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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:03:39 GMT, Gunner
wrote: On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 19:49:59 +0000 (UTC), wrote: Read about how some people feel about them. Word to the wise, don't shoot the wrong person's cat. There's a big hoo-ha going on in Wisconsin right now about shooting cats. In MN, feral cats have the same status as gophers and weasels: it's OK to shoot them if they're a problem. Cats that are companions and pets should be treated as such rather than allowed to roam at will and lurk near bird feeders. The legal situation with dogs is less clear, but the practice is no less clear in rural areas if an unrestrained domestic animal becomes a recurrant nuisance. On the other hand, shooting a person who shot the animal you allowed to become feral is not winked at. That's a ticket to jail for a long time. Warning poofs in the snow are considered a "statement in unversally-understood language" as long as they don't hit anybody. Mrs. Stringer used to "speak out" thusly to snowmobile trespassers with her .30-06 until she was well past 80. She never hit anybody but she might have punched a few sleds as punctuation. Just letting 'em know she was paying attention to her domain and expected them to do so also. |
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On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:47:51 -0600, Don Foreman wrote:
On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:03:39 GMT, Gunner wrote: On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 19:49:59 +0000 (UTC), wrote: Read about how some people feel about them. Word to the wise, don't shoot the wrong person's cat. There's a big hoo-ha going on in Wisconsin right now about shooting cats. In MN, feral cats have the same status as gophers and weasels: it's OK to shoot them if they're a problem. I, for one, am shocked by this proposal. I had no idea that feral cats _were_ any different than other pest animals, legally speaking. I suppose someone is now going to tell me I shouldn't be shooting the gophers as well? |
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On 18 Mar 2005 17:54:27 GMT, Dave Hinz wrote:
On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:47:51 -0600, Don Foreman wrote: On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:03:39 GMT, Gunner wrote: On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 19:49:59 +0000 (UTC), wrote: Read about how some people feel about them. Word to the wise, don't shoot the wrong person's cat. There's a big hoo-ha going on in Wisconsin right now about shooting cats. In MN, feral cats have the same status as gophers and weasels: it's OK to shoot them if they're a problem. I, for one, am shocked by this proposal. I had no idea that feral cats _were_ any different than other pest animals, legally speaking. I suppose someone is now going to tell me I shouldn't be shooting the gophers as well? Maybe in WS, not in MN! http://www.rense.com/general63/cats.htm http://www.startribune.com/stories/531/5294789.html |
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On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:03:39 -0600, Don Foreman wrote:
On 18 Mar 2005 17:54:27 GMT, Dave Hinz wrote: I, for one, am shocked by this proposal. I had no idea that feral cats _were_ any different than other pest animals, legally speaking. I suppose someone is now going to tell me I shouldn't be shooting the gophers as well? Maybe in WS, not in MN! http://www.rense.com/general63/cats.htm http://www.startribune.com/stories/531/5294789.html Sorry, maybe I was unclear. I consider a pest cat to be no more protected than a pest gopher, a pest raccoon, or any other critter that is where it doesn't belong. If it comes down to songbirds or a feral cat, I'll protect the birds. |
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In article , Dave Hinz says...
If it comes down to songbirds or a feral cat, I'll protect the birds. Oddly though the birds are just as feral as the cats. Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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On 18 Mar 2005 13:10:01 -0800, jim rozen wrote:
In article , Dave Hinz says... If it comes down to songbirds or a feral cat, I'll protect the birds. Oddly though the birds are just as feral as the cats. Well, I think the birds were there first, weren't they? |
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On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:47:51 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote: On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:03:39 GMT, Gunner wrote: On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 19:49:59 +0000 (UTC), wrote: Read about how some people feel about them. Word to the wise, don't shoot the wrong person's cat. There's a big hoo-ha going on in Wisconsin right now about shooting cats. In MN, feral cats have the same status as gophers and weasels: it's OK to shoot them if they're a problem. Cats that are companions and pets should be treated as such rather than allowed to roam at will and lurk near bird feeders. I prefer a CATapult to discourage ****tycats. Gerry :-)} London, Canada |
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In article , Dave Hinz says...
Oddly though the birds are just as feral as the cats. Well, I think the birds were there first, weren't they? Heh. Actually yes. To put this in perspective, there's no reason not to shoot either of those. How do folks feel about shooting the birds? If it's OK to shoot the cats, then it's OK to shoot birds. Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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jim rozen wrote:
In article , Dave Hinz says... Oddly though the birds are just as feral as the cats. Well, I think the birds were there first, weren't they? Heh. Actually yes. To put this in perspective, there's no reason not to shoot either of those. How do folks feel about shooting the birds? If it's OK to shoot the cats, then it's OK to shoot birds. Isn't there some common wisdom that says the least cute animal loses in a situation like this? |
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"Gerald Miller" wrote in message ... On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:47:51 -0600, Don Foreman wrote: On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:03:39 GMT, Gunner wrote: On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 19:49:59 +0000 (UTC), wrote: Read about how some people feel about them. Word to the wise, don't shoot the wrong person's cat. There's a big hoo-ha going on in Wisconsin right now about shooting cats. In MN, feral cats have the same status as gophers and weasels: it's OK to shoot them if they're a problem. Cats that are companions and pets should be treated as such rather than allowed to roam at will and lurk near bird feeders. I prefer a CATapult to discourage ****tycats. Gerry :-)} London, Canada A fence charger hooked to an empty tuna can seems to work ... Actually, in King County, Washington, cats are supposed to be controlled just like dogs (leash law). Animal control will loan you the live trap to catch the critters and it costs the owner $50-$100 to get the critter back depending on if it was licensed (the only down side is there is a waiting list to borrow the traps .. go figure ;-) |
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Gerald Miller wrote:
On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:47:51 -0600, Don Foreman wrote: On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:03:39 GMT, Gunner wrote: On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 19:49:59 +0000 (UTC), wrote: Read about how some people feel about them. Word to the wise, don't shoot the wrong person's cat. There's a big hoo-ha going on in Wisconsin right now about shooting cats. In MN, feral cats have the same status as gophers and weasels: it's OK to shoot them if they're a problem. Cats that are companions and pets should be treated as such rather than allowed to roam at will and lurk near bird feeders. I prefer a CATapult to discourage ****tycats. Gerry :-)} London, Canada Feral (domestic) cats are an 'introduced' predator in North America. http://www.nationalreview.com/goldbe...0503160743.asp Australia http://www.deh.gov.au/biodiversity/i...cat/index.html "There is clear evidence that feral cats have had a heavy impact on island fauna. On Macquarie Island, for example, feral cats caused the extinction of a subspecies of the red-fronted parakeet. On the mainland, they have probably contributed to the extinction of many small to medium sized mammals and ground-nesting birds in the arid zone, and seriously affected bilby, mala and numbat populations. In some instances, feral cats have directly threatened the success of recovery programs for endangered species. Feral cats carry infectious diseases such as toxoplasmosis and sarcosporidiosis, which can be transmitted to native animals, domestic livestock and humans. If rabies were to be accidentally introduced into Australia, there is a high risk that feral cats would act as carriers of the disease." For my money feral cats = target practice. Regards. Ken. -- http://www.rupert.net/~solar Return address supplied by 'spammotel' http://www.spammotel.com |
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jim rozen wrote:
In article , Dave Hinz says... If it comes down to songbirds or a feral cat, I'll protect the birds. Oddly though the birds are just as feral as the cats. Jim No Jim. Feral means a domestic animal gone wild, the birds are naturally wild ie. never were domesticated. ...lew... |
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In article , Jim Stewart says...
To put this in perspective, there's no reason not to shoot either of those. How do folks feel about shooting the birds? If it's OK to shoot the cats, then it's OK to shoot birds. Isn't there some common wisdom that says the least cute animal loses in a situation like this? For me it's sort of a non-issue. There are no feral animals in my city, because there's an animal control officer who makes sure of this. And I find no particular reason to go around shooting birds either. JIm -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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Ken Davey wrote:
Australia http://www.deh.gov.au/biodiversity/i...cat/index.html Did you ever see that documentary on the ABC about the last group of aborigines to be brought into civilisation in the 1980s? When the old women were asked what they had survived on she answered "cats" and then proceeded to demonostrate how to catch on in spinifex country. Basically you just run them to ground (they are only good for a short sprint) then club them and chuck them on a fire. She basically confirmed the heavy impact that cats (all cats are feral in AUS) had had on native wildlife that was traditional aboriginal food. |
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In article .net, Lew
Hartswick says... Oddly though the birds are just as feral as the cats. No Jim. Feral means a domestic animal gone wild, the birds are naturally wild ie. never were domesticated. It's a non-biological distinction. Sure the cat is felix domesticus but probably most of the feral cats in question were born in the wild and never were pets. A biologist would not make the distinction. They're both wild animals. Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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On 18 Mar 2005 13:10:01 -0800, jim rozen
wrote: In article , Dave Hinz says... If it comes down to songbirds or a feral cat, I'll protect the birds. Oddly though the birds are just as feral as the cats. Good point. Jim. Feral does mean wild, not necessarily predatory. Feral cats are predators and owls and raptors are not songbirds. Songbirds eat seeds. Those who might enjoy the company of songbirds should not be deprived of that by feral cats. Songbirds present no nuisance to anyone that I can think of. I have been known to shoot the tailfeathers off of a (protected and gorgeous) downey woodpecker when it persisted in trying to drill my eaves at dark-early hours. I did not want to injure the bird, but Gawd what a racket he made! A bit of precison plucking from yonder motivated him to go drill something else hours before I care to rise. He's still around and I enjoy seeing him now and then. There's plenty of room round here for both of us. |
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On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 02:04:46 GMT, the inscrutable Lew Hartswick
spake: jim rozen wrote: Oddly though the birds are just as feral as the cats. No Jim. Feral means a domestic animal gone wild, Ah, the term "Feral Government" just took on new meaning. ---------------------------------------------------------- Please return Stewardess to her original upright position. -------------------------------------- http://www.diversify.com Tagline-based T-shirts! |
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On 18 Mar 2005 18:41:49 -0800, the inscrutable jim rozen
spake: In article .net, Lew Hartswick says... Oddly though the birds are just as feral as the cats. No Jim. Feral means a domestic animal gone wild, the birds are naturally wild ie. never were domesticated. It's a non-biological distinction. Sure the cat is felix domesticus but probably most of the feral cats in question were born in the wild and never were pets. A biologist would not make the distinction. They're both wild animals. Cats and biologists? -- People will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time they'll pick themselves up and carry on. --anon |
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In article , Don Foreman says...
Feral cats are predators and owls and raptors are not songbirds. No kidding. We found a huge ring of pigeon feathers in our backyard. A hawk had killed the bird, ripped the feathers off, and flown away with the carcass. Raptors and scavengers all serve a purpose. We had a huge number of crows that gathered in the trees in your yard, they were having a convention I think. And the scavenger vultures around here are *huge*. They're as large as wild turkeys, amazing birds. You think there's a german sheperd up in the tree by the roadside.... Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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Just an interesting note for this thread. I may be repeating myself,
as I think I've told this story once before. When I lived in Pensylvania, I owned a really cool cat. I worked graveyard shift, and when I left for work, I let the cat out for the night. I'd come home in the morn, call for the cat (he'd come running) and the cat would come in, eat, sleep, and hang around with me 'til I left for work again. I often found a "gift" of his hunting prowess by the door, usually a shrew or mole that met their demise by his claws. One day it was a pile of red feathers. Had to have been a cardinal. This is when my one neighbor mentioned how free roaming cats ruin the songbird population. Never mind the fact that the mole population declined, there were no more skunks digging in the yards for grubs, or the squirrels seemed to have moved on to easier-bird-feeder-raiding grounds. Never mind the fact that my cat was indoors during the day, when the bird feeders were mostly visited. Never mind the fact that I placed my bird feeders well clear of anywhere that the cat could have used as an ambush point. Never mind the fact that the red-tailed hawks in the area picked off more songbirds. No, sir... my cat was THE cause of the declining songbird population. I guess I don't understand some people's reasoning. What if the pile of feathers had been from an sparrow (an introduced species) or a nasty, noisy starling, or an illigitimate ******* blue jay instead of a pretty red cardinal? The cat would have been a hero, I suppose. Anyhow, to end on a humorous note, I once found a "gift" by the door in the morning consisting of a dead squirrel minus the head. I wondered at the time where the head might have gone, possibly tucked into boss squirrel's nest as he slept as a "godfather" type warning, or could it have been used by the cat in some secret cat ritual of building a small bonfire and dancing around it with painted-cat-body and squirrel head on stick? All I know is I didn't care for the cat to lick my face after that...LOL Ron |
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On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 02:12:22 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote: snip .. Songbirds present no ===nuisance to anyone that I can think of. They are to me..I hate it when I have my windows open and those critters start their dam singing and chirping.................Thats what they make 12 ga 3 1/2" shells for, ..those pesky songbirds......;-) ============================================== Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked! |
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On 19 Mar 2005 07:51:38 -0800, "doo" wrote:
Just an interesting note for this thread. I may be repeating myself, as I think I've told this story once before. When I lived in Pensylvania, I owned a really cool cat. I worked graveyard shift, and when I left for work, I let the cat out for the night. I'd come home in the morn, call for the cat (he'd come running) and the cat would come in, eat, sleep, and hang around with me 'til I left for work again. I often found a "gift" of his hunting prowess by the door, usually a shrew or mole that met their demise by his claws. One day it was a pile of red feathers. Had to have been a cardinal. This is when my one neighbor mentioned how free roaming cats ruin the songbird population. Never mind the fact that the mole population declined, there were no more skunks digging in the yards for grubs, or the squirrels seemed to have moved on to easier-bird-feeder-raiding grounds. Never mind the fact that my cat was indoors during the day, when the bird feeders were mostly visited. Never mind the fact that I placed my bird feeders well clear of anywhere that the cat could have used as an ambush point. Never mind the fact that the red-tailed hawks in the area picked off more songbirds. No, sir... my cat was THE cause of the declining songbird population. I guess I don't understand some people's reasoning. What if the pile of feathers had been from an sparrow (an introduced species) or a nasty, noisy starling, or an illigitimate ******* blue jay instead of a pretty red cardinal? The cat would have been a hero, I suppose. Anyhow, to end on a humorous note, I once found a "gift" by the door in the morning consisting of a dead squirrel minus the head. I wondered at the time where the head might have gone, possibly tucked into boss squirrel's nest as he slept as a "godfather" type warning, or could it have been used by the cat in some secret cat ritual of building a small bonfire and dancing around it with painted-cat-body and squirrel head on stick? All I know is I didn't care for the cat to lick my face after that...LOL Ron I live in a side split wherein the upper level overhangs the level below by about three feet, leaving a sheltered area where snow does not accumulate, and, due to heat loss, this area never freezes. Every spring I clean up the winter accumulation of cat **** from the three neighbourhood free spirit house pets despite my numerous requests that they take better care of them. Now I have a special ice cube tray that provides excellent ammunition for my high powered "hard water" gun. Gerry :-)} London, Canada |
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On 19 Mar 2005 07:51:38 -0800, "doo" wrote:
Just an interesting note for this thread. I may be repeating myself, as I think I've told this story once before. When I lived in Pensylvania, I owned a really cool cat. I worked graveyard shift, and when I left for work, I let the cat out for the night. I'd come home in the morn, call for the cat (he'd come running) and the cat would come in, eat, sleep, and hang around with me 'til I left for work again. I often found a "gift" of his hunting prowess by the door, usually a shrew or mole that met their demise by his claws. One day it was a pile of red feathers. Had to have been a cardinal. This is when my one neighbor mentioned how free roaming cats ruin the songbird population. Never mind the fact that the mole population declined, there were no more skunks digging in the yards for grubs, or the squirrels seemed to have moved on to easier-bird-feeder-raiding grounds. Never mind the fact that my cat was indoors during the day, when the bird feeders were mostly visited. Never mind the fact that I placed my bird feeders well clear of anywhere that the cat could have used as an ambush point. Never mind the fact that the red-tailed hawks in the area picked off more songbirds. No, sir... my cat was THE cause of the declining songbird population. I guess I don't understand some people's reasoning. What if the pile of feathers had been from an sparrow (an introduced species) or a nasty, noisy starling, or an illigitimate ******* blue jay instead of a pretty red cardinal? The cat would have been a hero, I suppose. Anyhow, to end on a humorous note, I once found a "gift" by the door in the morning consisting of a dead squirrel minus the head. I wondered at the time where the head might have gone, possibly tucked into boss squirrel's nest as he slept as a "godfather" type warning, or could it have been used by the cat in some secret cat ritual of building a small bonfire and dancing around it with painted-cat-body and squirrel head on stick? All I know is I didn't care for the cat to lick my face after that...LOL Ron As far as heads go, the cat most likely ate it. All of it. I've watched my cat chew several rat heads. He crunches them up and downs 'em, jaws, teeth, fur, all of it. Leaves me the rest. Thanks cat. ERS |
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While I understand that both cats and dogs have impacted traditional
wildlife, one needs to bear in mind that it is the owners of these animals who are at fault for allowing this to occur. (1) because they allow the animal in question to roam and (2) because they allow their pets to breed with abandon. Let us also not forget to mention the impact human civilization has had on wildlife numbers. In my experience, people are far too quick to reach for their gun without considering what the real source of the problem is. Killing the creature in question does not solve the problem, just the immediate symptom. I have also noted that many of those that I have known that shoot whatever crosses their property also seem to allow their own dogs and cats to roam without regard for their neighbors. In one case many years ago, a neighbor shot the cat of an older woman which had escaped from her home. This neighbor had several black Labs that roamed the neighborhood freely making a nusiance of themselves. One day the two dogs did not come home. Years later I learned from her son that the old lady had shot and buried the dogs in her garden in revenge for her cat's untimely death. TMT |
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On 19 Mar 2005 21:37:11 -0800, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote: While I understand that both cats and dogs have impacted traditional wildlife, one needs to bear in mind that it is the owners of these animals who are at fault for allowing this to occur. (1) because they allow the animal in question to roam and (2) because they allow their pets to breed with abandon. Let us also not forget to mention the impact human civilization has had on wildlife numbers. In my experience, people are far too quick to reach for their gun without considering what the real source of the problem is. Killing the creature in question does not solve the problem, just the immediate symptom. I have also noted that many of those that I have known that shoot whatever crosses their property also seem to allow their own dogs and cats to roam without regard for their neighbors. In one case many years ago, a neighbor shot the cat of an older woman which had escaped from her home. This neighbor had several black Labs that roamed the neighborhood freely making a nusiance of themselves. One day the two dogs did not come home. Years later I learned from her son that the old lady had shot and buried the dogs in her garden in revenge for her cat's untimely death. TMT So in other words, I should forget about eliminating the immediate problem with the ****ty cats and shoot the neighbours instead? Gerry :-)} London, Canada |
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That is an option ;)...that is unless they have BIGGER guns ;)).
What I would do is live trap the cats and hand them over to the local animal control department. If the neighbors want their cats, they can pay the price...over and over and over again to get them back. Be prepared to be unpopular with the neighbors though...those who are unable to act responsibily with their animals usually blame others for their problems. I take it that the neighbors know about your problem? TMT |
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Greetings and Salutations....
On 19 Mar 2005 22:40:15 -0800, "Too_Many_Tools" wrote: That is an option ;)...that is unless they have BIGGER guns ;)). What I would do is live trap the cats and hand them over to the local animal control department. If the neighbors want their cats, they can pay the price...over and over and over again to get them back. Be prepared to be unpopular with the neighbors though...those who are unable to act responsibily with their animals usually blame others for their problems. I take it that the neighbors know about your problem? TMT I suppose this is more a sign of the increasing urbanization of society than any sign of a lessened sense of responsibility of pet owners. While dogs may be domesticated, and, cats semi-so, they have deep roots in the "wild animal" community, and, so the "natural" thing for them is to move round in the great outdoors, hunt, build territories, reproduce, and play. The problem is less with the animals than it is with the attitudes of the humans that seem to push them into cartoon parodies of their reality. Years ago, before my area of Knoxpatch got too bloody overrun with people, we kept a dog as well as a cat. They were mostly "outside" creatures, only being let into the house at intervals. They also roamed at will. It was not a problem because my neighbors were both spread really far out, and, were not all that up-tight about animals. We all knew each other's pets, and simply made friends with them. This was a great benefit to the area, actually, as it kept the mole, rat, and rabbit problem down. Since most of us had gardens of moderate size, this made a real difference. Alas, over the past 30 yrs or so, the area has become infested with rows of tacky, little apartment buildings, filled with too many folks. While many of them may well be folks of good will and friendliness, they are also very transient, and, it seems that a lot of them have a real fear of nature (in general) and dogs/cats in specific. This fear is a complicated, many-rooted thing, but, I think that some of the blame for it lays on the back of the media - who seem to delight in massive reporting of ANY incident involving a dog, and, then continue to go on and on about how any dog has to be considered a danger, and should be treated as such. These factors, combined with the fact that the typical apartment dwells has neither a clue WHO a given critter belongs to, or, a desire to integrate enough WITH the community to find that out, seems to mean that the automatic response is to call Animal Control and let it become the state's problem. So...because of this, I no longer keep a dog, and any cats that come to live with me are inside only animals. Cats deal with this fairly well, although they STILL want to go out and play in the real world. As for their impact on the songbird population...I suspect that the problem THERE is more the level of visibility than actual impact. There may be areas where the landscape is denuded of songbirds due to a massive collection of feral cats...but if that is so, it is probably because the songbirds were so bloody stupid that having them gone raised the IQ of the gene pool by at least a couple of points. In years past, my property has always been a favorite hunting ground for neighborhood cats to use. I always had a LOT of songbirds too, and, as a matter of fact, I recall a number of times where I saw the songbirds pestering the cats by deliberately flying down and perching on the ground or a low branch, then, springing into the air and flying off when the cats would try to catch them. If the songbirds were that concerned, or frightened, why would they circle back and land NEAR the cats (a known preditor) again? Nature is a complicated and intricate process, and, alas many humans are getting slightly too far away from the process... which leads to irrational actions and general stupidity. Now...as for roaming cats....once again...I suspect that the main thing they are going after are rodents and moles, both of which are small, and furry, and some folks consider them to be cute (I don't). If that is a bad thing for you... Let me know what your address is, I have a number of pesky squirrels and mice that I would LOVE to find a good home for. If you MUST do something "socially responsible", then, catch the cats, have them neutered, THEN let them go back to their owners. Regards Dave Mundt |
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In article , Dave Mundt says...
Nature is a complicated and intricate process, and, alas many humans are getting slightly too far away from the process... which leads to irrational actions and general stupidity. Possibly the best discourse on this subject I've heard yet. Though, one might say humans are getting to *close* to it! We encounter a lot of the animals such as bears and deer because we're encroaching on their habitat. I bet the tacky apartment dwellers you mention do complain about about how many deer they encounter with their cars. No wonder, they went and built their houses where the deer lived! Our cats stay indoors. They like to eat mice, so we are rodent-free in the house, even in the fall, when the field mice come inside. But the neighbors cat does stalk the bird feeder in the front yard - and as you say the birds there are smart enough to keep him from making a kill. Mean time between failure for most outdoor cats around here is about six months - on account of the busy street right in front of my house. Living in the city here, pets are not allowed by law to run wild, so there's no need to call the animal control guy (except the time I trapped a bat in the attic and wanted it tested for rabies) because that's what he does *all* the time. Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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"jim rozen" wrote in message
... In article , Dave Mundt says... Nature is a complicated and intricate process, and, alas many humans are getting slightly too far away from the process... which leads to irrational actions and general stupidity. Possibly the best discourse on this subject I've heard yet. Though, one might say humans are getting to *close* to it! We encounter a lot of the animals such as bears and deer because we're encroaching on their habitat. I bet the tacky apartment dwellers you mention do complain about about how many deer they encounter with their cars. No wonder, they went and built their houses where the deer lived! I didn't read Carl's message so I can't comment on what he said, but the deer/bear/people relationships are somewhat different here in NJ. In 1900, there were fewer than 100 deer in NJ. Now there are over 160,000 (winter herd, minimum) and they have moved back in where the people already were. A few years back, they ate $25,000 worth of new landscaping off the property of my boss at the time, the VP of Wasino. g In 1965, there were no bears in NJ. 'Hadn't been for over 100 years. Now we have over 1,000, packed into the northwest corner but spreading out as we speak, total number being debated. They came in on their own from NY and/or PA. They, too, found they like moving in where the people had moved to in the meantime. There are all those nice garbage cans around. And the little kids look pretty tasty, too. Oh, there were a couple of coyotes sighted here in Middlesex County last year. They're also new immigrants. The state is going to hell... -- Ed Huntress |
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Excellent posting Dave...if only I could write like that...you have my
admiration. TMT |
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You make a good point about the migration of animals in response to
changing environment and food supplies. Remember Ireland and the potato famine? The Dust Bowl years during the Great Depression? Happens to us too. The reason why the deer are so plentiful is that their pedators have for the large part been eliminated and replaced by your and my automobiles. Based on the ever increasing numbers, drivers obviously are not performing the pedatory function as well as who they replaced. The bears and coyotes...well, when the food supply moves those animals who depend on it moves with it. If garbage was controlled as it should be, the bears will go away. It won't be and they won't either. They did not just wake up one morning and think "Think I'll move to NJ" (they are smarter than that ;) ), their food supplies and habitat have changed to the point where they were forced to. Remember all that new construction going on because of cheap money...when that new home goes up, it is at the expense of someone's else home...usually the wildlife's. Cause and effect always happens and usually in ways we don't anticipate. Rabbits and Australia come to mind. TMT |
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My neighborhood in Austin is plagued with coyotes; they have killed an
estimated hundred pets (cats and dogs) and are so bold that people are getting nervous. So the city has started a coyote eradication program. So the cats eat the birds, and the coyotes eat the cats... |
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"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
ups.com... You make a good point about the migration of animals in response to changing environment and food supplies. Remember Ireland and the potato famine? The Dust Bowl years during the Great Depression? Happens to us too. The reason why the deer are so plentiful is that their pedators have for the large part been eliminated and replaced by your and my automobiles. However, the reason that the deer are *out of control* is, first, the "hobby farms" that sprung up in west- and northwest Jersey 30 years ago, and then the low-density suburbanization of the region ever since. Houses are too close together for hunting in large tracts of that area. But they're not too close together for the deer. And the planting of lower shrubs and other garden plants has provided a cornucopia for them. The density of deer population in Princeton Township, NJ a few years ago was the highest in North America. The last time I looked, which was maybe ten years ago, a hunter could kill 11 deer per year in NJ if he got all the permits. And it's easy. A couple of my friends got all 11 every year. But the number of hunters is declining along with the range in which to hunt. The deer thrive in many times the area in which one can hunt. Based on the ever increasing numbers, drivers obviously are not performing the pedatory function as well as who they replaced. The predators left 200 years ago. Alpha predators don't do well in a place this densely populated. Deer, on the other hand, do just great. The bears and coyotes...well, when the food supply moves those animals who depend on it moves with it. If garbage was controlled as it should be, the bears will go away. It hasn't happened. Since the bears moved in, townships in the NW corner of the state have enacted controls. The bears are still there. They're just more aggressive. As for coyotes, if you know of a way to cut off their food supply, it will be very helpful. They seem to have established themselves in the natural balance. They are incredibly adaptable. They'll eat almost anything. There are quite a few of them in the state. I just mentioned the couple in Middlesex County, where I live, because I'm within cannon range of Manhatten. On 9/11, I watched the smoke from the WTC through my attic window. It won't be and they won't either. They did not just wake up one morning and think "Think I'll move to NJ" (they are smarter than that ;) ), their food supplies and habitat have changed to the point where they were forced to. The theory is that they moved in from PA one drought year in which you could wade across the Delaware River without getting your knees wet. The other idea is that they just walked in from New York, as part of a general expansion of the population into that part of New York State. If there was something that "forced" them in, no one I've heard of has mentioned it. A fair portion of that part of NJ is state land or just open woods, so they got a toehold there. And then they moved into the suburban areas a few years later. Remember all that new construction going on because of cheap money...when that new home goes up, it is at the expense of someone's else home...usually the wildlife's. Cause and effect always happens and usually in ways we don't anticipate. TMT, any wildlife manager will tell you that the deer population in the Northeast, particularly, has expanded enormously SINCE the suburbanites have moved it. The whitetail deer is not a deep-woods animal. In this part of the country, ground laurel is their primary winter browse, in the woods. They thrive in burned-over and cut-over timber, where the new growth is low enough for them to reach, including twigs and shoots, in winter. Of course, a nice planting of domesticated woody shrubs serves the purpose even better. I've seen them walking down the streets of some towns in the western part of the state, munching on the shrubs. And the wild turkeys have moved back in here, too. We had to chase some off a soccer field last spring. g -- Ed Huntress |
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Hi Ed, I'm your neighbor. I live in Middletown, NJ.
On 9/11, I was in the WTC :-( "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message ups.com... You make a good point about the migration of animals in response to changing environment and food supplies. Remember Ireland and the potato famine? The Dust Bowl years during the Great Depression? Happens to us too. The reason why the deer are so plentiful is that their pedators have for the large part been eliminated and replaced by your and my automobiles. However, the reason that the deer are *out of control* is, first, the "hobby farms" that sprung up in west- and northwest Jersey 30 years ago, and then the low-density suburbanization of the region ever since. Houses are too close together for hunting in large tracts of that area. But they're not too close together for the deer. And the planting of lower shrubs and other garden plants has provided a cornucopia for them. The density of deer population in Princeton Township, NJ a few years ago was the highest in North America. The last time I looked, which was maybe ten years ago, a hunter could kill 11 deer per year in NJ if he got all the permits. And it's easy. A couple of my friends got all 11 every year. But the number of hunters is declining along with the range in which to hunt. The deer thrive in many times the area in which one can hunt. Based on the ever increasing numbers, drivers obviously are not performing the pedatory function as well as who they replaced. The predators left 200 years ago. Alpha predators don't do well in a place this densely populated. Deer, on the other hand, do just great. The bears and coyotes...well, when the food supply moves those animals who depend on it moves with it. If garbage was controlled as it should be, the bears will go away. It hasn't happened. Since the bears moved in, townships in the NW corner of the state have enacted controls. The bears are still there. They're just more aggressive. As for coyotes, if you know of a way to cut off their food supply, it will be very helpful. They seem to have established themselves in the natural balance. They are incredibly adaptable. They'll eat almost anything. There are quite a few of them in the state. I just mentioned the couple in Middlesex County, where I live, because I'm within cannon range of Manhatten. On 9/11, I watched the smoke from the WTC through my attic window. It won't be and they won't either. They did not just wake up one morning and think "Think I'll move to NJ" (they are smarter than that ;) ), their food supplies and habitat have changed to the point where they were forced to. The theory is that they moved in from PA one drought year in which you could wade across the Delaware River without getting your knees wet. The other idea is that they just walked in from New York, as part of a general expansion of the population into that part of New York State. If there was something that "forced" them in, no one I've heard of has mentioned it. A fair portion of that part of NJ is state land or just open woods, so they got a toehold there. And then they moved into the suburban areas a few years later. Remember all that new construction going on because of cheap money...when that new home goes up, it is at the expense of someone's else home...usually the wildlife's. Cause and effect always happens and usually in ways we don't anticipate. TMT, any wildlife manager will tell you that the deer population in the Northeast, particularly, has expanded enormously SINCE the suburbanites have moved it. The whitetail deer is not a deep-woods animal. In this part of the country, ground laurel is their primary winter browse, in the woods. They thrive in burned-over and cut-over timber, where the new growth is low enough for them to reach, including twigs and shoots, in winter. Of course, a nice planting of domesticated woody shrubs serves the purpose even better. I've seen them walking down the streets of some towns in the western part of the state, munching on the shrubs. And the wild turkeys have moved back in here, too. We had to chase some off a soccer field last spring. g -- Ed Huntress |
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"JB" wrote in message
... Hi Ed, I'm your neighbor. I live in Middletown, NJ. Yeah, that's not far at all. On 9/11, I was in the WTC :-( Yike! Did you work there, or did you just have the bad luck to be there that day? I was thinking of taking my family to Windows of the World before the weather got cold that fall. My neighbor worked on the 98th floor. That day, for the first time in months, he was late for work. His train stopped in the Hudson Tubes and then went back to Newark. His wife nearly went crazy until she found out he was OK. -- Ed Huntress |
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And who eats the coyotes?
Ever wonder how McDonalds keeps their costs down? ;) TMT |
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Good discussion Ed and I agree with what you cover...we are saying the
same thing. Times are good for deer...the pressure from predators (which include hunters also) has been reduced and their food supply has increased. Both factors mean increased population. Change either factor and you will see the populations drop. There is enormous pressure on wildlife habitats across the nation. The next time you drive down the road, take a good look at the construction going on. Most of it is on land that was not developed before. The wildlife has to move somewhere and that somewhere is your and my backyards. As for garbage, it is just an alternative (and excellent) food source. Remove the food source and the animal in question will move on or starve. Of course you would expect the bears to be more aggressive...you are messing with their three squares a day. Ever notice how people get cranky when they miss their scheduled feeding too. Bears or humans, same rules apply. Who will win in the end...humans since the bears don't have guns...yet;). Coyotes are just one of a number of animals that adapt very well to our civilized environment. Garbage control by humans is grossly inadequate. Remove this source of feeding and they will search for other sources. Animals will only stay if the food supply is plentiful and ongoing. As there are only so dogs, cats and rats available to them as alternative food choices, coyotes will move on once that fallback source of food supply is used up. Nature is the great equalizer, in time she levels the playing field for all concerned including man. TMT |
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"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
ups.com... And who eats the coyotes? Ever wonder how McDonalds keeps their costs down? ;) TMT The fine print does say "our burgers are all-mammal." A little lizard meat probably would help those fatties out. BTW, the state health people nailed a Chinese restaurant near Somerville a few years ago for serving venison without telling anyone about it. It appears that it was roadkill. Deer me. Considering that they were just a few miles north of the highest per-mile deer roadkill area in the country, I guess the temptation was just too much. -- Ed Huntress |
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