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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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uh, oh .. electrical soldering technique question`
The little Dumore Carvit I was so happy to find recently had severe fraying
of the cord right where it went into the motor housing. Today I spun it up and yup, it went *pop*! I cut off the wires and tore the motor apart. Hmm. Doesn't look like I can get back in there at all. Wire now only sticking out ¼". I very carefully working with magnifiers stripped off about 1/8", now I have 2 ultra-short stubs of stranded copper, maybe 14 or 16 gauge, to which I have to solder a new power cord. It's a universally wound motor with brushes and the brush housings don't look removable from the stator shell and the stator itself is riveted to the brush housings, so it really doesn't look like I'm going to get inside there to do a decent splice. I'm thinking of getting some skinny modelers brass tubing, slitting it lengthwise maybe 1/2" with a Dremel tool, then cutting off a couple of 1/4" thin brass crimp tubes and first making a mechanical connection by crimping, then soldering into the slit, then sliding on heat shrink and insulating each crimp, then sliding on another layer of heat shrink, then building up a layer of electrical tape, the good stuff so it tapers up and eventually catches the teeny 1/8" of old insulation left, then finally sliding on a bigger piece of heat shrink to make it look as clean as possible, then looping the wire to a tie point on the body of the machine so there should never be any stress on the splice. I know some of you guys are pretty handy on an electronics bench, how does this sound to you? Grant Erwin |
#2
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Sounds too complicated. If the little stub of wire is stranded, then
take another piece of stranded and push it in to overlap the stub, kind of like interlocking fingers, and solder with a soldering gun. You can use solder paste to encourage a good joint. It will be fat in the interlocking/overlap part, but plenty of solder area so plenty strong. Tape or use heat shrink tubing, to insulate, your choice, although it may be too fat for heat shrink tubing. Use 3M electrical tape, not the cheap stuff. I am guessing that it will not get really hot, such that good electrical tape will hold. Richard Grant Erwin wrote: The little Dumore Carvit I was so happy to find recently had severe fraying of the cord right where it went into the motor housing. Today I spun it up and yup, it went *pop*! I cut off the wires and tore the motor apart. Hmm. Doesn't look like I can get back in there at all. Wire now only sticking out ¼". I very carefully working with magnifiers stripped off about 1/8", now I have 2 ultra-short stubs of stranded copper, maybe 14 or 16 gauge, to which I have to solder a new power cord. It's a universally wound motor with brushes and the brush housings don't look removable from the stator shell and the stator itself is riveted to the brush housings, so it really doesn't look like I'm going to get inside there to do a decent splice. I'm thinking of getting some skinny modelers brass tubing, slitting it lengthwise maybe 1/2" with a Dremel tool, then cutting off a couple of 1/4" thin brass crimp tubes and first making a mechanical connection by crimping, then soldering into the slit, then sliding on heat shrink and insulating each crimp, then sliding on another layer of heat shrink, then building up a layer of electrical tape, the good stuff so it tapers up and eventually catches the teeny 1/8" of old insulation left, then finally sliding on a bigger piece of heat shrink to make it look as clean as possible, then looping the wire to a tie point on the body of the machine so there should never be any stress on the splice. I know some of you guys are pretty handy on an electronics bench, how does this sound to you? Grant Erwin |
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On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 19:15:55 -0800, the renowned Grant Erwin
wrote: The little Dumore Carvit I was so happy to find recently had severe fraying of the cord right where it went into the motor housing. Today I spun it up and yup, it went *pop*! I cut off the wires and tore the motor apart. Hmm. Doesn't look like I can get back in there at all. Wire now only sticking out ¼". I very carefully working with magnifiers stripped off about 1/8", now I have 2 ultra-short stubs of stranded copper, maybe 14 or 16 gauge, to which I have to solder a new power cord. It's a universally wound motor with brushes and the brush housings don't look removable from the stator shell and the stator itself is riveted to the brush housings, so it really doesn't look like I'm going to get inside there to do a decent splice. I'm thinking of getting some skinny modelers brass tubing, slitting it lengthwise maybe 1/2" with a Dremel tool, then cutting off a couple of 1/4" thin brass crimp tubes and first making a mechanical connection by crimping, then soldering into the slit, then sliding on heat shrink and insulating each crimp, then sliding on another layer of heat shrink, then building up a layer of electrical tape, the good stuff so it tapers up and eventually catches the teeny 1/8" of old insulation left, then finally sliding on a bigger piece of heat shrink to make it look as clean as possible, then looping the wire to a tie point on the body of the machine so there should never be any stress on the splice. I know some of you guys are pretty handy on an electronics bench, how does this sound to you? Grant Erwin Sounds good. Why do you want to slit the tubing lengthwise? Why not just get the smallest size the wire will fit into and crimp (or even better, swage if you have such a tool) it onto the wire. When it breaks again it will break not at the tubing but where the solder ends (past the tubing), because the solder-filled part will be rigid and the part just after that will flex. That probably means it's toast. You might want to pot the stubs and homemade crimp connectors into epoxy to keep them from the short end from moving as much as possible, if that makes sense. It goes without saying that you must use electronic grade solder not acid-core stuff. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany -- "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com |
#4
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You might want to look into the prefab solder/heat shrink tubing
assemblies. I don't recall who makes them at the moment, but they are a piece of heat shrink tubing with a sleeve of low temp solder in the middle, probably some flux as well, and I think each end also has a hot melt adhesive insert as well. Basically it gives you the entire solder, shrink and seal / strain relief in a single operation. You may already have a good heat gun, but one thing that works well for tight areas is to take one of the cheap RS desoldering irons that has the squeeze bulb mounted along the handle and connect an air supply in place of the bulb. It will give you a pinpoint supply of very hot air. Worst case you just may have to drill the rivets and take it apart to do the job properly. If they were able to rivet it together at the factory then you should be able to put it back together with a little creativity and perhaps building a couple tools to help. Pete C. Grant Erwin wrote: The little Dumore Carvit I was so happy to find recently had severe fraying of the cord right where it went into the motor housing. Today I spun it up and yup, it went *pop*! I cut off the wires and tore the motor apart. Hmm. Doesn't look like I can get back in there at all. Wire now only sticking out ¼". I very carefully working with magnifiers stripped off about 1/8", now I have 2 ultra-short stubs of stranded copper, maybe 14 or 16 gauge, to which I have to solder a new power cord. It's a universally wound motor with brushes and the brush housings don't look removable from the stator shell and the stator itself is riveted to the brush housings, so it really doesn't look like I'm going to get inside there to do a decent splice. I'm thinking of getting some skinny modelers brass tubing, slitting it lengthwise maybe 1/2" with a Dremel tool, then cutting off a couple of 1/4" thin brass crimp tubes and first making a mechanical connection by crimping, then soldering into the slit, then sliding on heat shrink and insulating each crimp, then sliding on another layer of heat shrink, then building up a layer of electrical tape, the good stuff so it tapers up and eventually catches the teeny 1/8" of old insulation left, then finally sliding on a bigger piece of heat shrink to make it look as clean as possible, then looping the wire to a tie point on the body of the machine so there should never be any stress on the splice. I know some of you guys are pretty handy on an electronics bench, how does this sound to you? Grant Erwin |
#5
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I have used the brass tubing for splicing but just soldered without
crimping. It works good to keep the wires in place whilce soldering. Reinforcement of the whole splice area with epoxy, RTV or similiar would be a good idea to prevent breaking. Future cord replacements, if required, could be further away rather than trying to redo at the same spot. Don Young "Grant Erwin" wrote in message ... The little Dumore Carvit I was so happy to find recently had severe fraying of the cord right where it went into the motor housing. Today I spun it up and yup, it went *pop*! I cut off the wires and tore the motor apart. Hmm. Doesn't look like I can get back in there at all. Wire now only sticking out ¼". I very carefully working with magnifiers stripped off about 1/8", now I have 2 ultra-short stubs of stranded copper, maybe 14 or 16 gauge, to which I have to solder a new power cord. It's a universally wound motor with brushes and the brush housings don't look removable from the stator shell and the stator itself is riveted to the brush housings, so it really doesn't look like I'm going to get inside there to do a decent splice. I'm thinking of getting some skinny modelers brass tubing, slitting it lengthwise maybe 1/2" with a Dremel tool, then cutting off a couple of 1/4" thin brass crimp tubes and first making a mechanical connection by crimping, then soldering into the slit, then sliding on heat shrink and insulating each crimp, then sliding on another layer of heat shrink, then building up a layer of electrical tape, the good stuff so it tapers up and eventually catches the teeny 1/8" of old insulation left, then finally sliding on a bigger piece of heat shrink to make it look as clean as possible, then looping the wire to a tie point on the body of the machine so there should never be any stress on the splice. I know some of you guys are pretty handy on an electronics bench, how does this sound to you? Grant Erwin |
#6
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Spehro Pefhany wrote:
On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 19:15:55 -0800, the renowned Grant Erwin wrote: The little Dumore Carvit I was so happy to find recently had severe fraying of the cord right where it went into the motor housing. Today I spun it up and yup, it went *pop*! I cut off the wires and tore the motor apart. Hmm. Doesn't look like I can get back in there at all. Wire now only sticking out ¼". I very carefully working with magnifiers stripped off about 1/8", now I have 2 ultra-short stubs of stranded copper, maybe 14 or 16 gauge, to which I have to solder a new power cord. It's a universally wound motor with brushes and the brush housings don't look removable from the stator shell and the stator itself is riveted to the brush housings, so it really doesn't look like I'm going to get inside there to do a decent splice. I'm thinking of getting some skinny modelers brass tubing, slitting it lengthwise maybe 1/2" with a Dremel tool, then cutting off a couple of 1/4" thin brass crimp tubes and first making a mechanical connection by crimping, then soldering into the slit, then sliding on heat shrink and insulating each crimp, then sliding on another layer of heat shrink, then building up a layer of electrical tape, the good stuff so it tapers up and eventually catches the teeny 1/8" of old insulation left, then finally sliding on a bigger piece of heat shrink to make it look as clean as possible, then looping the wire to a tie point on the body of the machine so there should never be any stress on the splice. I know some of you guys are pretty handy on an electronics bench, how does this sound to you? Grant Erwin Sounds good. Why do you want to slit the tubing lengthwise? Why not just get the smallest size the wire will fit into and crimp (or even better, swage if you have such a tool) it onto the wire. When it breaks again it will break not at the tubing but where the solder ends (past the tubing), because the solder-filled part will be rigid and the part just after that will flex. That probably means it's toast. You might want to pot the stubs and homemade crimp connectors into epoxy to keep them from the short end from moving as much as possible, if that makes sense. It goes without saying that you must use electronic grade solder not acid-core stuff. Next time it breaks it will be curtains, all right. The slit was so I could feed in solder. I'm not going to be able to count on this for any mechanical strength, and I want badly to save this motor. I like the idea of potting in epoxy but I'm not sure how to do that. GWE |
#7
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"Grant Erwin" wrote in message ... The little Dumore Carvit I was so happy to find recently had severe fraying of the cord right where it went into the motor housing. Today I spun it up and yup, it went *pop*! I cut off the wires and tore the motor apart. Hmm. Doesn't look like I can get back in there at all. Wire now only sticking out ¼". I very carefully working with magnifiers stripped off about 1/8", now I have 2 ultra-short stubs of stranded copper, maybe 14 or 16 gauge, to which I have to solder a new power cord. It's a universally wound motor with brushes and the brush housings don't look removable from the stator shell and the stator itself is riveted to the brush housings, so it really doesn't look like I'm going to get inside there to do a decent splice. I'm thinking of getting some skinny modelers brass tubing, slitting it lengthwise maybe 1/2" with a Dremel tool, then cutting off a couple of 1/4" thin brass crimp tubes and first making a mechanical connection by crimping, then soldering into the slit, then sliding on heat shrink and insulating each crimp, then sliding on another layer of heat shrink, then building up a layer of electrical tape, the good stuff so it tapers up and eventually catches the teeny 1/8" of old insulation left, then finally sliding on a bigger piece of heat shrink to make it look as clean as possible, then looping the wire to a tie point on the body of the machine so there should never be any stress on the splice. I know some of you guys are pretty handy on an electronics bench, how does this sound to you? Grant Erwin Why not just get a regular butt splice crimp connector, cut off the insulation, then solder and shrink tube... |
#8
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In article . net,
Rick wrote: "Grant Erwin" wrote in message ... The little Dumore Carvit I was so happy to find recently had severe fraying of the cord right where it went into the motor housing. Today I spun it up and yup, it went *pop*! I cut off the wires and tore the motor apart. Hmm. Doesn't look like I can get back in there at all. Wire now only sticking out ¼". I very carefully working with magnifiers stripped off about 1/8", now I have 2 ultra-short stubs of stranded copper, maybe 14 or 16 gauge, to which I have to solder a new power cord. [ ... ] Why not just get a regular butt splice crimp connector, cut off the insulation, then solder and shrink tube... Personally, I would take the appropriate size crimp butt splices (blue for 14 ga, blue or red for 16 ga), and if necessary trim off just the end of the insulation, so the splice was still insulated, but there was no insulation grip beyond that, and crimp those in place -- *without* solder. The solder will wick into the wire, and where it stops will be where the wire will flex and break. If you can keep the insulation support, it will be a better thing overall, but you have really left yourself very little to work with. And this is best done with a crimper made for the task. My own preference is the AMP crimpers specified as "P.I.D.G." (which is the designation for the insulation support feature). But I'll bet that there is *some* way to take that motor apart and give it new wire all the way through. Dumore made really good stuff, so it should not be made to not be repairable. Good Luck, DoN. -- Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#9
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On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 19:15:55 -0800, Grant Erwin
wrote: The little Dumore Carvit I was so happy to find recently had severe fraying of the cord right where it went into the motor housing. Today I spun it up and yup, it went *pop*! I cut off the wires and tore the motor apart. Hmm. Doesn't look like I can get back in there at all. Wire now only sticking out ¼". I very carefully working with magnifiers stripped off about 1/8", now I have 2 ultra-short stubs of stranded copper, maybe 14 or 16 gauge, to which I have to solder a new power cord. It's a universally wound motor with brushes and the brush housings don't look removable from the stator shell and the stator itself is riveted to the brush housings, so it really doesn't look like I'm going to get inside there to do a decent splice. I'm thinking of getting some skinny modelers brass tubing, slitting it lengthwise maybe 1/2" with a Dremel tool, then cutting off a couple of 1/4" thin brass crimp tubes and first making a mechanical connection by crimping, then soldering into the slit, then sliding on heat shrink and insulating each crimp, then sliding on another layer of heat shrink, then building up a layer of electrical tape, the good stuff so it tapers up and eventually catches the teeny 1/8" of old insulation left, then finally sliding on a bigger piece of heat shrink to make it look as clean as possible, then looping the wire to a tie point on the body of the machine so there should never be any stress on the splice. I know some of you guys are pretty handy on an electronics bench, how does this sound to you? Grant Erwin For butt splices, I use the outer copper tube from oil burner thermocouple sensor units. I has an ID of just over 14 Ga. I wouldn't worry too much about solder if you can get a decent crimp, and I prefer not to slit the tube as the crimp is much stronger if you don't. A couple layers of heat shrink will take care of insulation as long as you can support the cord to avoid flexing at the splice - I tie-wrapped a tongue depressor splint to Junior's lap top power supply to cure a kink in the output cord. Gerry :-)} London, Canada |
#10
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In article , Grant Erwin says...
I know some of you guys are pretty handy on an electronics bench, how does this sound to you? Don't suppose there's any chance you could put a photo in the drop box? I would not make any recommendations before seeing the situation. Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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jim rozen wrote:
In article , Grant Erwin says... I know some of you guys are pretty handy on an electronics bench, how does this sound to you? Don't suppose there's any chance you could put a photo in the drop box? I would not make any recommendations before seeing the situation. Jim Include some pictures of the brush housing. You _really_ want to do it the right way if there is any possibility of making it happen -- maybe we can help you get in there instead of doing the splice. -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com |
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On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 20:28:02 -0800, Grant Erwin
wrote: Next time it breaks it will be curtains, all right. The slit was so I could feed in solder. I'm not going to be able to count on this for any mechanical strength, and I want badly to save this motor. I like the idea of potting in epoxy but I'm not sure how to do that. GWE I agree with Spehro: no need for the slits. Solder will wick into a heated bushing. Re potting: just remember to put a piece of (unshrunk) shrink tube over the wires you're joining to the stubs. After making and insulating the joints, slide the shrinktube down over the joints and fill it with epoxy. Another effective if less-pretty approach is to use epoxy putty. |
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I figure I have little to lose by trying an external splice first. I talked
to a guy at Dumore and he says that the Carvits were really cool little machines and he personally collects them. He says it's quite difficult to remove the field structure and splice a new power cord inside the motor, but a pro motor shop could do it but watch out for your wallet. So I'm not going to go that way unless I have to. I'll try shooting the pictures tonight but I don't seem to be any good at closeup work, it always comes out fuzzy no matter what I do on this camera. Grant Tim Wescott wrote: jim rozen wrote: In article , Grant Erwin says... I know some of you guys are pretty handy on an electronics bench, how does this sound to you? Don't suppose there's any chance you could put a photo in the drop box? I would not make any recommendations before seeing the situation. Jim Include some pictures of the brush housing. You _really_ want to do it the right way if there is any possibility of making it happen -- maybe we can help you get in there instead of doing the splice. |
#14
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On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 12:03:54 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote: On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 20:28:02 -0800, Grant Erwin wrote: Grant, another suggestion: you'll want to be sure that the solder "wets" your stub. Old copper can be oxidized, and a short stub of stranded wire is hard to clean. See if you can get some activated-rosin (electronics grade) flux, and some silver-bearing rosin-core solder from Radio Shack. The solder is their stocknumber 64-013. It's only 2% silver, but it does seem to wet better than straight solder. I don't know if the Shack has flux or not. |
#15
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For reference, one happens to be for sale on ebay right now:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...photoho sting Click the motor pic for a close up. From Grant's OP: "I'm thinking of getting some skinny modelers brass tubing, slitting it lengthwise maybe 1/2" with a Dremel tool," Well, Dremels are just _great_ for removing rivet heads. Visualize as much as you can. Try to see where each rivet goes. You'll have to get them _all_ out for sucess, or else you have no motor at all. In the meantime, for $50 or so, you could get a spare on ebay. To really clean those copper stubs without corrosive flux, apply about 12 VDC to the other end, and use a conductive, non-corrosive electrolyte to remove the copper oxide. Electrocleaning! Now, can someone remind me of the polarity? Work positive, solution negative? Use the weakest electrolyte you can leaving a reasonable time for working, and they'll be clean and will accept solder readily. Enough to wick down into the wires for strain relief. There's no strain relief bushing that can be pressed together with Channelocks and removed, to pull through just a bit more wire? Probably not, these are plastic moldings.... Now posting with Google. AOL is dropping newsgroup service, and I need to work with Outlook Express a little more to get used to it. --Doug |
#16
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In the meantime, for $50 or so, you could get a spare on ebay. Except that motor's power cable is also badly frayed and will likely fail within a few hours just like mine was. It was a design weakness. To really clean those copper stubs without corrosive flux, apply about 12 VDC to the other end, and use a conductive, non-corrosive electrolyte to remove the copper oxide. Electrocleaning! Now, can someone remind me of the polarity? Work positive, solution negative? Use the weakest electrolyte you can leaving a reasonable time for working, and they'll be clean and will accept solder readily. Enough to wick down into the wires for strain relief. I don't think this will work. These wires are very very short. I'm only going to get one chance. There's no strain relief bushing that can be pressed together with Channelocks and removed, to pull through just a bit more wire? Probably not, these are plastic moldings.... I got the extra wire I'm working with now by removing the (largely disintegrated) strain relief. Today I got some 3/32" brass tubing. I'm going to cut off short pieces and anneal them (just to be sure) and then lightly crimp them over the stubs and the new wires and then flow solder. I know such a joint will be brittle but I'm going to beef up the outside of the wire assembly as best I can and have only a short loop before a hard tie-down, so there should never be any stress on the joint. Before I do this I'll try to shoot digital pix like I said, they'll be posted later tonight. Grant |
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OK, you guys are awesome. I went back into the little Dumore motor and
lo and behold the brush leads I'd thought were riveted on were in fact held on by trick little clips. I popped them off with a dental tool, took the nut off the switch and pushed it in, and the whole stator/field assembly slid out into my hand. Boy is this motor built nice. Anyone ever opened up an old piece of Tektronix test equipment? Those were built like jewelry, real pride and super craftsmanship. This little Dumore is built like that. You can see where the armature was balanced, and even the old (1940s) friction tape was cut so it wound a perfect T, like hospital corners on a bed. Now it'll be easy to fix and super-clean. Time to start worrying about where to find ball-end router bits with 3/16" shanks. Anyone have a clue? The only ones I can find are either 1/4" or 1/8" shanks. Grant |
#18
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I like old power tools, and like to put them to use, and don't concern
myself with retaining their collectable original condition. The main upgrade that I regularly do is install a new 3-wire power cord so there is a safety ground. In my experience, everything comes apart, and most often without doing any damage.. it's just a matter of using the correct approach and tools. Dremels can be great for numerous multi-function cutters and small drills. A quality pair of flush-cutting diagonal cutters can nip off the end of a rivet, and raise those pesky pushed-in pins with the rivet heads. In most cases with old stuff, I'd approach something like this wiring problem as a perfect opportunity to disassemble the motor, clean and inspect it (particularly in a vented case where something could've entered unnoticed), and determine if any other modifications might be required.. removing housing material for a new power cord strain relief, or access to oil the bearings maybe. As someone mentioned, old stranded copper wire is almost always badly oxidized and doesn't tin well. If you can only access the short stubs, you might be able to gently scrape or brush the individual strands to get the dark oxide off. A small splicing band can be obtained by cutting the crimp section from a plated copper ring/spade terminal, or a short section of a butt splice. If you get a crimp on clean copper-to-clean copper, soldering won't be of much benefit, and can even be more problematic in a situation where vibration (or flexing) could be present. The plated brass contact bars in barrier terminal strips are removable with the screws removed, and would make a secure splice if a crimper won't fit in that location, although they would require more free space for shrink tubing or other insulation. WB ................... "Grant Erwin" wrote in message ... The little Dumore Carvit I was so happy to find recently had severe fraying of the cord right where it went into the motor housing. Today I spun it up and yup, it went *pop*! I cut off the wires and tore the motor apart. Hmm. Doesn't look like I can get back in there at all. Wire now only sticking out ¼". I very carefully working with magnifiers stripped off about 1/8", now I have 2 ultra-short stubs of stranded copper, maybe 14 or 16 gauge, to which I have to solder a new power cord. It's a universally wound motor with brushes and the brush housings don't look removable from the stator shell and the stator itself is riveted to the brush housings, so it really doesn't look like I'm going to get inside there to do a decent splice. I'm thinking of getting some skinny modelers brass tubing, slitting it lengthwise maybe 1/2" with a Dremel tool, then cutting off a couple of 1/4" thin brass crimp tubes and first making a mechanical connection by crimping, then soldering into the slit, then sliding on heat shrink and insulating each crimp, then sliding on another layer of heat shrink, then building up a layer of electrical tape, the good stuff so it tapers up and eventually catches the teeny 1/8" of old insulation left, then finally sliding on a bigger piece of heat shrink to make it look as clean as possible, then looping the wire to a tie point on the body of the machine so there should never be any stress on the splice. I know some of you guys are pretty handy on an electronics bench, how does this sound to you? Grant Erwin ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
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