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mp
 
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Default power shower problems

Hi all

I'm about to install a power shower (I can imagine it's been covered umpteen
times) but despite doing a previous search about my problem I've seen no
answers/solutions.

The problem is that the cold water feed to the shower mixer comes direct
from the loft water tank (normal) DOWN through to the mixer, whereas the hot
water comes from the airing cupboard through the floorboards and UP to the
mixer.

So my problem is getting the pipes close enough for the pump to connect to.
I can't use a post-mixer pump due to wall cavity being so thin (barrats
house!).

Solution - I was thinking of feeding the cold water DOWN to the airing
cupboard and then feed it UP back in the loft to rejoin where cut into it.
The problem I see with this is extra work for the pump, ineffective pressure
(15mm pipes not 22mm) or the need for a negative feed switch (which then
raises the question about the hot water feed being positive).

In an ideal world I'd feed the cold water down to the airing cupboard and
then relay through the floorboards (same as the hot water feed), but the
floorboards are larges T&G and very tough to get access to.

Thanks for any thoughts.

MRJP


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BigWallop
 
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"mp" wrote in message
...
Hi all

I'm about to install a power shower (I can imagine it's been covered

umpteen
times) but despite doing a previous search about my problem I've seen no
answers/solutions.

The problem is that the cold water feed to the shower mixer comes direct
from the loft water tank (normal) DOWN through to the mixer, whereas the

hot
water comes from the airing cupboard through the floorboards and UP to the
mixer.

So my problem is getting the pipes close enough for the pump to connect

to.
I can't use a post-mixer pump due to wall cavity being so thin (barrats
house!).


You already have a cold water supply to your hot water tank, so why not tap
in to that?


  #3   Report Post  
John Stumbles
 
Posts: n/a
Default

mp wrote:

Hi all

I'm about to install a power shower (I can imagine it's been covered
umpteen times) but despite doing a previous search about my problem I've
seen no answers/solutions.

The problem is that the cold water feed to the shower mixer comes direct
from the loft water tank (normal) DOWN through to the mixer, whereas the
hot water comes from the airing cupboard through the floorboards and UP to
the mixer.

So my problem is getting the pipes close enough for the pump to connect
to. I can't use a post-mixer pump due to wall cavity being so thin
(barrats house!).

Solution - I was thinking of feeding the cold water DOWN to the airing
cupboard and then feed it UP back in the loft to rejoin where cut into it.
The problem I see with this is extra work for the pump, ineffective
pressure (15mm pipes not 22mm) or the need for a negative feed switch
(which then raises the question about the hot water feed being positive).


The problem will be that you have a high point in the pipework in which air
will accumulate. You'll need to fit an air vent at this point. You may be
OK with an automatic air vent. The 15mm pipework shouldn't be a problem and
you won't need a negative head kit or switch.

In an ideal world I'd feed the cold water down to the airing cupboard and
then relay through the floorboards (same as the hot water feed), but the
floorboards are larges T&G and very tough to get access to.


Can you really not run plastic pipe from the airing cupboard up to the
mixer?

  #4   Report Post  
Doctor Evil
 
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Default


"BigWallop" wrote in message
. uk...

"mp" wrote in message
...
Hi all

I'm about to install a power shower (I can imagine it's been covered

umpteen
times) but despite doing a previous search about my problem I've seen no
answers/solutions.

The problem is that the cold water feed to the shower mixer comes direct
from the loft water tank (normal) DOWN through to the mixer, whereas the

hot
water comes from the airing cupboard through the floorboards and UP to

the
mixer.

So my problem is getting the pipes close enough for the pump to connect

to.
I can't use a post-mixer pump due to wall cavity being so thin (barrats
house!).


You already have a cold water supply to your hot water tank, so why not

tap
in to that?


You really haven't a clue. Please do not give advise on fields you know
nothing about. The cold for the shower comes from the cold tank.

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  #5   Report Post  
MP
 
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Hi Bigwallop

Is the cold water feed into the hot water tank a dedicated feed? (so I won't
get scolded if someone turns on a cold water tap elsewhere in the house).


"BigWallop" wrote in message
. uk...

"mp" wrote in message
...
Hi all

I'm about to install a power shower (I can imagine it's been covered

umpteen
times) but despite doing a previous search about my problem I've seen no
answers/solutions.

The problem is that the cold water feed to the shower mixer comes direct
from the loft water tank (normal) DOWN through to the mixer, whereas the

hot
water comes from the airing cupboard through the floorboards and UP to
the
mixer.

So my problem is getting the pipes close enough for the pump to connect

to.
I can't use a post-mixer pump due to wall cavity being so thin (barrats
house!).


You already have a cold water supply to your hot water tank, so why not
tap
in to that?






  #6   Report Post  
MP
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi John

Bigwallop suggested using the cold water feed for the hot water tank, which
seems like cracking idea.

I'm getting used to the idea that I'll have to access the floorboards and
use pipe (plastic i presume is okay for the pressure passing through it)
work to join up at the mixer.

PS - Is it possible to get longer attachments to the pump to replace tha
come with the pump, they seem rather short.

Thanx

MP
"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...
mp wrote:

Hi all

I'm about to install a power shower (I can imagine it's been covered
umpteen times) but despite doing a previous search about my problem I've
seen no answers/solutions.

The problem is that the cold water feed to the shower mixer comes direct
from the loft water tank (normal) DOWN through to the mixer, whereas the
hot water comes from the airing cupboard through the floorboards and UP
to
the mixer.

So my problem is getting the pipes close enough for the pump to connect
to. I can't use a post-mixer pump due to wall cavity being so thin
(barrats house!).

Solution - I was thinking of feeding the cold water DOWN to the airing
cupboard and then feed it UP back in the loft to rejoin where cut into
it.
The problem I see with this is extra work for the pump, ineffective
pressure (15mm pipes not 22mm) or the need for a negative feed switch
(which then raises the question about the hot water feed being positive).


The problem will be that you have a high point in the pipework in which
air
will accumulate. You'll need to fit an air vent at this point. You may be
OK with an automatic air vent. The 15mm pipework shouldn't be a problem
and
you won't need a negative head kit or switch.

In an ideal world I'd feed the cold water down to the airing cupboard and
then relay through the floorboards (same as the hot water feed), but the
floorboards are larges T&G and very tough to get access to.


Can you really not run plastic pipe from the airing cupboard up to the
mixer?



  #7   Report Post  
Set Square
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Doctor Evil wrote:


You already have a cold water supply to your hot water tank, so why
not tap in to that?


You really haven't a clue. Please do not give advise on fields you
know nothing about. The cold for the shower comes from the cold tank.

Whereas the cold feed to the hot tank comes from . . .yes, you've guessed it
.. . .the cold tank!

Having said that, the shower really does need a dedicated feed from the cold
tank - and not one shared with the feed to the hot tank. It also needs to be
taken from a *lower* point than the cold take-off to the hot tank so that,
in the event of the cold tank emptying, the hot stops running first.
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.


  #8   Report Post  
BigWallop
 
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Default


"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Doctor Evil wrote:


You already have a cold water supply to your hot water tank, so why
not tap in to that?


You really haven't a clue. Please do not give advise on fields you
know nothing about. The cold for the shower comes from the cold tank.

Whereas the cold feed to the hot tank comes from . . .yes, you've guessed

it
. . .the cold tank!

Having said that, the shower really does need a dedicated feed from the

cold
tank - and not one shared with the feed to the hot tank. It also needs to

be
taken from a *lower* point than the cold take-off to the hot tank so that,
in the event of the cold tank emptying, the hot stops running first.


Set Square


So a new and dedicated pipe from the cold tank would continue to supply cold
water, even with the cold tank empty? Oh right. Both hot water cylinder
and cold water tap supplies are from the same cold water storage tank. The
pressures to all the taps and appliances will all be equal, barring stupid
forms of pipework of course. So I don't see any need to complicate the
supply to one single new appliance that is being added to an already stable
system.

Where do you people live? :-)


  #9   Report Post  
BigWallop
 
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Default


"MP" wrote in message
...
Hi Bigwallop

Is the cold water feed into the hot water tank a dedicated feed? (so I

won't
get scolded if someone turns on a cold water tap elsewhere in the house).

snipped

The hot water tank is being fed from one single line of pipework. This
single line of pipework is cold. It's only when the water sits in the hot
water tank that you begin to heat it. Does you cold water storage tank get
hot? I should hope not.

The supply pipe to the hot water cylinder is large enough, if made 22 mm
dia' pipe, to supply both the cold feed to the pump and still have plenty
water left over to keep the hot water tank replenished and supply a hot feed
to the pump as well.

Two things. Is the cold supply to the hot water cylinder quite a straight
run down? And does the hot water run out of the bath taps at a much lower
rate than cold? I'm not talking pressure wise here, I mean at a very much
slower rate (quantity per) than the cold.

These can be checked by timing the filling of a large pot or bucket. From
empty, turn on the cold tap and fill it up. From empty again, turn on the
hot tap and fill it up. Deduct the times from each. If there is a huge
difference, and I can't there being, then you'll need to supply a pump from
two totally separate hot and cold supplies. If there is only a couple of
seconds difference, then you're OK to tap in to the cold and hot pipework
right beside the hot tank.

I was going to go all technical, but this explanation should be OK to
understand.

Don't over engineer it, you'll only **** it up. :-)


  #10   Report Post  
Set Square
 
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In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
BigWallop wrote:


So a new and dedicated pipe from the cold tank would continue to
supply cold water, even with the cold tank empty? Oh right.


You're not listening!

With a power shower going full tilt, you will potentially be removing water
from the cold tank faster than the mains supply can replenish it. So the
level will drop. When the level drops below a take-off point, that take-off
point obviously won't supply any more water.

The take-off point for the cold feed to the hot cylinder - which in turn
pushes hot water out of the cylinder to the shower pump - needs to be
*higher* up the cold tank than the take-off point for the cold feed to the
shower pump. Then, when the level drops, it will cause the hot feed to the
shower to stop first, with the cold feed still running. If it were the other
way round, you could have scaldingly hot water coming out of the shower.

I hope that makes it clear!
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.




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Doctor Evil
 
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"MP" wrote in message
...
Hi John

Bigwallop suggested using the cold water feed for the hot water tank,

which
seems like cracking idea.


This is a stupid idea. The cold "must" have an independent cold supply from
the cold water storage tank.

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  #12   Report Post  
Doctor Evil
 
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Default


"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Doctor Evil wrote:


You already have a cold water supply to your hot water tank, so why
not tap in to that?

You really haven't a clue. Please do not give advise on fields you
know nothing about. The cold for the shower comes from the cold tank.

Whereas the cold feed to the hot tank comes from . . .yes, you've

guessed
it
. . .the cold tank!

Having said that, the shower really does need a dedicated feed from the

cold
tank - and not one shared with the feed to the hot tank. It also needs

to
be
taken from a *lower* point than the cold take-off to the hot tank so

that,
in the event of the cold tank emptying, the hot stops running first.


Set Square


So a new and dedicated pipe from the cold tank would continue to supply

cold
water, even with the cold tank empty? Oh right. Both hot water cylinder
and cold water tap supplies are from the same cold water storage tank.

The
pressures to all the taps and appliances will all be equal, barring stupid
forms of pipework of course. So I don't see any need to complicate the
supply to one single new appliance that is being added to an already

stable
system.

Where do you people live? :-)


You really have not got a clue. Please shut up. people are requesting
advice. You have none to give.

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BigWallop
 
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"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
BigWallop wrote:


So a new and dedicated pipe from the cold tank would continue to
supply cold water, even with the cold tank empty? Oh right.


You're not listening!

With a power shower going full tilt, you will potentially be removing

water
from the cold tank faster than the mains supply can replenish it. So the
level will drop. When the level drops below a take-off point, that

take-off
point obviously won't supply any more water.

The take-off point for the cold feed to the hot cylinder - which in turn
pushes hot water out of the cylinder to the shower pump - needs to be
*higher* up the cold tank than the take-off point for the cold feed to the
shower pump. Then, when the level drops, it will cause the hot feed to the
shower to stop first, with the cold feed still running. If it were the

other
way round, you could have scaldingly hot water coming out of the shower.

I hope that makes it clear!

Cheers,
Set Square


So you're saying it would be better if the cold supply was direct from the
mains? Or is your own contradiction a part of not understanding the
workings of creating a head of water to a shower head?

You say that the cold water storage tank may empty if the shower used:

" With a power shower going full tilt, you will potentially be removing
water
from the cold tank faster than the mains supply can replenish it."


Then you say to take yet another cold water supply from the cold water
storage tank:

"The take-off point for the cold feed to the hot cylinder - which in turn
pushes hot water out of the cylinder to the shower pump - needs to be
*higher* up the cold tank than the take-off point for the cold feed to the
shower pump."


Or am I missing your point here?

There are already two outlets taken from the cold water storage tank. One
supplies the hot water, and the other supplies the cold. Both outlets will
be near the bottom, if not actually through the bottom, of the cold water
storage tank. Therefore both outlets will be supplying their respective
appliances with an equal amount of head (pressure).

A pump for a system that is going to be sited slightly higher than a normal
appliance, in this case the shower, only needs to supply a slight increase
in the pressure of the supplied water to create the correct head (pressure)
to make the whole thing work properly.

A shower pump isn't a massive taker of water, that's why they are only
supplied with narrow bore pipes. In fact, the shower will be using only
around a quarter the amount of water flow rate that running both huge 3/4''
taps on the bath will. Even if the pump were to be supplied with 28 mm bore
pipework on both the inlet and outlet sides, the pump would still only be
able to draw about a quarter the amount of water that the pipes can supply
to it.

I advise using the cold supply in and the hot supply out of the hot water
storage cylinder because, when the shower is in use the cold supply feeding
the rest of the house will be able to supply the taps without creating any
pressure difference to the shower supply. It also creates the situation of
having both cold and hot supplies at an equal pressure to both sides of the
pump, and so make things easier to balance at the mixer valve.


  #14   Report Post  
Set Square
 
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In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
BigWallop wrote:


So you're saying it would be better if the cold supply was direct
from the mains?


I said no such thing! The shower pump must have equal pressure on its hot
and cold feeds - so they must both be gravity feeds from the cold tank

Or is your own contradiction a part of not
understanding the workings of creating a head of water to a shower
head?

I understand the Physics of it all perfectly - but I'm not convinced that
you do.

You say that the cold water storage tank may empty if the shower used:

" With a power shower going full tilt, you will potentially be
removing water
from the cold tank faster than the mains supply can replenish it."


Then you say to take yet another cold water supply from the cold water
storage tank:

I'm saying that *all* of the water going to the shower is coming from the
cold tank - the cold going directly, and the hot going via the hot cylinder

"The take-off point for the cold feed to the hot cylinder - which in
turn
pushes hot water out of the cylinder to the shower pump - needs to be
*higher* up the cold tank than the take-off point for the cold feed
to the shower pump."


Or am I missing your point here?

YES!!


A shower pump isn't a massive taker of water, that's why they are only
supplied with narrow bore pipes.


A decent power shower will deliver 15 litres or more per minute. Many
domestic cold supplies can deliver little more than 10 litres per minute -
so with the shower going full tilt, the level in the tank will go *down*
even if no-one else in the house is using any water.

It's important that the shower doesn't run out of cold water before it runs
out of hot - hence the need to have to cold feed for the shower at a lower
level in the tank than the hot feed.

I cannot explain it any more clearly!

If you *still* can't understand go and ask all the Little Wallops and Middle
Wallops in your family - maybe they can explain it better!
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.


  #15   Report Post  
BillP
 
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"mp" wrote in message
...
Hi all

I'm about to install a power shower (I can imagine it's been covered

umpteen
times) but despite doing a previous search about my problem I've seen no
answers/solutions.

The problem is that the cold water feed to the shower mixer comes direct
from the loft water tank (normal) DOWN through to the mixer, whereas the

hot
water comes from the airing cupboard through the floorboards and UP to the
mixer.

So my problem is getting the pipes close enough for the pump to connect

to.
I can't use a post-mixer pump due to wall cavity being so thin (barrats
house!).

Solution - I was thinking of feeding the cold water DOWN to the airing
cupboard and then feed it UP back in the loft to rejoin where cut into it.
The problem I see with this is extra work for the pump, ineffective

pressure
(15mm pipes not 22mm) or the need for a negative feed switch (which then
raises the question about the hot water feed being positive).

In an ideal world I'd feed the cold water down to the airing cupboard and
then relay through the floorboards (same as the hot water feed), but the
floorboards are larges T&G and very tough to get access to.

Thanks for any thoughts.

MRJP



HI There,

The simplest method for your existing installation would be to do as you
suggest.
Put the pump in the airing cupboard. Route the existing shower cold feed
from the tank down to the airing cupboard in 22m. Take the pumped hot outlet
to the existing shower hot feed, and take the pumped cold up into the loft
to the original cold feed.

Although the up and over run on the cold feed is not ideal, I woulnd't
expect this to cause problems with air locks as it's on the pumped output
side of the run.

You could do as Big Wallop suggests and take the cold feed from the input
feed to the hot water tank. Some manufacturers give this method as an
option. Yes the ideal method is a dedicated feed from the cold water tank
and Surrey/Essex flanges from the hot water cylinder but you won't get shot
if you don't do it that way.

I have scanned a section of a manual for a power shower showing three
options for connection www.geocities/wjp_gof/shower.doc

Method 2 shows a cold feed taken from the supply to the hot water tank. You
may experience variations in shower temp when other outlets are being used.

The reality of this depends on your cold water installation. If all the
other cold water appliances in the house are on high pressure mains, then
you won't have a problem.
I ran a power shower for years plumbed in this way and it worked fine.

Regards Bill

ps Method 3 illustrates the dialogue between Big Wallop and Set Square.




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BillP
 
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sorry should be this

http://www.geocities.com/wjp_gof/shower.doc


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