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#41
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On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:19:15 +0100, Ed Sirett
wrote: On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:14:29 +0000, Martin Evans wrote: o plumber 2 (who spent a considerable amount of time with me - what patience) suggested going to a combi boiler (although he would fit a conventional one) - in fact a Worcester Greenstar 440 floor standing combi boiler. He said I Maybe wrong but IIRC all Greenstar boilers are condensing. Sorry, I meant to say he would fit a condensing boiler with my conventional hot water store system as opposed to a combi system. a) at 20l/min at 35 degrees C rise, running on mains pressure (subject to testing mains pressure which I'm given to believe is good) it was more than sufficient to match my existing pumped shower and everything else. Initially before the store of HW in the boiler gives out this is likely true. The usability of the system is likely to be good enough except for high speed bath running. Well, what do I know (which I why I posted here). What I did take some confidence from is that the boiler he recommended was not small and did seem to be the higher end of the hot water producing rates of the boilers I'd looked at. I sort of thought if this (higher end) boiler didn't do the trick someone would have noticed/complained and I'd have been able to find this out on the net. (Wary of potential jokes) we don't bath that often - the shower is the main thing. If the bath takes a little longer to fill so be it. Even with a stored hot water system, the filling of a bath needs attention to make sure it is not getting too hot or cold. b) it would be cheaper to install than keeping my existing system as it was far less components and mostly required ripping (bypassing) existing system out rather than renewing/replacing. Basically, the cold water tank would be bypassed, the cylinder goes, my shower pump goes, electrics are trivial since all that is needed it something to the boiler. I liked the sound of losing my shower pump IF the output at the shower head was as good since the shower pump is noisy. A wall stat (preferrably programmable) will also be needed to comply with current regs. From youomments a programmable wall stat seems the way to go - I will make sure this is in the spec and that the TRV currently in the hall radiator also goes. c) my gas supply to boiler was 15mm and needed to be 22mm. There is no easy way to get a 22mm pipe from the 22mm pipe at the back of my meter to the boiler but it could be run outside (around a 3m run) so long as the pipe was held off the wall. And properly sleeved etc. etc. All true. There was no menion of sleeving but given the thoroughness of plumber 1 I am assumig this was a detail he just didn' give rather than one he wasn't going to do - but now aware of it I'm all the wiser. d) To check the new system would cope/match my existing shower pump I needed to lookup the output from my pump (i've struggles with this as the plate on it quote 3 l/min numbers). Also, I needed to check the spec of the shower valve in my ensuite to ensure it was OK for the new increased standing pressure. These are not the end of the world to replace later if they are unsatisfactory. I am probably pushing it here but I've tried (jn vain) to find out if this valve is up to it. I can't find anything in the accompanying literature which helps (perhaps I've lost it - but I doubt it). What I know is that it is from the Hansgrohe talis range, fitted about 5 years ago and that my pump delivers (I think - see previous comments) around 9l/min ( I could post all the numbers on the existing pump). Interestingly, plumber 2 who has now provided a quote has specifically said the Miras shower valve I have on another gravity fed shower is OK and specifically said they don't know about my ensuite hansgrohe valve (so if it needs replacing I'd have to pay the costs). e) we discussed pluming etc and the flue would be routed outside and up the wall to above head height. (=2m). That avoids the need for a terminal guard but no word on the possible pluming problems and air-space wars. Argh neighbours. As I think I said, there is around 3 ft to a 6ft high fence and then another 3ft to my neighbours house wall. She is coming up to 80 and frets about everything (as I suspect everyone coming up to 80 does). In fact she rang the doorbell tonight asking me to look at her boiler because she was worried it was going to explode because she'd turned her heating off and her upstairs radiators were getting warm. I don' think there'll be any real issue her but I would not want her walking past whilst some hot geyser shot out - she'd think it was wrong/broken/angerous and would want reassuring. f) we discussed reliability of Worcester 440 and he said he had fitted loads, it was good, needed to be serviced once a year and although slightly more involved than a conventional boiler was not time consuming or expensive. On board diagnostics would even detect a leak in my heating system. Fair comment. g) Mentioning some pipework in concrete floor he was unperturbed, suggesting the increased pressure of my new sealed system was not that high and if existing system was working I'd be OK. See my previous post, however a positive attitude has much to commend it. That's what I thought - I definitely had a better feeling about this guy. h) I mentioned past experience of combi boilers (over 12 years ago) and he said the worcester 440 was miles ahead of whatever I had then and I would not suffer from excessive reduced flow in winter. He did go on quite a bit about what temperature my shower ran at and how I was mixing alot of cold water with hot to get confortable. Fair comment. This boiler has good performance at the expense of floor space, size and weight. Floor space, size and weight are not really a factor - I've got plenty of space, and a concrete floor and all I have to contend with is my wife's possible complaints that she's not got as much space as she would have liked. That is minimal compared with the shower isn't as good. i) he said my existing cylinder (although only 5 years old) was not up to spec since it did not have 2" of insulation (I might have the exact number wrong). Possibly true. You may be able to detect I'm starting to favour plumber 1 by now but plumber 2 did not mention this at all and now his quote came in it included rotating the cylinder through 90 degress for easier access rather than because it was not up to spec. j) all (optional but included in his price) would be in the boiler itself except for a room thermostat. He pointed out the problem with having a room thermstat in the hall where the radiator had a TRV. The TRV must go. As discussed. I've now got the message - thanks. k) the worcester 440 had an in built 12l (I think) vessel which had some advantage in the speed in which hot water reached my taps - not sure exactly. See 'f' and 'a' and 'h' Cost £2600 (for combi boiler worcester 440 floor standing boiler, replacement gas supply to boiler, ripping out / bypassing old system) - sealed system. Probably about right. Plumber 2 came in with 2 quotes for keeping my existing system (upgrading to specs) or going to a combi. Prices we £1788 for drain down system, disconnect boiler and remove from site and dispose of same,. Supply and fit worcester 28HE condensing boiler which would eliminate any problems with air in system, It also allows to retian existing hot water storage system cylinder but we would have to turn this to allow better access to pipes and to motorised valve. Cap off heating tank and remove same. Connect new boiler to existing central heating pipes. Supply and install new twin channel digital programmer complete with optimising room temperature control. Carry out all necessary electrical work to boiler and controls, including any necessary bonding to work we arried out. Refill system, drain and flush with BC10 fluid. Refill with addition of inhibitor and commission new boiler, carrying out necessary gas tests. Fill in Benchmark logbook and submit Corgi Notification as required under current regulations. Test the above and leave in full working order. Sorry, I' getting cynical perhaps but I really liked the "Test the above and leave in full working order" - I'd enjoy paying for that - which surely the job would not be complete without. quote 2 was basically to convert to a combi Bosch Greenstar 35CDI and required work - specific exclusions for the Hansgrohe shower valve which may not be up to the job - I don't like this as I'd expect that a plumber could confirm (or get confirmed) whether this shower valve was up to the job instead of saying it may/may_not_be and it is up to me to sort it out - I'm paying for the work and I'm not the expert - surely it is part of the expertise of the plumber (you are paying for) to spot this and satisfy themselves. If plumber looked at it and said it was not up to the job them it could be added to the quote but leaving it to me to decide when I don't know does not seem good enough. Cost £2380. Quote gives the possibility of upgrading to greenstar 40cdi at an extra of £200 + VAT without any recommendation - why? On what basis am I supposed to decide whether the 35CDI or the 40CDI is the right choice - here again - I'm not the expert and that is why I've called a plumber - if there are choices I'd expect some info to help me to decide. There were 2 exclusions (fair enough except I'd not receive any advice) but on top of the quote was "flushing the system to get rid of sludge/debris which may have accumulated in the system over time and that could affect the performance of the new boiler" and "You do not have to have this done but it is possible that you may encounter problems with the manufacturers waranty should the bolier fail due to its operating on a dirty system, As installers therefore, we have to recommend that the system is flushed thorouhly before a new boiler is installled." . "jet flush of your central heating system would be £330.00 plus vat". Scare tactics? o plumber number 2 quote not received yet but it was for a wall mounting Worcester 3XX (something) 12l/min output at X degrees C rise (have not got the brochure). See quote above. o concurred with plumber 1 than cylinder was not up to spec. Also said the hot water feed to my shower pump was too high in the cylinder. Also said the cylninder would be better turned through 90 degrees for easier access to valve - fair enough. o concurred with plumber 1 re TRV and room therm in same room. o on business of 22mm gas feed to boiler - some needed it some don't - often plumbers size up from 15 to 22 - a bit wishy washy - I was not certain what was required but if a 22mm pipe was required as with plumber 1 it could be run along outside wall. o on combi boilers he would do a quote for both but a combi would be more expensive since it required ripping out a lot of stuff - somewhat at odds with plumber 1 who said the exact opposite. o as with plumber 1 he'd need specs for ensuite shower valve as it might not be up to increased standing pressure if we went combi boiler but the myra shower valve in bathroom was certainly OK (I knew this anyway as some tosser who previously installed shower in bathromm before we moved here plumbed it in to the bath supply where the cold water was mains pressure). When it leaked badly I needed to replace it in a hurry and found I needed a more expensive valve to handle the imbalance. Since then it has been replumbed to the cold tank. o on combi boilers and my concern over loss of output in winter and at my main ensuite shower he said it would cope so long as someone did not use any water elsewhere in the house (whether cold or hot). He recommended not having a combi boiler. o servicing required for worcester 3XX was once every 12 to 18 months and would cost around £50. o room thermostat was required and they would not need to put cables in as it was a (cableless) radio one. o would quote for a powerflush at £395 which would take the best part of a day as it involved connecting to heating system and flushing through plus connecting to each radiator individually. When I suggested this sounded alot (BG quoted £200) he said if the system had been drained recently and was clean I could just ignore that in the quote. They would have to drain the system twice anyway and lfush it with some agent. He didn't try to sell it to me especially when I said the system had been drained more than 5 times in the last 2 years alone and drained out clean (also all of my radiators except one is brand new). Someone who having got a powerflush gadget actually wishes to used only when needed, a rare event, a mark of honesty perhaps? and at £330 + VAT and the comment that this would take nearly all day made me go off this guy. o mains pressure was good in my area and not a worry. o it cost them £5 to register the installation with Corgi who would send me something I needed to keep as it would be required when I sold my house. Actually £4 by phone and £2.50 online. Hardly worth itemising really. As to whether you _really_ will need it when you sell - who knows. It is a legal requirement to register the exchange of a heating appliance with building control it is done with this. In this increasinglly nanny state I can imagine having the documentation for this kind of work will be necessary. I cast my mind back to when we bought this house and after we did I very seriously thought about suing the surveyor who did not pick up some substantial faults we could have used as a bargaining chip which have cost us big bucks since. o gas mains was being updated in my area since it fell off too much (and caused some boilers to shut down) early in the morning when all these new condensing boilers switched on. Some condensors are quite sensitive to under-pressure others are very tolerant. Condensors use no more gas and possibly less than non-condensors. Combis tend to place bigger peak demands on the supply network. However if the mains are being fixed in your area what's the problem? Probablty none and that is a good thing - plus point for local plumbers .. What I think is a summary of the "true" bits of advice/information I received from BG, local plumbers and this news group a o you have to fit a condensing boiller unless you can amass 1000 pts on a rather difficult to achieve scale. Certainly, a replacement boiler is unlikey to achieve 1000 pts. Yep o plumning - I'm not going there - it seems a contentious issue. o when moving to a condensing boiler you need a fully pumped system (no gravity fed hot water) - this is law. Yep o don't have TRV on the radiator in the same room as a room thermostat - also avoid rooms with other heat sources - kitchen, rooms with fires etc Ed. Just to be clear . TRVs are needed nearly everywhere. The roomstat is needed somewhere but not with the TRV - in the hall is a good place. remove existing TRV if needed. o condensing boilers produce condensate which is slightly acidic and has to have somewhere to drain away. Yep o some boilers come with bypass valves, some don't. You can't go all TRVs without a bypass valve. If the boiler says it needs a bypass you must have one TRVs or not. Poimt taken - I was not clear enough. o You need a "boiler interlock" that completely turns off the boiler when the house is hot. Normally this is supplied by the room thermostat. If there is none, another method must be used, such as a flow switch on the heating circuit - thanks Christian/Andy/John. Yep, but go for the room stat. The alternative gear will not be cheaper, people will be less familiar with it. A programmble room stat can provided an accessible heating control. My fault for not taking the point you made earlier - I will be following this up. o some condensing boilers are modulating so instead of a constant power output they adjust to conditions. Minimum outout of boiler is worht looking at. I don't think you'll find any fixed power modern boilers condensing or not. The lower minimum the better. Provided the HW heating is OK (combi). If you co for a cylinder then I suggest calculating the heating requirements and then selecting the right sized boiler again lloking at the minimum. o There should be electrical bonding from the meter to the main earthing point in the house. The service bonding ought to be done on the consumer side of the meter rather than the supply as used to be the case. Yep o water cylinders are subject to building regs and upgrading a system might (or must) mean upgrading the cylinder to current regs. Also, see fast recovery cylinders (this was not mentioned to me by anyone quoting). A compliant cylinder is a fast(ish) cylinder. If I go combi this would be irrelevant, Both plumbers seem to be saying the right sort of things give or take a few details. The second one wishes to fit a cheaper lighter simpler combi with much less HW output. Still good for shower (but probably not as good as what you have with a pump). I don't like hedgeing my bets. Ok, since posting the numbers are interesting since the keep my exisitng system but upgrade my boiler comes in at £1788 but then dd powerflush ( £330 + VAT) and £200 uograde to biigger boiler and plumber 1 is looking quite attractiive. If the wiring from the hall to the boiler is awkward then the £50 extra for a wireless room stat could be worth the extra. It is not that awkward. I replsaered hall and put in 25mm conduit which it would be easy to pull though unlike previous system which was so tiht there was no chance off pulling through new cable. Thanksagain for the help and advice. Martin -- Martin J. Evans Wetherby, UK |
#42
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In message , Martin Evans
writes I don't like hedgeing my bets. Ok, since posting the numbers are interesting since the keep my exisitng system but upgrade my boiler comes in at £1788 but then dd powerflush ( £330 + VAT) It might be worth your while looking here http://www.kamco.co.uk/weblinksENGINEERS.htm As for prices, sorry, I DIY, always -- geoff |
#43
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The boiler is exclusive to British Gas - The British Gas 330, so I
can't find it elsewhere - unless someone else knows better. Martin -- Martin J. Evans Wetherby, UK A few BG engineers have told me that their "exclusive" boilers are rebadged Worcester Bosch's, which would also explain why ex-BG engineers favour fitting WB boilers like the one that just did mine. Check the Worcester Bosch equivalent boiler. You may find it's virtually the same. |
#44
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What I wonder about condensing boilers is whether the low temprerature
plume can spread legionella. ? -- B Thumbs Change lycos to yahoo to reply Since when has steam been considered low temperature? |
#45
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In article ,
RedOnRed wrote: What I wonder about condensing boilers is whether the low temprerature plume can spread legionella. ? Since when has steam been considered low temperature? It's not steam. It's water vapour. Like clouds, if you want. -- *If your feet smell and your nose runs, you're built upside down. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#46
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On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:03:22 +0100, "RedOnRed" wrote:
What I wonder about condensing boilers is whether the low temprerature plume can spread legionella. ? -- B Thumbs Change lycos to yahoo to reply Since when has steam been considered low temperature? Never, but you don't get steam from a condensing boiler flue. It produces water vapour at temperatures 100C, and at normal operating temperatures, below 60C - hence the reason for the question. However, in practice, legionella does not seem to have been a problem with condensing boilers -- ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl The information contained in this post is copyright the poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by http://www.diybanter.com |
#47
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"Andy Hall" wrote in message ... snip However, in practice, legionella does not seem to have been a problem with condensing boilers Yet.... |
#48
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On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:05:29 +0100, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote: "Andy Hall" wrote in message .. . snip However, in practice, legionella does not seem to have been a problem with condensing boilers Yet.... I think that considering that condensing boilers have been in widespread use in much of the rest of Europe for 20 years, if this was going to be a problem it would have become apparent long before now. -- ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl The information contained in this post is copyright the poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by http://www.diybanter.com |
#49
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"Andy Hall" wrote in message ... On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:05:29 +0100, ":::Jerry::::" wrote: "Andy Hall" wrote in message .. . snip However, in practice, legionella does not seem to have been a problem with condensing boilers Yet.... I think that considering that condensing boilers have been in widespread use in much of the rest of Europe for 20 years, if this was going to be a problem it would have become apparent long before now. It won't be either, as the water vapour from the flue is created a second or so before being emitted. |
#50
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In article ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote: However, in practice, legionella does not seem to have been a problem with condensing boilers Yet... Thought it had to be the 'fumes' from stagnant water kept at a highish temp and breathed in a confined space? Like from water cooled air con? -- *In "Casablanca", Humphrey Bogart never said "Play it again, Sam" * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#51
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Thought it had to be the 'fumes' from stagnant water kept at a highish
temp and breathed in a confined space? Like from water cooled air con? Nah, it often comes through the DHW supply and out of the tap or shower. However, air conditioning condensors are often in the 20C-45C critical range as well, so air conditioning is a major player, too, particularly in the larger outbreaks. Christian. |
#52
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article ws.net, :::Jerry:::: wrote: However, in practice, legionella does not seem to have been a problem with condensing boilers Yet... Thought it had to be the 'fumes' from stagnant water kept at a highish temp Nope. Above 60C and it is killed off. and breathed in a confined space? Nope. Spay from open vented cooling towers can disperse the contaminated water about the place. Like from water cooled air con? Not quite. Open vented a/c cooling towers. They are now all sealed. 1/10 Must try harder. |
#53
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In article ws.net,
Doctor Evil wrote: However, in practice, legionella does not seem to have been a problem with condensing boilers Yet... Thought it had to be the 'fumes' from stagnant water kept at a highish temp Nope. Above 60C and it is killed off. Yes, pet. Which is why domestic hot water is supposed to be stored above this. Don't you know anything? and breathed in a confined space? Nope. Spay from open vented cooling towers can disperse the contaminated water about the place. In the open air? Like from water cooled air con? Not quite. Open vented a/c cooling towers. They are now all sealed. They should certainly be. 1/10 Must try harder. No star for you either. -- *To be intoxicated is to feel sophisticated, but not be able to say it. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#54
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article ws.net, Doctor Evil wrote: However, in practice, legionella does not seem to have been a problem with condensing boilers Yet... Thought it had to be the 'fumes' from stagnant water kept at a highish temp Nope. Above 60C and it is killed off. Yes, pet. ...the Plowman man he calls me pet ...of inverted gender he must be set ...he gives us info we don't need to know ...down our throats he rams it so ...instictively you will spy ...in newsgroups with DIY ...attempting wisdom this fool will try ...the info's so poor tis clearly true ...so how does this garbage affect you? ...well take no heed of babble and drool ...as this one is a confirmed fool ...he marches around in CAT boots of yellow ...this strange brain damaged sort of fellow ...misadvice he has lots to say ...so don't give this yellow booted half-wit the time of day |
#55
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On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:59:26 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ws.net, :::Jerry:::: wrote: However, in practice, legionella does not seem to have been a problem with condensing boilers Yet... Thought it had to be the 'fumes' from stagnant water kept at a highish temp and breathed in a confined space? Like from water cooled air con? My understanding is that you need a body of warm water standing around exposed to air. Condensing boilers have only a little amount of water in the trap, which is mildly acidic and anything which comes in from outside is going to get zapped in the burner. -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html |
#56
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In message , RedOnRed
writes What I wonder about condensing boilers is whether the low temprerature plume can spread legionella. ? -- B Thumbs Change lycos to yahoo to reply Since when has steam been considered low temperature? Since when have condensing boilers give out plumes of steam ? -- geoff |
#57
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In article .uk,
Ed Sirett wrote: Thought it had to be the 'fumes' from stagnant water kept at a highish temp and breathed in a confined space? Like from water cooled air con? My understanding is that you need a body of warm water standing around exposed to air. Mine too. Condensing boilers have only a little amount of water in the trap, which is mildly acidic and anything which comes in from outside is going to get zapped in the burner. Plus presumably on a hot day with the boiler not in use it would soon evaporate away anyway? -- *If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends? * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#58
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On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:59:26 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote: In article ws.net, :::Jerry:::: wrote: However, in practice, legionella does not seem to have been a problem with condensing boilers Yet... Thought it had to be the 'fumes' from stagnant water kept at a highish temp and breathed in a confined space? Like from water cooled air con? Hi, IFIAK the water has to be 'aerosolised' into a spray at some point. cheers, Pete. |
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