You guys, may remember, that a few weeks ago, I was looking for a good source
for B&S collets for my new dividing head.

Well, on 11-11-2004, I placed an order with Hardinge for two #7 Brown and Sharpe
collets, one for 3/8” and one for ½”.

When I placed the order, I mentioned to the lady taking the order, that the
collets were for a Taiwanese made, Vertex semi universal dividing head, size
number 0, and that the diameter of the spindle hole was 18mm. The lady told me,
that I did not need to worry about the fit, because all B&S collets were made to
the same standards. Although this did not seem right, I reasoned, that since I
was ordering from Hardinge, I probably did not have to worry about it, so I
placed the order.

After a long delay, after 6 weeks, (the collets did not ship when promised),
they finally arrived on December 24.

To make a long story short, the collets do not fit my tool. It’s not even
close. I cannot fully insert the collets into the tool, they are stopped by the
back end (the threaded part) of the collets. And even if I would be able to get
them into the tool further, I would never be able to get them into the tool far
enough for proper workholding, because the diameter at the mouth of the collets
is too large also.

I have spent close to $100,00 (I never received an invoice either) from what I
thought was the best possible source for collets in the USA, and after waiting 6
weeks (23 days were promised) I have a couple of collets, that do not fit my
dividing head.

So now, it's dealing with the "customer service" department at Hardinge.

And people wonder why we are going to China, to have machine tools and
everything else produced. I wonder how much longer before Hardinge folds too.
They deserve to, if they can't even get a simple little order like this straight.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

In article dX%zd.574471$wV.92948@attbi_s54, Abrasha says...

It is the same one, and ALL the specs in my manual are identical, except the
taper of the spindle, which says it is a #7 B&S taper.

Try a MT2 shank in the head. If hardinge screwed up and
fabricated the wrong dimensions on the collets, they *will*
take them back.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Enco product descriptions are incorrect fairly often. Vendors change specs,
and Enco carries a lotta products, it's bound to happen.

WB
...............

"Abrasha" wrote in message
news:dX%zd.574471$wV.92948@attbi_s54...
It is the same one, and ALL the specs in my manual are identical, except
the
taper of the spindle, which says it is a #7 B&S taper.

I bought it from Enco, and on their site, and catalogue it says the same
also.
See:

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?P...&PARTPG=INLMK3
and http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=261

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

Tim Wescott wrote:



I think I'd find the dimensions for the tapers in question and measure
them to make sure. Calipers plus whatever round crap you have lying
around plus cleverness should give good enough measurements to tell one
from t'other.

I am beginning to think, that there is a possibility, that I might in fact have
a dividing head with a Morse Taper #2 in the spindle, instead of the claimed B&S
taper. Which means that the Enco catalogue was wrong, and the manual for the
dividing head is wrong also.

From http://www.gizmology.net/tapers.htm I found:

Morse Tapers:

#2 minor diameter: 0.572"
major diameter: 0.700"

B&S Tapers:

#7 minor diameter: 0.600"
major diameter: 0.725

I measured the diameter of the spindle hole at the opening, and it is 18 mm (as
stated in the manual), which is 0.708", so I would think it is made for a #2
Morse taper and not for a B&S taper, at least based on this measurement. I
talked to Enco today, from where I bought the dividing head, and they were not
very helpful. They simple denied the possibility that they might have sent me a
dividing head with a Morse taper instead of a B&S taper. A B&S taper will never
properly fit that hole, no matter what Enco claims the taper in the hole is.

As it turns out, there is a somewhat serious mistake in their catalogue. Take a
look at this page again: http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=261

Take a look at the "Head Stock ID Taper" for Model #325-1470 (bottom left of the
page). It says "3MTB&S". Obviously, this is nonsense.

Strangely, exactly the same mistake appears in the MSC catalogue for the same
tool. Take a look at http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNPDFF?PMPAGE=1507 (lower
right of the page)

I do not know how to measure the minor diameter of the taper inside the spindle,
but I also have a center that fits into that spindle, and I would think, that it
should not be too difficult to determine what kind of a taper that center has.
Enco wants me to send the dividing head back to them. It might be easier to
send that center back, and have them measure that.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

Mike Henry wrote:

It sounds like you got the P/N 203-4000 head.

That is the one I have.

If so it might take MT-2
collets.

They fit fine from the looks of it on the outside, but I cannot tell how they
fit INSIDE the spindle. Or may I assume, that since they fit, the spindle taper
IS in fact a Morse Taper #2

AIR, you have a Clausing 8520, so you might try one of the MT-2
collets you probably got with the mill.

You are right. I did, see above.

Maybe Enco has a typo in their
catalog and/or manual.

It's beginning to look like it.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

jim rozen wrote:
In article dX%zd.574471$wV.92948@attbi_s54, Abrasha says...


It is the same one, and ALL the specs in my manual are identical, except the
taper of the spindle, which says it is a #7 B&S taper.


Try a MT2 shank in the head. If hardinge screwed up and
fabricated the wrong dimensions on the collets, they *will*
take them back.

Jim



It is beginning to look, that it was not Hardinge who screwed up, but possibly
Enco AND the manufacturer of the dividing head.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

Wild Bill wrote:
Enco product descriptions are incorrect fairly often. Vendors change specs,
and Enco carries a lotta products, it's bound to happen.

WB

I agree with you, and that would be fine. But Enco denied that possibility
today. The tech was adamant about the fact that it is a B&S taper in that
dividing head. I am beginning to be sure that it is not.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

Abrasha wrote:

Wild Bill wrote:

Enco product descriptions are incorrect fairly often. Vendors change
specs,
and Enco carries a lotta products, it's bound to happen.

WB


I agree with you, and that would be fine. But Enco denied that
possibility today. The tech was adamant about the fact that it is a B&S
taper in that dividing head. I am beginning to be sure that it is not.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

Please keep us informed of your progress. I'm
looking for an indexing head and I too puzzled
over the "3MTB&S" in the Enco catalog.

I haven't looked at the numbers - but the logic of using the diameters can
be confusing. Many tapers don't extend to the full extents or may extend
beyond. The distance between the two diameters would yield slope (of sorts).

I have a MT4 to MT2 adapter that is 1 1/2 (mind measure) and is not any where
close to the length of either tapers.

I've had MT2 tapers that were MT2, but longer than normal and not fit due
to length. Tail stock center screw keeping it from seating.

I suggest looking at a wood hobby web page - oddly they have what WE need
also. Taper cleaners - made out of plastic. They also have taper cutters -
but those are typically in metal catalogs.

I suggest you get a plastic taper and see how it fits. If it bottoms out,
then cut the end off a little - until it seats. Then sweeping in a circle
have it clean the taper. extract and look for an even oil streak or pickup...

Or use bluing on a taper that seats and see what is touched and what isn't.

Might need a plastic taper cleaner to get the blue out!

Martin

Abrasha wrote:

Tim Wescott wrote:



I think I'd find the dimensions for the tapers in question and measure
them to make sure. Calipers plus whatever round crap you have lying
around plus cleverness should give good enough measurements to tell
one from t'other.


I am beginning to think, that there is a possibility, that I might in
fact have a dividing head with a Morse Taper #2 in the spindle, instead
of the claimed B&S taper. Which means that the Enco catalogue was
wrong, and the manual for the dividing head is wrong also.

From http://www.gizmology.net/tapers.htm I found:

Morse Tapers:

#2 minor diameter: 0.572"
major diameter: 0.700"

B&S Tapers:

#7 minor diameter: 0.600"
major diameter: 0.725

I measured the diameter of the spindle hole at the opening, and it is 18
mm (as stated in the manual), which is 0.708", so I would think it is
made for a #2 Morse taper and not for a B&S taper, at least based on
this measurement. I talked to Enco today, from where I bought the
dividing head, and they were not very helpful. They simple denied the
possibility that they might have sent me a dividing head with a Morse
taper instead of a B&S taper. A B&S taper will never properly fit that
hole, no matter what Enco claims the taper in the hole is.

As it turns out, there is a somewhat serious mistake in their
catalogue. Take a look at this page again:
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=261

Take a look at the "Head Stock ID Taper" for Model #325-1470 (bottom
left of the page). It says "3MTB&S". Obviously, this is nonsense.

Strangely, exactly the same mistake appears in the MSC catalogue for the
same tool. Take a look at
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNPDFF?PMPAGE=1507 (lower right of the page)

I do not know how to measure the minor diameter of the taper inside the
spindle, but I also have a center that fits into that spindle, and I
would think, that it should not be too difficult to determine what kind
of a taper that center has. Enco wants me to send the dividing head back
to them. It might be easier to send that center back, and have them
measure that.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com


--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

"Abrasha" wrote in message
news:nAoAd.297210$HA.203912@attbi_s01...
Mike Henry wrote:

It sounds like you got the P/N 203-4000 head.

That is the one I have.

If so it might take MT-2 collets.

They fit fine from the looks of it on the outside, but I cannot tell how
they fit INSIDE the spindle. Or may I assume, that since they fit, the
spindle taper IS in fact a Morse Taper #2

AIR, you have a Clausing 8520, so you might try one of the MT-2 collets
you probably got with the mill.

You are right. I did, see above.

Maybe Enco has a typo in their catalog and/or manual.

It's beginning to look like it.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

It looks like you do have a MT2 spindle and that Enco tech support could use
some training in dealing with customers. Maybe a letter to the president of
the company would result in some sort of compensation for you and
improvement in customer support. A minor side benefit is that you can
probably get MT2 collets much cheaper than B&S collets, assuming that you
don't want to use your 8520 collets. Or need the same size collet in both
the mill and head for a milling job.

Mike

Mike

Take a look at the "Head Stock ID Taper" for Model #325-1470 (bottom
left of the page). It says "3MTB&S". Obviously, this is nonsense.

Strangely, exactly the same mistake appears in the MSC catalogue for
the same tool. Take a look at
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNPDFF?PMPAGE=1507 (lower right of the
page)

No suprise, they're the same company, probably made the web
pages from the same data except for stock-on-hand and price.
Try Penn Tool, Victornet, J&L, Wholesale Tool or one of the
others and see if you get a better answer (assuming any of
those carry the vertex)...

--Glenn Lyford