Hi all

I am trying to finalise drawing details for submission to building control.
Intend to install steel beam to support ceiling joists by "notching" joist
ends into either side of beam.
I do not believe that this beam is taking any load other than the weight of
ceiling/joist materials (the roof is traditional construction, not modern
braced truss).

What sort of arrangement is required/expected at the ends of the beam for
support?
I seem to remember talk of padstones and also the need to pack up the beam
ends with slate (if adjustment is necessary) and not simply rest the steel
on a mortar bed.
Also I expect it will be necessary to "build in", ie brick fully around the
beam end profile to achieve solid fixing.

Can anyone comment on the above please?
Also, what form do the padstones take? I anticipate a concrete block maybe
18" long to shed the beam end load into the brick/block work beneath.

TIA


Phil

TheScullster wrote:
Can anyone comment on the above please?

I recently put in a steel beam when slapping through a load brearing
wall, the resulting gap was 2500mm. One end was bolted to a vertical
standard but the other end rested on a padstone.

We were quite careful to level the padstone with the top of the
steelwork so that no packing would be necessary under the beam - I
think you want the beam right onto the padstone. In you case, plant one
and level the other from that. You want to bed the padstones on to the
existing brickwork and leave for a day before putting the load on.

You don't say whether you're 'landing' perpendicular or parallel to the
wall which might make a difference, but in general I don't think you
need any more 'bricking up' than simply reinstating the surrounding
brickwork. If the top of the beam would just be sitting free then I'd
suggest two resin anchors (or rawlbolts, but I'm a convert to resin
anchors) into the padstone.

In our case we landed at a 90 degree bend in the wall and had the wall
above the steelwork so it was easy.

Also, what form do the padstones take? I anticipate a concrete block maybe
18" long to shed the beam end load into the brick/block work beneath.

The pastone specified in my case was a 300x100 (x wall width) concrete.
The actual minimum bearing of specified by the architect was only
100mm, we added another 50mm for good measure so you don't need a huge
overlap. This was for a 178x102x19UB (I profile beam)

Don't forget fire protection - that's a bu**er!

Our plans stated 330x100x150 deep concrete padstones to support our
152x89 Universal Beams. Total length of beam was around 6m but
supported around halfway along its length as well as at each end in our
case.

The sizes of the beams and the sizes of the padstones were calculated
by a strucural engineer based upon the plans drawn up by our designer.
It was a couple of years ago now but I seem to recall paying somewhere
around =A350 cash for the engineers report which had to be submitted
along with the plans to the BCO.

Suggestions I heard for the padstones were to cast them myself using
concrete or to use kerbstones which are also about the right size. In
the end I bought some concrete lintels and cut them in half.

Urchaidh said:

in general I don't think you
need any more 'bricking up' than simply reinstating the surrounding
brickwork. If the top of the beam would just be sitting free then I'd
suggest two resin anchors (or rawlbolts, but I'm a convert to resin
anchors) into the padstone.

The beam is to be installed perpendicular to the walls at each end and
supported on the "inner leaf". This is to allow removal of a single block
wall (which spans the width of the room) used to support ceiling joist
joints.
As this forms remodelling of an existing extension, this means that one end
sits on the original house outside brick wall and the other on the internal
extension block wall.

By bricking up, I meant reinstating the brick/block work around the beam
end, particularly to give restraint to the top flange of the beam. This
would I expect make the use of resin anchors or other fixings unnecessary.

What measures did you take for fire protection?
Is there some paint that can be applied?

Phil

In article ,
TheScullster wrote:
What sort of arrangement is required/expected at the ends of the beam
for support? I seem to remember talk of padstones and also the need to
pack up the beam ends with slate (if adjustment is necessary) and not
simply rest the steel on a mortar bed. Also I expect it will be
necessary to "build in", ie brick fully around the beam end profile to
achieve solid fixing.

I've seen all sorts of fancy pads specified for the beam to sit on, but in
most cases removing bricks etc to the required size of the padstone,
shuttering to just above the beam base then ramming in a suitable concrete
mix will be fine. Assuming a normal brick wall, either side of the beam
and the top should be made good with brick bats and mortar.

--
*I'm not as think as you drunk I am.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

TheScullster wrote:
By bricking up, I meant reinstating the brick/block work around the beam
end, particularly to give restraint to the top flange of the beam. This
would I expect make the use of resin anchors or other fixings unnecessary.

Sounds fair. You'd probably only need worry about lateral movement,
it's not going to go up/down

Does the beam go in level? Any angle would exert a force on the
extension wall that you'd need to take into account. Also, if you're
sticking it on the inner wall make sure you don't accidentally bridge
the cavity.

What measures did you take for fire protection?
Is there some paint that can be applied?

In my case the beam was load bearing so I needed 1 hour protection
which I did by cladding with British Gypsum Fireline board. In your
case, since it's not structural, and as the roof joists would will go
long before the beam does anyway, you probably don't need to worry. I
only mentioned it as it's one of the things I forgot initailly and is
worth checking.

In message , TheScullster
writes

The beam is to be installed perpendicular to the walls at each end and
supported on the "inner leaf". This is to allow removal of a single block
wall (which spans the width of the room) used to support ceiling joist
joints.
As this forms remodelling of an existing extension, this means that one end
sits on the original house outside brick wall and the other on the internal
extension block wall.

Umm.. nothing to do with pad stones but, you did mention a conventional
roof. Is there any chance that the ceiling joists are tieing the feet of
the rafters? Or have I misunderstood the scheme:-)

regards

--
Tim Lamb

Tim Said

Umm.. nothing to do with pad stones but, you did mention a conventional
roof. Is there any chance that the ceiling joists are tieing the feet of
the rafters? Or have I misunderstood the scheme:-)

Good call Tim

This is one aspect that I am not clear on.
Is it usual for traditional roofs to rely on the joists as ties, or are the
rafters nailed to the wall plates?
The roof:
comprises 9 frames at 450 centres
two of these frames have ties (I think these are called collars) 6" x 2"
about 1/3 of the way up the rafters there are 8" x 2" beams edge on to the
rafters and built in to the wall at each end, but I suppose these will take
the weight of the roof rather than prevent it "splaying".

Thanks

Phil

In message , TheScullster
writes
Tim Said

Umm.. nothing to do with pad stones but, you did mention a conventional
roof. Is there any chance that the ceiling joists are tieing the feet of
the rafters? Or have I misunderstood the scheme:-)

Good call Tim

This is one aspect that I am not clear on.
Is it usual for traditional roofs to rely on the joists as ties, or are the
rafters nailed to the wall plates?
The roof:
comprises 9 frames at 450 centres
two of these frames have ties (I think these are called collars) 6" x 2"
about 1/3 of the way up the rafters there are 8" x 2" beams edge on to the
rafters and built in to the wall at each end, but I suppose these will take
the weight of the roof rather than prevent it "splaying".

I'm a farmer so run my comments past the structural experts before
cutting anything:-)

The 8"x2" beams are purlins.

Unless the outside walls are buttressed, you must have something
preventing the roof thrust pushing them flat. This can be done with ties
above ceiling level but usually the ceiling joist does both jobs.

I assume you are trying to avoid having the beam projecting down into
the room.

Put the beam under the rafters and make the fire proofing a feature. You
can Hilti nail wood to the bottom flange and secure the side pieces to
noggins bolted in the web. If you are careful to match the grain, you
can make a realistic timber beam. Somebody will know how thick the wood
has to be to meet the regulations (if needed).

Do you actually need a beam, if there is no load on the joists?

regards

--
Tim Lamb

Tim

Thanks for continued support!

I assume you are trying to avoid having the beam projecting down into the
room.

Exactly


Put the beam under the rafters ..............


Do you mean joists??


Do you actually need a beam, if there is no load on the joists?

I certainly need something. There is a wall running across the room at the
point where I intend to install the beam. At this point the joists are cut
and overlapped with the overlap sat on top if the wall, presumably to keep
the beam span and therefore the section size down. The joist spans are
approx 3.5m and 1.5m.


Phil

In message , TheScullster
writes
Put the beam under the rafters ..............


Do you mean joists??

Yes.


Do you actually need a beam, if there is no load on the joists?

I certainly need something. There is a wall running across the room at the
point where I intend to install the beam. At this point the joists are cut
and overlapped with the overlap sat on top if the wall, presumably to keep
the beam span and therefore the section size down. The joist spans are
approx 3.5m and 1.5m.

I suppose you could look and see if they are nailed together or jointed
in some other way.

My active brain cell was struggling with how you are going to insert
both sets of joist ends into the beam webs. I suppose you would have to
support the ceilings and slide it across.

You really must get some proper advice before embarking on this project.

regards
--
Tim Lamb

Tim

I suppose you would have to support the ceilings and slide it across.

Yes, with one wall being external, the idea is to cut a hole and thread the
beam through from the outside.
This is a method suggested by my builder and other group members.


You really must get some proper advice before embarking on this project.

I was hoping to size the beam myself and run the ideas past the building
control structural engineer.
I have a HNC in civil/structural engineering, but as my questions make
clear, there is no practical experience to support this.

Whilst I am trying to DIY as far as possible, maybe it's time to pay.

Thanks for your input on this, Tim

Regards

Phil

"TheScullster" wrote in message
...

snip

I was hoping to size the beam myself and run the ideas past the building
control structural engineer.
I have a HNC in civil/structural engineering, but as my questions make
clear, there is no practical experience to support this.

Just what 'bits of paper' do BCOs expect/demand from the
Structural Engineer's Calc's? Is it sufficient to determine
maximum load deflection appropriate selection (from finite range?);
or does the BCO expect a 'member of the beam-selecting club' certificate?

--

Brian

In message , TheScullster
writes

You really must get some proper advice before embarking on this project.

I was hoping to size the beam myself and run the ideas past the building
control structural engineer.
I have a HNC in civil/structural engineering, but as my questions make
clear, there is no practical experience to support this.

Ignoring the support from the end walls you are creating a structure
rather like two parallel hard back books stood on edge with a third,
open book, forming the roof ridge balanced on top.

There may be a way of carrying the *tie* over the top of the joists
leaving clearance for the top flange or additional *collars* may be a
way out but putting the question to an expert should not cost money;
only if you invite him to do the sums:-)

I have to go harvesting.

regards
--
Tim Lamb

Brian said

Just what 'bits of paper' do BCOs expect/demand from the
Structural Engineer's Calc's? Is it sufficient to determine
maximum load deflection appropriate selection (from finite range?);
or does the BCO expect a 'member of the beam-selecting club' certificate?

So far the plans I have submitted simply show a wall being removed and a
lintel being installed to replace it!
As expected BCO have approved the plans, but included a condition that more
detailed information be supplied.

I believe they will expect:

Calculations to support the beam size selected.
Relevant details of installation eg what will it be sat on (padstones etc),
how will it be secured.
Sufficient information about features in the vicinity - I have a lintelled
opening at 90 degrees to the proposed beam in close proximity.
Fire proofing measures to be used

My discussion with Tim has highlighted that my understanding is incomplete
as to what the joists are doing as far as the roof structure as a whole is
concerned.
I suspect that, if I submit calculations myself, the BCO will give them a
cursory glance, decide that I probably know what I'm talking about and OK
the modifications without looking at the bigger picture.
So if, through inexperience, my proposal is fundamentally flawed, the
problem may be discovered at BCO site inspection time (in which case
builder's costs rocket due to re-work) or may be discovered at roof collapse
time!

Phil

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:38:14 +0100, "TheScullster"
wrote:

Hi all

I am trying to finalise drawing details for submission to building control.
Intend to install steel beam to support ceiling joists by "notching" joist
ends into either side of beam.
I do not believe that this beam is taking any load other than the weight of
ceiling/joist materials (the roof is traditional construction, not modern
braced truss).

What sort of arrangement is required/expected at the ends of the beam for
support?
I seem to remember talk of padstones and also the need to pack up the beam
ends with slate (if adjustment is necessary) and not simply rest the steel
on a mortar bed.
Also I expect it will be necessary to "build in", ie brick fully around the
beam end profile to achieve solid fixing.

Can anyone comment on the above please?
Also, what form do the padstones take? I anticipate a concrete block maybe
18" long to shed the beam end load into the brick/block work beneath.

TIA


Phil


You need padstones to spread the load from the beam into the wall. My
engineer worked out the size and strnegth for mine. My luck was in,
and 7N blocks fitted the requirments in every case. Aparently
curbstones can alos be used. My wall is 4N blocks, but he worked it
out for a wall made from 3N blocks.

I have also used sandstone blocks of similar sizes, as these are even
stronger.

Stale packers are OK, as in the right direction, its stonger too.


To attach the rafters, my engineer specifed as 2x4 bolted on every
800mm with 10mm bolts, on alternating sides of the RSJ. Then you just
nail the rafters to the 4x2

Rick

Yes, that's the way to do it. A good reason for not using pre-made padstones is that you may well find that your RSJs have some twist. That would seriously reduce the contact area. Casting concrete in situ ensures maximum load bearing.

--
For full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy...ds-733706-.htm

On 27/08/2020 20:00, BR wrote:
Yes, that's the way to do it. A good reason for not using pre-made
padstones is that you may well find that your RSJs have some twist. That
would seriously reduce the contact area. Casting concrete in situ
ensures maximum load bearing.

Hey Phil, it must be a relief to have that answered at long last - only
took 15 years!


--
Cheers,

John.

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On 27/08/2020 20:00, BR wrote:
Yes, that's the way to do it. A good reason for not using pre-made
padstones is that you may well find that your RSJs have some twist. That
would seriously reduce the contact area. Casting concrete in situ
ensures maximum load bearing.

You know that bit just above where you wrote where it says "posted 15
years ago"?