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Martin Angove wrote:
In message , (Andrew Gabriel) wrote: I also got some private feedback from someone who used to be in the supply industry who said transformer size _is_ important to them -- they want them big and heavy, so they can't be stolen ;-) Didn't stop someone stealing a 75MVA (? might be a factor out there, it was a few years ago) transfromer from the ex-steelworks at Templeborough. When British Steel handed the building over to the group which turned it into the Magna Science Adventure Centre (I worked there for a while) they left the last arc furnace transformer parked in the lot while they found somewhere to put it. No-one knows what happened to it, and it must have involved a large crane and a low-loader, but when they came to claim it just before the centre opened it was no longer there. Magna ended up paying a lot of money to BS for having "lost" their transformer. bit hard to resell that one... NT |
"Jim Michaels" wrote in message ... On 07 Jul 2005 07:50:51 GMT, andrew@a17 (Andrew Gabriel) wrote: In article , Jim Michaels writes: On 04 Jul 2005 18:17:37 GMT, (Andrew Gabriel) wrote: In article .com, writes: Youre not understanding safety margin. Size of cable has nothing to do with it, once the cables big enough not to overload. Ours are big enough and much more. Yours are even bigger, but for what? Its just poor engineering. Because voltage drop is a serious issue for 120V supplies. It's not for 240V supplies. No, Our supplies are also 240V Nope -- you require regulation mostly at the 120V level. This is getting tedious. We have a 240Volt supply to our homes! It is the Edison 3 wire balanced system, where there are two power conductors 180 degrees out of phase (240V between legs and 120V from each leg to neutral/earth) and a neutral conductor at nominally earth potential. Therefore for a home which normally has a reasonably balanced load (see diversity) the voltage drop from the CU back to the generating plant will be the same as a British/euro 240V single phase delivery system. As far as small branch circuits go, many are multi wire circuits with two hot legs and a neutral that only carries the imbalance between the loads. (see diversity) When balanced the voltage drop is EXACTLY the same as your 240V to earth supply. ALL large loads operate at 240V and therefore have a voltage drop and current the same as any other 240V system. Voltage drop is NOT a significant issue in US residential wiring. You seem to want there to be problems where none exist, and to magnify small problems into disasters. Remove SPAMX from email address Lots of disasters in the early days. Very interesting article at: http://www.swehs.co.uk/docs/news25su.html All about Sebastian de Ferranti's early championing of HV AC distribution. Descriptions of the Ferranti / Siemans zig/zag 10,000v alternator. In the mid 1970's there was an example of this machine in the foyer to Ferranti's 'Wireworks Factory' at Moston in Manchester where I spent several months commissioning computers. AWEM |
On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 15:11:25 -0500, Jim Michaels
wrote: Voltage drop is NOT a significant issue in US residential wiring. Really??? Then perhaps you can explain why a colleague can't use a hairdryer properly when plugged into a socket in his dressing room because the nominal 120v at the incoming supply has dropped to about 90v at the socket. -- ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl The information contained in this post is copyright the poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by http://www.diybanter.com |
In article ,
Jim Michaels wrote: Besides an electric kettle what else would draw more than 1.6kW in a normal household? Any number of kitchen devices. Toaster, grill, fryer, bread maker, clothes iron. Some power tools. Portable heater. All of which you may want to use in more than one position and need to be unplugged for cleaning - or simply to be put away. It makes no sense to me to have two different power circuits in a house. -- *Caution: I drive like you do. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
In article ,
Jim Michaels wrote: http://houses.dsu.org.uk/info?i=6 Indicates 2500 killed & injured per year in UK It's a pressure group. And probably manipulating the figures - as they do. http://www.expertlaw.com/library/fires/home_fires.html Indicates 1610 killed & injured per year in US These numbers seem to include all ALL electrical fires It says 110 fires *per day* That makes 40150. Perhaps your different legal and health care system prevents minor injuries being reported? -- *Starfishes have no brains * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
In article ,
"Dave Plowman (News)" writes: In article , Jim Michaels wrote: If anyone here wanted one they could install an outlet and buy a British kettle. I didn't think your regs allow 240V outlets for portable appliances? Besides an electric kettle what else would draw more than 1.6kW in a normal household? Any number of kitchen devices. Toaster, grill, fryer, bread maker, clothes iron. Some power tools. Portable heater. All of which you may want to use in more than one position and need to be unplugged for cleaning - or simply to be put away. It makes no sense to me to have two different power circuits in a house. This question always amuses me -- it never comes from an American who is familiar with appliances in use around the rest of the world though. Of course you don't have portable appliances over 1.6kW, as no one can take them home and plug them in. That means there are ranges of products in use around the rest of the world which simply aren't shipped to the US. Many microwaves here are over 2kW. Out of curiosity I went looking for my microwave model when I was in the US to see how the price compared, but couldn't find it -- only the bottom of the range ones were there. Then I suddenly realised why. Another example is vacuum cleaners. On the face of it, you do have identical models, but they are all lower power. This I couldn't initially understand as ours are typically 1.5kW which can just be squeezed out of a US outlet, so I asked someone in that industry. The problem there is cable verses voltage drop -- a cable of the length required on a vacuum cleaner would be too thick to handle easily or coil up for storage, so they typically limit their US models to something nearer 10A so they can use a managable mains cord without excessive voltage drop or over-heating if still partially coiled up. I guess you don't miss what you haven't had, but don't fall into the trap of thinking the rest of the world is also limited to 1.6kW portable appliances -- that's certainly not the case. -- Andrew Gabriel |
In message ,
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: In article , Jim Michaels wrote: http://houses.dsu.org.uk/info?i=6 Indicates 2500 killed & injured per year in UK It's a pressure group. And probably manipulating the figures - as they do. http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou...029959-02.hcsp "...on average there are at least 24 deaths and 587 reported non-fatal injuries per year due to electrical fires reported in dwellings in England & Wales. Between 25% and 30% of the casualties are directly associated with the fixed installation." In other words, 70% to 75% of electrical injures are due to appliances, which relates to a mere 7 deaths and 176 non-fatal injuries attributable to the fixed installation. And I've seen posts here disputing even those figures. Hwyl! M. -- Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/ Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology .... If we left the bones out it wouldn't be crunchy. |
Jim Michaels wrote: Some where in this thread! UK Ten 100watt lamps at 240V equal 4.166 amps on circuit rated at 6 amps with 1mm wire. US Five 100 watt lamps at 120V equals 4.166 amps on 15amp rated circuit with 14gauge (2.08mm) wire. In this example the US system has a massively greater safety margin. This is comparing apples with plums! Try 10 x 100w @240V and 10 x 100w @120V Currents are 4.2A and 8.4A. I2R Losses are in the ratio 17.6:35 , allowing for the greater cable areas at 120V. The US has to have thicker cables to attempt to compensate for the higher currents, but from this example the temperature rise in the US cables for the same load will be more than double as the tc of copper is positive! Particularly true in the South with their much higher daily temperatures. I believe that UL cables are using higher temperature resistant coverings than the UK, perhaps someone knows this? Incidentally, my pocket reference for US wiring specifies 12g 3.3mm2 as being the minimum required size for US homes today(NEC code) and the maximum voltage drop as being 2%. For the example above a likely wire gauge would be 9g! 6.6mm2! With only radial wiring, the cost penalty is phenomenal! Just a few comments. Regards Capitol |
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 22:35:44 +0100,it is alleged that Capitol
spake thusly in uk.d-i-y: [snip] I believe that UL cables are using higher temperature resistant coverings than the UK, perhaps someone knows this? Usually 90 degrees C (yes, it's specified in celsius). But derating and so forth means you have some tables in the NEC that require you to use 60 or 75 C temperature ratings. Older cable was I think 60 degrees C. Incidentally, my pocket reference for US wiring specifies 12g 3.3mm2 as being the minimum required size for US homes today(NEC code) That depends if the code is adopted in your particular area, most areas don't enforce the entire code AIUI. Areas can also specify requirements over and above the NEC, such as Chicago requiring EVERYTHING in conduit, everywhere. and the maximum voltage drop as being 2%. For the example above a likely wire gauge would be 9g! 6.6mm2! With only radial wiring, the cost penalty is phenomenal! You can't generally get odd numbered wire guages and even 10 gauge will *not* connect to light switches. Having 10x100w lamps on one circuit would be unheard of in a home, remember the circuits are shared power/lighting, with generally an average of 1-2 rooms/circuit for low loads, and living areas 1 circuit per room minimum. I agree, the US electrical system uses a _lot_ more copper than the UK one, however, cable is cheap, and recyclable. Rewiring a US house is almost exactly comparable with a UK one in cost, I rewired a 2 bedroom house for my ex in Ohio, (no permits required provided we didn't replace the main panel, according to the city inspector). It cost about $400 in cable, (I used all 12G) another $150 or so in switches/outlets, $200 in light fixtures (fans raised the cost there), and another hundred for odd sundries, cable clips, wirenuts and a couple of boxes. (we didn't replace the old electrical boxes in most cases as they were reusable) That's about GBP 600 all told, not bad for a total rewire. We spent a weekend stripping down the old cable and taking it to the scrap dealer for cigarette money g. -- In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were REAL men, women were REAL women, and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were REAL small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. - The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy |
In article ,
Jim Michaels wrote: I didn't think your regs allow 240V outlets for portable appliances? Sure, In residential use the intended devise must draw over 1440W, in other situations there are no restrictions. We can even put them in bathrooms! But then will require two sizes of sockets? We used to have that 50 years ago. ;-) Now the only required is a different one for things like table lights plugged into a lighting dimmer circuit where you'd want to avoid damaging the dimmer by plugging in a Hoover, etc. -- *Everyone has a photographic memory. Some just don't have film. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Two 1.5kW electric fires produce the same heat as one 3kW and are more
versatile. Well, I've got several 3kW ones (and a couple of 2kW) and they're more versatile than several 1.5kW ones. 3kW ones cost the same price as smaller ones. The main problem is with large kitchen appliances, which we can just plug in where convenient without having to have special points put in, or alternatively have to put up with inferior designs without built in heaters. Christian. |
"Jim Michaels" wrote in message
... Two 1.5kW electric fires produce the same heat as one 3kW and are more versatile. And cost twice as much.. Admittedly grilling and frying are not usually done on portable units in the US. but yours seem to max out at only 1900watts. US Portable power tools are up to 1,800watt. A large router is an example. My 3HP semi-portable contractors saw can be plugged in anywhere here - garage, shed, house. No need to run special 240V or 3 phase lines for it. What portable tools do you have that are more than this? Are you hiding the two man SDS Plus Plus Plus drills? lol - I want one!! It makes no sense to me to have two different power circuits in a house. This question always amuses me -- it never comes from an American who is familiar with appliances in use around the rest of the world though. Of course you don't have portable appliances over 1.6kW, as no one can take them home and plug them in. That means there are ranges of products in use around the rest of the world which simply aren't shipped to the US. Many microwaves here are over 2kW. Google does not seem to find any UK microwaves over 1,000 watt output. US full size units are also 1,000 watt output. Often we have combi microwaves with a 1200w microwave *and* a 1300w heating element for grilling/browning which get used simultaneously. 2500w. Try the LG MC766YS. Out of curiosity I went looking for my microwave model when I was in the US to see how the price compared, but couldn't find it -- only the bottom of the range ones were there. Then I suddenly realised why. You are shopping in the wrong stores. Another example is vacuum cleaners. On the face of it, you do have identical models, but they are all lower power. This I couldn't initially understand as ours are typically 1.5kW which can just be squeezed out of a US outlet, so I asked someone in that industry. We have 1400 and 1500 watt units available from the major manufacturers 1400w is a small one here. 2000w is easily available even in a small cylinder vacuum. I guess thats partly why built in vacuums are more popular over there than here. |
In message ,
Jim Michaels wrote: Google does not seem to find any UK microwaves over 1,000 watt output. US full size units are also 1,000 watt output. An interesting statement that. Of course you are aware that 1000W microwave output usually translates into about 2000W absorbed energy, in which case, presumably the "full size" US units you refer to have to be specially catered for rather than just plugged into a standard circuit? The very smallest microwave you can generally get in this country is 650W output which probably makes for 1300W energy consumption, which is interestingly close to the nominal 1500W capacity of a standard 120V US circuit. Hwyl! M. -- Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/ Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology .... Don't believe in astrology. We Scorpios aren't taken in by such things. |
On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:38:35 +0100,it is alleged that Martin Angove
spake thusly in uk.d-i-y: The very smallest microwave you can generally get in this country is 650W output which probably makes for 1300W energy consumption, which is interestingly close to the nominal 1500W capacity of a standard 120V US circuit. 1800 watts is the actual capacity, fwiw, most microwaves that I am aware of in the US (IE those I came across while there) were around 750-800w rated output, with a 950 in one particular location (lobby of the motel I worked in, it had a 20A plug though). Interestingly, in most newer houses, according to code, the kitchen *should* have separate 20A small appliance circuits for the dishwasher and microwave[1], being 2 of the highest loading appliances. (US dishwashers, unlike washing machines, are similar to their UK brethren, and use a heating element for the drying cycle and to heat the water). [1] I don't think the code requires 20A outlets though, a duplex 15A is allowed on a 20A circuit, most installers probably do this for cheapness. -- Life is like a hot bath. It feels good while you're in it, but the longer you stay in, the more wrinkled you get. - Robbert Oustin |
In article ,
Jim Michaels writes: Besides an electric kettle what else would draw more than 1.6kW in a normal household? Any number of kitchen devices. Toaster, grill, fryer, bread maker, clothes iron. Some power tools. Portable heater. All of which you may want to use in more than one position and need to be unplugged for cleaning - or simply to be put away. Google seems to indicate that your toasters and bread makers are the same wattage as ours. Your steam irons appear to range from the same to about 20% higher wattage. How does this effect their use?, do you iron asbestos clothes? Probably faster heatup and more steam production. Two 1.5kW electric fires produce the same heat as one 3kW and are more versatile. Electric heaters here (and I think all 230V countries) are either 2kW or 3kW. Usually they can be switched down to 1kW if that's all you want. Two 1.5kW electric fires would be a pain to store, and twice as expensive to purchase. Two 1.5kW electric fires would overload a room circuit in the US. Admittedly grilling and frying are not usually done on portable units in the US. but yours seem to max out at only 1900watts. I had an old Rowenta grill when I was a student which I think my parents now have, and that's 2kW. US Portable power tools are up to 1,800watt. A large router is an example. What portable tools do you have that are more than this? One that I was using a few days ago -- wall paper stripper at 2.4kW. Another is hot air guns, a friend's one I've borrowed is 2.4kW. Pressure washers are available over 2kW. Google does not seem to find any UK microwaves over 1,000 watt output. US full size units are also 1,000 watt output. Look at the input power, and look for combination ovens which have long since taken over from microwaves here. Mine, which is a bog standard Sharp one, is 2.65kW. -- Andrew Gabriel |
Jim Michaels wrote:
On 12 Jul 2005 09:04:23 GMT, (Andrew Gabriel) wrote: Google seems to indicate that your toasters and bread makers are the same wattage as ours. Most I've have has been 3kW, 240v 13A. One ancient one was 240v 15A, from the round pin days. Your steam irons appear to range from the same to about 20% higher wattage. How does this effect their use?, do you iron asbestos clothes? heatup time. 3kW electric kettles are common here. Two 1.5kW electric fires produce the same heat as one 3kW and are more versatile. no Admittedly grilling and frying are not usually done on portable units in the US. but yours seem to max out at only 1900watts. US Portable power tools are up to 1,800watt. A large router is an example. What portable tools do you have that are more than this? There are some, especially older ex-commercial equipment, but as you say the majority are under 2kW Are you hiding the two man SDS Plus Plus Plus drills? Lol! Even a 29kg road breaker is only 1.9kW. Welders are liable to be 13A or more. Screwfix chopsaw 32129 is 2.4kW, 63319 is 2.2kW. 130A welders eg 63152, 17764, 12219 run on a 13A plug. Google does not seem to find any UK microwaves over 1,000 watt output. US full size units are also 1,000 watt output. input power is what counts. Output is only around 50% of input, if rated honestly. Theyre no longer rated honestly of course, since the late 90s high optimism IEE ratings took over. Another example is vacuum cleaners. On the face of it, you do have identical models, but they are all lower power. IIUC american portable power appliances are rated very differently, often being rated on surge or startup power to give most optimistic figures. Makes it very hard to compare. We have 1400 and 1500 watt units available from the major manufacturers hard to know what those ratings really mean in US. NT |
In message ,
Jim Michaels wrote: Google does not seem to find any UK microwaves over 1,000 watt output. US full size units are also 1,000 watt output. Our nukes range from 450w to 1kW output, with inputs of 900w to 2kW for vanilla nukes. Combi ovens are higher power, since almost all run the magnetron and 1kW element together, typically around 2.6 kW. Note the newer power rating system confuses things somewhat, and obviously the lower power ovens dont have their output power marked on them. A quick scan of screwfix reveals several 2-3kW tools, eg welders, wall chasers, compressors, 14A nailer guns, heat guns, steamers / wallpaper strippers, angle grinders, routers, universal woodworking machine, and many more in the 1.5-1.8 kW range as well. Portable ovens are mostly 3kW, except for the junk ones. NT |
On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:38:35 +0100, Martin Angove
wrote: In message , Jim Michaels wrote: Google does not seem to find any UK microwaves over 1,000 watt output. US full size units are also 1,000 watt output. An interesting statement that. Of course you are aware that 1000W microwave output usually translates into about 2000W absorbed energy, in which case, presumably the "full size" US units you refer to have to be specially catered for rather than just plugged into a standard circuit? Sounds a bit unlikely, a 1kW microwave at 50% efficiency would also generate the same heat as a 1kW fan heater! That would require a lot more ventilation than they appear to have. My combi oven is about 66% efficient, the Panasonic ones using an inverter are about 80% efficient: http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/vModelDetail?storeId=15001&catalogId=13401&itemId= 93565&cacheProgram=11002&cachePartner=700000000000 0005702&surfModel=NN-S505WF&catGroupId=25069&surfCategory=Standard%20Co unter%20Top&displayTab=O The very smallest microwave you can generally get in this country is 650W output which probably makes for 1300W energy consumption, which is interestingly close to the nominal 1500W capacity of a standard 120V US circuit. The above 1200W oven can run off a single 15A supply in the US, not bad for about 50 quid! cheers, Pete. |
In article ,
Pete C writes: On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:38:35 +0100, Martin Angove wrote: An interesting statement that. Of course you are aware that 1000W microwave output usually translates into about 2000W absorbed energy, in which case, presumably the "full size" US units you refer to have to be specially catered for rather than just plugged into a standard circuit? Sounds a bit unlikely, a 1kW microwave at 50% efficiency would also generate the same heat as a 1kW fan heater! That would require a lot more ventilation than they appear to have. Original magetrons were only 50% efficient. Over the last few years, I think this has improved, but there was also a change in the way microwave output power was measured, which makes them look better than they used to look, for no actual change. The waste heat comes from the magnetron, and in simple (non-combination) ovens, it was often blown through the oven compartment to help with the food heating. -- Andrew Gabriel |
In message ,
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote: In article , Pete C writes: On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:38:35 +0100, Martin Angove wrote: An interesting statement that. Of course you are aware that 1000W microwave output usually translates into about 2000W absorbed energy, in which case, presumably the "full size" US units you refer to have to be specially catered for rather than just plugged into a standard circuit? Sounds a bit unlikely, a 1kW microwave at 50% efficiency would also generate the same heat as a 1kW fan heater! That would require a lot more ventilation than they appear to have. Original magetrons were only 50% efficient. Over the last few years, I think this has improved, but there was also a change in the way microwave output power was measured, which makes them look better than they used to look, for no actual change. The waste heat comes from the magnetron, and in simple (non-combination) ovens, it was often blown through the oven compartment to help with the food heating. I've met quite a few nukes in my time, and I have to say that when you compare the ratings plate (which for legal reasons has to be pretty accurate about the absorbed power) with the declared power output, the ratio is usually quite close to 2:1. I'd love to meet one of these supposedly 80% efficient devices though. Do they have ratings plates in the US? Whether or not a 50% efficiency is going to be noticeable really depends on the type of use the oven gets. 60 seconds spent heating a cup of cocoa, even with 1kW dissipated as "waste" heat isn't going to be very obvious. Last time I had our (850W output) oven on for 5 minutes (doing a couple of bowls of supermarket-takeaway rice) it did get quite warm. There's definitely a fan in there somewhere... Hwyl! M. -- Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/ Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology .... If speed scares you, try Micro$oft Windows. |
On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 00:42:14 +0100, Martin Angove
wrote: I've met quite a few nukes in my time, and I have to say that when you compare the ratings plate (which for legal reasons has to be pretty accurate about the absorbed power) with the declared power output, the ratio is usually quite close to 2:1. Mine's 1450W in for 900W out, making it 1.6:1 I'd love to meet one of these supposedly 80% efficient devices though. Here it is, got snipped out : http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/vModelDetail?storeId=15001&catalogId=13401&itemId= 93565&cacheProgram=11002&cachePartner=700000000000 0005702&surfModel=NN-S505WF&catGroupId=25069&surfCategory=Standard%20Co unter%20Top&displayTab=S Whether or not a 50% efficiency is going to be noticeable really depends on the type of use the oven gets. 60 seconds spent heating a cup of cocoa, even with 1kW dissipated as "waste" heat isn't going to be very obvious. Last time I had our (850W output) oven on for 5 minutes (doing a couple of bowls of supermarket-takeaway rice) I tend to use mine for custard, which works really well. it did get quite warm. There's definitely a fan in there somewhere... Agreed, they must all have fans. cheers, Pete. Hwyl! M. |
Martin Angove wrote:
Do they have ratings plates in the US? I'm currently in the US - so I took a look inside the microwave oven. The plate reads - Input 120v 60hz 15 or 20 amp 3-wire only Output 650 watts 2450mhz 11 amp It's an old unit, the label says it was manufactured in January 1989. I don't remember the rating of the one we have in Scotland, but it cooks faster than this one. Sheila |
In article ,
S Viemeister wrote: Input 120v 60hz 15 or 20 amp 3-wire only Well, that doesn't tell you its power consumption - only that it's less than 1800 watts and it needs to be earthed. Output 650 watts 2450mhz 11 amp That seems even worse. 650 watts at 120 volts is 5.4 amps. -- *Am I ambivalent? Well, yes and no. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Pete C wrote:
No microwave is 80% efficient. The invertor might be, but the magnetron isnt, and the oven as a whole isnt. Apart from invertor types, all are 50% efficient, but the newer IEC rating system makes it appear that output powers and efficiency have gone up: they havent. Think of them as like PMPO power ratings. The only significant advatnage of the invertors is reduced weight. Chaos defrost is just more marketing nonsense, its no better than regularly cycled power. NT |
On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 07:55:20 -0400, S Viemeister
wrote: Martin Angove wrote: Do they have ratings plates in the US? I'm currently in the US - so I took a look inside the microwave oven. The plate reads - Input 120v 60hz 15 or 20 amp 3-wire only Output 650 watts 2450mhz 11 amp How odd. Eleven amps output? :-) -- Frank Erskine Sunderland |
In article ,
"Dave Plowman (News)" writes: In article , S Viemeister wrote: Input 120v 60hz 15 or 20 amp 3-wire only Well, that doesn't tell you its power consumption - only that it's less than 1800 watts and it needs to be earthed. Output 650 watts 2450mhz 11 amp That seems even worse. 650 watts at 120 volts is 5.4 amps. It's an old unit, the label says it was manufactured in January 1989. Yes, so efficiency of about 50%, which is typical then. Power factor of microwave ovens is not quite 1, but it's near enough that can probably be ignored at this level. I don't remember the rating of the one we have in Scotland, but it cooks faster than this one. Domestic UK ones are typically 600 to 1000W output, so your UK one could well be more powerful. -- Andrew Gabriel |
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article , S Viemeister wrote: Input 120v 60hz 15 or 20 amp 3-wire only Well, that doesn't tell you its power consumption - only that it's less than 1800 watts and it needs to be earthed. Unfortunately, that's the only information on the label. I would hope that newer units are better, and that their labels more useful. Sheila |
Frank Erskine wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 07:55:20 -0400, S Viemeister wrote: Martin Angove wrote: Do they have ratings plates in the US? I'm currently in the US - so I took a look inside the microwave oven. The plate reads - Input 120v 60hz 15 or 20 amp 3-wire only Output 650 watts 2450mhz 11 amp How odd. Eleven amps output? :-) That _is_ what it says........ Sheila |
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On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:25:51 -0500, Jim Michaels
wrote: On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 09:50:48 +0100, "Christian McArdle" wrote: Two 1.5kW electric fires produce the same heat as one 3kW and are more versatile. Well, I've got several 3kW ones (and a couple of 2kW) and they're more versatile than several 1.5kW ones. 3kW ones cost the same price as smaller ones. Versatile Two 1.5s next to each other is the same as a 3. One 1.5 in each of two rooms does what no 3 can do. As far as price we can get 1.5s for $10 to $15 which is so little as to be a non-issue. The main problem is with large kitchen appliances, which we can just plug in where convenient without having to have special points put in, or alternatively have to put up with inferior designs without built in heaters. US washing machines use hot water (often heated with gas). How is saving energy inferior? The huge volume of water used in top loading machines. -- ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
US washing machines use hot water (often heated with gas).
How is saving energy inferior? US machines use many, many times the quantity of water and detergent and are an environmental nightmare. European machines used to have heating elements and a separate hot fill to start it off. This is no longer done as the machines use so little water that there is no energy to be saved when you account for the lost hot water in the pipework every time it fills. Christian. |
Christian McArdle wrote: US machines use many, many times the quantity of water and detergent and are an environmental nightmare. European machines used to have heating elements and a separate hot fill to start it off. This is no longer done as the machines use so little water that there is no energy to be saved when you account for the lost hot water in the pipework every time it fills. And the result is washing machines which give you back clothes in more or less the same filthy state as when you put them in! So you have to wash them 2 or 3 times and the energy efficiency is unbelievably bad. I'm still regretting not rebuilding my old washing machine when it lost it's bearings, the local noise level is sometimes near deafening when she looks at the results of the new machine. Looks to me like the same effect as replacing an old working boiler with a modern piece of crap which will not last 5 years without failure! Totally false accounting. Just like buying a Prius! Regards Capitol |
On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:31:12 +0100, Capitol
wrote: Christian McArdle wrote: US machines use many, many times the quantity of water and detergent and are an environmental nightmare. European machines used to have heating elements and a separate hot fill to start it off. This is no longer done as the machines use so little water that there is no energy to be saved when you account for the lost hot water in the pipework every time it fills. And the result is washing machines which give you back clothes in more or less the same filthy state as when you put them in! So you have to wash them 2 or 3 times and the energy efficiency is unbelievably bad. I'm still regretting not rebuilding my old washing machine when it lost it's bearings, the local noise level is sometimes near deafening when she looks at the results of the new machine. Looks to me like the same effect as replacing an old working boiler with a modern piece of crap which will not last 5 years without failure! Totally false accounting. Just like buying a Prius! Hi, What make and model machine do you have, and what temperature do you use? Do you know what the wash efficiency rating is? cheers, Pete. |
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Jim Michaels wrote: The standard Kitchen circuit is 20amps at 120V for a 2,400watt capacity. There is a restriction of 80% for a single item unless it is a single outlet circuit and often these circuits have receptacles rated at only 15amps. The 15amp receptacle is also de rated to 80% if the device is expected to run over 3 hours (such as a fire). A microwave is permitted to use the full 1800watts that it's 15amp plug will provide. Remove SPAMX from email address So you have a 20 Amp fused (radial) circuit which... ....is only allowed to carry 16A for any single appliance where there is more than one outlet; ....could have two (or more?) 15A receptacles fitted - unfused; ....could therefore have receptacles fitted which are not rated to the capacity of the circuit or fused appropriately; ....could have receptacles fitted which although nominally rated at 15A are only allowed to supply 12A (1440W) continuously (why?, and what on earth is the difference between over three hours and under three hours? Over 30 minutes and under 30 minutes I might have understood) ....and how on earth is this policed? I'm afraid it sounds like a dreadful bodge to me. Compliance with that kind of code relies hugely on the householder "behaving themselves". Compare that with our system where every single power take-off point is either fully rated for the fused capacity of the circuit (e.g. blue 16A/32A BS4343 plugs) or is separately fused at a suitable rating (e.g. 13A BS1363 plugs, 13A fused outlets). The onus to "get it right" is on the installer with these. Once correctly installed it is difficult for the user to misuse the system dangerously. Penbleth 8-/ Hwyl! M. -- Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/ Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology .... Journeys begin with a single step, and a decision to take it. |
Pete C wrote: Hi, What make and model machine do you have, and what temperature do you use? Do you know what the wash efficiency rating is? The machine is a Whirlpool AA1200. Temperature makes virtually no difference, The problem is IMO with both the wash and the rinse cycles. The wash efficiency by use is not significantly above zero! It also has a novel variety of user unfriendly features which we have only found out by experience. (Seems like about 40 minutes to achieve a rinse and spin function on hand washed items!) Some we are still learning( the hard way)! Regards Capitol |
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Capitol writes: Pete C wrote: What make and model machine do you have, and what temperature do you use? Do you know what the wash efficiency rating is? The machine is a Whirlpool AA1200. Temperature makes virtually no difference, The problem is IMO with both the wash and the rinse cycles. The wash efficiency by use is not significantly above zero! It also has a novel variety of user unfriendly features which we have only found out by experience. (Seems like about 40 minutes to achieve a rinse and spin function on hand washed items!) Some we are still learning( the hard way)! Hum, make mental note to avoid Whirlpool's if this is really true. I have a Hotpoint and nearly all my washes are done at 35C. It always manages to clean everything without any repeat wash. What washing detergent do you use? I normally use Persil Bio. I've heard Ecover is complete crap. -- Andrew Gabriel |
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The machine is a Whirlpool AA1200. Temperature makes virtually no
difference, The problem is IMO with both the wash and the rinse cycles. Sounds like something is wrong. I find modern machines very effective. In recent years I've had a Hotpoint Ultima and a Smeg. Both were 'A' rated for washing performance and I can believe it. I used an American style top loader at university and it was complete cr*p. The clothes came out wet and dirty. The "rotating knife" in the middle chopped the clothes up. Christian. |
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