10,000 years warm
100,000 years ice
10,000 years warm
100,000 years ice
10,000 years warm
What's next? Global Warming?

It would be great if Global Warming were more than liberal orthodoxy,
but it isn't.
We will get another ice age, and the earth will support a tiny fraction
of today's population.

--
Be careful what you pray for, it can happen.

stanley baer wrote:

I know that global warming is not talked about too much in the US, but
you guys seem like a pretty well informed bunch and I am curious what
your ideas would be concerning the following.

I have done a bit of reading on global warming and its possible
effects. Even if there is only a 30% chance that what the scientists
predict actually happens, I would like to be prepared. As I understand
it, the effects of global warming will not really hit hard for the
next 15-20 years, but after that things may get ugly (large scale
droughts, change in ocean currents, rising sea levels etc.)

What would you guys do if you were 35 years old, had a family and
wanted to protect them from the possible chaos that these changes will
cause due to food shortages, economic depression, mass migration from
hard hit parts of the globe and all the social unrest that will
accompany all this.

I live near Toronto in Canada, I have thought about buying farm land
in the area. Though fertile and unlikely to suffer from drought, it
is relatively expensive due to the high population density. I am also
afraid that if things got bad enough, trying to be self sufficient in
a highly populated area would be next to impossible as the starving
masses from the nearby cities would constanly be looting your land.

My friends think I am a bit of a nutcase when I mention what is on my
mind and either dismiss me as being overly pessimistic or are resigned
to going down with a sinking ship. I feel better if I am getting
prepared. What strategies would you guys suggest.

ok..if you are serious and can stand all the flack about "there's no
such thing as global warming"......

1) the Mormons have always been really into having at least a 1 years
supply of foodstuffs for your family. There's a lot of information that
may be available from them about preserving, what to store, and other
ideas. There are several companies in Utah that specialize in these
kinds of stored foods. I'm not sure what you would search on but you
may find links that aren't too preachy with a careful google search.

2) older book "5 acres and independance" wasn't too bad and may give you
ideas

3) Survivalist newsgroup may be of some help (see note about mormons
being preachy above and double the warning)

4) stop worrying and don't plan for global warming. instead plan for
any kind of breakdown in the current system. It's far more likely to
have some sort of economic meltdown due to bad policies than it is to
have the global warming thing leaving you unprepared.

5) Company called "real goods" (or is it "realgoods") is on the web and
has some stuff about living off grid.

Just my 2 cents to blow a minute


Koz

It's not going to happen that fast. The media people get a little hysterical
about it. I'm a believer, but it's not going to be happening on anything
like a short time scale. You and your family and their children and THEIR
children, to many generations, will be long dead before there are any
serious effects, and even then the effects will be gradual and people will
have plenty of time to react to the changes. People with low-bank
waterfronts will notice that the seawalls that their grandparents built need
to be built up a foot or so, for example, and a couple of generations later
the same thing will happen again.

So find something more immediate to worry about. Like whether that monkey in
Washington ruins Social Security before you can receive any benefits from
it, or whether your job gets offshored. You know, stuff like that, that has
more immediate economic effects.

Tom Dacon


"stanley baer" wrote in message
...
I know that global warming is not talked about too much in the US, but you
guys seem like a pretty well informed bunch and I am curious what your
ideas would be concerning the following.

I have done a bit of reading on global warming and its possible effects.
Even if there is only a 30% chance that what the scientists predict
actually happens, I would like to be prepared. As I understand it, the
effects of global warming will not really hit hard for the next 15-20
years, but after that things may get ugly (large scale droughts, change in
ocean currents, rising sea levels etc.)

What would you guys do if you were 35 years old, had a family and wanted
to protect them from the possible chaos that these changes will cause due
to food shortages, economic depression, mass migration from hard hit parts
of the globe and all the social unrest that will accompany all this.

I live near Toronto in Canada, I have thought about buying farm land in
the area. Though fertile and unlikely to suffer from drought, it is
relatively expensive due to the high population density. I am also afraid
that if things got bad enough, trying to be self sufficient in a highly
populated area would be next to impossible as the starving masses from the
nearby cities would constanly be looting your land.

My friends think I am a bit of a nutcase when I mention what is on my mind
and either dismiss me as being overly pessimistic or are resigned to going
down with a sinking ship. I feel better if I am getting prepared. What
strategies would you guys suggest.

You might be more woried about the purchase of Molson Breweries. I know I
am.


"stanley baer" wrote in message
...
I know that global warming is not talked about too much in the US, but you
guys seem like a pretty well informed bunch and I am curious what your
ideas would be concerning the following.

I have done a bit of reading on global warming and its possible effects.
Even if there is only a 30% chance that what the scientists predict
actually happens, I would like to be prepared. As I understand it, the
effects of global warming will not really hit hard for the next 15-20
years, but after that things may get ugly (large scale droughts, change in
ocean currents, rising sea levels etc.)

What would you guys do if you were 35 years old, had a family and wanted
to protect them from the possible chaos that these changes will cause due
to food shortages, economic depression, mass migration from hard hit parts
of the globe and all the social unrest that will accompany all this.

I live near Toronto in Canada, I have thought about buying farm land in
the area. Though fertile and unlikely to suffer from drought, it is
relatively expensive due to the high population density. I am also afraid
that if things got bad enough, trying to be self sufficient in a highly
populated area would be next to impossible as the starving masses from the
nearby cities would constanly be looting your land.

My friends think I am a bit of a nutcase when I mention what is on my mind
and either dismiss me as being overly pessimistic or are resigned to going
down with a sinking ship. I feel better if I am getting prepared. What
strategies would you guys suggest.

You have been listneing too much to Suzuki!!! Do a google search on the guy
and read some of the counter information.
At 57 I have heard them all.
WW2 caused massive climate change. The atomic tests were doing it. The
satellites were doing it. No worries we are going to have mass starvation
from overpopulation by 1980. In between California was going to sink into
the ocean.
Get on with your life.
Randy


"stanley baer" wrote in message
...
I know that global warming is not talked about too much in the US, but you
guys seem like a pretty well informed bunch and I am curious what your
ideas would be concerning the following.

I have done a bit of reading on global warming and its possible effects.
Even if there is only a 30% chance that what the scientists predict
actually happens, I would like to be prepared. As I understand it, the
effects of global warming will not really hit hard for the next 15-20
years, but after that things may get ugly (large scale droughts, change in
ocean currents, rising sea levels etc.)

What would you guys do if you were 35 years old, had a family and wanted
to protect them from the possible chaos that these changes will cause due
to food shortages, economic depression, mass migration from hard hit parts
of the globe and all the social unrest that will accompany all this.

I live near Toronto in Canada, I have thought about buying farm land in
the area. Though fertile and unlikely to suffer from drought, it is
relatively expensive due to the high population density. I am also afraid
that if things got bad enough, trying to be self sufficient in a highly
populated area would be next to impossible as the starving masses from the
nearby cities would constanly be looting your land.

My friends think I am a bit of a nutcase when I mention what is on my mind
and either dismiss me as being overly pessimistic or are resigned to going
down with a sinking ship. I feel better if I am getting prepared. What
strategies would you guys suggest.

I know that global warming is not talked about too much in the US, but
you guys seem like a pretty well informed bunch and I am curious what
your ideas would be concerning the following.

I have done a bit of reading on global warming and its possible effects.
Even if there is only a 30% chance that what the scientists predict
actually happens, I would like to be prepared. As I understand it, the
effects of global warming will not really hit hard for the next 15-20
years, but after that things may get ugly (large scale droughts, change
in ocean currents, rising sea levels etc.)

What would you guys do if you were 35 years old, had a family and wanted
to protect them from the possible chaos that these changes will cause
due to food shortages, economic depression, mass migration from hard hit
parts of the globe and all the social unrest that will accompany all this.

I live near Toronto in Canada, I have thought about buying farm land in
the area. Though fertile and unlikely to suffer from drought, it is
relatively expensive due to the high population density. I am also
afraid that if things got bad enough, trying to be self sufficient in a
highly populated area would be next to impossible as the starving masses
from the nearby cities would constanly be looting your land.

My friends think I am a bit of a nutcase when I mention what is on my
mind and either dismiss me as being overly pessimistic or are resigned
to going down with a sinking ship. I feel better if I am getting
prepared. What strategies would you guys suggest.

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:49:54 -0800, the renowned Clark Magnuson
wrote:

10,000 years warm
100,000 years ice
10,000 years warm
100,000 years ice
10,000 years warm
What's next? Global Warming?

It would be great if Global Warming were more than liberal orthodoxy,
but it isn't.
We will get another ice age,

It's always possible we'll see nuclear winter before the ice age is
triggered.

and the earth will support a tiny fraction
of today's population.

There does seem to be an unseen hand of homeostasis at work. Killing
off a majority of the world's population *would* tend to make things
return towards the norm.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

My thots on GW are this: the weather runs in cycles. The models that are
used are way too simple to be effective. The effects of volcanoes aren't
included. When Mt. Pinatubo (sp) exploded, the global temp. went down a
couple of tenths. When Kracatoa (sp) exploded (1894), it was called "the
year without summer". There were frosts in Atlanta in July. When I was in
school (grad in 65), we were told another ice age was coming. I think the GW
talk is similar to the old "redistribution schemes". You guys (America,
Western Europe) use 50% of the world's energy, but only have 8% of the
population. I think GW is bunk. It was another way to tax (co2 credits) the
citizens of the industrialized world. I used computer modeling to predict
the flight characteristics of guided weapons. The more data you get, the
better your model. I don't think the atmosphere can be modeled very easily.
If your worried, I would move to high ground. I live 13 feet above sea
level on the Gulf coast of Florida. I'm not worried.
I'm sure you understand about the polar ice caps. The arctic ice floats
on the ocean. It doesn't sit on the bottom. Now here's an experiment for
you. Take a glass and fill it with ice. Then fill it to the brim with water.
What happens when the ice melts?
I get very talkative when expounding on things like this. Another one is
the CFC's. I could cover a few pages with that.
"stanley baer" wrote in message
...
I know that global warming is not talked about too much in the US, but
you guys seem like a pretty well informed bunch and I am curious what
your ideas would be concerning the following.

I have done a bit of reading on global warming and its possible effects.
Even if there is only a 30% chance that what the scientists predict
actually happens, I would like to be prepared. As I understand it, the
effects of global warming will not really hit hard for the next 15-20
years, but after that things may get ugly (large scale droughts, change
in ocean currents, rising sea levels etc.)

What would you guys do if you were 35 years old, had a family and wanted
to protect them from the possible chaos that these changes will cause
due to food shortages, economic depression, mass migration from hard hit
parts of the globe and all the social unrest that will accompany all this.

I live near Toronto in Canada, I have thought about buying farm land in
the area. Though fertile and unlikely to suffer from drought, it is
relatively expensive due to the high population density. I am also
afraid that if things got bad enough, trying to be self sufficient in a
highly populated area would be next to impossible as the starving masses
from the nearby cities would constanly be looting your land.

My friends think I am a bit of a nutcase when I mention what is on my
mind and either dismiss me as being overly pessimistic or are resigned
to going down with a sinking ship. I feel better if I am getting
prepared. What strategies would you guys suggest.

stanley baer wrote:

I know that global warming is not talked about too much in the US, but
you guys seem like a pretty well informed bunch and I am curious what
your ideas would be concerning the following.

I have done a bit of reading on global warming and its possible effects.
Even if there is only a 30% chance that what the scientists predict
actually happens, I would like to be prepared. As I understand it, the
effects of global warming will not really hit hard for the next 15-20
years, but after that things may get ugly (large scale droughts, change
in ocean currents, rising sea levels etc.)

What would you guys do if you were 35 years old, had a family and wanted
to protect them from the possible chaos that these changes will cause
due to food shortages, economic depression, mass migration from hard hit
parts of the globe and all the social unrest that will accompany all this.

I live near Toronto in Canada, I have thought about buying farm land in
the area. Though fertile and unlikely to suffer from drought, it is
relatively expensive due to the high population density. I am also
afraid that if things got bad enough, trying to be self sufficient in a
highly populated area would be next to impossible as the starving masses
from the nearby cities would constanly be looting your land.

My friends think I am a bit of a nutcase when I mention what is on my
mind and either dismiss me as being overly pessimistic or are resigned
to going down with a sinking ship. I feel better if I am getting
prepared. What strategies would you guys suggest.

Quit ****ing away your life worrying about what is possibble 5 or 50 or
500 generations down the road and have a look at what you can do to keep
you and yours comfortable if you are faced with a large scale fry of the
infrastructure such as the Quebec ice storm experience or the east
coasts power outages of late.

Those are things worth thinking about. And reasonably likely to happen
in your lifetime. Some food, some water, some electricity, and you can
live pretty well while others are whining in the dark and cold.

As to farm land in the T.O. area, if you have that kind of money to
spend, move somewhere nice instead. The only good money to be had in
farmland these days is to sell the topsoil, subdivide it, and move
elswhere.


Cheers
Trevor Jones

stanley baer wrote:

I have done a bit of reading on global warming and its possible effects.

Did that reading tell you that they don't really know what will happen
where?
If it didn't, then it wasn't much good. The thing is that atm, they
don't really know which parts will get wetter, which will get drier,
etc.


What would you guys do if you were 35 years old, had a family and wanted
to protect them from the possible chaos that these changes will cause
due to food shortages, economic depression, mass migration from hard hit
parts of the globe and all the social unrest that will accompany all this.

I would not sweat on it too much as society will go on in one form or
another. My comments are more general life skills; diversify. Sure, have
a main career, but have skills (even basic skills) in everything else
you can develop; wood, metal, plastic, masonary/ceramics,
electrical/electronics, oh and most importantly gardening.

The important thing is to have one go at everything, because when it
becomes a neccessity, that will save you so many losses, it aint funny.
And the experience in working in one area will help with understanding
what needs to be done in another. Or to put it another way, if is fine
knowing what to do, but a hell of a lot better knowing how to do it.

As to land, this is a trade off. The "safest" land is out of the way,
but it presents less opportunities if you want to live on the land and
earn a income from the passing trade (art gallery, pottery, gardens,
nursery, etc).

Seriously, I doubt that there is going to be disaster type scenarios,
like in the movies. Those will come from volcanoes, tsunamis, mud
slides, floods, fires, etc, etc.

Clark Magnuson wrote:

10,000 years warm
100,000 years ice
10,000 years warm
100,000 years ice
10,000 years warm
What's next? Global Warming?

It would be great if Global Warming were more than liberal orthodoxy,
but it isn't.
We will get another ice age, and the earth will support a tiny fraction
of today's population.

Yes if things don't change. The Sun is changing all of the time.
Some day it will be larger than the position Earth sits in so "we" need
to be prepared to move. Just where is up in the 'air'.

The last ice age is still here - it is retreating now - the Wholly Beasts are
beginning to pop up out of the ice with green food in their stomachs. So they
went and went fast.

Like the tide, the cooling will change. The global warming was a mistake, now
it seems likely global or regional cooling. Nature changes, just how strong
is yet to be seen.

We are bombarded with ice every day. Tons and tons of ice enter our atmosphere and
add to the water and ice. Constant dust occurs. Periodic exploding stars dump
very strong blasts of particles upon the Earth.

All in all, modeling is a very very complex mathematical problem. Much isn't
known or understood. Every day we learn more.

Time will tell.

Martin

--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 22:23:19 -0600, stanley baer
wrote:

My friends think I am a bit of a nutcase when I mention what is on my
mind and either dismiss me as being overly pessimistic or are resigned
to going down with a sinking ship. I feel better if I am getting
prepared. What strategies would you guys suggest.

First of all, global warming is a myth. We are actually heading into
the next ice age.

For the best info, misc.survivalism is a rather knowledgable newsgroup

Gunner

Rule #35
"That which does not kill you,
has made a huge tactical error"

In article BKzQd.403476$8l.39351@pd7tw1no, Randy Zimmerman says...

satellites were doing it. No worries we are going to have mass starvation
from overpopulation by 1980. In between California was going to sink into
the ocean.

Does gunner know about this?



Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

I think Gunner is a major CAUSE of global warming...look at how hot he makes
Cliffy!


"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article BKzQd.403476$8l.39351@pd7tw1no, Randy Zimmerman says...

satellites were doing it. No worries we are going to have mass starvation
from overpopulation by 1980. In between California was going to sink into
the ocean.

Does gunner know about this?



Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"Clark Magnuson" wrote in message
...
10,000 years warm
100,000 years ice
10,000 years warm
100,000 years ice
10,000 years warm
What's next? Global Warming?

It would be great if Global Warming were more than liberal orthodoxy,
but it isn't.
We will get another ice age, and the earth will support a tiny fraction
of today's population.

--
Be careful what you pray for, it can happen.


Ostrich!

snip
I have done a bit of reading on global warming and its possible effects.
Even if there is only a 30% chance that what the scientists predict
actually happens, I would like to be prepared. As I understand it, the
effects of global warming will not really hit hard for the next 15-20
years, but after that things may get ugly (large scale droughts, change
in ocean currents, rising sea levels etc.)
snip
While global warming *MAY* be occurring, it has by no means been
proven, nor has the quantifiable magnitude of the effects of
human activity been determined.

In the US, the imminent disaster of economic collapse due to
unsustainable governmental deficits, and/or unsustainable trade
deficits is far more the "clear and present danger." This is
greatly compounded by the rapidly increasing mal-distribution of
income and income producing assets both nationally and
internationally on both personal and regional basis.

If there were any actual concern with the build-up of the
so-called green house gasses, we would be using the huge numbers
of non-violent offenders in the U.S. prison systems to plant
suitable trees on public lands. The gasbags in government
continue to talk, while we continue to denude the land of
vegetation, for example by clear cutting of forests, indicating
the whole subject of "global warming" is simply a diversion for
the sections of the US population that don't follow professional
athletics or the M. Jackson trial.

As for steps you can take for yourself and your family, move to a
small town, get to know your neighbors, learn traditional skills,
and invest in real assets such as land and tools. Avoid BS
professions/occupations that don't generate any "added value," as
these are the first to go when the crunch hits.

GmcD

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 22:23:19 -0600, stanley baer
wrote:

My friends think I am a bit of a nutcase when I mention what is on my
mind and either dismiss me as being overly pessimistic or are resigned
to going down with a sinking ship. I feel better if I am getting
prepared. What strategies would you guys suggest.

First of all, global warming is a myth. We are actually heading into
the next ice age.

Branching out into environmental science, are we, Gunner? g!

--
Ed Huntress

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
m...
I think Gunner is a major CAUSE of global warming...look at how hot he
makes
Cliffy!

It's the greenhouse gasses. Gunner has been reading too many right-wing
blogs, and he's transpiring methane now.

--
Ed Huntress

It's the greenhouse gasses. Gunner has been reading too many right-wing
blogs, and he's transpiring methane now.

--
Ed Huntress


We need to harness that energy...Gunner, this is going to HURT!!

Global Warming is as much of a problem for the world as Y2K was...

jim rozen wrote:

In article BKzQd.403476$8l.39351@pd7tw1no, Randy Zimmerman says...


satellites were doing it. No worries we are going to have mass starvation

from overpopulation by 1980. In between California was going to sink into

the ocean.


Does gunner know about this?

Given the amount of old iron in Gunner's
backyard and the fact that it's sitting
on top of pumped-out oil wells, his part
of California might indeed sink into the
ocean. (:

Tom sez: "You might be more worried about the purchase of Molson Breweries."

Not to worry, Tom! I don't think the Molson-Coors merger will screw up
either beer, do you? The world needs a US/Canadian beer conglomerate to
compete with those pesky Europeans, don't you think? Besides, I always
thought Heinekins and Coors were a lot alike; and frankly, I could do
without either one.

Bob Swinney



"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
m...
am.


"stanley baer" wrote in message
...
I know that global warming is not talked about too much in the US, but you
guys seem like a pretty well informed bunch and I am curious what your
ideas would be concerning the following.

I have done a bit of reading on global warming and its possible effects.
Even if there is only a 30% chance that what the scientists predict
actually happens, I would like to be prepared. As I understand it, the
effects of global warming will not really hit hard for the next 15-20
years, but after that things may get ugly (large scale droughts, change
in ocean currents, rising sea levels etc.)

What would you guys do if you were 35 years old, had a family and wanted
to protect them from the possible chaos that these changes will cause due
to food shortages, economic depression, mass migration from hard hit
parts of the globe and all the social unrest that will accompany all
this.

I live near Toronto in Canada, I have thought about buying farm land in
the area. Though fertile and unlikely to suffer from drought, it is
relatively expensive due to the high population density. I am also
afraid that if things got bad enough, trying to be self sufficient in a
highly populated area would be next to impossible as the starving masses
from the nearby cities would constanly be looting your land.

My friends think I am a bit of a nutcase when I mention what is on my
mind and either dismiss me as being overly pessimistic or are resigned to
going down with a sinking ship. I feel better if I am getting prepared.
What strategies would you guys suggest.

On 16 Feb 2005 04:50:16 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article BKzQd.403476$8l.39351@pd7tw1no, Randy Zimmerman says...

satellites were doing it. No worries we are going to have mass starvation
from overpopulation by 1980. In between California was going to sink into
the ocean.

Does gunner know about this?



Jim

food...need food...drifting...sinking.

lol

Gunner

Rule #35
"That which does not kill you,
has made a huge tactical error"

On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:15:17 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 22:23:19 -0600, stanley baer
wrote:

My friends think I am a bit of a nutcase when I mention what is on my
mind and either dismiss me as being overly pessimistic or are resigned
to going down with a sinking ship. I feel better if I am getting
prepared. What strategies would you guys suggest.

First of all, global warming is a myth. We are actually heading into
the next ice age.

Branching out into environmental science, are we, Gunner? g!

Of course. If the Greens/Leftwing fringe kooks/sky-is-falling/types
can use junk science, I can too. Its only fair

GUnner

Rule #35
"That which does not kill you,
has made a huge tactical error"

"Robert Swinney" wrote in message
...
Tom sez: "You might be more worried about the purchase of Molson
Breweries."

Not to worry, Tom! I don't think the Molson-Coors merger will screw up
either beer, do you? The world needs a US/Canadian beer conglomerate to
compete with those pesky Europeans, don't you think? Besides, I always
thought Heinekins and Coors were a lot alike; and frankly, I could do
without either one.

Bob Swinney


I don't drink a lot of beer (Tommy two-beer) but I do enjoy a good one. I
think Heinekens is a little more hoppy than Coors. Coors is a "guzzling"
beer. Beck's and St, Paulie Girl are enjoyable. I think we both need to do
more research.

In article , Jim Stewart says...

Does gunner know about this?

Given the amount of old iron in Gunner's
backyard and the fact that it's sitting
on top of pumped-out oil wells, his part
of California might indeed sink into the
ocean. (:

I think you need to balance the aerodynamic
lift from his new roof, against the ballast
from his backyard!

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

F. George McDuffee wrote:
snip
I have done a bit of reading on global warming and its possible
effects.
Even if there is only a 30% chance that what the scientists
predict
actually happens, I would like to be prepared. As I understand it,
the
effects of global warming will not really hit hard for the next
15-20
years, but after that things may get ugly (large scale droughts,
change
in ocean currents, rising sea levels etc.)
snip
While global warming *MAY* be occurring, it has by no means been
proven, nor has the quantifiable magnitude of the effects of
human activity been determined.

In the US, the imminent disaster of economic collapse due to
unsustainable governmental deficits, and/or unsustainable trade
deficits is far more the "clear and present danger." This is
greatly compounded by the rapidly increasing mal-distribution of
income and income producing assets both nationally and
internationally on both personal and regional basis.

If there were any actual concern with the build-up of the
so-called green house gasses, we would be using the huge numbers
of non-violent offenders in the U.S. prison systems to plant
suitable trees on public lands. The gasbags in government
continue to talk, while we continue to denude the land of
vegetation, for example by clear cutting of forests, indicating
the whole subject of "global warming" is simply a diversion for
the sections of the US population that don't follow professional
athletics or the M. Jackson trial.

As for steps you can take for yourself and your family, move to a
small town, get to know your neighbors, learn traditional skills,
and invest in real assets such as land and tools. Avoid BS
professions/occupations that don't generate any "added value," as
these are the first to go when the crunch hits.

GmcD

I suppose this thinking is a sign of modern times in wealthy countries.
That is we are so isolated from nature (in our climate controlled
homes) and protected from just about all our former natural predators,
that we have to start making up things we need protection from.
Probably its an instinct we can't get rid of, for the last million
years we always had to worry about something, death was at our door
daily. So now this instinct drives us to imagine all sorts of
disasters, to allow to us feel normal. The same person who claims the
imminent economic collapse of the US today would of have an entirely
different picture a few years ago when a budget surplus was predicted,
but what happen since then? Did 90% of the US assets fall into the
ocean? Don't ask I suppose, just listen to the economic predictions
made today by the same economists that predicted a surplus a few years
ago. Its crazy logic.

My advice is to go about your life and not worry about some unpredictable
event such as global warming. This is the stuff of those arrogant
environmental types who actually belive they can in some way control or
modify nature. The recent tsunami disaster is an example of how nature has
more tricks in store for us that we can handle without worrying over a bunch
of aerosol cans squirting holes in the ozone. When Mt St Helens erupted in
1981, a local group calculated that in that single day, it put more carbon
monoxide, sulpher dioxide, cyanide and particulate matter into the
atmosphere than all the cars ever made and could be made in a thousand
years.
"stanley baer" wrote in message
...
I know that global warming is not talked about too much in the US, but
you guys seem like a pretty well informed bunch and I am curious what
your ideas would be concerning the following.

I have done a bit of reading on global warming and its possible effects.
Even if there is only a 30% chance that what the scientists predict
actually happens, I would like to be prepared. As I understand it, the
effects of global warming will not really hit hard for the next 15-20
years, but after that things may get ugly (large scale droughts, change
in ocean currents, rising sea levels etc.)

What would you guys do if you were 35 years old, had a family and wanted
to protect them from the possible chaos that these changes will cause
due to food shortages, economic depression, mass migration from hard hit
parts of the globe and all the social unrest that will accompany all this.

I live near Toronto in Canada, I have thought about buying farm land in
the area. Though fertile and unlikely to suffer from drought, it is
relatively expensive due to the high population density. I am also
afraid that if things got bad enough, trying to be self sufficient in a
highly populated area would be next to impossible as the starving masses
from the nearby cities would constanly be looting your land.

My friends think I am a bit of a nutcase when I mention what is on my
mind and either dismiss me as being overly pessimistic or are resigned
to going down with a sinking ship. I feel better if I am getting
prepared. What strategies would you guys suggest.

Tom sez: I think we both need to do
more research.

Yess. I'll drink to that. But while in recommending mode, let's try
Mexican "Bohemia" or "Trisecki"

Bob Swinney



"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

"Robert Swinney" wrote in message
...
Tom sez: "You might be more worried about the purchase of Molson
Breweries."

Not to worry, Tom! I don't think the Molson-Coors merger will screw up
either beer, do you? The world needs a US/Canadian beer conglomerate to
compete with those pesky Europeans, don't you think? Besides, I always
thought Heinekins and Coors were a lot alike; and frankly, I could do
without either one.

Bob Swinney


I don't drink a lot of beer (Tommy two-beer) but I do enjoy a good one. I
think Heinekens is a little more hoppy than Coors. Coors is a "guzzling"
beer. Beck's and St, Paulie Girl are enjoyable.

F. George McDuffee wrote:
snip

I have done a bit of reading on global warming and its possible effects.
Even if there is only a 30% chance that what the scientists predict
actually happens, I would like to be prepared. As I understand it, the
effects of global warming will not really hit hard for the next 15-20
years, but after that things may get ugly (large scale droughts, change
in ocean currents, rising sea levels etc.)

snip
While global warming *MAY* be occurring, it has by no means been
proven, nor has the quantifiable magnitude of the effects of
human activity been determined.

In the US, the imminent disaster of economic collapse due to
unsustainable governmental deficits, and/or unsustainable trade
deficits is far more the "clear and present danger." This is
greatly compounded by the rapidly increasing mal-distribution of
income and income producing assets both nationally and
internationally on both personal and regional basis.

If there were any actual concern with the build-up of the
so-called green house gasses, we would be using the huge numbers
of non-violent offenders in the U.S. prison systems to plant
suitable trees on public lands. The gasbags in government
continue to talk, while we continue to denude the land of
vegetation, for example by clear cutting of forests, indicating
the whole subject of "global warming" is simply a diversion for
the sections of the US population that don't follow professional
athletics or the M. Jackson trial.

As for steps you can take for yourself and your family, move to a
small town, get to know your neighbors, learn traditional skills,
and invest in real assets such as land and tools. Avoid BS
professions/occupations that don't generate any "added value," as
these are the first to go when the crunch hits.

GmcD


There are lots of historical precedents for civilizations that refused
to change their traditional practices that were destroying the
environment they depended on, so I don't take a lot of comfort from the
fact that we are not planting trees. I am of the opinion that most
people have so many personal problems that they are not able to think
ahead more than a couple of weeks. The people in charge that could take
a leadership role know that they will always be able to look after
themselves if things get bad so are not that motivated to make changes
that would inflict short term pain on the people that vote for them. I
hope the global warming is just like Y2K, I just don't want stick my
head in the sand and hope for the best.

stan

snip
I suppose this thinking is a sign of modern times snip The same person who claims the
imminent economic collapse of the US today would of have an entirely
different picture a few years ago when a budget surplus was predicted,
but what happen since then? Did 90% of the US assets fall into the
ocean?
snip
No, but ownership is/has largely passed. [Anyone for a homeowner
equity loan?]

Examination of the economic situation is different from
examination of the environment in that there is a considerable
amount of history and data to draw on and you are not attempting
to extrapolate from a sample of one.

For example, the GINI index is widely used as a measure of the
equal distribution of income. It has a very close correlation
with many quality of life factors such as the
murder/suicide/crime rates. Even within the US, areas with high
GINI indicia, such as Washington DC, have exceptionally high
crime/suicide rates.

The last time there was this high a concentration of income
producing assets and wealth in the United States was in 1929.
Earlier depressions and panics appear to have had the same
warning sign, but a large fraction of the US population was
more-or-less outside the money economy at those times.

You are correct on your observations about the misleading nature
of the "prediction of the day," which is why I don't use these
but rather actual data which has tended to be very consistent
over the last 50 or so years.

I cannot tell you exactly when the implosion will occur, but
given the long-term trends of soaring public debt and the trade
deficit, it will occur, most likely with the speed of the
Internet, as occurred in Argentina.

The US is no more immune from the laws of economics than it is
from the laws of physics. Today, no sane person believes in the
possibility of a perpetual motion machine in the physical sense,
why then do so many believe in an perpetual motion machine in the
economic sense, whereby an endless stream of wealth is generated?

On 16 Feb 2005 04:50:16 -0800, the inscrutable jim rozen
spake:

In article BKzQd.403476$8l.39351@pd7tw1no, Randy Zimmerman says...

satellites were doing it. No worries we are going to have mass starvation
from overpopulation by 1980. In between California was going to sink into
the ocean.

Does gunner know about this?



C'mon, guys. Get real. Murphy's Law demands the following:

"When the Big One hits California, everything East of
the San Andreas Fault will slide into the Atlantic."


----------------------------------
VIRTUE...is its own punishment
http://www.diversify.com Website Applications
==================================================

"steve" wrote in message
oups.com...

F. George McDuffee wrote:
snip
small town, get to know your neighbors, learn traditional skills,
and invest in real assets such as land and tools. Avoid BS
professions/occupations that don't generate any "added value," as
these are the first to go when the crunch hits.

GmcD

I suppose this thinking is a sign of modern times in wealthy countries.
That is we are so isolated from nature (in our climate controlled
homes) and protected from just about all our former natural predators,
that we have to start making up things we need protection from.
Probably its an instinct we can't get rid of, for the last million
years we always had to worry about something, death was at our door
daily. So now this instinct drives us to imagine all sorts of
disasters, to allow to us feel normal. The same person who claims the
imminent economic collapse of the US today would of have an entirely
different picture a few years ago when a budget surplus was predicted,
but what happen since then? Did 90% of the US assets fall into the
ocean? Don't ask I suppose, just listen to the economic predictions
made today by the same economists that predicted a surplus a few years
ago. Its crazy logic.


Pretty much exactly what Crichton's book is about.

http://www.techcentralstation.com/011905B.html

Steve.

If things warm up a bit, owning a farm in Canada might not be so bad.
Farmers can always ride out lean economic times better than city
dwellers. I'd advise you to buy some firearms for hunting and protection
against previously mentioned, hungry, city dwellers, but since you're
Canadian, that's not an option ;-)

Good luck.



stanley baer wrote:

I know that global warming is not talked about too much in the US, but
you guys seem like a pretty well informed bunch and I am curious what
your ideas would be concerning the following.

I have done a bit of reading on global warming and its possible effects.
Even if there is only a 30% chance that what the scientists predict
actually happens, I would like to be prepared. As I understand it, the
effects of global warming will not really hit hard for the next 15-20
years, but after that things may get ugly (large scale droughts, change
in ocean currents, rising sea levels etc.)

What would you guys do if you were 35 years old, had a family and wanted
to protect them from the possible chaos that these changes will cause
due to food shortages, economic depression, mass migration from hard hit
parts of the globe and all the social unrest that will accompany all this.

I live near Toronto in Canada, I have thought about buying farm land in
the area. Though fertile and unlikely to suffer from drought, it is
relatively expensive due to the high population density. I am also
afraid that if things got bad enough, trying to be self sufficient in a
highly populated area would be next to impossible as the starving masses
from the nearby cities would constanly be looting your land.

My friends think I am a bit of a nutcase when I mention what is on my
mind and either dismiss me as being overly pessimistic or are resigned
to going down with a sinking ship. I feel better if I am getting
prepared. What strategies would you guys suggest.

Before you go off the deep end, don't forget that in the '60s and '70s, the
hue and cry was another ice age was coming. Remember that???
The earth was warmer than it is now according to historical records of where
snow and freezing was happening. From about 500AD to 1300AD, the earth was
in a warming trend and the food plants were growing well. Men were
wandering the earth, expanding their range because they had the food to do
the long trips and so forth. The Vikings, for example, hit the northern
area of Newfoundland (they called it Vinland) and found grapes growing
profusely. Today, grapes only grow up to the New York area without a lot of
work protecting them from cold.
If I was to buy some land in Canada for protection against global warming,
I'd get some more northerly land than anything near the cities on the
southern border. When the temps rise by 5C or so, that land will become
good farmland again.
I'll also note that the increase in CO2 is also making plants grow better
and this has been proved by experiments. Go search for this on the web.

--
Why isn't there an Ozone Hole at the NORTH Pole?

Emmo wrote:

Global Warming is as much of a problem for the world as Y2K was...


ROFL, you clearly don't understand.
Global warming will affect the whole globe.

Y2K was only ever going to affect short sighted companies that didn't
modify their computer programs. In truth there just wasn't that many of
them left since many companies had been making changes since the 1980's.

Gunner wrote:

For the best info, misc.survivalism is a rather knowledgable newsgroup

ROFL. Funniest thing you've said in a while.
m.s is the refuge for all the Y2K and like hysteria.

"F. George McDuffee" wrote:

If there were any actual concern with the build-up of the
so-called green house gasses, we would be using the huge numbers
of non-violent offenders in the U.S. prison systems to plant
suitable trees on public lands.

Umm, you haven't been paying attention. The oceanographers have unsubtly
pointed out that "that doesn't work because the tree then dies and
starts releasing that CO2 again, so please could we have more funding
for ocean sinks" {:-).

And if you think that is funny, Australia thinks it is going to liquify
it and pump it into underground storage[1]. Yer, right, like we dont't
have earth quakes like every where else. the real reason is they need to
find another use for all that underground storage they found for
vitrified nuclear waste.

[1] I'm still waiting to see the nett energy calcs on that on. How much
heat do you release separating and liquifying CO2?

You are incorrect. Global warming is as make-believe as the Y2K problem
was.

There were no changes that needed to be made because of the 2 digit date -
it was solely an opportunity (mostly pushed by Lou Gerstner at IBM) to sell
services. There is not a single documented case where the Y2K problem
evidenced itself in any way. It was one of the biggest frauds ever
perpetrated on a gullible public. It is those of us in the software
industry who were rofl...

Just as global warming is an excuse to force changes that do not need to be
made. Check out the article on the front page of the Wall Street Journal
last week that shows that the data 'proving' this was seriously
mis-represented to create the hockey stick graph that alarmists have been
pointing to...

A fraud. Totally bogus. Junk science. Foolish. Just as the Y2k issue
was...

"Terry Collins" wrote in message
...
Emmo wrote:

Global Warming is as much of a problem for the world as Y2K was...


ROFL, you clearly don't understand.
Global warming will affect the whole globe.

Y2K was only ever going to affect short sighted companies that didn't
modify their computer programs. In truth there just wasn't that many of
them left since many companies had been making changes since the 1980's.

On 2/16/05 6:29 PM, Terry Collins wrote:
Emmo wrote:

Global Warming is as much of a problem for the world as Y2K was...



ROFL, you clearly don't understand.
Global warming will affect the whole globe.

Y2K was only ever going to affect short sighted companies that didn't
modify their computer programs. In truth there just wasn't that many of
them left since many companies had been making changes since the 1980's.

LOL...as someone who was 'on duty' at a County Emergency Control Centre
for the 'Y2K' period I can honestly say it was the biggest 'non-event'
it has ever been my misfortune to sit through. The only 'up' side was
the endless supply of food and drink (non-alcoholic) and the company of
the rest of the people who were forced to endure hours of mindless
tedium waiting for something we all knew was never going to happen
anyway. At 1 a.m. we decided enough was enough and all went home.


--
Larry Green