Plowman (News)" contains these words:

wrote:
A laser is no good as the wavelength has to be optimised


They breed them on this group that is for certain.


If you're not Drivel you speak the same peculiar 'English'.


I don't think he could be Dribble (using a spell checker) because
Dribble couldn't have maintained the separate identity for so long
without cocking it up more convincingly than just using the same brand
of idiot english. Given that he appeared on this ng shortly after Adam
and seems to think, against all the evidence, that the sun shines out of
Drivels arse my current theory is that he is Johns younger brother. Only
a blood relationship would be strong enough to overcome the derision
that dIMMS feeble attempts at erudition engender in the rest of us.

What continues to baffle me is why this pair of anonymous morons
continue to infest the newsgroup. Perhaps if we just ignored them (as I
have been trying to do over recent weeks) they will go away. Drivel is
unhelpful in at least 99% of his posts and I don't recall timegoesby
*ever* giving any useful advice. In fact the only advice (other than
worship dIMM) that I can recall that he has given is within this thread.
The rather contradictory notion that a hacksaw is to be preferred to a
cheap cutter.

--
Roger Chapman
  #63   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
Roger wrote:
I don't think he could be Dribble (using a spell checker) because
Dribble couldn't have maintained the separate identity for so long
without cocking it up more convincingly than just using the same brand
of idiot english.


He certainly has a 'style' of writing that reminds one of John. Perhaps
that's why he likes his 'poetry'.

--
*Virtual reality is its own reward*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #65   Report Post  
 
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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article .com,
wrote:
The IMM suggestion of using a Rinnai heater to supply two simultaneous
showers sounds like a disaster on the way to a happening. Just do a
Google search for the users experience and you won't touch one with a
bargepole!


I haver Googled on the web and the goups and the majority of info is
that the Rinnai is spot on and very reliable. Few negative comments
overall. It is the largest produced multi-point in the world, which
would tell you something.


We don't use multi-points in the UK these days apart for the DHSS
apartments you 'renovate'.


I wish I renovated those apartments. I could retire in few years if I
did.


--
*That's it! I'm calling grandma!

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.




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Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
Richard Conway wrote:
I haver Googled on the web and the goups and the majority of info is
that the Rinnai is spot on and very reliable. Few negative comments
overall. It is the largest produced multi-point in the world, which
would tell you something.


I suspect that big macs are probably the largest produced burgers in the
world - but I wouldn't recommend them


I'm wondering why you'd want the 'largest produced multi-point' given the
idea is to save space?

--
*I speak fluent patriarchy but it's not my mother tongue

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #69   Report Post  
Richard Conway
 
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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Richard Conway wrote:

I haver Googled on the web and the goups and the majority of info is
that the Rinnai is spot on and very reliable. Few negative comments
overall. It is the largest produced multi-point in the world, which
would tell you something.



I suspect that big macs are probably the largest produced burgers in the
world - but I wouldn't recommend them



I'm wondering why you'd want the 'largest produced multi-point' given the
idea is to save space?

I wouldn't - think the OP was after one though
  #70   Report Post  
 
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Andy Hall wrote:
On 31 Aug 2005 15:55:17 -0700, wrote:


Andy Hall wrote:
On 31 Aug 2005 11:30:37 -0700,
wrote:


Capitol wrote:
The IMM suggestion of using a Rinnai heater to supply two simultaneous
showers sounds like a disaster on the way to a happening. Just do a
Google search for the users experience and you won't touch one with a
bargepole!

I haver Googled on the web and the goups and the majority of info is
that the Rinnai is spot on and very reliable. Few negative comments
overall. It is the largest produced multi-point in the world, which
would tell you something.

Yes - that it's the largest produced multi-point in the world. Even
if true, this is no guarantee of any level of quality.


A Google tells you it is quality


Ah that's OK then.

and other research tells me that also.
I may go and see one. Andrews sell a rebadged Rinnai. It is the ideal
appliance for what I need, being cost effective and takes up little
space, which both are an added bonus.


Curious. You were talking about renovation of luxury palacial
premises recently.


Yes. Well some have been one bedroom flats, and others 3 bed semis. All
have to be tip top and atractive to sell ASAP to as near to asking
price as possible.

Somehow installing a geyser in one (or even out
at the back) doesn't seem to fit that image.....


Image is delivering the flowrate to the body jet showers. A Rinnai is
not an over the bath Ascot. Look at their web site. A nice, neat, slim
white box on the rear wall.


--

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl




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Andy Hall
 
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On 1 Sep 2005 16:13:49 -0700, wrote:


Andy Hall wrote:
On 31 Aug 2005 15:55:17 -0700,
wrote:


Curious. You were talking about renovation of luxury palacial
premises recently.


Yes. Well some have been one bedroom flats, and others 3 bed semis. All
have to be tip top and atractive to sell ASAP to as near to asking
price as possible.


Ah. I see.


Somehow installing a geyser in one (or even out
at the back) doesn't seem to fit that image.....


Image is delivering the flowrate to the body jet showers.


What flow rate? There was a recent thread here indicating that at
least 25-30lpm is needed for such a shower. This is easily
achievable with a storage system.

The mid range Rinnai, at 54kW is using almost the entire throughput of
a standard domestic gas supply and still manages less than 20lpm, and
that is at a 33 degree rather than the standard 35 degree temperature
rise. Specifications on some models are for only a 25 degree rise.

It would take the 70kW one and a commercial gas supply to achieve the
flow rate needed for a proper body jet shower.

Efficiency is quite poor. The 69kW input model has an output to
water of only 55.4kW - around 80%. This would not be allowed for a
normal boiler.



A Rinnai is
not an over the bath Ascot.


In effect, that's exactly what it is, except mounted outside. I
can't imagine why anybody would want a big white box on the outside of
their house. I would be surprised if their Japanese model is that
colour.



Look at their web site.


I have, and I am very underwhelmed.

A nice, neat, slim
white box on the rear wall.


I think it's plug ugly.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
  #72   Report Post  
Matt
 
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Andy Hall wrote:

What flow rate? There was a recent thread here indicating that at
least 25-30lpm is needed for such a shower. This is easily
achievable with a storage system.

The mid range Rinnai, at 54kW is using almost the entire throughput of
a standard domestic gas supply and still manages less than 20lpm, and
that is at a 33 degree rather than the standard 35 degree temperature
rise. Specifications on some models are for only a 25 degree rise.

It would take the 70kW one and a commercial gas supply to achieve the
flow rate needed for a proper body jet shower.

Efficiency is quite poor. The 69kW input model has an output to
water of only 55.4kW - around 80%. This would not be allowed for a
normal boiler.


You are just letting facts get in the way of the argument. :-)

Dribble has already been told many times how the Japs are moving to
copper tank storage in their droves but he still can't accept he is
wrong.

--
Matt (aka Dribble's nemesis)

The future's bright, the future's copper
Dump that combi today and keep the Dr away
  #74   Report Post  
 
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Andy Hall wrote:
On 1 Sep 2005 16:13:49 -0700, wrote:


Andy Hall wrote:
On 31 Aug 2005 15:55:17 -0700,
wrote:

Curious. You were talking about renovation of luxury palacial
premises recently.


Yes. Well some have been one bedroom flats, and others 3 bed semis. All
have to be tip top and atractive to sell ASAP to as near to asking
price as possible.


Ah. I see.

Somehow installing a geyser in one (or even out
at the back) doesn't seem to fit that image.....


Image is delivering the flowrate to the body jet showers.


What flow rate? There was a recent thread here indicating that at
least 25-30lpm is needed for such a shower.


The Triton requires around 10 litres a minute minimum. The more the
better. I haven't seen any that state 30 yet.

This is easily
achievable with a storage system.


With more expense and space taken up.

The mid range Rinnai, at 54kW is using almost the entire throughput of
a standard domestic gas supply and still manages less than 20lpm, and
that is at a 33 degree rather than the standard 35 degree temperature
rise. Specifications on some models are for only a 25 degree rise.

It would take the 70kW one and a commercial gas supply to achieve the
flow rate needed for a proper body jet shower.


You exaggerate somewhat. One outside model delivers 24 litres per
minute. The Triton Tower Shower takes a minimum of 8 litres per minute
at both the cold and hot inlets. The Rinnai can take up to 8 bar. The
Tower Showers will be at the maximum the mains can deliver up to 6 bar.
Tower showers are not thermostatic. This is where a Rinnai helps as it
accurately maintains the hot water temperature. The new 25mm plastic
main is delivering around 45 litres per minute at over 4 bar. The high
pressure is what people like in these showers. They have diverting
levers that switch from one set of jets to another keeping the flow
down. Fitting an unvented cylinder is way over the top in price and
consumes up lots of space and drops the pressure down to 3 bar or less.
The same with a thermal store, except the thermal store operates on
higher DHW pressures. I doubt if the floor could take the weight of
such a large cylinder, and I am using the old airing cupboard for a
shower anyway. The Rinnai will cope with two of them. I have checked it
all out, as you can see. The washing machine and dishwaters are cold
fill. I "may" fit a combi, which are cheap enough, to do the
kitchen sink, utility room and downstairs toilet taps. Then there will
be no taps robbing pressure from the Rinnai when full on.

Efficiency is quite poor. The 69kW input model has an output to
water of only 55.4kW - around 80%. This would not be allowed for a
normal boiler.


I queried this with Rinnai and they told me water heaters are exempt
from being condensing. The efficiency is about the same as boilers that
do not condense.

A Rinnai is
not an over the bath Ascot.


In effect, that's exactly what it is, except mounted outside.


That is the best part of it.

I
can't imagine why anybody would want a big white box on the outside of
their house. I would be surprised if their Japanese model is that
colour.


I have not looked at colours as I thought all were white.


Look at their web site.


I have, and I am very underwhelmed.

A nice, neat, slim
white box on the rear wall.


I think it's plug ugly.


A white box is a white box.

--

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl


  #75   Report Post  
 
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David wrote:
In article .com,
writes


Yes. Well some have been one bedroom flats, and others 3 bed semis. All
have to be tip top and atractive to sell ASAP to as near to asking
price as possible.

I think then that this is where you differ with many in the group
timegoesby, its not resale and space saving that are issues for a lot of
us.


I would say it is. Most people do things in their homes with a view to
add value. That is all people go on about, the value of their homes.

Many of us bought houses to live in and have systems that suit our
lifestyle without needing the space that removing a cylinder would give
us.


If you are satisfied with your system then leave it. I am not saying go
out and buy a Rinnai because it is the new thing to do. Through
initially doing it the wrong way, and saved by Internet forums as I was
pretty ignorant of CH and water matters, I look at it from an angle of
delivering the pressures and flow rates, saving space and cost. That
does not mean slapping in an inferior cheap and nasty system. At times
saving space and delivering the flow rates is important with cost is
way down. Expectations of people are high these days, and many people
who buy my houses are not British and come from countries where high
pressure showers are not a luxury. I have to deliver. I try to buy
products with quality brand names if possible. Bosch has a quality
image, so if I can install a Bosch then I will. A Bosch or Neff hob is
essential as the name is on show.

The reason John gets into so many arguments is that he won't accept
that other people have different needs and not all of us want to change
over to a combi when we have well designed systems that give us the
performance we require. I am not an expert on heating systems (I have
installed three to date though) but even I can accept that there are
alternatives to the sort of system I prefer and would change to suit.


I have found combis a God send at times and I know that the more
powerful models can fill baths fast enough. The much mocked idea of two
combis (on this forum) saved my bacon once, being highly cost effective
as well and saved a hell of a lot of installation hassle. Two Bosch
Juniors. For what I wanted they were just the business. The Bosch name
gave them appeal. When one shower was operating the shower off the
second combi had no influence at all. Joining the two to fill the bath
meant it was filled in a few minutes.

There are many ways of skinning a cat and I naturally go the quality
combi route as first option (I don't buy stuff from B&Q), and now
looking at the Rinnai route too if need be, until they can't cope,
for whatever reason, and then look at cylinders.

---
David




  #76   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
Posts: n/a
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On 3 Sep 2005 04:39:53 -0700, wrote:


Image is delivering the flowrate to the body jet showers.


What flow rate? There was a recent thread here indicating that at
least 25-30lpm is needed for such a shower.


The Triton requires around 10 litres a minute minimum. The more the
better. I haven't seen any that state 30 yet.


If it's only 10lpm it's going to be pee-willy. Since Triton are an
electric shower manufacturer, I suppose that on that scale it would be
better than an electric shower. Just.


This is easily
achievable with a storage system.


With more expense and space taken up.


The expense is not significant, and the space issue isn't either
unless it's a one room flat or something.



The mid range Rinnai, at 54kW is using almost the entire throughput of
a standard domestic gas supply and still manages less than 20lpm, and
that is at a 33 degree rather than the standard 35 degree temperature
rise. Specifications on some models are for only a 25 degree rise.

It would take the 70kW one and a commercial gas supply to achieve the
flow rate needed for a proper body jet shower.


You exaggerate somewhat.


Not really. The figures are there to see.


?One outside model delivers 24 litres per
minute. The Triton Tower Shower takes a minimum of 8 litres per minute
at both the cold and hot inlets.


That's the *minimum*. 8lpm is nowhere near enough for a body jet
shower.

Rinnai's figures are for a 33 degree temperature rise. This means
that in the winter, with an incoming water temperature of 5-8 degrees,
the output temperature at the stated flow rate will only just about be
at shower temperature - there won't be any addition of cold water.

?The Rinnai can take up to 8 bar. The
Tower Showers will be at the maximum the mains can deliver up to 6 bar.
Tower showers are not thermostatic. This is where a Rinnai helps as it
accurately maintains the hot water temperature. The new 25mm plastic
main is delivering around 45 litres per minute at over 4 bar. The high
pressure is what people like in these showers.


Says who?

In any case this is irrelevant because the water heater can't heat the
water at that rate.

They have diverting
levers that switch from one set of jets to another keeping the flow
down.


Then it's not a full body jet shower but a compromise - just like an
electric shower. These should be able to deliver a good flow rate at
all jets simultaneously.


Fitting an unvented cylinder is way over the top in price and
consumes up lots of space and drops the pressure down to 3 bar or less.


It isn't over the top on price unless you are trying to cut corners
and costs. I thought you said that you were doing high quality
conversions.

If you have water stored at 60 degrees, you can mix it with cold and
achieve an excellent flow rate.



The same with a thermal store, except the thermal store operates on
higher DHW pressures. I doubt if the floor could take the weight of
such a large cylinder, and I am using the old airing cupboard for a
shower anyway.


If the floor won't support the weight of a cylinder, I would call in a
structural engineer before your luxury conversion collapses in a pile
around you.




The Rinnai will cope with two of them.



Two of what? Little pee-willy showers that are like electric ones
perhaps, but nothing much more.


I have checked it
all out, as you can see.


Mmmm.... I would suggest looking at the basic physics of all of
this rather than relying on the marketing blurb on manufacturer web
sites. That's where Drivel goes wrong.

The washing machine and dishwaters are cold
fill.


That's normal these days and even if they were hot fill, that is
almost irrelevant from the purpose of HW system planning


I "may" fit a combi, which are cheap enough, to do the
kitchen sink, utility room and downstairs toilet taps. Then there will
be no taps robbing pressure from the Rinnai when full on.


Huh....??? If you turn on the taps the pressure will drop.




Efficiency is quite poor. The 69kW input model has an output to
water of only 55.4kW - around 80%. This would not be allowed for a
normal boiler.


I queried this with Rinnai and they told me water heaters are exempt
from being condensing. The efficiency is about the same as boilers that
do not condense.


That's true and fairly pathetic. Even the Americans can produce a
condensing hot water heater that achieves a 95% efficiency.





A Rinnai is
not an over the bath Ascot.


In effect, that's exactly what it is, except mounted outside.


That is the best part of it.


As long as you don't mind an ugly white box on the wall. Do you
imagine that this would enhance saleability of a property, let alone
its appeal?




I
can't imagine why anybody would want a big white box on the outside of
their house. I would be surprised if their Japanese model is that
colour.


I have not looked at colours as I thought all were white.


In Japanese culture, white is the colour associated with death.



Look at their web site.


I have, and I am very underwhelmed.

A nice, neat, slim
white box on the rear wall.


I think it's plug ugly.


A white box is a white box.


Exactly.


--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
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