Wiring question?
 

I'm a little stuck! I have a light in my kitchen which works fine. I want
to add another light at the other end. To achieve this, I have been able to
run cable from that other end back to the switch box for the original light.
I cannot draw live feed from the ring as it is not accessible without
destroying stuff!

I have tried connecting the cable from the new light directly into the back
of the old one. However, this bridges the switch completely and creates a
valid live circuit for the new light when the switch is off (curiously when
the switch is on, that light goes out and the original light comes on - I
thought the new light would always stay on?).

Anyway, saw the mistake there and tried adding a 2nd switch (both are 1 way
switches). Ran a mini-cable common to common and L1 to L1. Still a similar
effect to the first time, but with both switches.

How can I make this work so that either one switch makes them both come on
together or two switches control them independently. The only live feed I
can take is from the switch spur on the original light. Is this one botch
too far?




a

al wrote:
I'm a little stuck! I have a light in my kitchen which works fine. I want
to add another light at the other end. To achieve this, I have been able to
run cable from that other end back to the switch box for the original light.
I cannot draw live feed from the ring as it is not accessible without
destroying stuff!

From where are you getting your neutral for the new light? And lighting
circuits aren't rings, they're radials.

I have tried connecting the cable from the new light directly into the back
of the old one. However, this bridges the switch completely and creates a
valid live circuit for the new light when the switch is off (curiously when
the switch is on, that light goes out and the original light comes on - I
thought the new light would always stay on?).

No, you are shorting the new light when the switch is on.

Anyway, saw the mistake there and tried adding a 2nd switch (both are 1 way
switches). Ran a mini-cable common to common and L1 to L1. Still a similar
effect to the first time, but with both switches.
How can I make this work so that either one switch makes them both come on
together or two switches control them independently. The only live feed I
can take is from the switch spur on the original light. Is this one botch
too far?

Your problem is not the live, it's the neutral. There is not normally a
neutral at the switch, so you must take neutral (and switched live,
because they *must* run in the same cable) from the ceiling rose of the
original light.

Get yourself a good DIY electrics book with clear diagrams, as Usenet is
a little limited in the visual illustration regard, and bear in mind (if
you are in England and Wales) that electrical work in kitchens is
covered by Part P of the Building Regulations, which means you must
either get an electrician in or DIY and apply to the Council.

Owain

al wrote:
I'm a little stuck! I have a light in my kitchen which works fine. I want
to add another light at the other end. To achieve this, I have been able to
run cable from that other end back to the switch box for the original light.
I cannot draw live feed from the ring as it is not accessible without
destroying stuff!

If all you want to do is have a second light which comes on exactly when
the first one does, you don't want to run a cable to the switch at all
at all. The cable for the new light wants to run to the ceiling rose of
the old light. There, you connect the earth to the earthing terminal
where all the existing earths go; the black to the existing
black-wire(s) and blue-light-flex terminal; and the red to the existing
brown-light-flex and single maybe-red
maybe-black-which-should-have-a-bit-of-red-sleeving-but-won't terminal.

And do get a decent book - the Collin's D-I-Y manual's pretty sound - to
get your head round the basics of house electrics. If you start feeling
unsure, get an electrician in - it's really not a good idea to stuff
about when you're as unsure which way is up as you seem to be...

Stefek

"Owain" wrote in message
...
Your problem is not the live, it's the neutral. There is not normally a
neutral at the switch, so you must take neutral (and switched live,
because they *must* run in the same cable) from the ceiling rose of the
original light.


My problem is accessibility. If I could get to the junction box (wherever
in the ceiling that may be - there is no rose for the original light - just
two wires coming out of the ceiling), then I could wire it up fine and
understand it fine.

I guess my lack of understanding here is with the status of the neutral, or
return live. If I understand correctly, this cable is merely a looped
continuation of the live feed to the original light's live terminal,
allowing for a break in the circuit - the actual neutral in question being
directly connected to the light. Does that sound about right? And if that
is the case, I am buggered I presume unless I want to start drilling holes?

One other vague possibility. Beside the switch for the original light,
there was a blanking plate. When I took it away, there were 3 twin & earth
cables coming in that all appear to be dead (presumably have been chopped
somewhere along the line). If one of the neutrals were by some chance still
connected back to a "real" neutral, would that be safe to use along with the
live from the switch?

Other alternatives ... bring power from the socket ring-main up to the
ceiling for that light? Not ideal, but safe if it's a fused connection??



a



a

"Stefek Zaba" wrote in message
...
And do get a decent book - the Collin's D-I-Y manual's pretty sound - to
get your head round the basics of house electrics. If you start feeling
unsure, get an electrician in - it's really not a good idea to stuff about
when you're as unsure which way is up as you seem to be...


Funnily enough I have just that book and understand perfectly how to do it
under normal circumstances. What I'm trying to do here is cheat so as to
not damage walls/ceilings ... :o(




a

al wrote:

I have tried connecting the cable from the new light directly into
the back
of the old one. However, this bridges the switch completely and
creates a
valid live circuit for the new light when the switch is off
(curiously when
the switch is on, that light goes out and the original light comes on
- I
thought the new light would always stay on?).

you just made a mistake in which wires you conencted to, thats all.
Conncet to the same onse that go to the bulb and all wil be well.

NT

al wrote:

in the ceiling that may be - there is no rose for the original light
- just
two wires coming out of the ceiling),

Sounds typical of an ancient install. How old is it?

If you have no earth feed on the lights, your new lighting will not
meet modern safety regs. You can make that aspect ok by using only
plastic or double insulated fittings and plastic screws in any added
plastic switch faceplate, but it would never pass a safety inspection
as it will not meet current gregs.


NT

"al" wrote in message
k...
I'm a little stuck! I have a light in my kitchen which works fine. I
want
to add another light at the other end. To achieve this, I have been able
to
run cable from that other end back to the switch box for the original
light.
I cannot draw live feed from the ring as it is not accessible without
destroying stuff!

I have tried connecting the cable from the new light directly into the
back
of the old one. However, this bridges the switch completely and creates a
valid live circuit for the new light when the switch is off (curiously
when
the switch is on, that light goes out and the original light comes on - I
thought the new light would always stay on?).

Anyway, saw the mistake there and tried adding a 2nd switch (both are 1
way
switches). Ran a mini-cable common to common and L1 to L1. Still a
similar
effect to the first time, but with both switches.

How can I make this work so that either one switch makes them both come on
together or two switches control them independently. The only live feed I
can take is from the switch spur on the original light. Is this one botch
too far?

a


Try reading through this:
http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/lightcircuit.htm to see where you're
going wrong.

al wrote:

My problem is accessibility. If I could get to the junction box (wherever
in the ceiling that may be - there is no rose for the original light - just
two wires coming out of the ceiling), then I could wire it up fine and
understand it fine.

If you opened up that hole a couple of inches, would that solve your
problem?

I guess my lack of understanding here is with the status of the neutral, or
return live. If I understand correctly, this cable is merely a looped
continuation of the live feed to the original light's live terminal,
allowing for a break in the circuit - the actual neutral in question being
directly connected to the light. Does that sound about right?

Yup spot on. The cable to the switch carries live down, and live back.

And if that
is the case, I am buggered I presume unless I want to start drilling holes?

Yup, 'fraid so.

One other vague possibility. Beside the switch for the original light,
there was a blanking plate. When I took it away, there were 3 twin & earth
cables coming in that all appear to be dead (presumably have been chopped
somewhere along the line). If one of the neutrals were by some chance still
connected back to a "real" neutral, would that be safe to use along with the
live from the switch?

Not unless you can be sure that the nutural returns to the same circuit
that is feeding the lights.

Other alternatives ... bring power from the socket ring-main up to the
ceiling for that light? Not ideal, but safe if it's a fused connection??

Can be done. Simplest would be if you could get new light feed to same
location as current light. You could open up a small hole in the ceiling
(or lift a floor board in the room above perhaps?) large enough to get
some crimped connections through to join the new wire to the old and the
drop to the light pendant.


--
Cheers,

John.

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In article , "al"
says...
"Stefek Zaba" wrote in message
...
And do get a decent book - the Collin's D-I-Y manual's pretty sound - to
get your head round the basics of house electrics. If you start feeling
unsure, get an electrician in - it's really not a good idea to stuff about
when you're as unsure which way is up as you seem to be...


Funnily enough I have just that book and understand perfectly how to do it
under normal circumstances. What I'm trying to do here is cheat so as to
not damage walls/ceilings ... :o(


What does your manual have to say about plastering ceilings? ;^

"Rob Morley" wrote in message
What does your manual have to say about plastering ceilings? ;^

Run away ..... ;o)



a

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
al wrote:

My problem is accessibility. If I could get to the junction box
(wherever in the ceiling that may be - there is no rose for the original
light - just two wires coming out of the ceiling), then I could wire it
up fine and understand it fine.

If you opened up that hole a couple of inches, would that solve your
problem?


Unfortunately not, it's on the other side of the kitchen, through an arch.
No clean way of bringing the cable over. No access to ceiling from above
either, it's on an extension. The tiled roof above it has no access.

Other alternatives ... bring power from the socket ring-main up to the
ceiling for that light? Not ideal, but safe if it's a fused connection??

Can be done. Simplest would be if you could get new light feed to same
location as current light. You could open up a small hole in the ceiling
(or lift a floor board in the room above perhaps?) large enough to get
some crimped connections through to join the new wire to the old and the
drop to the light pendant.


Again, couldn't bring the cable over. What would I physically need to buy
(in terms of safely and permanently fusing it) if I ran a spur from the
mains ring to it?




a

I'm a little stuck! I have a light in my kitchen which works fine. I
want
to add another light at the other end. To achieve this, I have been able
to
run cable from that other end back to the switch box for the original
light.
I cannot draw live feed from the ring as it is not accessible without
destroying stuff!

Step away from the tools. Call an electrician.

Christian.