Bought a 9" with a 4.5 ft bed, made around 1948. Front of the front V
and the back of the back V are worn, the front is much worse.
Fingernail catches easily near the top of the V. Options seem to be:

1. Regrind both V ways. (The cost of having this done commercially is
just out of my league. Thanks for suggesting it but it ain't gonna
happen.) Already spoke with a friend who has a grinder but it doesn't
have the capacity. I am thinking about doing this:

http://home.eunet.no/~einar/wshop/grind.htm

but will need to check the flat ways to insure that they're flat &
straight enough.

2. Moglice. Please comment on this potential approach.

a. Stone down any nicks or bumps on the front of the front way.
b. Thoroughly degrease the front way.
b. Get a scrap of thick plate glass, 1/2" preferred, maybe 2" wide
and 3 feet long (ought to be free if I can find the right glass shop).
Apply mold release.
c. Apply Moglice to the low areas, spread it around.
d. Press the glass against the way surface and rub it back and forth
until it contacts the way. Clamp it in place, gently (c-clamps with
rubber contacting the glass).
e. Allow Moglice to cure, slide off the glass, trim off any odds and
ends sticking out here n there.
f. Repeat for the back way.

As long as the glass doesn't twist more than a thousanth or so, the
new surface should be in the same plane as the original way surface,
and should be as flat as the glass---which is pretty flat.

3. Same as #2 but with a home-brewed epoxy mixture. I have several
types of epoxy and powdered materials of various sizes for filler
(down to 400 mesh): aluminum, teflon, stainless steel, aluminum
oxide, graphite.

Some questions:

--If I regrind there are other parts on the lathe that need to be
fiddled with afterward. What needs to be done in that vein?

--Cost of Moglice? I understand it's rather expensive. Anyone deal
in very small quantities of this material? I don't need 500 grams,
more like 10 grams.

--Degreaser for the ways? (gotta remove 60-year-old grease and oil for
a good bond...)

--Anyone who has done #3 and can comment on a useful mixture (one
you've actually used, preferably)? Am thinking that graphite ought to
be the right filler due to its lubricating abilities. Teflon powder
is soft and won't bond to the epoxy. This general approach is being
considered, not because I'm cheap (well... that too... :-) ) but
because I'd like to test the utility of the method and maybe report on
it in HSM or elsewhere. I plan to test it out on scrap metal first.

I'm in no hurry. Already have a 14 x 42 SB in the shop for lathe
work.

Best -- Terry

Terry, let us know what you find out about this. I am in the same boat
as you.

My feel about a DIY regrind is that a lot of things can go wrong and
the likelihood of ME succeeding in making the bed true, is not great.

i

If your time is worth a plug nickle, you're better getting off another
machine and sending this one on down the road. Prices are really depressed
right now. If you can afford it, hold on to this one till inflation kicks in
big time. I think hobby machine tools will be a decent investment if you
hold 3 - 5 years. Could be wrong.

If you have an attachment to this particular machine, bite the bullet and
have somebody grind it.

Just my 2 cents

Karl

On 2009-12-09, Karl Townsend wrote:
If your time is worth a plug nickle, you're better getting off another
machine and sending this one on down the road. Prices are really depressed
right now. If you can afford it, hold on to this one till inflation kicks in
big time. I think hobby machine tools will be a decent investment if you
hold 3 - 5 years. Could be wrong.

I have the same opinion, except that the space that they take is
expensive. But, like you, I agree that they will likely rebound in
price.

If you have an attachment to this particular machine, bite the bullet and
have somebody grind it.

Just my 2 cents

I could not agree more!

i

On Dec 9, 8:50*am, Terry wrote:
Bought a 9" with a 4.5 ft bed, made around 1948. *Front of the front V
and the back of the back V are worn, the front is much worse.

If there's lots of wear, the carriage and tailstock should be
disassembled
and cleaned (there could be grit embedded from past use).

I'm not sure what the best degreasing would be (I'd probably start
with solvent and Scotchbrite pads, finish with paint remover, but
what do I know?), but degreasing and a wipe down (old-style,
linseed oil) would be second.

Then, assemble, lube, and carefully level and shim the bed. A few
test
cuts will tell you if the 'wear' is a functional problem. Maybe it's
good enough as-is.

The glass-and-moglice treatment will give you smooth, but not
necessarily
accurate. Don't trust it.

"Terry" wrote in message
...
Bought a 9" with a 4.5 ft bed, made around 1948. Front of the front V
and the back of the back V are worn, the front is much worse.
Fingernail catches easily near the top of the V. Options seem to be:

1. Regrind both V ways. (The cost of having this done commercially is
just out of my league. Thanks for suggesting it but it ain't gonna
happen.) Already spoke with a friend who has a grinder but it doesn't
have the capacity. I am thinking about doing this:

http://home.eunet.no/~einar/wshop/grind.htm

but will need to check the flat ways to insure that they're flat &
straight enough.

2. Moglice. Please comment on this potential approach.

a. Stone down any nicks or bumps on the front of the front way.
b. Thoroughly degrease the front way.
b. Get a scrap of thick plate glass, 1/2" preferred, maybe 2" wide
and 3 feet long (ought to be free if I can find the right glass shop).
Apply mold release.
c. Apply Moglice to the low areas, spread it around.
d. Press the glass against the way surface and rub it back and forth
until it contacts the way. Clamp it in place, gently (c-clamps with
rubber contacting the glass).
e. Allow Moglice to cure, slide off the glass, trim off any odds and
ends sticking out here n there.
f. Repeat for the back way.

As long as the glass doesn't twist more than a thousanth or so, the
new surface should be in the same plane as the original way surface,
and should be as flat as the glass---which is pretty flat.

3. Same as #2 but with a home-brewed epoxy mixture. I have several
types of epoxy and powdered materials of various sizes for filler
(down to 400 mesh): aluminum, teflon, stainless steel, aluminum
oxide, graphite.

Some questions:

--If I regrind there are other parts on the lathe that need to be
fiddled with afterward. What needs to be done in that vein?

--Cost of Moglice? I understand it's rather expensive. Anyone deal
in very small quantities of this material? I don't need 500 grams,
more like 10 grams.

--Degreaser for the ways? (gotta remove 60-year-old grease and oil for
a good bond...)

--Anyone who has done #3 and can comment on a useful mixture (one
you've actually used, preferably)? Am thinking that graphite ought to
be the right filler due to its lubricating abilities. Teflon powder
is soft and won't bond to the epoxy. This general approach is being
considered, not because I'm cheap (well... that too... :-) ) but
because I'd like to test the utility of the method and maybe report on
it in HSM or elsewhere. I plan to test it out on scrap metal first.

I'm in no hurry. Already have a 14 x 42 SB in the shop for lathe
work.

Best -- Terry

As an optical engineer I can comment about the epoxy and glass technique as
it is similar in concept to making replicated mirror surfaces from epoxy.
The most proprietary part of the process is the release film and separation
method. If you use an oil film, the epoxy stays gummy on the surface. If
you use a spray-on teflon or silicone coating, the epoxy still sticks
somewhat, and since the bond area is very large it can be very difficult to
remove the rigid glass from the rigid epoxy. The companies that do this
vacuum evaporate a very thin layer of some proprietary substance on the
glass and then have a secret process to separate the glass. I have seen
other mold-making techniques where compressed air is injected into the gap
to help separate the mold. Perhaps this is what they do.

I wonder if a more-surefire way would be to apply the epoxy a little thick
and then manually scrape it using the glass as the master flat plate. You
can read up on hand scraping on the web. I would think it would be easier to
scrape filled epoxy than steel.

Terry,
There is no economical way of saving this machine. Scrap it for parts on eBay and buy a better 13 x 40 machine that is not used
up. If you don't know how to do that, get tech support.. Both Iggy and Karl are correct.
Steve

"Terry" wrote in message ...
Bought a 9" with a 4.5 ft bed, made around 1948. Front of the front V
and the back of the back V are worn, the front is much worse.
Fingernail catches easily near the top of the V. Options seem to be:

1. Regrind both V ways. (The cost of having this done commercially is
just out of my league. Thanks for suggesting it but it ain't gonna
happen.) Already spoke with a friend who has a grinder but it doesn't
have the capacity. I am thinking about doing this:

http://home.eunet.no/~einar/wshop/grind.htm

but will need to check the flat ways to insure that they're flat &
straight enough.

2. Moglice. Please comment on this potential approach.

a. Stone down any nicks or bumps on the front of the front way.
b. Thoroughly degrease the front way.
b. Get a scrap of thick plate glass, 1/2" preferred, maybe 2" wide
and 3 feet long (ought to be free if I can find the right glass shop).
Apply mold release.
c. Apply Moglice to the low areas, spread it around.
d. Press the glass against the way surface and rub it back and forth
until it contacts the way. Clamp it in place, gently (c-clamps with
rubber contacting the glass).
e. Allow Moglice to cure, slide off the glass, trim off any odds and
ends sticking out here n there.
f. Repeat for the back way.

As long as the glass doesn't twist more than a thousanth or so, the
new surface should be in the same plane as the original way surface,
and should be as flat as the glass---which is pretty flat.

3. Same as #2 but with a home-brewed epoxy mixture. I have several
types of epoxy and powdered materials of various sizes for filler
(down to 400 mesh): aluminum, teflon, stainless steel, aluminum
oxide, graphite.

Some questions:

--If I regrind there are other parts on the lathe that need to be
fiddled with afterward. What needs to be done in that vein?

--Cost of Moglice? I understand it's rather expensive. Anyone deal
in very small quantities of this material? I don't need 500 grams,
more like 10 grams.

--Degreaser for the ways? (gotta remove 60-year-old grease and oil for
a good bond...)

--Anyone who has done #3 and can comment on a useful mixture (one
you've actually used, preferably)? Am thinking that graphite ought to
be the right filler due to its lubricating abilities. Teflon powder
is soft and won't bond to the epoxy. This general approach is being
considered, not because I'm cheap (well... that too... :-) ) but
because I'd like to test the utility of the method and maybe report on
it in HSM or elsewhere. I plan to test it out on scrap metal first.

I'm in no hurry. Already have a 14 x 42 SB in the shop for lathe
work.

Best -- Terry

Terry wrote:

2. Moglice. Please comment on this potential approach.

Moglice is often used in repairing Clausing Varidrives.

http://wess.freeshell.org/clausing/Clausing.html My attempt.

Are you going to try to use half a can at a time?

How are you going to repair the sadle wear? If the ways are worn, I would assume
(dangerous) that the sadle is worn.

Dewitt seems to have exclusive rights to market this assuming you are in the USA.

http://www.moglice.com/lowfrictionwayliners.html

I'd call them and run your idea past them.

Wes





--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

On 2009-12-09, Steve Lusardi wrote:
Terry,

There is no economical way of saving this machine. Scrap it for
parts on eBay and buy a better 13 x 40 machine that is not used
up. If you don't know how to do that, get tech support.. Both Iggy
and Karl are correct. Steve

Steve Lusardi was the first guy to say it to me. It took me a year to
believe him. Now I know that he is right.

i

"Terry" wrote in message ...
Bought a 9" with a 4.5 ft bed, made around 1948. Front of the front V
and the back of the back V are worn, the front is much worse.
Fingernail catches easily near the top of the V. Options seem to be:

1. Regrind both V ways. (The cost of having this done commercially is
just out of my league. Thanks for suggesting it but it ain't gonna
happen.) Already spoke with a friend who has a grinder but it doesn't
have the capacity. I am thinking about doing this:

http://home.eunet.no/~einar/wshop/grind.htm

but will need to check the flat ways to insure that they're flat &
straight enough.

2. Moglice. Please comment on this potential approach.

a. Stone down any nicks or bumps on the front of the front way.
b. Thoroughly degrease the front way.
b. Get a scrap of thick plate glass, 1/2" preferred, maybe 2" wide
and 3 feet long (ought to be free if I can find the right glass shop).
Apply mold release.
c. Apply Moglice to the low areas, spread it around.
d. Press the glass against the way surface and rub it back and forth
until it contacts the way. Clamp it in place, gently (c-clamps with
rubber contacting the glass).
e. Allow Moglice to cure, slide off the glass, trim off any odds and
ends sticking out here n there.
f. Repeat for the back way.

As long as the glass doesn't twist more than a thousanth or so, the
new surface should be in the same plane as the original way surface,
and should be as flat as the glass---which is pretty flat.

3. Same as #2 but with a home-brewed epoxy mixture. I have several
types of epoxy and powdered materials of various sizes for filler
(down to 400 mesh): aluminum, teflon, stainless steel, aluminum
oxide, graphite.

Some questions:

--If I regrind there are other parts on the lathe that need to be
fiddled with afterward. What needs to be done in that vein?

--Cost of Moglice? I understand it's rather expensive. Anyone deal
in very small quantities of this material? I don't need 500 grams,
more like 10 grams.

--Degreaser for the ways? (gotta remove 60-year-old grease and oil for
a good bond...)

--Anyone who has done #3 and can comment on a useful mixture (one
you've actually used, preferably)? Am thinking that graphite ought to
be the right filler due to its lubricating abilities. Teflon powder
is soft and won't bond to the epoxy. This general approach is being
considered, not because I'm cheap (well... that too... :-) ) but
because I'd like to test the utility of the method and maybe report on
it in HSM or elsewhere. I plan to test it out on scrap metal first.

I'm in no hurry. Already have a 14 x 42 SB in the shop for lathe
work.

Best -- Terry

On Dec 10, 3:50 am, Terry wrote:
Bought a 9" with a 4.5 ft bed, made around 1948. Front of the front V
and the back of the back V are worn, the front is much worse.
Fingernail catches easily near the top of the V. Options seem to be:


Worth a try - do you have a trades school nearby who could be
persuaded to take it on as a teaching exercise, or even enroll
yourself for a term to get access to their (usually) industrial
machinery. The instructors are nice people - teachers LIVE for the
students who are actually interested in learning...and they dont have
to be so paranoid about us mature aged students doing something
stupendously stupid....

Andrew VK3BFA.

On Dec 9, 6:25*pm, Ignoramus18200 ignoramus18...@NOSPAM.
18200.invalid wrote:
On 2009-12-09, Steve Lusardi wrote:
There is no economical way of saving this machine. Scrap it for
parts on eBay and buy a better 13 x 40 machine that is not used
up. .... *Steve

Steve Lusardi was the first guy to say it to me. It took me a year to
believe him. Now I know that he is right.
i

I milled the worn bed of my 6" AA/Sears lathe. The carriage is now
~0.030 lower and the half nuts don't line up with the lead screw. I
had planned to install 1/32" brass shims under the carriage to raise
it back but they caused too much play, and anyway I have a larger
lathe.

If you have the room for it there is rough, messy work that can be
done on a poor lathe to save the good one, such as turning cast iron,
metal spinning, and lapping or polishing. The bed and leadscrew at the
tailstock end may not be so bad.

jsw

Karl Townsend wrote:
If your time is worth a plug nickle, you're better getting off another
machine and sending this one on down the road. Prices are really depressed
right now. If you can afford it, hold on to this one till inflation kicks in
big time. I think hobby machine tools will be a decent investment if you
hold 3 - 5 years. Could be wrong.

The first question you should always ask yourself
before buying old heavy iron; do I want a lathe/
mill/shaper or do I want a project.

Those old guys that built those machines were pretty
clever and it seems unlikely I could second-guess
them with a can of epoxy and a bunch of shims...

Terry wrote:
Bought a 9" with a 4.5 ft bed, made around 1948. Front of the front V
and the back of the back V are worn, the front is much worse.
Fingernail catches easily near the top of the V. Options seem to be:

1. Regrind both V ways. (The cost of having this done commercially is
just out of my league. Thanks for suggesting it but it ain't gonna
happen.) Already spoke with a friend who has a grinder but it doesn't
have the capacity. I am thinking about doing this:

http://home.eunet.no/~einar/wshop/grind.htm

but will need to check the flat ways to insure that they're flat &
straight enough.

I did this on my Sheldon 15" lathe with pretty
good results. I probably should
have stopped there, but I wanted to make it
"perfect". That took me an
additional 20 months or something!

2. Moglice. Please comment on this potential approach.

I used Moglice on the underside of the carriage.
It works great, but is expensive.

a. Stone down any nicks or bumps on the front of the front way.
b. Thoroughly degrease the front way.
b. Get a scrap of thick plate glass, 1/2" preferred, maybe 2" wide
and 3 feet long (ought to be free if I can find the right glass shop).
Glass is not flat, way far from it!
Apply mold release.
c. Apply Moglice to the low areas, spread it around.
It won't stick in thin films, it is supposed to be
used in .060" thickness,
minimum.
d. Press the glass against the way surface and rub it back and forth
until it contacts the way. Clamp it in place, gently (c-clamps with
rubber contacting the glass).
e. Allow Moglice to cure, slide off the glass, trim off any odds and
ends sticking out here n there.
f. Repeat for the back way.

I believe this procedure will never work. It will
put a layer of Moglice on
the bed, but it won't be anywhere NEAR flat. You
will then still have to
hand-scrape the Moglice using spotting dye and a
known-good straightedge.

As long as the glass doesn't twist more than a thousanth or so, the
new surface should be in the same plane as the original way surface,
and should be as flat as the glass---which is pretty flat.

It will deflect 20 thousandths just due to the
pressure of pushing on the
Moglice. No, if you apply spotting dye to a
known-good surface plate and
put a sheet of glass on it, you will be amazed at
how NON-flat ordinary
glass is. I have worked with surface plates, and
made my own straightedges
(I finished a Michael Morgan 25" straightedge) and
then made a set of 3
right-angle plates. Also, glass is VERY flexible,
so any force, or even its own
weight, will cause it to deflect. That's why
straightedges have a "spine"
on their backs, to add the necessary stiffness to
prevent bowing.


--Cost of Moglice? I understand it's rather expensive. Anyone deal
in very small quantities of this material? I don't need 500 grams,
more like 10 grams.
Devitt Machinery sells it down to 50g, I think.
That isn't very much.
It will cost you over $100 for the correct setup
of materials.

Bottom line : If your tailstock ways are in good
shape (usually are) then
rig a toolpost grinder on the compound slide,
which is rigged by an
angle plate to the tailstock base. Tow this
arrangement down the bed
with a small gearmotor so it takes 5 minutes or so
to complete a pass.
Keep stepping down until it cleans up the whole
length of bed, then repeat for several "sparking
out" passes without stepping down.

Now, smooth the bed finish with a fine bench stone
totally saturated with ATF
or air tool oil. I rubbed two stones together to
keep them flat every couple times.
Now, apply Moglice putty to the bottom of the
carriage. You may want to machine
the carriage bottom so the moglice has sufficient
thickness and the carriage
ends up back where it is supposed to be. I didn't
do this machining and really
should have. I ended up putting a .010 shim
betweent he carriage and apron,
and that sorta works.

I drilled and tapped holes in the carriage for 8
10-32 brass-tip setscrews to locate
the carriage in perfect alignment to the spindle,
and set the clearance between
carriage and bed. There's 4 screws straight down
in the corners, two horizontal in
front and two in back. I loosened the front
screws a hair to remove, and then snugged them
back when the Moglice-coated carriage was placed
back on the bed.
The screws are then used to pop the carriage free
from the bed. It still takes
significant force to pop the bond, even with their
recommended mold release
agent.

Jon