Well, after getting a$3000 bid for a hood for an exterior fireplace, I
decided to take a whack at it. Take a look at my project so far:

http://home.earthlink.net/~madur0/fireplacehood.jpg

I am scratching my head as to how to solder the joints. This is the
first time I've ever done this and soldering the joints have me
perplexed. I don't want to mess up my work since everything so far
has gone so smooth. I don't want to wreck it with a bad soldering
job. I've soldered before but nothing this big before.

First, what kinda soldering iron should I use or do I use a torch. If
I use a torch flame, will it not discolor the fire place hood? If I
use a soldering iron, what kinda wattage should the iron have?
Lastly, how do I keep the solder from spilling out and over the joints
and messing up my progect?

Thanx for any helpful advice.

"john" wrote in message
...
Well, after getting a$3000 bid for a hood for an exterior fireplace, I
decided to take a whack at it. Take a look at my project so far:

http://home.earthlink.net/~madur0/fireplacehood.jpg

I am scratching my head as to how to solder the joints. This is the
first time I've ever done this and soldering the joints have me
perplexed. I don't want to mess up my work since everything so far
has gone so smooth. I don't want to wreck it with a bad soldering
job. I've soldered before but nothing this big before.

First, what kinda soldering iron should I use or do I use a torch. If
I use a torch flame, will it not discolor the fire place hood? If I
use a soldering iron, what kinda wattage should the iron have?
Lastly, how do I keep the solder from spilling out and over the joints
and messing up my progect?

Thanx for any helpful advice.


I'm no expert, but--

Coppersmiths use an iron w/ about a 1# copper head to hold boucou heat,
heated in an oven of sorts, not electrically, altho you could, in principle
do this electrically as well--just never have seen it.

There is made an *anti-flux*, that I've actually used in very small
quantities for electrical board wiring, many years ago, to keep solder from
unwanted spots.. Don't know if this would apply here.

Next, I suspect stuff like this is very difficult to solder out of position,
and w/o the proper edges/folds made in the metal to sort of catch/sequester
the solder--all pretty geometrical. Altho in principle, any two overlapping
surfaces can be soldered--just some more neatly than others. So soldering
this on a bench would help tremendously, except the final installation
portion.

Gotta use paste flux!!!! On already-clean copper.

You could also *braze* this, which would actually be better/stronger/less
risk of "mess". But requires a higher heat. I think the heat discoloration
can be steel-wooled out, but you should test this on scrap copper. Also,
there are different temp brazing rods, I believe, some quite a bit "softer"
than others.

Could also use copper rivets! They can be made to look really gnarly!

Did I just say gnarly?????????

Also, some solders are better/easier to use than others.

Also, note that soldering ("sweating") copper tubing/pipe for plumbing is a
bit of a different ball game, because there the joints are so neat/tight
that capillary action greatly aids the soldering AND fluxing process. Your
fit up is not likely to be near so tight, so you don't benefit from this,
which indirectly mean you also need a lot more heat than in sweating tubing.

Apropos of plumbing, there is a new kind of sweat fitting w/ the solder
BUILT IN! So you don't have to use your own solder! Perty neat! Along
those lines, you could pre-flux the joints, lay a wire of solder *in/along*
the joint, and heat away, perhaps lightly w/ a torch. I think I've seen this
done in one context or another. Again, some joint types are more amenable to
this than others.

I think moveable clamping, and lots of it, to keep the joints tight, would
also be a big help.

Again, I'm no expert, fooled around a little, know enough to know I would
hesitate doing this myself, but, if the joints were "right" and the
positioning OK, I might take a stab at it, after testing/practicing on *a
lot* of copper.
Stained glass people are pretty good at this, if you want to farm it out and
can't find a coppersmith.

You may want to run this by some of the old-timers on the welding ng,
sci.engr.joining.welding. or maybe find a ng/forum devoted to
coppersmithing.
HTH.
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

The Anti-Flux - is rubber.

My dad taught me years ago on big Black Beauty irons :

1. start the heat - takes a long time.
2. file the faces flat. Solder and flux absorb copper and make holes.
3. on all faces except the one (or more if expert) to be used rub on the
heal of your engineering boots. That puts a (stinky at first) rubber oxide...
on the faces. Solder rolls off nicely.
4. flux the face when the iron is hot (with a brush naturally)
5. Tin the face with the solder type using. I assume you are using high lead.
(Tin will weaken under acid rain or by not washing off the flux)

Martin [ why not TIG it ? - or get it welded together ? - or contract a sheet metal shop to solder]

--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

"john" wrote in message
...
Well, after getting a$3000 bid for a hood for an exterior fireplace, I
decided to take a whack at it. Take a look at my project so far:

http://home.earthlink.net/~madur0/fireplacehood.jpg

I am scratching my head as to how to solder the joints. This is the
first time I've ever done this and soldering the joints have me
perplexed. I don't want to mess up my work since everything so far
has gone so smooth. I don't want to wreck it with a bad soldering
job. I've soldered before but nothing this big before.

First, what kinda soldering iron should I use or do I use a torch. If
I use a torch flame, will it not discolor the fire place hood?

Use an oxy-acetylene torch set for a slightly reducing flame. Use a good
self-fluxing-on-copper silver solder like Forney's Sil-Flo.

You will get discoloration which you can remove by polishing aftwards. If
you use Sil-Flo and are careful with the amounts, it will NOT spill out of
the joint. Rather, it will give a perfectly wetted sweat joint that looks
for all the world as if it were welded with the self-same metal.

LLoyd

I agree with Lloyd. The copper will conduct the heat away from where
you want in. So my guess is that you will never get it hot enough with
an iron or a propane torch. Since you are asking for advice, I am
guessing that you don't have an oxy-acet torch. So unless you
anticipate doing a lot more things like this, I would take it to a
welding shop and tell them you want it done with Sil-fos. They may do
it with a oxy-acet torch or a Tig welder. You will be doing a lot of
polishing afterwards, so invest in a hand held buffer.

Dan


Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:


Use an oxy-acetylene torch set for a slightly reducing flame. Use a
good
self-fluxing-on-copper silver solder like Forney's Sil-Flo.

You will get discoloration which you can remove by polishing
aftwards. If
you use Sil-Flo and are careful with the amounts, it will NOT spill
out of
the joint. Rather, it will give a perfectly wetted sweat joint that
looks
for all the world as if it were welded with the self-same metal.

LLoyd

In article .com,
says...

I agree with Lloyd. The copper will conduct the heat away from where
you want in. So my guess is that you will never get it hot enough with
an iron or a propane torch. Since you are asking for advice, I am
guessing that you don't have an oxy-acet torch. So unless you
anticipate doing a lot more things like this, I would take it to a
welding shop and tell them you want it done with Sil-fos. They may do
it with a oxy-acet torch or a Tig welder. You will be doing a lot of
polishing afterwards, so invest in a hand held buffer.

Or, simply design so that the copper can be tig-welded
directly, no need for braze!

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:23:46 GMT, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
wrote:


Use an oxy-acetylene torch set for a slightly reducing flame. Use a good
self-fluxing-on-copper silver solder like Forney's Sil-Flo.

You will get discoloration which you can remove by polishing aftwards. If
you use Sil-Flo and are careful with the amounts, it will NOT spill out of
the joint. Rather, it will give a perfectly wetted sweat joint that looks
for all the world as if it were welded with the self-same metal.

LLoyd


Lloyd, thanx for the great info!

One question about the oxy torch: If I were to set the oxy torch too high, is
there a possibility that I will melt the copper? Also, how much will the oxy
torch cost me?

"Boll Weevil" wrote in message
...

One question about the oxy torch: If I were to set the oxy torch too high,
is
there a possibility that I will melt the copper? Also, how much will the
oxy
torch cost me?

If you don't already have one, or need one for other metal heating and
cutting, it'll be too expensive; the basic Victor "FirePower" setup is about
$200, plus the cost of the bottles. And the FirePower is adequate for small
work, but it's not a very big torch. (would work fine for your project --
more than enough)

One issue that hasn't been raised about soft soldering -- even at lower
temperatures - say 250F - many soft solders will slowly weaken and crack.
It doesn't have to melt to let go. Braze, silver solder, or rivet.

Or... you could get really brave and do full, double-lapped, hammered seams!
G

LLoyd

Want to do it the easy way? Go to Eastwoods site and buy a tin of
"tinning butter" ( http://snipurl.com/cyq5 ) it is fine tin dust mixed
with flux. It can be brushed on while you heat the area with a torch
with a fan tip on it. You just tin the edges of the joints first. Then
clamp the joint and add just a bit of solder while you heat it. The
solder will flow and stop when it hits the edge of the tinned area.

Or there is the mechanical method. Use copper rivets with a thin layer
of high temp sealer to prevent leaks.

--
Steve Williams

"john" wrote in message
...
Well, after getting a$3000 bid for a hood for an exterior fireplace, I
decided to take a whack at it. Take a look at my project so far:

http://home.earthlink.net/~madur0/fireplacehood.jpg

I am scratching my head as to how to solder the joints. This is the
first time I've ever done this and soldering the joints have me
perplexed. I don't want to mess up my work since everything so far
has gone so smooth. I don't want to wreck it with a bad soldering
job. I've soldered before but nothing this big before.

First, what kinda soldering iron should I use or do I use a torch. If
I use a torch flame, will it not discolor the fire place hood? If I
use a soldering iron, what kinda wattage should the iron have?
Lastly, how do I keep the solder from spilling out and over the joints
and messing up my progect?

Thanx for any helpful advice.



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:56:18 -0500, "Steve W." wrote:

Want to do it the easy way? Go to Eastwoods site and buy a tin of
"tinning butter" ( http://snipurl.com/cyq5 ) it is fine tin dust mixed
with flux. It can be brushed on while you heat the area with a torch
with a fan tip on it. You just tin the edges of the joints first. Then
clamp the joint and add just a bit of solder while you heat it. The
solder will flow and stop when it hits the edge of the tinned area.

Or there is the mechanical method. Use copper rivets with a thin layer
of high temp sealer to prevent leaks.

Thanx for the great info, Steve!!

Hi,

2 points come to my mind :

- Low melting point solder alloy won't withstand high temperature of
the fireplace and joints WILL melt open. Rivets or even brazing are
better solutions.

- Polished copper will be hard to keep shiny clean. Unless your never
use the fireplace (!) and you put a protective finish over it (some
kind of clear coating). Combined effets of rain + heat will rapidly
turn shiny copper to brownish/greenish stuff.


Frank

john wrote:
Well, after getting a$3000 bid for a hood for an exterior fireplace,
I
decided to take a whack at it. Take a look at my project so far:

http://home.earthlink.net/~madur0/fireplacehood.jpg

I am scratching my head as to how to solder the joints. This is the
first time I've ever done this and soldering the joints have me
perplexed. I don't want to mess up my work since everything so far
has gone so smooth. I don't want to wreck it with a bad soldering
job. I've soldered before but nothing this big before.

First, what kinda soldering iron should I use or do I use a torch.
If
I use a torch flame, will it not discolor the fire place hood? If I
use a soldering iron, what kinda wattage should the iron have?
Lastly, how do I keep the solder from spilling out and over the
joints
and messing up my progect?

Thanx for any helpful advice.

On 22 Feb 2005 08:15:39 -0800, wrote:

Hi,

2 points come to my mind :

- Low melting point solder alloy won't withstand high temperature of
the fireplace and joints WILL melt open. Rivets or even brazing are
better solutions.

- Polished copper will be hard to keep shiny clean. Unless your never
use the fireplace (!) and you put a protective finish over it (some
kind of clear coating). Combined effets of rain + heat will rapidly
turn shiny copper to brownish/greenish stuff.

It's for outdoors so I am anticipating that the hood will turn green over
time... which I love. Also, I don't think the hood will get that hot since the
actual fire will be about four feet below the hood. Take a look:

http://home.earthlink.net/~madur0/outdoorfireplace.jpg

Boll Weevil wrote:
snipped

It's for outdoors so I am anticipating that the hood will turn green over
time... which I love.

You can speed up that antiquing by swabing the surface with "tinner's
fluid", i.e. "Dunton's acid soldering flux" or similar. Then leave it
outdoors.

I did that to a copper roof I made for a bird feeder a few years ago and
got a good headstart on the patina that way.

Jeff
--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

I'm not sure I understand what an exterior fireplace is. The assembly joints
probably won't need to be air/watertight such as a sink basin would need to
be.
I would think that a mechanical fastening of parts would be a very good
idea, whether it be rivets or crimped seams. If the sections weren't cut for
integral crimped seams, it may be too late to consider that method, but
maybe not.
If there are seams that lap together = a U-shaped (folded over strip) could
be added and crimped tightly.

Using soft solder only for assembly could be a big problem if the hood gets
hot.. at about 400 F it might come apart (as copper is heavy).
Visible soldering at the seams would look attractive for some folks tastes,
it's up to you.

In the good 'ol days, a pair of large irons would sometimes be used.. using
a blowtorch to heat the second one, while using the hot one, and alternating
as it cooled.
An electric iron would need to be a high wattage unit with significant mass
at the tip. A 200W Weller soldering gun isn't gonna be adequate.

I would recommend lots of practice pieces if you decide to use a torch. I
suppose you understand that the copper won't stay flashy/pretty after it's
exposed to weather and gasses from the fire.

WB
.................

"john" wrote in message
...
Well, after getting a$3000 bid for a hood for an exterior fireplace, I
decided to take a whack at it. Take a look at my project so far:

http://home.earthlink.net/~madur0/fireplacehood.jpg

I am scratching my head as to how to solder the joints. This is the
first time I've ever done this and soldering the joints have me
perplexed. I don't want to mess up my work since everything so far
has gone so smooth. I don't want to wreck it with a bad soldering
job. I've soldered before but nothing this big before.

First, what kinda soldering iron should I use or do I use a torch. If
I use a torch flame, will it not discolor the fire place hood? If I
use a soldering iron, what kinda wattage should the iron have?
Lastly, how do I keep the solder from spilling out and over the joints
and messing up my progect?

Thanx for any helpful advice.




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http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
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On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:43:46 -0500, "Wild Bill" wrote:

I'm not sure I understand what an exterior fireplace is. The assembly joints
probably won't need to be air/watertight such as a sink basin would need to
be.

This is my out door fireplace. It's in my backyard. I built it last fall. The
copper hood is being made to cap it:

http://home.earthlink.net/~madur0/outdoorfireplace.jpg

john wrote:

snipped

Lastly, how do I keep the solder from spilling out and over the joints
and messing up my progect?



Sounds like that could be solved by using a "tinker's dam" which IIRC
was some kind of a muddy paste applied to the metal to keep solder from
flowing where it wasn't wanted.

After the tinker was done soldering the paste was dried out and of so
little value it was just discarded.

Hence the expression, "Not worth a tinker's dam".

There are high tech equivalents available today, like the solder masking
stuff used on printed circuit boards so the solder only wets where it's
needed, and not all along every copper trace.

Good luck with your project, and if you do use solder and a little gets
where it's not wanted, carefull scraping with a sharp edged tool
followed by a little steel wooling will get rid of it.

HTH,

Jeff


--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

Jeff Wisnia wrote:
john wrote:

snipped

Lastly, how do I keep the solder from spilling out and over the joints
and messing up my progect?



Sounds like that could be solved by using a "tinker's dam" which IIRC
was some kind of a muddy paste applied to the metal to keep solder from
flowing where it wasn't wanted.

After the tinker was done soldering the paste was dried out and of so
little value it was just discarded.

Hence the expression, "Not worth a tinker's dam".

There are high tech equivalents available today, like the solder masking
stuff used on printed circuit boards so the solder only wets where it's
needed, and not all along every copper trace.

Good luck with your project, and if you do use solder and a little gets
where it's not wanted, carefull scraping with a sharp edged tool
followed by a little steel wooling will get rid of it.

HTH,

Jeff


Actually any kind of dirt will keep solder from adhering. Jewelers use
yellow ocher (clay) with silver solder.

--RC

You don't want to solder the hood with regular solder as it will get too hot
and evenually melt the solder.. Use silver braze instead to do the work or
a solder with at least 10% silver in it. It will stay with any heat other
than the setting of hot coals on the copper.
Better yet as others have said, is to rivet the pieces together. Copper
rivets can be had at www.smallparts.com for one place. Put the head on
theoutside and they will look very nice if you drill evenly across the line.
Since you're doing an outside hood, you don't need to have perfect seals
between the pieces.
As for soldering, a propane or MAPP torch will get the metal hot enough to
suck the solder into the gaps. Lavishly coat the joint with rosin paste
(non-corrosive is prefered) after sanding the joints so that they are clean.
Tin the metal and then assemble and apply the heat to the joint so that the
exposed edge to the outside is the cooler side of the joint and apply solder
and watch it such into the joint. Finish by polishing the copper as it will
be discollered from the work.
When you use the torch, heat an area rather than just the one little spot so
that the heat doesn't move as fast and once you get going, don't slow down
until the work is done.

--
Why isn't there an Ozone Hole at the NORTH Pole?

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 00:53:02 -0600, john wrote:

Well, after getting a$3000 bid for a hood for an exterior fireplace, I
decided to take a whack at it. Take a look at my project so far:

http://home.earthlink.net/~madur0/fireplacehood.jpg

I am scratching my head as to how to solder the joints. This is the
first time I've ever done this and soldering the joints have me
perplexed. I don't want to mess up my work since everything so far
has gone so smooth. I don't want to wreck it with a bad soldering
job. I've soldered before but nothing this big before.

First, what kinda soldering iron should I use or do I use a torch. If
I use a torch flame, will it not discolor the fire place hood? If I
use a soldering iron, what kinda wattage should the iron have?
Lastly, how do I keep the solder from spilling out and over the joints
and messing up my progect?

Thanx for any helpful advice.

A hunk of copper that huge is a humongous heat sink. Not only are you
going to have trouble getting it hot enough to solder, you are going
to risk warping the hell out of that nice piece of sheet metal work.

Think rivets, rivets, rivets. It is your only sensible solution.

Be sure you drill the holes in a nice, straight line. Otherwise, the
rivet job will look like hell.

Someone else can chime in, here, but I'd be wary of what kind of
sequence to use. Be sure to keep all your drilled holes in register,
one piece in relation to the other.

My 2¢

Orrin

I do all the copper work for a sheet metal shop and have for quite a while
now. We have soldered much larger items than this. What weight is the
copper used? 16 or 20 ounce copper can be soldered with an electric iron.
It gives a more controlled heat preventing running but takes a lot longer to
do it. Seivert makes a nice propane constant heat iron but its a bit spendy
for the hobbiest. At home I like a small propane torch thats attached to a
bottle by a hose. It has an adjustable flame and is really handy. If you
are satisfied with the joints on the top and its possible then flip it
upside down and solder the bottom side. I prefer to use Johnson brand flux
for copper and 50/50 solder, sand the solder if it's exposed and not as
smooth as you'd like then copper plate the solder. All the things I've
listed here, except the seivert torch, can be found at most stained glass
supply stores. Most places will be happy to go over the chemicals and
solder with you. I built a copper cover for our range hood in the kitchen.
My wife used a mix of patina, acid, and water to change the colors then
clear coated it. Because it wasn't going to stay shiny I used copper
rivets. If you'd like pics of it or other soldered items just drop me an
email. Good luck

--

joe
98 TJ
__(OIIIIIO)__




"Orrin Iseminger" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 00:53:02 -0600, john wrote:

Well, after getting a$3000 bid for a hood for an exterior fireplace, I
decided to take a whack at it. Take a look at my project so far:

http://home.earthlink.net/~madur0/fireplacehood.jpg

I am scratching my head as to how to solder the joints. This is the
first time I've ever done this and soldering the joints have me
perplexed. I don't want to mess up my work since everything so far
has gone so smooth. I don't want to wreck it with a bad soldering
job. I've soldered before but nothing this big before.

First, what kinda soldering iron should I use or do I use a torch. If
I use a torch flame, will it not discolor the fire place hood? If I
use a soldering iron, what kinda wattage should the iron have?
Lastly, how do I keep the solder from spilling out and over the joints
and messing up my progect?

Thanx for any helpful advice.

A hunk of copper that huge is a humongous heat sink. Not only are you
going to have trouble getting it hot enough to solder, you are going
to risk warping the hell out of that nice piece of sheet metal work.

Think rivets, rivets, rivets. It is your only sensible solution.

Be sure you drill the holes in a nice, straight line. Otherwise, the
rivet job will look like hell.

Someone else can chime in, here, but I'd be wary of what kind of
sequence to use. Be sure to keep all your drilled holes in register,
one piece in relation to the other.

My 2¢

Orrin

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 22:36:17 -0800, "joey" wrote:

I do all the copper work for a sheet metal shop and have for quite a while
now. We have soldered much larger items than this. What weight is the
copper used? 16 or 20 ounce copper can be soldered with an electric iron.
It gives a more controlled heat preventing running but takes a lot longer to
do it. Seivert makes a nice propane constant heat iron but its a bit spendy
for the hobbiest. At home I like a small propane torch thats attached to a
bottle by a hose. It has an adjustable flame and is really handy. If you
are satisfied with the joints on the top and its possible then flip it
upside down and solder the bottom side. I prefer to use Johnson brand flux
for copper and 50/50 solder, sand the solder if it's exposed and not as
smooth as you'd like then copper plate the solder. All the things I've
listed here, except the seivert torch, can be found at most stained glass
supply stores. Most places will be happy to go over the chemicals and
solder with you. I built a copper cover for our range hood in the kitchen.
My wife used a mix of patina, acid, and water to change the colors then
clear coated it. Because it wasn't going to stay shiny I used copper
rivets. If you'd like pics of it or other soldered items just drop me an
email. Good luck

Hey, everyone... I give my sincere THANK YOU for all your great advice..
everyone of them!! I'll provide more pics as my project goes along.

Joey, thanx for your excellent insights! I'd LOVE to see your project as I
think other people would in this group. Please post them!

The copper I used is 16 ounce copper which seems more than adequate for my
project. I created internal flaps which were crimped together so taking the
thing apart again at this time will be unlikely unless someone held a gun to my
head!! So, drilling holes for rivets is probably out of the question as much as
I like the idea. I'll take some photos of my internal joins so you can see.

I just bought an Esico 500 Watt Soldering Iron from Ebay for little over $40.00.
I couldn't pass up the deal.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3874870247

Do you think this will suffice. If you agree, I'd like to try the electric
soldering iron first before I try the flare thrower method. Also, I found a
place to buy a "heat damn". Some sort of putty like material which will isolate
the heat in sheat metal. This is instead of the wet wash cloth.