Help With Steam Explanation
 

I've been lurking here for years, but I seldom post. Learned a lot though.
Apparently not enough.

Now I've come before the font of collective wisdom, hat in hand.



I made an offhand remark to SWMBO that I'd like to build a fire piston.

"And that would be...?"
"Method of starting fires. Works on compression, sorta like a Diesel."

Blank Stare.

Well, me bein' typically full of refined oats, I proceeds to expound upon
the principle. Yep. Uh-huh. So I sez...

"Ya know about the gas laws, right? Ya know, Bernoulli, Boyle, and prob'ly
a couple other dead guys? 'Member the part 'bout compressin' gasses gettin'
hot and expandin' gasses gettin cold? Like that."

So she sez,
"I have a question."

Now, I figger that I can field any technical question posed by a mere female
without blinkin'.

"Shoot."
"Water."
"Huh?"
"Water."

Blank Stare.

So she sez,
"Water exists as a liquid and a gas, right?"
"Yeeesss...Kind of. I think. Not sure that steam is a *gas* exactly,
but..."
"Well, water is steam in a compressed state, right? And you heat water to
make it expand into steam, right? And when steam cools, it condenses back
into water. So wouldn't that violate the gas laws?"

Great Big Googly Eyed Blank Stare.

"Uh, well technically, no, but ah, state change uses energy, and
thermodynamics and stuff like that there, and uh, yes, violations, no
uhhh, kinda, sorta......ahem. Umm."

Blast. And damn if she ain't hidin' a grin up her sleeve.

Any you fellas what has had the benefit of a real education want to chime in
with the answer?
Heck, I'm not 100% sure I even know what the question is!

I have a sort of vauge idea, but I can't find words to express it.

And she's still hidin' that grin.

TIA

Kenneth James

gas laws apply to gasses, not liquids. when a substance changes state, you
ca't continue to apply the gas laws to them - a liquid is not just a
compressed gas, it's a different kind of matter. Water is a liquid. if you
heat it, the water absorbs heat and eventually turns to steam (heat of
evaporation) - if you extract heat, it turns back to water (condensation),
and if you extract even more heat, it becomes ice. so, in a way your wife
is right - it does violate the gas laws because the state change makes the
substance no longer a gas.

here are some links
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...rmo/phase.html
http://www.thirteen.org/hawking/myst...gleiser-3.html
http://www.lbl.gov/abc/wallchart/tea...pdf/Chap09.pdf
http://www.chemistry.wustl.edu/~edud...em/Fridge.html
http://rabi.phys.virginia.edu/HTW/water_steam_ice.html

"K. James" dood@nowhere wrote in message
news:famGd.8959$OF5.451@attbi_s52...
I've been lurking here for years, but I seldom post. Learned a lot
though.
Apparently not enough.

Now I've come before the font of collective wisdom, hat in hand.



I made an offhand remark to SWMBO that I'd like to build a fire piston.

"And that would be...?"
"Method of starting fires. Works on compression, sorta like a Diesel."

Blank Stare.

Well, me bein' typically full of refined oats, I proceeds to expound upon
the principle. Yep. Uh-huh. So I sez...

"Ya know about the gas laws, right? Ya know, Bernoulli, Boyle, and
prob'ly
a couple other dead guys? 'Member the part 'bout compressin' gasses
gettin'
hot and expandin' gasses gettin cold? Like that."

So she sez,
"I have a question."

Now, I figger that I can field any technical question posed by a mere
female
without blinkin'.

"Shoot."
"Water."
"Huh?"
"Water."

Blank Stare.

So she sez,
"Water exists as a liquid and a gas, right?"
"Yeeesss...Kind of. I think. Not sure that steam is a *gas* exactly,
but..."
"Well, water is steam in a compressed state, right? And you heat water to
make it expand into steam, right? And when steam cools, it condenses back
into water. So wouldn't that violate the gas laws?"

Great Big Googly Eyed Blank Stare.

"Uh, well technically, no, but ah, state change uses energy, and
thermodynamics and stuff like that there, and uh, yes, violations, no
uhhh, kinda, sorta......ahem. Umm."

Blast. And damn if she ain't hidin' a grin up her sleeve.

Any you fellas what has had the benefit of a real education want to chime
in
with the answer?
Heck, I'm not 100% sure I even know what the question is!

I have a sort of vauge idea, but I can't find words to express it.

And she's still hidin' that grin.

TIA

Kenneth James

Do a Google search on fire piston, you'll get lot of hits.

Rather than lecture SWMBO, make one to demonstrate.

I've known several "mere females" who'd understand the thermodynamics
well enough to design a better fire piston, and a couple who could
design and make a working model if they cared to bother.

Good tinder is one secret to success.

Have fun!


On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 04:35:23 GMT, "K. James" dood@nowhere wrote:

I've been lurking here for years, but I seldom post. Learned a lot though.
Apparently not enough.

Now I've come before the font of collective wisdom, hat in hand.



I made an offhand remark to SWMBO that I'd like to build a fire piston.

"And that would be...?"
"Method of starting fires. Works on compression, sorta like a Diesel."

Blank Stare.

Well, me bein' typically full of refined oats, I proceeds to expound upon
the principle. Yep. Uh-huh. So I sez...

"Ya know about the gas laws, right? Ya know, Bernoulli, Boyle, and prob'ly
a couple other dead guys? 'Member the part 'bout compressin' gasses gettin'
hot and expandin' gasses gettin cold? Like that."

So she sez,
"I have a question."

Now, I figger that I can field any technical question posed by a mere female
without blinkin'.

"Shoot."
"Water."
"Huh?"
"Water."

Blank Stare.

So she sez,
"Water exists as a liquid and a gas, right?"
"Yeeesss...Kind of. I think. Not sure that steam is a *gas* exactly,
but..."
"Well, water is steam in a compressed state, right? And you heat water to
make it expand into steam, right? And when steam cools, it condenses back
into water. So wouldn't that violate the gas laws?"

Great Big Googly Eyed Blank Stare.

"Uh, well technically, no, but ah, state change uses energy, and
thermodynamics and stuff like that there, and uh, yes, violations, no
uhhh, kinda, sorta......ahem. Umm."

Blast. And damn if she ain't hidin' a grin up her sleeve.

Any you fellas what has had the benefit of a real education want to chime in
with the answer?
Heck, I'm not 100% sure I even know what the question is!

I have a sort of vauge idea, but I can't find words to express it.

And she's still hidin' that grin.

TIA

Kenneth James

I use clothes dryer lint for tender. Works great. Use just a very small
amount.

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...

Do a Google search on fire piston, you'll get lot of hits.

Rather than lecture SWMBO, make one to demonstrate.

I've known several "mere females" who'd understand the thermodynamics
well enough to design a better fire piston, and a couple who could
design and make a working model if they cared to bother.

Good tinder is one secret to success.

Have fun!


On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 04:35:23 GMT, "K. James" dood@nowhere wrote:

I've been lurking here for years, but I seldom post. Learned a lot
though.
Apparently not enough.

Now I've come before the font of collective wisdom, hat in hand.



I made an offhand remark to SWMBO that I'd like to build a fire piston.

"And that would be...?"
"Method of starting fires. Works on compression, sorta like a Diesel."

Blank Stare.

Well, me bein' typically full of refined oats, I proceeds to expound upon
the principle. Yep. Uh-huh. So I sez...

"Ya know about the gas laws, right? Ya know, Bernoulli, Boyle, and
prob'ly
a couple other dead guys? 'Member the part 'bout compressin' gasses
gettin'
hot and expandin' gasses gettin cold? Like that."

So she sez,
"I have a question."

Now, I figger that I can field any technical question posed by a mere
female
without blinkin'.

"Shoot."
"Water."
"Huh?"
"Water."

Blank Stare.

So she sez,
"Water exists as a liquid and a gas, right?"
"Yeeesss...Kind of. I think. Not sure that steam is a *gas* exactly,
but..."
"Well, water is steam in a compressed state, right? And you heat water
to
make it expand into steam, right? And when steam cools, it condenses
back
into water. So wouldn't that violate the gas laws?"

Great Big Googly Eyed Blank Stare.

"Uh, well technically, no, but ah, state change uses energy, and
thermodynamics and stuff like that there, and uh, yes, violations, no
uhhh, kinda, sorta......ahem. Umm."

Blast. And damn if she ain't hidin' a grin up her sleeve.

Any you fellas what has had the benefit of a real education want to chime
in
with the answer?
Heck, I'm not 100% sure I even know what the question is!

I have a sort of vauge idea, but I can't find words to express it.

And she's still hidin' that grin.

TIA

Kenneth James

"Rich" wrote in
:

I use clothes dryer lint for tender. Works great. Use just a very
small amount.

I would add that it is imperative to not have any nylon, or synthetic lint
in the mix.
Further, I'm pretty sure that the 'tender" used is supposed to be charred
as in char cloth used in the flint-steel method of starting a fire.

Since we're on the subject. Does anyone here have pictures etc. of their
fire piston on the web?
Thanks
Karl


"K. James" dood@nowhere wrote in message
news:famGd.8959$OF5.451@attbi_s52...
I've been lurking here for years, but I seldom post. Learned a lot
though.
Apparently not enough.

Now I've come before the font of collective wisdom, hat in hand.



I made an offhand remark to SWMBO that I'd like to build a fire piston.

"And that would be...?"
"Method of starting fires. Works on compression, sorta like a Diesel."

Blank Stare.

Well, me bein' typically full of refined oats, I proceeds to expound upon
the principle. Yep. Uh-huh. So I sez...

"Ya know about the gas laws, right? Ya know, Bernoulli, Boyle, and
prob'ly
a couple other dead guys? 'Member the part 'bout compressin' gasses
gettin'
hot and expandin' gasses gettin cold? Like that."

So she sez,
"I have a question."

Now, I figger that I can field any technical question posed by a mere
female
without blinkin'.

"Shoot."
"Water."
"Huh?"
"Water."

Blank Stare.

So she sez,
"Water exists as a liquid and a gas, right?"
"Yeeesss...Kind of. I think. Not sure that steam is a *gas* exactly,
but..."
"Well, water is steam in a compressed state, right? And you heat water to
make it expand into steam, right? And when steam cools, it condenses back
into water. So wouldn't that violate the gas laws?"

Great Big Googly Eyed Blank Stare.

"Uh, well technically, no, but ah, state change uses energy, and
thermodynamics and stuff like that there, and uh, yes, violations, no
uhhh, kinda, sorta......ahem. Umm."

Blast. And damn if she ain't hidin' a grin up her sleeve.

Any you fellas what has had the benefit of a real education want to chime
in
with the answer?
Heck, I'm not 100% sure I even know what the question is!

I have a sort of vauge idea, but I can't find words to express it.

And she's still hidin' that grin.

TIA

Kenneth James

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 04:35:23 GMT, "K. James" dood@nowhere vaguely
proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email


"Water exists as a liquid and a gas, right?"
"Yeeesss...Kind of. I think. Not sure that steam is a *gas* exactly,
but..."
"Well, water is steam in a compressed state, right? And you heat water to
make it expand into steam, right? And when steam cools, it condenses back
into water. So wouldn't that violate the gas laws?"

"Uh, well technically, no, but ah, state change uses energy, and
thermodynamics and stuff like that there, and uh, yes, violations, no
uhhh, kinda, sorta......ahem. Umm."

You have the answer there. Water is not "steam in a compressed state",
really. Change of state does require energy. Steam is gas. Actually
the steam you can _see_ is condensing already to form water vapour,
IIRC.

Gases occur when the molecules get enough energy to break apart from
their liquid state and move about independently.

So if you add heat to water fast enough it changes to steam (gas)
which takes energy. Leave it to give up heat, and it changes back to
water and it gives out energy. Solids and liquids are not quite as
dramatic as liquids to gases.

Water _would_ be steam in a compressed state, under enormous pressure,
at constant temperature above 212 F. This takes _inout_ of energy, to
do the compressing.

In article famGd.8959$OF5.451@attbi_s52, K. James says...


Any you fellas what has had the benefit of a real education want to chime in
with the answer?

Sure, I can do that.

1) you can't ever win an argument like this with your wife.

2) even if you *do* manage to win, you still loose.

3) tell her she's right, and take her out to dinner as a prize.

Now that that's out of the way, the real answer is that
the universal gas law is really called the "ideal" universal
gas law.

"Ideal" modifying 'gas' in this case.

The law only works for "ideal gasses" which are gasses that
are made up of atoms that DO NOT INTERACT WITH EACH OTHER.

Basically an ideal gas is a collection of tiny particles that
obey a particular kinetic energy distribution, based on their
temperature.

The hotter the container is, the faster they zoom around inside,
and bump into the walls of the container.

The moment they do stuff like condense or stick together to
form a liquid, the law no longer works because they're either
not an 'ideal' gas, or they're no longer a gas, but rather
a liquid. Even if they start to interact a little bit, you
need to make a correction for the law.

PV=nkT is the math on this.

P is pressure - how much the gage reads on the container. (absolute)

V is volume of the box

n is the number of atoms of the gas you put inside the box

k is a proportionality constant, 'boltzman's constant' named for him

T is the temperature inside the box, again in absolute units (K)

All things being equal, if V goes down, then T goes up. As LONG as
it's an ideal *gas*.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Good explanation Jim!
Both the technical one and the bit of "real world" advise

Tom
"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article famGd.8959$OF5.451@attbi_s52, K. James says...


Any you fellas what has had the benefit of a real education want to chime
in
with the answer?

Sure, I can do that.

1) you can't ever win an argument like this with your wife.

2) even if you *do* manage to win, you still loose.

3) tell her she's right, and take her out to dinner as a prize.

Now that that's out of the way, the real answer is that
the universal gas law is really called the "ideal" universal
gas law.

"Ideal" modifying 'gas' in this case.

The law only works for "ideal gasses" which are gasses that
are made up of atoms that DO NOT INTERACT WITH EACH OTHER.

Basically an ideal gas is a collection of tiny particles that
obey a particular kinetic energy distribution, based on their
temperature.

The hotter the container is, the faster they zoom around inside,
and bump into the walls of the container.

The moment they do stuff like condense or stick together to
form a liquid, the law no longer works because they're either
not an 'ideal' gas, or they're no longer a gas, but rather
a liquid. Even if they start to interact a little bit, you
need to make a correction for the law.

PV=nkT is the math on this.

P is pressure - how much the gage reads on the container. (absolute)

V is volume of the box

n is the number of atoms of the gas you put inside the box

k is a proportionality constant, 'boltzman's constant' named for him

T is the temperature inside the box, again in absolute units (K)

All things being equal, if V goes down, then T goes up. As LONG as
it's an ideal *gas*.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 04:35:23 GMT, "K. James" dood@nowhere vaguely
proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Be nice to hear how our "help" was applied K.

In article famGd.8959$OF5.451@attbi_s52, K. James dood@nowhere
wrote:

I made an offhand remark to SWMBO that I'd like to build a fire piston.

And she's still hidin' that grin.

There are two theories to arguing with a woman. Neither one works.

But I'm interested in this fire piston thingy. First time I've heard of
it. I did my homework, however, and seem to have a good handle on the
concept.

I see that most fire pistons are made from wood, horn, bone or plastic.
I did not, in my travels on the web, see any made of metal. Is there a
reason for that?

-Frank

--
fwarner1-at-franksknives-dot-com
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com/

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:07:06 -0800, Frank J Warner
wrote:

I see that most fire pistons are made from wood, horn, bone or plastic.
I did not, in my travels on the web, see any made of metal. Is there a
reason for that?

I'm guessing it's because the metal would chill the air heated by
compression. If it were big enough and compressed fast enough it'd
probably work OK. Diesel engines are fire pistons!

Don Foreman wrote in
:

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:07:06 -0800, Frank J Warner
wrote:

I see that most fire pistons are made from wood, horn, bone or plastic.
I did not, in my travels on the web, see any made of metal. Is there a
reason for that?

I'm guessing it's because the metal would chill the air heated by
compression. If it were big enough and compressed fast enough it'd
probably work OK. Diesel engines are fire pistons!


In a way yes they are, but don't they need a battery to work, as in 'glow
plugs'?
A fire piston on the other hand uses compression alone to ignite the tender
which is for instance a bit of charred cotton cloth, or something of that
nature.
IMHO it is because these are examples of primitive fire making tools that
they aren't normally made out of metal, not that it wouldn't work.

granpaw

In article 42, notreallyme
says...

... Diesel engines are fire pistons!


In a way yes they are, but don't they need a battery to work, as in 'glow
plugs'?

Yes, but only for starting. Once running the glow plugs are
switched off, right?

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

notreallyme wrote in
. 97.142:

Diesel engines are fire pistons!

In a way yes they are, but don't they need a battery to work, as in
'glow plugs'?

Nope. Glow plugs are used as a starting aid in cold weather, but they
aren't a requirement for the engine to work.

Greetings and Salutations.

On 22 Jan 2005 08:03:28 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article 42, notreallyme
says...

... Diesel engines are fire pistons!


In a way yes they are, but don't they need a battery to work, as in 'glow
plugs'?

Yes, but only for starting. Once running the glow plugs are
switched off, right?

Jim


Actually...not really. A diesel engine ignites the fuel/air
mixture purely by compression. Now...most, if not all, of them have
glow plugs that are used to help the process get started when the
engine temperature is low enough that even the massive compression
of the diesel engine is not enough to get the air/fuel mixture up
above the ignition temperature. A glow plug, by the by, is really
nothing more than a small heating element that sticks into the
cylinder and heats up to red-hot for a few moments when the engine
is first started. This extra heat is enough to ensure that combustion
will start, and, once the engine runs for a few minutes, it will have
warmed up enough that the ignition is self-sustaining.
Typically, glow plugs are set to run for no more
than a minute or so (although their real usefulness ends after
the first ignition in the cylinder).
It is perfectly possible to start a diesel engine
without working glow plugs. As long as the block is warmed
a little bit, the engine will fire up. Most large diesel
engines come with a 1 kw heater element that screws into
the block (typically by the oil filter), and is plugged
into 110v to keep things heated up. I am reduced to this
myself, as my truck currently has some issues with the glow
plug circuitry, and, without the block heater, it just won't
fire off below about 35 degrees.
Regards
Dave Mundt

On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 06:48:44 GMT, (Dave Mundt)
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Yes, but only for starting. Once running the glow plugs are
switched off, right?

Actually...not really.

snip

A glow plug, by the by, is really
nothing more than a small heating element that sticks into the
cylinder and heats up to red-hot for a few moments when the engine
is first started. This extra heat is enough to ensure that combustion
will start, and, once the engine runs for a few minutes, it will have
warmed up enough that the ignition is self-sustaining.

snip

???