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Old July 21st 05, 11:29 AM
Mr Fizzion
 
Posts: n/a
Default Combi boiler: Water Softener a good idea?

To quote the installation manual for the Greenstar 40 HE plus:

--------------------------------------------------------
"In exceptionally hard water areas a device to prevent
scale formation may be fitted or, alternatively, the maxi-
mum temperature reset to about 45C which may
reduce the risk of scale formation. The installation of a
scale inhibitor assembly should be in accordance with
the requirements of the local water company. Artificially
softened water must not be used to fill the central heat-
ing system. An isolating valve should be fitted to allow
for servicing. "
-------------------------------------------------------

According to Wessex Water, my water hardness is 280 ppm, which is
classified as hard.

Should I install a softener?

Is it a good idea to set the maximum temperature to 45C? (Presumably
this is the DHW temperature?) Would this result in any loss of
efficiency?

Thanks

Mr F


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Old July 21st 05, 11:53 AM
Christian McArdle
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Should I install a softener?

Your choice is:

1. Ion-exchange softener, which will have additional benefits, such as
preventing horrible stains on the sink/bath/toilet, feeling nicer on the
skin and using much less detergent. They cost a lot.

2. Phosphate dosing capsule, which will reduce scaling on heating
appliances, but have few additional benefits. They have moderate cost.

3. Electronic/magnetic conditioner, which help boost the bank accounts of
the charlatans that sell them.

Is it a good idea to set the maximum temperature to 45C? (Presumably
this is the DHW temperature?) Would this result in any loss of
efficiency?


It would increase both safety and efficiency, as it help reduce the boiler
return water temperature. It would help a shower mixer remain at a stable
temperature and flow. The main disadvantage is that it isn't so good for
washing dishes.

Christian.



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Old July 21st 05, 12:58 PM
Andy Hall
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:53:47 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

Should I install a softener?


Your choice is:

1. Ion-exchange softener, which will have additional benefits, such as
preventing horrible stains on the sink/bath/toilet, feeling nicer on the
skin and using much less detergent. They cost a lot.


Can be as little as 300, which vs. 100 or so for phosphate doser is
not a huge jump.

The consumable (salt grains or tablets) for a softener are offset by
savings in detergents and shampoos.



2. Phosphate dosing capsule, which will reduce scaling on heating
appliances, but have few additional benefits. They have moderate cost.

3. Electronic/magnetic conditioner, which help boost the bank accounts of
the charlatans that sell them.

Is it a good idea to set the maximum temperature to 45C? (Presumably
this is the DHW temperature?) Would this result in any loss of
efficiency?


It would increase both safety and efficiency, as it help reduce the boiler
return water temperature. It would help a shower mixer remain at a stable
temperature and flow. The main disadvantage is that it isn't so good for
washing dishes.

Christian.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
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Old July 21st 05, 01:36 PM
Doctor Drivel
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
Should I install a softener?


Your choice is:

1. Ion-exchange softener, which will have additional benefits, such as
preventing horrible stains on the sink/bath/toilet, feeling nicer on the
skin and using much less detergent. They cost a lot.

2. Phosphate dosing capsule, which will reduce scaling on heating
appliances, but have few additional benefits. They have moderate cost.

3. Electronic/magnetic conditioner, which help boost the bank accounts of
the charlatans that sell them.


Strange that the many major cylinder and boiler manufacturers recommend
them. I think W-B recommend them too. Gledhill, a quality company, do.

Is it a good idea to set the maximum temperature to 45C? (Presumably
this is the DHW temperature?) Would this result in any loss of
efficiency?


It would increase both safety and efficiency, as it help reduce the boiler
return water temperature. It would help a shower mixer remain at a stable
temperature and flow. The main disadvantage is that it isn't so good for
washing dishes.


If you have a dish washer that is really not an issue.

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Old July 21st 05, 01:39 PM
Doctor Drivel
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:53:47 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

Should I install a softener?


Your choice is:

1. Ion-exchange softener, which will have additional benefits, such as
preventing horrible stains on the sink/bath/toilet, feeling nicer on the
skin and using much less detergent. They cost a lot.


Can be as little as 300, which vs. 100 or so for phosphate doser is
not a huge jump.


100? They around 45 in the sheds inc' canister.

The consumable (salt grains or tablets) for a softener are offset by
savings in detergents and shampoos.


Not much.





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Old July 21st 05, 01:45 PM
Mr Fizzion
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Must a water softener go in the kitchen? I don't have a utility room,
and intend to put the new boiler in the loft.

I guess it wouldn't be practical to put the water softener in the loft
due to the frequent need to refill with salt?

Mr F.


On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:58:25 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:53:47 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

Should I install a softener?


Your choice is:

1. Ion-exchange softener, which will have additional benefits, such as
preventing horrible stains on the sink/bath/toilet, feeling nicer on the
skin and using much less detergent. They cost a lot.


Can be as little as 300, which vs. 100 or so for phosphate doser is
not a huge jump.

The consumable (salt grains or tablets) for a softener are offset by
savings in detergents and shampoos.



2. Phosphate dosing capsule, which will reduce scaling on heating
appliances, but have few additional benefits. They have moderate cost.

3. Electronic/magnetic conditioner, which help boost the bank accounts of
the charlatans that sell them.

Is it a good idea to set the maximum temperature to 45C? (Presumably
this is the DHW temperature?) Would this result in any loss of
efficiency?


It would increase both safety and efficiency, as it help reduce the boiler
return water temperature. It would help a shower mixer remain at a stable
temperature and flow. The main disadvantage is that it isn't so good for
washing dishes.

Christian.



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Old July 21st 05, 02:16 PM
Christian McArdle
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I guess it wouldn't be practical to put the water softener in the loft
due to the frequent need to refill with salt?


The problem is putting it near the water path to the outlets that you
require to be softened. In most houses, the incoming water main passes
through the kitchen and outlets are taken off either directly or via a tank
in the loft.

If you have a loft tank, the water softener can be anywhere on this line,
including the loft. If the cold water outlets are taken off at mains
pressure before the loft, the softener must be installed before those take
offs (but after the kitchen drinking tap and the outside tap).

A modern metered softener doesn't actually use much salt. I wouldn't
hesitate to put one in an easily accessible loft, except that my house is
entirely mains pressure, so the softener must be placed in the kitchen. When
repiping the kitchen, I used a three pipe solution, with hard cold, soft
cold and soft hot pipework. Unfortunately, I can't actually afford a
suitable high flow softener ATM, so the soft pipework is hard.

Christian.


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Old July 21st 05, 02:18 PM
Christian McArdle
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Strange that the many major cylinder and boiler manufacturers recommend
them. I think W-B recommend them too. Gledhill, a quality company, do.


No doubt they do, for commercial reasons. I have no trouble with the
charlatans selling snake oil. Good luck to them.

It would increase both safety and efficiency, as it help reduce the

boiler
return water temperature. It would help a shower mixer remain at a stable
temperature and flow. The main disadvantage is that it isn't so good for
washing dishes.


If you have a dish washer that is really not an issue.


Indeed, if you don't mind boiling an occasional kettle when handwashing
pans.

Christian.


  #9   Report Post  
Old July 21st 05, 02:29 PM
Doctor Drivel
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
Strange that the many major cylinder and boiler manufacturers recommend
them. I think W-B recommend them too. Gledhill, a quality company, do.


No doubt they do, for commercial reasons. I have no trouble with the
charlatans selling snake oil. Good luck to them.


It seems they think different to you. Companies with reputations to protect
do not recommend crap.

It would increase both safety and efficiency, as it help reduce the

boiler
return water temperature. It would help a shower mixer remain at a

stable
temperature and flow. The main disadvantage is that it isn't so good

for
washing dishes.


If you have a dish washer that is really not an issue.


Indeed, if you don't mind boiling an occasional kettle when handwashing
pans.


45-50C is enough to handwash a pan.

  #10   Report Post  
Old July 21st 05, 02:59 PM
Mr Fizzion
 
Posts: n/a
Default

45-50C is enough to handwash a pan.

I always thought water became too hot for hands at around 40 degrees.
This site http://www.tap-water-burn.com/ seems to confirm that.

"Even though this is a 'relatively-safe' temperature, exposure to
water set at 110 F is painful; the human pain threshold is around
106-108 F"

110 = 43.3 C
108 = 42.2 C
106 = 41.1 C

Mr F.





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