I come to the Font of Wisdom with an observation and a question.

I am boiling down "lye water" filtered through wood ashes in a
stainless steel pot. (MWC). Potassium Hydroxide in solution with water
of 1.2 S.G. is what I seek.

No problem, I have done it many times before. Soap making is the
ultimate goal. (historical re-enactment)

My question is: Why does the pot on the stove bang, and want to
make louder bangs as it comes to a boil? I have to simmer the pot to
boil to avoid what seems ...kaboom


My guess is S.G. Specific Gravity...but sal****er heavy does not bang
like this.


~Dave

Red Top Blacksmith

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:35:26 -0500, Dave wrote:



I come to the Font of Wisdom with an observation and a question.

I am boiling down "lye water" filtered through wood ashes in a
stainless steel pot. (MWC). Potassium Hydroxide in solution with water
of 1.2 S.G. is what I seek.

No problem, I have done it many times before. Soap making is the
ultimate goal. (historical re-enactment)

My question is: Why does the pot on the stove bang, and want to
make louder bangs as it comes to a boil? I have to simmer the pot to
boil to avoid what seems ...kaboom

The "bangs" are steam bubbles forming and collapsing on the bottom of the
pot. Given enough heat input to a pot of cold liguid you can see this
effect, regardless of what solution. Reducing the heating rate brings the
entire volume of liquid up to the boiling point and stops the collapse of
the steam bubbles.


--
The instructions said to use Windows 98 or better, so I installed RedHat.

I am boiling down "lye water" filtered through wood ashes in a
stainless steel pot. (MWC). Potassium Hydroxide in solution with
water
of 1.2 S.G. is what I seek.

No problem, I have done it many times before. Soap making is the
ultimate goal. (historical re-enactment)

My question is: Why does the pot on the stove bang, and want to
make louder bangs as it comes to a boil? I have to simmer the pot to
boil to avoid what seems ...kaboom


My guess is S.G. Specific Gravity...but sal****er heavy does not
bang
like this.

Yes, S.G. should be specific gravity. As for the banging, I think you
need some nucleation sites to get a nice smooth boil, with lots of small
bubbles forming in lots of places, instead of one giant bubble every so
often like you get now. Try adding a few small sharp pieces of gravel,
say 1/4" diameter. The sharp edges and pockets give nice surfaces for
bubbles to form at, which is why chemists call these "boiling stones"
:-). Broken unglazed ceramic chips or granite would probably be best.
Avoid marble in your lye solution as it will get eaten.

--
Regards,
Carl Ijames carl.ijames at verizon.net

"Carl Ijames" wrote in message
news:_kBJd.19098$IP6.4450@trnddc05...
I am boiling down "lye water" filtered through wood ashes in a
stainless steel pot. (MWC). Potassium Hydroxide in solution with
water
of 1.2 S.G. is what I seek.

No problem, I have done it many times before. Soap making is the
ultimate goal. (historical re-enactment)

My question is: Why does the pot on the stove bang, and want to
make louder bangs as it comes to a boil? I have to simmer the pot to
boil to avoid what seems ...kaboom


My guess is S.G. Specific Gravity...but sal****er heavy does not
bang
like this.

Yes, S.G. should be specific gravity. As for the banging, I think you
need some nucleation sites to get a nice smooth boil, with lots of small
bubbles forming in lots of places, instead of one giant bubble every so
often like you get now. Try adding a few small sharp pieces of gravel,
say 1/4" diameter. The sharp edges and pockets give nice surfaces for
bubbles to form at, which is why chemists call these "boiling stones"
:-). Broken unglazed ceramic chips or granite would probably be best.
Avoid marble in your lye solution as it will get eaten.

Sorry to quibble, but marble (and limestone) will not be eaten by lye; lye
is alkaline, so is sodium carbonate in all its forms; it will, however,
dissolve in an acid solution.
Martin

--
martindot herewhybrowat herentlworlddot herecom

--
Regards,
Carl Ijames carl.ijames at verizon.net

I'll try the "sharply edged objects" in the pot. Makes sense. I was
mostly curious about why the boiling was banging so much with a wood ash
lye solution.
I assumed as far as that it was steam bubbles forming, and collapsing
under the water...but...why? Dense salt water, or dense sugar water
does not bang like this, upon bringing to a boil.

humble, in the face of new,

~Dave

I faintly remember from my chemistry days that alkalai solutions are
more prone to "bumping" than neutral or acidic solutions, but I don't
remember why...:-(

However, I speculate that it might have to do with the fact that hot
alkalai is a very effective cleaner and degreaser; this might tend to
remove nucleation centers which facilitate boiling (like dirt and
grease) from the pot walls and bottom , and thereby make the formation
of sudden, violent steam bubbles more likely.

Again, this is pure speculation, just sitting here thinking about it.
Regards,

Bob

Avoid marble in your lye solution as it will get eaten.

Sorry to quibble, but marble (and limestone) will not be eaten by lye;
lye
is alkaline, so is sodium carbonate in all its forms; it will,
however,
dissolve in an acid solution.

Eaten was a bit of an overstatement; nibbled at would be more correct.
Depending upon its source marble ranges from 30-60% calcium carbonate
and similar levels of magnesium carbonate which as you say will be
basically unaffected. However, marble can also contain up to 10% SiO2
which is etched and dissolved by hot concentrated alkali causing the
marble chips to slowly crumble, and up to a few percent Fe (and other
metals depending on the coloration) in various oxidation states which
will leach out and oxidize to rusty water - none of which I assumed that
the original poster would want in his homemade lye.

--
Regards,
Carl Ijames carl.ijames at verizon.net

"Bob" wrote in message
ups.com...
I faintly remember from my chemistry days that alkalai solutions are
more prone to "bumping" than neutral or acidic solutions, but I don't
remember why...:-(

However, I speculate that it might have to do with the fact that hot
alkalai is a very effective cleaner and degreaser; this might tend to
remove nucleation centers which facilitate boiling (like dirt and
grease) from the pot walls and bottom , and thereby make the formation
of sudden, violent steam bubbles more likely.

Again, this is pure speculation, just sitting here thinking about it.
Regards,

Bob

Water does interesting things. Example. You live in the mountains at 2000
meters (6000 feet)
You put a cup of tap water in the microwave for a minute. Near boiling.
Put the cup on the counter top and add 1 spoonful of instant coffee.
You now have a "coffee geyser"
QED

"Dave" wrote in message
...


I come to the Font of Wisdom with an observation and a question.

I am boiling down "lye water" filtered through wood ashes in a
stainless steel pot. (MWC). Potassium Hydroxide in solution with water
of 1.2 S.G. is what I seek.

No problem, I have done it many times before. Soap making is the
ultimate goal. (historical re-enactment)

My question is: Why does the pot on the stove bang, and want to
make louder bangs as it comes to a boil? I have to simmer the pot to
boil to avoid what seems ...kaboom


My guess is S.G. Specific Gravity...but sal****er heavy does not bang
like this.

I don't know, but this may be of interest to you: I've noticed the same
thing when boiling commercial lye, which I do to strip steel parts of oil
and grease prior to blueing them.

Also, if you take a stainless steel pot and scrub it out hard with an
abrasive pad and detergent, and then boil water in it, you'll notice the
same phenomenon to a lesser degree.

I may be related to the pot being *really* clean, which may relate to
nucleation as others have suggested...or maybe not. g

--
Ed Huntress

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:17:26 -0500, Ed Huntress wrote:

I don't know, but this may be of interest to you: I've noticed the same
thing when boiling commercial lye, which I do to strip steel parts of oil
and grease prior to blueing them.

I hear the same noise when one of my water heaters (electric) comes on,
but not the other. I always assumed it was the steam bubbles collapsing
as they cooled, but I don't know why it only happens on the one.

I may be related to the pot being *really* clean, which may relate to
nucleation as others have suggested...or maybe not. g

I think it's related to heat, somehow

Alcohol boils this way too. Instead of small bubbles you get big
ones. And not as often. So it can surprise you when it boils out of
the erlenmeyer flask. And the whole bench catches on fire. And the kid
doing the boiling just screams and runs. And you have to put it out
because the kid who boiled the alcohol is trying to put her hair out.
And you get to do that too.
ERS

the erlenmeyer flask. And the whole bench catches on fire. And the kid
doing the boiling just screams and runs. And you have to put it out
because the kid who boiled the alcohol is trying to put her hair out.
And you get to do that too.

Damn, Where can I get a fun job like this?
chuck

On 26 Jan 2005 18:50:23 GMT, (Charles A.
Sherwood) wrote:

the erlenmeyer flask. And the whole bench catches on fire. And the kid
doing the boiling just screams and runs. And you have to put it out
because the kid who boiled the alcohol is trying to put her hair out.
And you get to do that too.

Damn, Where can I get a fun job like this?
chuck
Eighth grade physics class.
ERS

"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
"bw" wrote in message
...
Water does interesting things. Example. You live in the mountains at
2000
meters (6000 feet)
You put a cup of tap water in the microwave for a minute. Near boiling.
Put the cup on the counter top and add 1 spoonful of instant coffee.
You now have a "coffee geyser"

Can do it at sea level too. Just need distilled water (no impurities) and a
clean cup (no impurities). You can superheat it because there are no
impurities for bubbles to nucleate on. But drop anything in it, and...

Tim

Wha-a-a? That must mean our tap water (Sydney) is distilled - and *my* cup is
clean? Ha!

Yes, this unhappy phenomenon is easy to reproduce - and hurts like Hell!

(Once bitten..)

--
Jeff R.

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:10:56 -0600, the renowned "Tim Williams"
wrote:

"Jeff R." wrote in message
u...
Wha-a-a? That must mean our tap water (Sydney) is distilled - and
*my* cup is clean? Ha!

May well be. I can't say I've ever had our tap water do anything but boil
when it reaches approx. 100°C (I think it's exactly 98C or so at this
altitude of 800 feet).

Tim

If you don't think, but rather measure it as it boils (with a
reasonably accurate thermometer), you may be surprised.



Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
"Jeff R." wrote in message
...
Wha-a-a? That must mean our tap water (Sydney) is distilled - and
*my* cup is clean? Ha!

May well be. I can't say I've ever had our tap water do anything but boil
when it reaches approx. 100°C (I think it's exactly 98C or so at this
altitude of 800 feet).

Tim


It is a fine line between boiling over in the microwave and coming out
superheated, ready to explode. I certainly have experienced the latter, with
tap water, but don't any more 'cause I always use the kettle now.

Don't like exploding cups.

--
Jeff r.

Me to. I'm in Honolulu and we have hard water. It used to happen in a
microwave with no turntable now I'm wondering if the turntable would shake
it enough to prevent superheating.
I also supercool water in my freezer about once a week. It's cool watching
the crystals spread in the water.
Karl


"Jeff R." wrote in message
...

"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
"bw" wrote in message
...
Water does interesting things. Example. You live in the mountains at
2000
meters (6000 feet)
You put a cup of tap water in the microwave for a minute. Near
boiling.
Put the cup on the counter top and add 1 spoonful of instant coffee.
You now have a "coffee geyser"

Can do it at sea level too. Just need distilled water (no impurities)
and a
clean cup (no impurities). You can superheat it because there are no
impurities for bubbles to nucleate on. But drop anything in it, and...

Tim

Wha-a-a? That must mean our tap water (Sydney) is distilled - and *my*
cup is
clean? Ha!

Yes, this unhappy phenomenon is easy to reproduce - and hurts like Hell!

(Once bitten..)

--
Jeff R.

"Karl Vorwerk" wrote in message
...
Me to. I'm in Honolulu and we have hard water. It used to happen in a
microwave with no turntable now I'm wondering if the turntable would shake
it enough to prevent superheating.
I also supercool water in my freezer about once a week. It's cool watching
the crystals spread in the water.
Karl

Hey! That's my favourite party trick - done with apple cider.
Takes about three hours in the freezer, then about 10 seconds to freeze solid
when opened.

Any more than three hours and it freezes in the bottle.

J.R.



"Jeff R." wrote in message
...

"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
"bw" wrote in message
...
Water does interesting things. Example. You live in the mountains at
2000
meters (6000 feet)
You put a cup of tap water in the microwave for a minute. Near
boiling.
Put the cup on the counter top and add 1 spoonful of instant coffee.
You now have a "coffee geyser"

Can do it at sea level too. Just need distilled water (no impurities)
and a
clean cup (no impurities). You can superheat it because there are no
impurities for bubbles to nucleate on. But drop anything in it, and...

Tim

Wha-a-a? That must mean our tap water (Sydney) is distilled - and *my*
cup is
clean? Ha!

Yes, this unhappy phenomenon is easy to reproduce - and hurts like Hell!

(Once bitten..)

--
Jeff R.

doing the boiling just screams and runs. And you have to put it out
because the kid who boiled the alcohol is trying to put her hair out.
And you get to do that too.

Damn, Where can I get a fun job like this?

Eighth grade physics class.

Gee, I didn't get to take physics in eight grade.
They made me take "Earth Science" Or maybe that was in 7th grade.
I do know that Physics had to wait until HS.

Thanks all for the input. After reading a few replies, in my mind's
eye, I visualized a sheet of steam forming and breaking, almost
instantaneously, on the bottom of the pot.

I drained a bottle of beer, broke the bottle, and placed the bottom
in the pot.

That works. I can hear the bottle bottom rattling as the lye boils.

Nucleation. What would we do without it?

~D

Nucleation. What would we do without it?

Drown under the single giant raindrop that a storm would produce? :-)
:-)

Examine your glass bits after you finish boiling down your lye - I bet
you will see the surface starting to haze as the lye slowly dissolves
the glass.

--
Regards,
Carl Ijames carl.ijames at verizon.net

Dave wrote:

Nucleation. What would we do without it?

~D

Note: For members of the White House staff, the word is "new-cue-lation"

Joe

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:56:04 -0500, the inscrutable Joe
spake:



Dave wrote:

Nucleation. What would we do without it?

~D

Note: For members of the White House staff, the word is "new-cue-lation"

Nuke ya later^H^Hion.


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