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  #1   Report Post  
Gunner
 
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Default Before you shoot cats....

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 19:49:59 +0000 (UTC), wrote:

Read about how some people feel about them. Word to the wise, don't
shoot the wrong person's cat.

Snipe

A cat owner in the UK wrote:

I am so terribly sorry to announce the passing of my precious
17-year-old feline friend, Tava.



Anyone who knew Tava or knows me well will be aware of how utterly
devastated I am by his massive loss. He was an extraordinary cat with
an amazing personality, a tremendous zest for life and the ability
naturally to charm anyone who crossed his path, for he adored everyone
he met and the new experiences they brought. He even enjoyed going to
the vet as he delighted in looking out the window on the journey there,
and he sat peacefully in the waiting room watching all the adventures
around him.

Tava enhanced my life when he blessed it with his arrival in October
1987. My mother rang to say that she was bringing me an adorable
bubbly chocolate Persian kitten who, despite having just been wrenched
from his mother, littermates, home and the world he knew by being
placed into a moving vehicle for the first time and driven off by a
stranger, just wouldn't stop playing. He was enchanted by every
experience, even at that young age, and never shed that youthful
outlook.

My darling boy was warm, loving and so beautifully behaved that he
instilled some discipline into my life, waking me each morning after I
slept through all the alarms, and encouraging me to go to bed at a
decent hour by leaping onto the bed and curling up on the pillow next
to me until I dropped off to sleep. Even though, once he became
arthritic, this meant that he would have to wake me again so that I
could put him gently on the floor before he padded off to his own bed,
it was still a pleasure that I relished, and there was nothing
comparable to Tava's gentle whisper of a meow directly into my ear.

When he lost his sight just after Christmas, his soft voice from the
floor still managed to rouse me every morning, and he quickly learned
his way around so ably that it was easy to forget he had any
disability. He remained fiercely independent whenever I tried to steer
him, but he would often quietly call out just to make sure that I was
there should he need me.

I needed him much, much more. Tava led me through the challenges of
university, the turmoil of a move to the UK when his magnetism
captivated those at the cattery, and numerous house moves where he was
the first to settle in. His vibrancy and devoted love uplifted me
during an awful marriage-and the easily resisted demands of my
ex-husband to get rid of the cats!-as well as the difficult divorce
and the more recent nearly unbearable death of my father. After that
dire event, Tava would regularly respond to my wailing by shaking off
his nap, rising and slowly leading his aging bones to enquire after my
well-being, thus instantly melting away a significant amount of my
pain.


The appalling sorrow I'm feeling now is the first bout of misery I
have had to suffer without my precious Tavisham here to look after me,
to push away all the scary demons and bring a smile to my face.
Fortunately, his memory is powerful.

He was an amazing trouper who surely stunned the vets each time they
diagnosed something worrying, including kidney disease, by defying any
poor prognosis. Unfortunately, this let me begin to believe he was
invincible.

Sadly, on Saturday night, he suffered an extremely violent seizure
and, although he recovered fairly impressively and welcomed his
favourite forehead-rubs, he began looking for a hiding place in the
wee hours. Bearing in mind that my last conversation with my father
had him asking if Tava would have somewhere to go to be alone like
outdoor cats did, I decided to leave my angelic furry boy in peace even
though I would have preferred to follow him everywhere, though I stayed
nearby. By Sunday morning, he was lying weak in the doorway of his
favourite room, purring all morning as I lay beside him to keep him
happy and warm. Sadly, his condition worsened, and although I can
barely face the huge loss now permeating our home, I know that if ever
a cat deserved to make it to Heaven, it would be my beloved Tava, and
I'm sure my father is looking after him now.

Tava is also survived by his 'stepson' Darryl, a 16-year-old
pewter Persian who is missing him terribly but looking after me
impressively well in the circumstances.



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  #5   Report Post  
Dave Hinz
 
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On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:03:39 -0600, Don Foreman wrote:
On 18 Mar 2005 17:54:27 GMT, Dave Hinz wrote:

I, for one, am shocked by this proposal. I had no idea that feral cats
_were_ any different than other pest animals, legally speaking.
I suppose someone is now going to tell me I shouldn't be shooting
the gophers as well?


Maybe in WS, not in MN!
http://www.rense.com/general63/cats.htm
http://www.startribune.com/stories/531/5294789.html


Sorry, maybe I was unclear. I consider a pest cat to be no more protected
than a pest gopher, a pest raccoon, or any other critter that is where
it doesn't belong.

If it comes down to songbirds or a feral cat, I'll protect the birds.



  #6   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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In article , Dave Hinz says...

If it comes down to songbirds or a feral cat, I'll protect the birds.


Oddly though the birds are just as feral as the cats.

Jim


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  #7   Report Post  
Dave Hinz
 
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On 18 Mar 2005 13:10:01 -0800, jim rozen wrote:
In article , Dave Hinz says...

If it comes down to songbirds or a feral cat, I'll protect the birds.


Oddly though the birds are just as feral as the cats.


Well, I think the birds were there first, weren't they?
  #9   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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In article , Dave Hinz says...

Oddly though the birds are just as feral as the cats.


Well, I think the birds were there first, weren't they?


Heh. Actually yes.

To put this in perspective, there's no reason not to
shoot either of those. How do folks feel about shooting
the birds? If it's OK to shoot the cats, then it's OK
to shoot birds.

Jim


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  #10   Report Post  
Jim Stewart
 
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jim rozen wrote:
In article , Dave Hinz says...

Oddly though the birds are just as feral as the cats.


Well, I think the birds were there first, weren't they?



Heh. Actually yes.

To put this in perspective, there's no reason not to
shoot either of those. How do folks feel about shooting
the birds? If it's OK to shoot the cats, then it's OK
to shoot birds.


Isn't there some common wisdom that
says the least cute animal loses in
a situation like this?




  #12   Report Post  
Ken Davey
 
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Gerald Miller wrote:
On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:47:51 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:03:39 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 19:49:59 +0000 (UTC), wrote:

Read about how some people feel about them. Word to the wise,
don't shoot the wrong person's cat.


There's a big hoo-ha going on in Wisconsin right now about shooting
cats.

In MN, feral cats have the same status as gophers and weasels: it's
OK to shoot them if they're a problem. Cats that are companions and
pets should be treated as such rather than allowed to roam at will
and lurk near bird feeders.

I prefer a CATapult to discourage ****tycats.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

Feral (domestic) cats are an 'introduced' predator in North America.
http://www.nationalreview.com/goldbe...0503160743.asp

Australia
http://www.deh.gov.au/biodiversity/i...cat/index.html
"There is clear evidence that feral cats have had a heavy impact on island
fauna. On Macquarie Island, for example, feral cats caused the extinction of
a subspecies of the red-fronted parakeet. On the mainland, they have
probably contributed to the extinction of many small to medium sized mammals
and ground-nesting birds in the arid zone, and seriously affected bilby,
mala and numbat populations. In some instances, feral cats have directly
threatened the success of recovery programs for endangered species.

Feral cats carry infectious diseases such as toxoplasmosis and
sarcosporidiosis, which can be transmitted to native animals, domestic
livestock and humans. If rabies were to be accidentally introduced into
Australia, there is a high risk that feral cats would act as carriers of the
disease."



For my money feral cats = target practice.



Regards.

Ken.









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  #13   Report Post  
Lew Hartswick
 
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jim rozen wrote:
In article , Dave Hinz says...


If it comes down to songbirds or a feral cat, I'll protect the birds.



Oddly though the birds are just as feral as the cats.

Jim



No Jim. Feral means a domestic animal gone wild, the birds are
naturally wild ie. never were domesticated.
...lew...
  #14   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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In article , Jim Stewart says...

To put this in perspective, there's no reason not to
shoot either of those. How do folks feel about shooting
the birds? If it's OK to shoot the cats, then it's OK
to shoot birds.


Isn't there some common wisdom that
says the least cute animal loses in
a situation like this?


For me it's sort of a non-issue. There are no feral
animals in my city, because there's an animal control
officer who makes sure of this. And I find no particular
reason to go around shooting birds either.

JIm


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  #15   Report Post  
Terry Collins
 
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Ken Davey wrote:

Australia
http://www.deh.gov.au/biodiversity/i...cat/index.html


Did you ever see that documentary on the ABC about the last group of
aborigines to be brought into civilisation in the 1980s? When the old
women were asked what they had survived on she answered "cats" and then
proceeded to demonostrate how to catch on in spinifex country. Basically
you just run them to ground (they are only good for a short sprint) then
club them and chuck them on a fire.

She basically confirmed the heavy impact that cats (all cats are feral
in AUS) had had on native wildlife that was traditional aboriginal food.


  #16   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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In article .net, Lew
Hartswick says...

Oddly though the birds are just as feral as the cats.


No Jim. Feral means a domestic animal gone wild, the birds are
naturally wild ie. never were domesticated.


It's a non-biological distinction. Sure the cat is felix
domesticus but probably most of the feral cats in question
were born in the wild and never were pets.

A biologist would not make the distinction. They're both
wild animals.

Jim


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  #17   Report Post  
Don Foreman
 
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On 18 Mar 2005 13:10:01 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Dave Hinz says...

If it comes down to songbirds or a feral cat, I'll protect the birds.


Oddly though the birds are just as feral as the cats.


Good point. Jim. Feral does mean wild, not necessarily
predatory.

Feral cats are predators and owls and raptors are not songbirds.
Songbirds eat seeds. Those who might enjoy the company of songbirds
should not be deprived of that by feral cats. Songbirds present no
nuisance to anyone that I can think of.

I have been known to shoot the tailfeathers off of a (protected and
gorgeous) downey woodpecker when it persisted in trying to drill my
eaves at dark-early hours. I did not want to injure the bird, but
Gawd what a racket he made! A bit of precison plucking from yonder
motivated him to go drill something else hours before I care to rise.

He's still around and I enjoy seeing him now and then. There's
plenty of room round here for both of us.

  #18   Report Post  
Larry Jaques
 
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On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 02:04:46 GMT, the inscrutable Lew Hartswick
spake:

jim rozen wrote:
Oddly though the birds are just as feral as the cats.


No Jim. Feral means a domestic animal gone wild,


Ah, the term "Feral Government" just took on new meaning.


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  #19   Report Post  
Larry Jaques
 
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On 18 Mar 2005 18:41:49 -0800, the inscrutable jim rozen
spake:

In article .net, Lew
Hartswick says...

Oddly though the birds are just as feral as the cats.


No Jim. Feral means a domestic animal gone wild, the birds are
naturally wild ie. never were domesticated.


It's a non-biological distinction. Sure the cat is felix
domesticus but probably most of the feral cats in question
were born in the wild and never were pets.

A biologist would not make the distinction. They're both
wild animals.


Cats and biologists?


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People will occasionally stumble over the truth, but
most of the time they'll pick themselves up and carry on.
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  #20   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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In article , Don Foreman says...

Feral cats are predators and owls and raptors are not songbirds.


No kidding. We found a huge ring of pigeon feathers in our
backyard. A hawk had killed the bird, ripped the feathers
off, and flown away with the carcass.

Raptors and scavengers all serve a purpose. We had a huge
number of crows that gathered in the trees in your yard,
they were having a convention I think.

And the scavenger vultures around here are *huge*. They're
as large as wild turkeys, amazing birds. You think there's
a german sheperd up in the tree by the roadside....

Jim


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  #21   Report Post  
doo
 
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Just an interesting note for this thread. I may be repeating myself,
as I think I've told this story once before.
When I lived in Pensylvania, I owned a really cool cat.
I worked graveyard shift, and when I left for work, I let the cat out
for the night. I'd come home in the morn, call for the cat (he'd come
running) and the cat would come in, eat, sleep, and hang around with me
'til I left for work again.
I often found a "gift" of his hunting prowess by the door, usually a
shrew or mole that met their demise by his claws.
One day it was a pile of red feathers. Had to have been a cardinal.
This is when my one neighbor mentioned how free roaming cats ruin the
songbird population.
Never mind the fact that the mole population declined, there were no
more skunks digging in the yards for grubs, or the squirrels seemed to
have moved on to easier-bird-feeder-raiding grounds. Never mind the
fact that my cat was indoors during the day, when the bird feeders were
mostly visited. Never mind the fact that I placed my bird feeders well
clear of anywhere that the cat could have used as an ambush point.
Never mind the fact that the red-tailed hawks in the area picked off
more songbirds.
No, sir... my cat was THE cause of the declining songbird population.

I guess I don't understand some people's reasoning. What if the pile
of feathers had been from an sparrow (an introduced species) or a
nasty, noisy starling, or an illigitimate ******* blue jay instead of a
pretty red cardinal? The cat would have been a hero, I suppose.

Anyhow, to end on a humorous note, I once found a "gift" by the door
in the morning consisting of a dead squirrel minus the head. I wondered
at the time where the head might have gone, possibly tucked into boss
squirrel's nest as he slept as a "godfather" type warning, or could it
have been used by the cat in some secret cat ritual of building a small
bonfire and dancing around it with painted-cat-body and squirrel head
on stick?
All I know is I didn't care for the cat to lick my face after
that...LOL

Ron

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~Roy~
 
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On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 02:12:22 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

snip

.. Songbirds present no
===nuisance to anyone that I can think of.



They are to me..I hate it when I have my windows open and those
critters start their dam singing and chirping.................Thats
what they make 12 ga 3 1/2" shells for, ..those pesky
songbirds......;-)

==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
  #23   Report Post  
Gerald Miller
 
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On 19 Mar 2005 07:51:38 -0800, "doo" wrote:

Just an interesting note for this thread. I may be repeating myself,
as I think I've told this story once before.
When I lived in Pensylvania, I owned a really cool cat.
I worked graveyard shift, and when I left for work, I let the cat out
for the night. I'd come home in the morn, call for the cat (he'd come
running) and the cat would come in, eat, sleep, and hang around with me
'til I left for work again.
I often found a "gift" of his hunting prowess by the door, usually a
shrew or mole that met their demise by his claws.
One day it was a pile of red feathers. Had to have been a cardinal.
This is when my one neighbor mentioned how free roaming cats ruin the
songbird population.
Never mind the fact that the mole population declined, there were no
more skunks digging in the yards for grubs, or the squirrels seemed to
have moved on to easier-bird-feeder-raiding grounds. Never mind the
fact that my cat was indoors during the day, when the bird feeders were
mostly visited. Never mind the fact that I placed my bird feeders well
clear of anywhere that the cat could have used as an ambush point.
Never mind the fact that the red-tailed hawks in the area picked off
more songbirds.
No, sir... my cat was THE cause of the declining songbird population.

I guess I don't understand some people's reasoning. What if the pile
of feathers had been from an sparrow (an introduced species) or a
nasty, noisy starling, or an illigitimate ******* blue jay instead of a
pretty red cardinal? The cat would have been a hero, I suppose.

Anyhow, to end on a humorous note, I once found a "gift" by the door
in the morning consisting of a dead squirrel minus the head. I wondered
at the time where the head might have gone, possibly tucked into boss
squirrel's nest as he slept as a "godfather" type warning, or could it
have been used by the cat in some secret cat ritual of building a small
bonfire and dancing around it with painted-cat-body and squirrel head
on stick?
All I know is I didn't care for the cat to lick my face after
that...LOL

Ron

I live in a side split wherein the upper level overhangs the level
below by about three feet, leaving a sheltered area where snow does
not accumulate, and, due to heat loss, this area never freezes. Every
spring I clean up the winter accumulation of cat **** from the three
neighbourhood free spirit house pets despite my numerous requests that
they take better care of them. Now I have a special ice cube tray that
provides excellent ammunition for my high powered "hard water" gun.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada
  #25   Report Post  
Eric R Snow
 
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On 19 Mar 2005 07:51:38 -0800, "doo" wrote:

Just an interesting note for this thread. I may be repeating myself,
as I think I've told this story once before.
When I lived in Pensylvania, I owned a really cool cat.
I worked graveyard shift, and when I left for work, I let the cat out
for the night. I'd come home in the morn, call for the cat (he'd come
running) and the cat would come in, eat, sleep, and hang around with me
'til I left for work again.
I often found a "gift" of his hunting prowess by the door, usually a
shrew or mole that met their demise by his claws.
One day it was a pile of red feathers. Had to have been a cardinal.
This is when my one neighbor mentioned how free roaming cats ruin the
songbird population.
Never mind the fact that the mole population declined, there were no
more skunks digging in the yards for grubs, or the squirrels seemed to
have moved on to easier-bird-feeder-raiding grounds. Never mind the
fact that my cat was indoors during the day, when the bird feeders were
mostly visited. Never mind the fact that I placed my bird feeders well
clear of anywhere that the cat could have used as an ambush point.
Never mind the fact that the red-tailed hawks in the area picked off
more songbirds.
No, sir... my cat was THE cause of the declining songbird population.

I guess I don't understand some people's reasoning. What if the pile
of feathers had been from an sparrow (an introduced species) or a
nasty, noisy starling, or an illigitimate ******* blue jay instead of a
pretty red cardinal? The cat would have been a hero, I suppose.

Anyhow, to end on a humorous note, I once found a "gift" by the door
in the morning consisting of a dead squirrel minus the head. I wondered
at the time where the head might have gone, possibly tucked into boss
squirrel's nest as he slept as a "godfather" type warning, or could it
have been used by the cat in some secret cat ritual of building a small
bonfire and dancing around it with painted-cat-body and squirrel head
on stick?
All I know is I didn't care for the cat to lick my face after
that...LOL

Ron

As far as heads go, the cat most likely ate it. All of it. I've
watched my cat chew several rat heads. He crunches them up and downs
'em, jaws, teeth, fur, all of it. Leaves me the rest. Thanks cat.
ERS


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Too_Many_Tools
 
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While I understand that both cats and dogs have impacted traditional
wildlife, one needs to bear in mind that it is the owners of these
animals who are at fault for allowing this to occur.

(1) because they allow the animal in question to roam and (2) because
they allow their pets to breed with abandon.

Let us also not forget to mention the impact human civilization has had
on wildlife numbers.

In my experience, people are far too quick to reach for their gun
without considering what the real source of the problem is.

Killing the creature in question does not solve the problem, just the
immediate symptom.

I have also noted that many of those that I have known that shoot
whatever crosses their property also seem to allow their own dogs and
cats to roam without regard for their neighbors. In one case many years
ago, a neighbor shot the cat of an older woman which had escaped from
her home. This neighbor had several black Labs that roamed the
neighborhood freely making a nusiance of themselves. One day the two
dogs did not come home. Years later I learned from her son that the old
lady had shot and buried the dogs in her garden in revenge for her
cat's untimely death.

TMT

  #27   Report Post  
Gerald Miller
 
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On 19 Mar 2005 21:37:11 -0800, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

While I understand that both cats and dogs have impacted traditional
wildlife, one needs to bear in mind that it is the owners of these
animals who are at fault for allowing this to occur.

(1) because they allow the animal in question to roam and (2) because
they allow their pets to breed with abandon.

Let us also not forget to mention the impact human civilization has had
on wildlife numbers.

In my experience, people are far too quick to reach for their gun
without considering what the real source of the problem is.

Killing the creature in question does not solve the problem, just the
immediate symptom.

I have also noted that many of those that I have known that shoot
whatever crosses their property also seem to allow their own dogs and
cats to roam without regard for their neighbors. In one case many years
ago, a neighbor shot the cat of an older woman which had escaped from
her home. This neighbor had several black Labs that roamed the
neighborhood freely making a nusiance of themselves. One day the two
dogs did not come home. Years later I learned from her son that the old
lady had shot and buried the dogs in her garden in revenge for her
cat's untimely death.

TMT

So in other words, I should forget about eliminating the immediate
problem with the ****ty cats and shoot the neighbours instead?
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada
  #28   Report Post  
Too_Many_Tools
 
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That is an option ;)...that is unless they have BIGGER guns ;)).

What I would do is live trap the cats and hand them over to the local
animal control department.

If the neighbors want their cats, they can pay the price...over and
over and over again to get them back.

Be prepared to be unpopular with the neighbors though...those who are
unable to act responsibily with their animals usually blame others for
their problems.

I take it that the neighbors know about your problem?

TMT

  #29   Report Post  
Dave Mundt
 
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Greetings and Salutations....

On 19 Mar 2005 22:40:15 -0800, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

That is an option ;)...that is unless they have BIGGER guns ;)).

What I would do is live trap the cats and hand them over to the local
animal control department.

If the neighbors want their cats, they can pay the price...over and
over and over again to get them back.

Be prepared to be unpopular with the neighbors though...those who are
unable to act responsibily with their animals usually blame others for
their problems.

I take it that the neighbors know about your problem?

TMT

I suppose this is more a sign of the increasing urbanization
of society than any sign of a lessened sense of responsibility of
pet owners.
While dogs may be domesticated, and, cats semi-so, they
have deep roots in the "wild animal" community, and, so the "natural"
thing for them is to move round in the great outdoors, hunt, build
territories, reproduce, and play. The problem is less with the
animals than it is with the attitudes of the humans that seem
to push them into cartoon parodies of their reality.
Years ago, before my area of Knoxpatch got too bloody overrun
with people, we kept a dog as well as a cat. They were mostly
"outside" creatures, only being let into the house at intervals. They
also roamed at will. It was not a problem because my neighbors were
both spread really far out, and, were not all that up-tight about
animals. We all knew each other's pets, and simply made friends with
them.
This was a great benefit to the area, actually, as it kept the
mole, rat, and rabbit problem down. Since most of us had gardens of
moderate size, this made a real difference.
Alas, over the past 30 yrs or so, the area has become infested
with rows of tacky, little apartment buildings, filled with too many
folks. While many of them may well be folks of good will and
friendliness, they are also very transient, and, it seems that a lot
of them have a real fear of nature (in general) and dogs/cats in
specific. This fear is a complicated, many-rooted thing, but, I think
that some of the blame for it lays on the back of the media - who seem
to delight in massive reporting of ANY incident involving a dog, and,
then continue to go on and on about how any dog has to be considered
a danger, and should be treated as such.
These factors, combined with the fact that the typical
apartment dwells has neither a clue WHO a given critter belongs to,
or, a desire to integrate enough WITH the community to find that out,
seems to mean that the automatic response is to call Animal Control
and let it become the state's problem.
So...because of this, I no longer keep a dog, and any cats
that come to live with me are inside only animals. Cats deal with
this fairly well, although they STILL want to go out and play in
the real world.
As for their impact on the songbird population...I suspect
that the problem THERE is more the level of visibility than actual
impact. There may be areas where the landscape is denuded of
songbirds due to a massive collection of feral cats...but if that
is so, it is probably because the songbirds were so bloody stupid
that having them gone raised the IQ of the gene pool by at least
a couple of points. In years past, my property has always been
a favorite hunting ground for neighborhood cats to use. I always
had a LOT of songbirds too, and, as a matter of fact, I recall
a number of times where I saw the songbirds pestering the cats
by deliberately flying down and perching on the ground or a low
branch, then, springing into the air and flying off when the
cats would try to catch them. If the songbirds were that concerned,
or frightened, why would they circle back and land NEAR the cats
(a known preditor) again?
Nature is a complicated and intricate process, and, alas
many humans are getting slightly too far away from the process...
which leads to irrational actions and general stupidity.
Now...as for roaming cats....once again...I suspect
that the main thing they are going after are rodents and moles,
both of which are small, and furry, and some folks consider
them to be cute (I don't). If that is a bad thing for you...
Let me know what your address is, I have a number of pesky
squirrels and mice that I would LOVE to find a good home for.
If you MUST do something "socially responsible", then, catch
the cats, have them neutered, THEN let them go back to their
owners.
Regards
Dave Mundt

  #30   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article , Dave Mundt says...

Nature is a complicated and intricate process, and, alas
many humans are getting slightly too far away from the process...
which leads to irrational actions and general stupidity.


Possibly the best discourse on this subject I've heard yet.

Though, one might say humans are getting to *close* to it!

We encounter a lot of the animals such as bears and deer
because we're encroaching on their habitat. I bet the
tacky apartment dwellers you mention do complain about
about how many deer they encounter with their cars. No
wonder, they went and built their houses where the deer
lived!

Our cats stay indoors. They like to eat mice, so we are
rodent-free in the house, even in the fall, when the field
mice come inside. But the neighbors cat does stalk the
bird feeder in the front yard - and as you say the birds
there are smart enough to keep him from making a kill.

Mean time between failure for most outdoor cats around
here is about six months - on account of the busy street
right in front of my house.

Living in the city here, pets are not allowed by law to
run wild, so there's no need to call the animal control
guy (except the time I trapped a bat in the attic and
wanted it tested for rabies) because that's what he does
*all* the time.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================


  #31   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Dave Mundt

says...

Nature is a complicated and intricate process, and, alas
many humans are getting slightly too far away from the process...
which leads to irrational actions and general stupidity.


Possibly the best discourse on this subject I've heard yet.

Though, one might say humans are getting to *close* to it!

We encounter a lot of the animals such as bears and deer
because we're encroaching on their habitat. I bet the
tacky apartment dwellers you mention do complain about
about how many deer they encounter with their cars. No
wonder, they went and built their houses where the deer
lived!


I didn't read Carl's message so I can't comment on what he said, but the
deer/bear/people relationships are somewhat different here in NJ. In 1900,
there were fewer than 100 deer in NJ. Now there are over 160,000 (winter
herd, minimum) and they have moved back in where the people already were. A
few years back, they ate $25,000 worth of new landscaping off the property
of my boss at the time, the VP of Wasino. g

In 1965, there were no bears in NJ. 'Hadn't been for over 100 years. Now we
have over 1,000, packed into the northwest corner but spreading out as we
speak, total number being debated. They came in on their own from NY and/or
PA. They, too, found they like moving in where the people had moved to in
the meantime. There are all those nice garbage cans around. And the little
kids look pretty tasty, too.

Oh, there were a couple of coyotes sighted here in Middlesex County last
year. They're also new immigrants.

The state is going to hell...

--
Ed Huntress


  #32   Report Post  
Too_Many_Tools
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Excellent posting Dave...if only I could write like that...you have my
admiration.

TMT

  #33   Report Post  
Too_Many_Tools
 
Posts: n/a
Default

You make a good point about the migration of animals in response to
changing environment and food supplies.

Remember Ireland and the potato famine? The Dust Bowl years during the
Great Depression? Happens to us too.

The reason why the deer are so plentiful is that their pedators have
for the large part been eliminated and replaced by your and my
automobiles. Based on the ever increasing numbers, drivers obviously
are not performing the pedatory function as well as who they replaced.

The bears and coyotes...well, when the food supply moves those animals
who depend on it moves with it. If garbage was controlled as it should
be, the bears will go away. It won't be and they won't either. They did
not just wake up one morning and think "Think I'll move to NJ" (they
are smarter than that ;) ), their food supplies and habitat have
changed to the point where they were forced to. Remember all that new
construction going on because of cheap money...when that new home goes
up, it is at the expense of someone's else home...usually the
wildlife's.

Cause and effect always happens and usually in ways we don't
anticipate.

Rabbits and Australia come to mind.

TMT

  #34   Report Post  
Emmo
 
Posts: n/a
Default

My neighborhood in Austin is plagued with coyotes; they have killed an
estimated hundred pets (cats and dogs) and are so bold that people are
getting nervous. So the city has started a coyote eradication program. So
the cats eat the birds, and the coyotes eat the cats...


  #35   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
ups.com...
You make a good point about the migration of animals in response to
changing environment and food supplies.

Remember Ireland and the potato famine? The Dust Bowl years during the
Great Depression? Happens to us too.

The reason why the deer are so plentiful is that their pedators have
for the large part been eliminated and replaced by your and my
automobiles.


However, the reason that the deer are *out of control* is, first, the "hobby
farms" that sprung up in west- and northwest Jersey 30 years ago, and then
the low-density suburbanization of the region ever since. Houses are too
close together for hunting in large tracts of that area. But they're not too
close together for the deer. And the planting of lower shrubs and other
garden plants has provided a cornucopia for them. The density of deer
population in Princeton Township, NJ a few years ago was the highest in
North America.

The last time I looked, which was maybe ten years ago, a hunter could kill
11 deer per year in NJ if he got all the permits. And it's easy. A couple of
my friends got all 11 every year. But the number of hunters is declining
along with the range in which to hunt. The deer thrive in many times the
area in which one can hunt.

Based on the ever increasing numbers, drivers obviously
are not performing the pedatory function as well as who they replaced.


The predators left 200 years ago. Alpha predators don't do well in a place
this densely populated. Deer, on the other hand, do just great.


The bears and coyotes...well, when the food supply moves those animals
who depend on it moves with it. If garbage was controlled as it should
be, the bears will go away.


It hasn't happened. Since the bears moved in, townships in the NW corner of
the state have enacted controls. The bears are still there. They're just
more aggressive.

As for coyotes, if you know of a way to cut off their food supply, it will
be very helpful. They seem to have established themselves in the natural
balance. They are incredibly adaptable. They'll eat almost anything.

There are quite a few of them in the state. I just mentioned the couple in
Middlesex County, where I live, because I'm within cannon range of
Manhatten. On 9/11, I watched the smoke from the WTC through my attic
window.

It won't be and they won't either. They did
not just wake up one morning and think "Think I'll move to NJ" (they
are smarter than that ;) ), their food supplies and habitat have
changed to the point where they were forced to.


The theory is that they moved in from PA one drought year in which you could
wade across the Delaware River without getting your knees wet. The other
idea is that they just walked in from New York, as part of a general
expansion of the population into that part of New York State.

If there was something that "forced" them in, no one I've heard of has
mentioned it. A fair portion of that part of NJ is state land or just open
woods, so they got a toehold there. And then they moved into the suburban
areas a few years later.

Remember all that new
construction going on because of cheap money...when that new home goes
up, it is at the expense of someone's else home...usually the
wildlife's.

Cause and effect always happens and usually in ways we don't
anticipate.


TMT, any wildlife manager will tell you that the deer population in the
Northeast, particularly, has expanded enormously SINCE the suburbanites have
moved it. The whitetail deer is not a deep-woods animal. In this part of the
country, ground laurel is their primary winter browse, in the woods.

They thrive in burned-over and cut-over timber, where the new growth is low
enough for them to reach, including twigs and shoots, in winter. Of course,
a nice planting of domesticated woody shrubs serves the purpose even better.
I've seen them walking down the streets of some towns in the western part of
the state, munching on the shrubs.

And the wild turkeys have moved back in here, too. We had to chase some off
a soccer field last spring. g

--
Ed Huntress




  #36   Report Post  
JB
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi Ed, I'm your neighbor. I live in Middletown, NJ.

On 9/11, I was in the WTC :-(

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
ups.com...
You make a good point about the migration of animals in response to
changing environment and food supplies.

Remember Ireland and the potato famine? The Dust Bowl years during the
Great Depression? Happens to us too.

The reason why the deer are so plentiful is that their pedators have
for the large part been eliminated and replaced by your and my
automobiles.


However, the reason that the deer are *out of control* is, first, the
"hobby
farms" that sprung up in west- and northwest Jersey 30 years ago, and then
the low-density suburbanization of the region ever since. Houses are too
close together for hunting in large tracts of that area. But they're not
too
close together for the deer. And the planting of lower shrubs and other
garden plants has provided a cornucopia for them. The density of deer
population in Princeton Township, NJ a few years ago was the highest in
North America.

The last time I looked, which was maybe ten years ago, a hunter could kill
11 deer per year in NJ if he got all the permits. And it's easy. A couple
of
my friends got all 11 every year. But the number of hunters is declining
along with the range in which to hunt. The deer thrive in many times the
area in which one can hunt.

Based on the ever increasing numbers, drivers obviously
are not performing the pedatory function as well as who they replaced.


The predators left 200 years ago. Alpha predators don't do well in a place
this densely populated. Deer, on the other hand, do just great.


The bears and coyotes...well, when the food supply moves those animals
who depend on it moves with it. If garbage was controlled as it should
be, the bears will go away.


It hasn't happened. Since the bears moved in, townships in the NW corner
of
the state have enacted controls. The bears are still there. They're just
more aggressive.

As for coyotes, if you know of a way to cut off their food supply, it will
be very helpful. They seem to have established themselves in the natural
balance. They are incredibly adaptable. They'll eat almost anything.

There are quite a few of them in the state. I just mentioned the couple in
Middlesex County, where I live, because I'm within cannon range of
Manhatten. On 9/11, I watched the smoke from the WTC through my attic
window.

It won't be and they won't either. They did
not just wake up one morning and think "Think I'll move to NJ" (they
are smarter than that ;) ), their food supplies and habitat have
changed to the point where they were forced to.


The theory is that they moved in from PA one drought year in which you
could
wade across the Delaware River without getting your knees wet. The other
idea is that they just walked in from New York, as part of a general
expansion of the population into that part of New York State.

If there was something that "forced" them in, no one I've heard of has
mentioned it. A fair portion of that part of NJ is state land or just open
woods, so they got a toehold there. And then they moved into the suburban
areas a few years later.

Remember all that new
construction going on because of cheap money...when that new home goes
up, it is at the expense of someone's else home...usually the
wildlife's.

Cause and effect always happens and usually in ways we don't
anticipate.


TMT, any wildlife manager will tell you that the deer population in the
Northeast, particularly, has expanded enormously SINCE the suburbanites
have
moved it. The whitetail deer is not a deep-woods animal. In this part of
the
country, ground laurel is their primary winter browse, in the woods.

They thrive in burned-over and cut-over timber, where the new growth is
low
enough for them to reach, including twigs and shoots, in winter. Of
course,
a nice planting of domesticated woody shrubs serves the purpose even
better.
I've seen them walking down the streets of some towns in the western part
of
the state, munching on the shrubs.

And the wild turkeys have moved back in here, too. We had to chase some
off
a soccer field last spring. g

--
Ed Huntress




  #37   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"JB" wrote in message
...
Hi Ed, I'm your neighbor. I live in Middletown, NJ.


Yeah, that's not far at all.


On 9/11, I was in the WTC :-(


Yike! Did you work there, or did you just have the bad luck to be there that
day? I was thinking of taking my family to Windows of the World before the
weather got cold that fall.

My neighbor worked on the 98th floor. That day, for the first time in
months, he was late for work. His train stopped in the Hudson Tubes and then
went back to Newark. His wife nearly went crazy until she found out he was
OK.

--
Ed Huntress


  #38   Report Post  
Too_Many_Tools
 
Posts: n/a
Default

And who eats the coyotes?

Ever wonder how McDonalds keeps their costs down? ;)

TMT

  #39   Report Post  
Too_Many_Tools
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Good discussion Ed and I agree with what you cover...we are saying the
same thing.

Times are good for deer...the pressure from predators (which include
hunters also) has been reduced and their food supply has increased.
Both factors mean increased population. Change either factor and you
will see the populations drop.

There is enormous pressure on wildlife habitats across the nation. The
next time you drive down the road, take a good look at the construction
going on. Most of it is on land that was not developed before. The
wildlife has to move somewhere and that somewhere is your and my
backyards.

As for garbage, it is just an alternative (and excellent) food source.
Remove the food source and the animal in question will move on or
starve. Of course you would expect the bears to be more
aggressive...you are messing with their three squares a day. Ever
notice how people get cranky when they miss their scheduled feeding
too. Bears or humans, same rules apply. Who will win in the
end...humans since the bears don't have guns...yet;).

Coyotes are just one of a number of animals that adapt very well to our
civilized environment. Garbage control by humans is grossly inadequate.
Remove this source of feeding and they will search for other sources.
Animals will only stay if the food supply is plentiful and ongoing. As
there are only so dogs, cats and rats available to them as alternative
food choices, coyotes will move on once that fallback source of food
supply is used up.

Nature is the great equalizer, in time she levels the playing field for
all concerned including man.

TMT

  #40   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
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Default

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
ups.com...
And who eats the coyotes?

Ever wonder how McDonalds keeps their costs down? ;)

TMT


The fine print does say "our burgers are all-mammal." A little lizard meat
probably would help those fatties out.

BTW, the state health people nailed a Chinese restaurant near Somerville a
few years ago for serving venison without telling anyone about it. It
appears that it was roadkill. Deer me.

Considering that they were just a few miles north of the highest per-mile
deer roadkill area in the country, I guess the temptation was just too much.

--
Ed Huntress


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