Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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  #1   Report Post  
Jason D.
 
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Default propane tank as air tank?

Looking to use propane tank either two 20lb or one 40lb tanks as air
tanks?

I'll get new empty tanks FYI if this is doable. I hear they're
supposed to hold up to 300 PSI test as part of requirement as propane
tanks?

Cheers,

Wizard
  #2   Report Post  
Jeff Wisnia
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Jason D. wrote:
Looking to use propane tank either two 20lb or one 40lb tanks as air
tanks?

I'll get new empty tanks FYI if this is doable. I hear they're
supposed to hold up to 300 PSI test as part of requirement as propane
tanks?

Cheers,

Wizard



The concensus of what I've heard is that while propane tanks will stand
the pressure, they are not as thick walled as tanks designed for air
service. Thus they will rust out much faster if the air in them isn't
thoroughly dry, something that's not to easy to achieve if you're
planning on using them for air compressor storage tanks.

Unless you stand them upside down it won't be easy to add a water drain
valve either.

I did use a 20 lb bottle for several years as an emergency "air pig" for
occassionally filling a flat tire. I installed a kit I purchased for
about $15 which replaced the propane tank valve with a new valve with a
pressure relief, a Schrader (tire valve) filler port, and a 2 foot hose
with a tire valve chuck on its end.

After reading comments to the contrary here and elsewhere I chucked it
and spent $29.95 on a genuine air pig.

HTH,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"
  #3   Report Post  
Jerry J. Wass
 
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I'd try for an odd-ball vehicular propane tank, much heavier wall--try
some propane
distributors , see what they have and/or will refer you to an
installation/conversion
shop. calls to auto salvage yards might turn up something 20-30 gals.
The little
20-40Lb tanks are too thin-walled--rust out quick--put water drain in
bottom!!

"Jason D." wrote:

Looking to use propane tank either two 20lb or one 40lb tanks as air
tanks?

I'll get new empty tanks FYI if this is doable. I hear they're
supposed to hold up to 300 PSI test as part of requirement as propane
tanks?

Cheers,

Wizard


  #4   Report Post  
Nick Hull
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
Jeff Wisnia wrote:

The concensus of what I've heard is that while propane tanks will stand
the pressure, they are not as thick walled as tanks designed for air
service. Thus they will rust out much faster if the air in them isn't
thoroughly dry, something that's not to easy to achieve if you're
planning on using them for air compressor storage tanks.

Unless you stand them upside down it won't be easy to add a water drain
valve either.

I did use a 20 lb bottle for several years as an emergency "air pig" for
occassionally filling a flat tire. I installed a kit I purchased for
about $15 which replaced the propane tank valve with a new valve with a
pressure relief, a Schrader (tire valve) filler port, and a 2 foot hose
with a tire valve chuck on its end.

After reading comments to the contrary here and elsewhere I chucked it
and spent $29.95 on a genuine air pig.


I use several 20# tanks as air pigs, no problem as the air is always
dry. If I used them on a compressor I would mount them upside down.
For an adapter I just bought a brass plug and drilled a hole and tapped
it 1/4" FNPT

For portable air pigs I like the discarded Helium tanks of the same size
but much lighter weight but the valve is not as good.

--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/
  #5   Report Post  
Bob Engelhardt
 
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I use a 40# as an air pig - 20# is too small. Got it free at a refill
station, as it was not OPD.

Got the mercaptan stink out with a little bleach, swished around and
dumped out. I left the propane valve on and used a connector from a gas
grill, with a quick-disconnect on it. I use a male-male adapter to
fill. Put wheels and a long handle on it when it got tiresome carrying
back & forth for refills.

They have a working pressure of 240 psi.

Bob



  #6   Report Post  
Ron Thompson
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Looking to use propane tank either two 20lb or one 40lb tanks as air
tanks?

I'll get new empty tanks FYI if this is doable. I hear they're
supposed to hold up to 300 PSI test as part of requirement as propane
tanks?

Cheers,

Wizard

If you are buying new, why not buy air tanks?


Ron Thompson
On the Beautiful Florida Space Coast, right beside the Kennedy Space Center, USA

http://www.plansandprojects.com

The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is
to fill the world with fools.
--Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)
  #7   Report Post  
Tim Killian
 
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Go to the archives for any big-city newspaper and look up some of the
spectacular air compressor tank explosions of the past. There is a
reason why air storage tanks are spec-ed and certified.

The only thing dumber than using an odd-ball tank is plumbing air with
PVC pipe.

Jason D. wrote:

Looking to use propane tank either two 20lb or one 40lb tanks as air
tanks?

I'll get new empty tanks FYI if this is doable. I hear they're
supposed to hold up to 300 PSI test as part of requirement as propane
tanks?

Cheers,

Wizard


  #8   Report Post  
Jeff Wisnia
 
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Default

Tim Killian wrote:

Go to the archives for any big-city newspaper and look up some of the
spectacular air compressor tank explosions of the past. There is a
reason why air storage tanks are spec-ed and certified.

The only thing dumber than using an odd-ball tank is plumbing air with
PVC pipe.


I should explain (at the risk of repeating myself) that my skepticism
about doing non-spec things involving compressed gasses, as expressed
earlier in this thread, stems from about 50 years ago. I lost a friend
in my scuba diving club when he carelessly used a cast iron 3/4" to 1/2"
pipe thread reducing bushing to fit a "diving valve" to a CO2 fire
extinguisher bottle. Lots of us used fire extinguisher bottles as diving
tanks back then.

The threads on that bushing sheared the first time he was filling the
tank and the valve blew out and hit him under his chin and continued
into his brain, killing him on the spot. The poor guy didn't understand
the shear strengths of different materials. He'd probably still be alive
if he'd used a steel bushing, or maybe even a brass one, but he should
have NEVER used cast iron.

I have the sand cast aluminum "license plate emblem" with our diving
club's logo on it, which came from his car, nailed to my garage wall. I
still think of him every time I look at it, even though I haven't had a
scuba tank on my back for at least 40 years now.

Just my .02,

Jeff
--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"


Jason D. wrote:

Looking to use propane tank either two 20lb or one 40lb tanks as air
tanks?

I'll get new empty tanks FYI if this is doable. I hear they're
supposed to hold up to 300 PSI test as part of requirement as propane
tanks?

Cheers,

Wizard





--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"
  #9   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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In article , Tim Killian says...

Go to the archives for any big-city newspaper and look up some of the
spectacular air compressor tank explosions of the past. There is a
reason why air storage tanks are spec-ed and certified.


Not all of them are. There are plenty of air compressor tanks and
tire inflator tanks sold that are *not* ASME certified.

I used a brand-new propane tank as part of my air storage farm,
since then I added a tire inflator tank. But I do know that I
have an ASME hard-seat blow-off valve on the tanks.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================
  #10   Report Post  
Bob Engelhardt
 
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Tim Killian wrote:

The only thing dumber than using an odd-ball tank ...


Propane tanks are not "odd ball". They *are* compressed gas tanks, with
DOT specs. Working pressure 240 psi, test pressure 480 psi, design
burst pressure 960 psi. Depending upon the ambient temperature, propane
in a tank is 110 - 130 psi, sort of. Single stage, home-use compressed
air is generally not more than 100 psi.

Bob


  #11   Report Post  
Wayne Cook
 
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Default

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 15:24:51 -0500, Bob Engelhardt
wrote:

Tim Killian wrote:

The only thing dumber than using an odd-ball tank ...


Propane tanks are not "odd ball". They *are* compressed gas tanks, with
DOT specs. Working pressure 240 psi, test pressure 480 psi, design
burst pressure 960 psi. Depending upon the ambient temperature, propane
in a tank is 110 - 130 psi, sort of. Single stage, home-use compressed
air is generally not more than 100 psi.


That's exactly my thoughts as well. On top of that I've cut into more
than one commercially built "air tank" and been surprised and
concerned on how thin they are. A fact that can be confirmed by just
weighing a similar sized air tank compared to a empty propane tank. My
commercially made and sold 10 gallon tire inflator tank doesn't weigh
as much as even my newest small propane tank (and older tanks are
often much heavier). On top of that my portable air tank doesn't have
any way of draining moisture either so why the concern about propane
tanks in this application. Now as a compressor tank something needs to
be done but as has been stated many times in the past mounting it
upside down with appropriate drain fittings attached will cure that
problem (though it might make for slightly wetter air coming out than
a normal tank).

Now one tank I will not use for a portable air tank is old freon
tanks. I used them back when I didn't know any better but after
cutting into one of them I'm almost scared to even carry them with
freon in them.
Wayne Cook
Shamrock, TX
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook
  #12   Report Post  
Jason D.
 
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On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 23:35:33 -0800, "Jerry J. Wass"
wrote:

I'd try for an odd-ball vehicular propane tank, much heavier wall--try
some propane
distributors , see what they have and/or will refer you to an
installation/conversion
shop. calls to auto salvage yards might turn up something 20-30 gals.
The little
20-40Lb tanks are too thin-walled--rust out quick--put water drain in
bottom!!


Too thin walled? If thin, they'd not be ASME certified? I thought
most air containers has them lined for rust protection?

Now, what about the true air tanks?

I have to replace that portable old horizontal tank, appox 10-12 gal
with feet attached or portable tank with wheels removed.

I do have Graingers place on same block where our shop is but their
price for a 11 gal portable tank with mount platform for compressor
and motor for about 240 canadian. I think this is bit highway
robbery. By the way this one is ASME certified.

How can I tell this pop-off valve is hard seat type? Graingers
catalog leaves much to be desired on info.

Keep them coming, your comments are great!

New proper commerical quality portable appox 10gal compressor is over
1,600 canadian. Not the 600 home depot quality, we use it 6 days a
week on all the time for ready air availablity. Our shop doesn't
have this kind of money but I'm making sure this air compressor is
done properly.

Yes I do have the air valve, air regulator, old shutoff switch that
was hacked together. I rather get a new switch with manual switch cut
off. Need to get pop-off valve!

Cheers,

Wizard
  #13   Report Post  
Gerald Miller
 
Posts: n/a
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On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 19:18:04 -0600, Wayne Cook
wrote:


That's exactly my thoughts as well. On top of that I've cut into more
than one commercially built "air tank" and been surprised and
concerned on how thin they are. A fact that can be confirmed by just
weighing a similar sized air tank compared to a empty propane tank. My
commercially made and sold 10 gallon tire inflator tank doesn't weigh
as much as even my newest small propane tank (and older tanks are
often much heavier). On top of that my portable air tank doesn't have
any way of draining moisture either so why the concern about propane
tanks in this application. Now as a compressor tank something needs to
be done but as has been stated many times in the past mounting it
upside down with appropriate drain fittings attached will cure that
problem (though it might make for slightly wetter air coming out than
a normal tank).

My 30# tank is mounted upside down with angle iron frames for base and
compressor. Plumbing is 3/4" nipple & tee with side inlet from another
tee, up is check valve, down is drain. Down on the first tee is
plugged with feed through outlet from the mid point of the tank space
to avoid any contaminants that may have settled in the bottom area.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada
  #14   Report Post  
GMasterman
 
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Default

I have a 25# propane tank that I use from time to time. Had several with the
old styly valves that could not be refilled so I just rigged up a POL fitting
with a cross, with a schrader valve, a pressure gauge and a hose QD fitting.
Works great. Heavier than the freon bottles I have used in the past. Why
convert? Just couldn't see the perfectly good propane tanks go to waste and it
was not worth the expense to change the valve out to the new style
  #16   Report Post  
izzi4
 
Posts: n/a
Default

any ideas as to where to find such a kit to convert now days? Sounds like
something that would work really well for me.


"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
...
Jason D. wrote:
Looking to use propane tank either two 20lb or one 40lb tanks as air
tanks?

I'll get new empty tanks FYI if this is doable. I hear they're
supposed to hold up to 300 PSI test as part of requirement as propane
tanks?

Cheers,

Wizard



The concensus of what I've heard is that while propane tanks will stand
the pressure, they are not as thick walled as tanks designed for air
service. Thus they will rust out much faster if the air in them isn't
thoroughly dry, something that's not to easy to achieve if you're planning
on using them for air compressor storage tanks.

Unless you stand them upside down it won't be easy to add a water drain
valve either.

I did use a 20 lb bottle for several years as an emergency "air pig" for
occassionally filling a flat tire. I installed a kit I purchased for about
$15 which replaced the propane tank valve with a new valve with a pressure
relief, a Schrader (tire valve) filler port, and a 2 foot hose with a tire
valve chuck on its end.

After reading comments to the contrary here and elsewhere I chucked it and
spent $29.95 on a genuine air pig.

HTH,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"



  #17   Report Post  
GMasterman
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Any valve that you replace the origional valve with will be a lesser valve.
Leave the valve in place, buy a mating POL fitting, hook it to a cross, add a
schrader valve on one side, a pressure gauge on the second side and your
discharge hose on the third and you have it made. Simple as it can be,
  #19   Report Post  
Sunworshipper
 
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Default

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 06:49:52 -0500, Bob Engelhardt
wrote:

I use a 40# as an air pig - 20# is too small. Got it free at a refill
station, as it was not OPD.

Got the mercaptan stink out with a little bleach, swished around and
dumped out. I left the propane valve on and used a connector from a gas
grill, with a quick-disconnect on it. I use a male-male adapter to
fill. Put wheels and a long handle on it when it got tiresome carrying
back & forth for refills.

They have a working pressure of 240 psi.

Bob


I have a really old one that I've been hanging onto to make one.
20# probably , sure could use one for the wife's car. 99lbs.psi
shouldn't be a danger. I would think even though I was and still
would be scared of pumping them up to190 like the A&P told me was safe
as a kid. I would have made a couple of trips to the planes than take
the full load of that air compressor. Then again he hated me ...
  #20   Report Post  
Jerry J. Wass
 
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HEY, THANKS for the bleach tip!! Haven't really started using this one yet,
Pumped & dumped a few times, but could hardly notice the difference.
the merc sure does linger.

Bob Engelhardt wrote:

I use a 40# as an air pig - 20# is too small. Got it free at a refill
station, as it was not OPD.

Got the mercaptan stink out with a little bleach, swished around and
dumped out. I left the propane valve on and used a connector from a gas
grill, with a quick-disconnect on it. I use a male-male adapter to
fill. Put wheels and a long handle on it when it got tiresome carrying
back & forth for refills.

They have a working pressure of 240 psi.

Bob




  #21   Report Post  
Backlash
 
Posts: n/a
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It sure does. I use 200ml to scent 8,000 gallons of butane. It's some strong
stuff, and can make you puke if you are downwind when I'm injecting it into
the system. It comes in 50ml glass bottles with wax seal and screw cap, with
dessicant, inside a sealed metal pop-top can, inside a plastic bag, inside a
dessicant filled larger plastic bag, inside a sealed cardboard box. You can
still smell it through all that....
Tomato juice will knock down the smell somewhat if it gets on anything you
don't want it on.


RJ

"Jerry J. Wass" wrote in message
...
HEY, THANKS for the bleach tip!! Haven't really started using this one

yet,
Pumped & dumped a few times, but could hardly notice the difference.
the merc sure does linger.

Bob Engelhardt wrote:

I use a 40# as an air pig - 20# is too small. Got it free at a refill
station, as it was not OPD.

Got the mercaptan stink out with a little bleach, swished around and
dumped out. I left the propane valve on and used a connector from a gas
grill, with a quick-disconnect on it. I use a male-male adapter to
fill. Put wheels and a long handle on it when it got tiresome carrying
back & forth for refills.

They have a working pressure of 240 psi.

Bob




  #22   Report Post  
Mike Patterson
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Since you work with mercaptin, I'd like to pick your brain a bit if
you don't mind.

I have this small project I'd like to try where I'd bubble propane
from a 20lb tank or natural gas from the house line from the bottom of
my goldfish pond so that it burns at the surface. Kind of a floating
flame effect.

One thing that concerns me is that the mercaptin might build up in the
water to toxic levels, either from the gas contacting the water
directly via the bubbles or else from the film of soot that forms on
the water surface (I've done some experimenting in a #10 tub already).

Would you know anything about this, or know where I could find out? I
looked up the MSDS on it, but I couldn't find out anything about
concentrations in water affecting fish.

Any comments or suggestions?

Thanks
Mike



On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 17:46:25 -0500, "Backlash"
wrote:

It sure does. I use 200ml to scent 8,000 gallons of butane. It's some strong
stuff, and can make you puke if you are downwind when I'm injecting it into
the system. It comes in 50ml glass bottles with wax seal and screw cap, with
dessicant, inside a sealed metal pop-top can, inside a plastic bag, inside a
dessicant filled larger plastic bag, inside a sealed cardboard box. You can
still smell it through all that....
Tomato juice will knock down the smell somewhat if it gets on anything you
don't want it on.


RJ

"Jerry J. Wass" wrote in message
...
HEY, THANKS for the bleach tip!! Haven't really started using this one

yet,
Pumped & dumped a few times, but could hardly notice the difference.
the merc sure does linger.

Bob Engelhardt wrote:

I use a 40# as an air pig - 20# is too small. Got it free at a refill
station, as it was not OPD.

Got the mercaptan stink out with a little bleach, swished around and
dumped out. I left the propane valve on and used a connector from a gas
grill, with a quick-disconnect on it. I use a male-male adapter to
fill. Put wheels and a long handle on it when it got tiresome carrying
back & forth for refills.

They have a working pressure of 240 psi.

Bob




Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.
"I always wanted to be somebody...I should have been more specific..." - Lily Tomlin
  #23   Report Post  
Bruce L. Bergman
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 17:14:53 -0500, Mike Patterson
wrote:

Since you work with mercaptin, I'd like to pick your brain a bit if
you don't mind.

I have this small project I'd like to try where I'd bubble propane
from a 20lb tank or natural gas from the house line from the bottom of
my goldfish pond so that it burns at the surface. Kind of a floating
flame effect.

One thing that concerns me is that the mercaptin might build up in the
water to toxic levels, either from the gas contacting the water
directly via the bubbles or else from the film of soot that forms on
the water surface (I've done some experimenting in a #10 tub already).

Would you know anything about this, or know where I could find out? I
looked up the MSDS on it, but I couldn't find out anything about
concentrations in water affecting fish.

Any comments or suggestions?


Call Disneyland. Seriously.

They bubble Natural Gas (with mercaptan as delivered) through the
water in the river (from pipes on the bottom) and light it on the
surface for the Fantasmic show twice a night.

And AFAIK the fish that are in the river (to eat the mosquito
larvae) are doing just fine, and it doesn't bother the Ducks, Coots,
Herons or Egrets either. Well, except for potentially barbecuing the
few new birds that do not know /not/ to be there when the show is
running yet...

They use a spark-lighter to ignite a 'pilot jet' from the bank out
over the water to the end of the gas-bubbler pipe. It takes quite a
bit of flame on the water to stay lit on it's own so they can turn off
the pilot light. And of course, there's somebody there watching while
the effect is running, with an E-stop button if things go wrong.

You would only want to use Natural Gas for this, it's lighter than
air so if the fire goes out it won't build up as easily. Propane can
easily make a puddle of unburned gas that stays over the water surface
and builds up, and when it finds an ignition source it can suddenly
get VERY exciting.

-- Bruce --
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.
  #24   Report Post  
Backlash
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Mike, it sounds like Bruce has provided more info than I had in this
particular case. I might have to start looking at my fish pond, though....

RJ

"Mike Patterson" wrote in message
...
Since you work with mercaptin, I'd like to pick your brain a bit if
you don't mind.

I have this small project I'd like to try where I'd bubble propane
from a 20lb tank or natural gas from the house line from the bottom of
my goldfish pond so that it burns at the surface. Kind of a floating
flame effect.

One thing that concerns me is that the mercaptin might build up in the
water to toxic levels, either from the gas contacting the water
directly via the bubbles or else from the film of soot that forms on
the water surface (I've done some experimenting in a #10 tub already).

Would you know anything about this, or know where I could find out? I
looked up the MSDS on it, but I couldn't find out anything about
concentrations in water affecting fish.

Any comments or suggestions?

Thanks
Mike



On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 17:46:25 -0500, "Backlash"
wrote:

It sure does. I use 200ml to scent 8,000 gallons of butane. It's some

strong
stuff, and can make you puke if you are downwind when I'm injecting it

into
the system. It comes in 50ml glass bottles with wax seal and screw cap,

with
dessicant, inside a sealed metal pop-top can, inside a plastic bag,

inside a
dessicant filled larger plastic bag, inside a sealed cardboard box. You

can
still smell it through all that....
Tomato juice will knock down the smell somewhat if it gets on anything

you
don't want it on.


RJ

"Jerry J. Wass" wrote in message
...
HEY, THANKS for the bleach tip!! Haven't really started using this one

yet,
Pumped & dumped a few times, but could hardly notice the difference.
the merc sure does linger.

Bob Engelhardt wrote:

I use a 40# as an air pig - 20# is too small. Got it free at a

refill
station, as it was not OPD.

Got the mercaptan stink out with a little bleach, swished around and
dumped out. I left the propane valve on and used a connector from a

gas
grill, with a quick-disconnect on it. I use a male-male adapter to
fill. Put wheels and a long handle on it when it got tiresome

carrying
back & forth for refills.

They have a working pressure of 240 psi.

Bob



Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.
"I always wanted to be somebody...I should have been more specific..." -

Lily Tomlin


  #25   Report Post  
Bob Engelhardt
 
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Default

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
.... Propane can
easily make a puddle of unburned gas that stays over the water surface
and builds up, and when it finds an ignition source it can suddenly
get VERY exciting.


YES! What a great idea! Much cool-er than the "...floating flame
effect" that Jerry was talking about. Depending upon the size of the
pond, you could have pipes at random locations, giving off fwoosh'es or
whoomp's of random intensities at random times. Could be a neat show.

It won't take much of a breeze to create problems, though. And the
ignition source might be a challenge.

Hey, Chipmaker could do this in his pond, integrated with his fountains.

Boy, that gets the teenage boy in me really excited.

Bob


  #26   Report Post  
Emmo
 
Posts: n/a
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I have been looking to do this as well, as a sculpture for next year's
Burning Man festival, actually.

The challenge is keeping it lit. What I have found is spa heater igniters.
They use a thermocouple to decide if the flame is out, and then
automatically spark to relight it. So my plan, (not yet tried), is to take
one small pipe off of the underwater feed and direct it to the thermocouple.
If it stays lit, it lights the rest of the gas, if it goes out, the igniter
lights it and the pool of gas on the water's surface as well.

Any thoughts? I am pretty committed to propane, I think, as it is easy to
get, transport, etc.


  #27   Report Post  
Mike Patterson
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 07:47:39 GMT, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 17:14:53 -0500, Mike Patterson
wrote:

Since you work with mercaptin, I'd like to pick your brain a bit if
you don't mind.

I have this small project I'd like to try where I'd bubble propane
from a 20lb tank or natural gas from the house line from the bottom of
my goldfish pond so that it burns at the surface. Kind of a floating
flame effect.

One thing that concerns me is that the mercaptin might build up in the
water to toxic levels, either from the gas contacting the water
directly via the bubbles or else from the film of soot that forms on
the water surface (I've done some experimenting in a #10 tub already).

Would you know anything about this, or know where I could find out? I
looked up the MSDS on it, but I couldn't find out anything about
concentrations in water affecting fish.

Any comments or suggestions?


Call Disneyland. Seriously.

They bubble Natural Gas (with mercaptan as delivered) through the
water in the river (from pipes on the bottom) and light it on the
surface for the Fantasmic show twice a night.

And AFAIK the fish that are in the river (to eat the mosquito
larvae) are doing just fine, and it doesn't bother the Ducks, Coots,
Herons or Egrets either. Well, except for potentially barbecuing the
few new birds that do not know /not/ to be there when the show is
running yet...

They use a spark-lighter to ignite a 'pilot jet' from the bank out
over the water to the end of the gas-bubbler pipe. It takes quite a
bit of flame on the water to stay lit on it's own so they can turn off
the pilot light. And of course, there's somebody there watching while
the effect is running, with an E-stop button if things go wrong.

You would only want to use Natural Gas for this, it's lighter than
air so if the fire goes out it won't build up as easily. Propane can
easily make a puddle of unburned gas that stays over the water surface
and builds up, and when it finds an ignition source it can suddenly
get VERY exciting.

-- Bruce --


Thanks for the input!

I've actually been looking at doing this for quite a while, reactions
in rec.ponds tended towards excited versions of "YOU'LL POKE YOUR EYE
OUT!!!".

I've experimented with propane, and as you say it tends to hover at
the surface of the water, and lighting off can be an adventure with a
flashover kind of effect. Lost some forearm hair that way.

It occurred to me that might kind of cool considering my pond is
roughly kidney-shaped about 20 feet long and 15' wide with stepped
rock sides. Let the gas build for a minute or two then hit the
igniter... WHOOSH! and after the fireball there's the bubbling flame.

Also heats the water pretty quickly, which might be a problem.

I didn't know natural gas was lighter, that might work better, not
leave the film of soot/crud on the surface like LP seems to do, also
maybe reducing heating because the flame front would tend to be above
the water rather than clinging to it.

Here are a few pics of my experimenting:
http://www.mindspring.com/~mikepatte...ges/pond/fire/

Backing up to the parent directory you can see some pictures of the
pond area this would go into.

Mike
Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.
"I always wanted to be somebody...I should have been more specific..." - Lily Tomlin
  #28   Report Post  
Mike Patterson
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 08:28:21 -0500, Bob Engelhardt
wrote:

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
... Propane can
easily make a puddle of unburned gas that stays over the water surface
and builds up, and when it finds an ignition source it can suddenly
get VERY exciting.


YES! What a great idea! Much cool-er than the "...floating flame
effect" that Jerry was talking about. Depending upon the size of the
pond, you could have pipes at random locations, giving off fwoosh'es or
whoomp's of random intensities at random times. Could be a neat show.

It won't take much of a breeze to create problems, though. And the
ignition source might be a challenge.

Hey, Chipmaker could do this in his pond, integrated with his fountains.

Boy, that gets the teenage boy in me really excited.

Bob


Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that wind -was- a problem during my
experiments.

As for ignition, I was planning to fasten a peizo sparker to the end
of a rod. I wouldn't leave the flame on all the time, only during
parties and whenever I was going to be hanging out in the area, so
thrmocouples and auto-lighting and such wouldn't be an issue.

pics of experiments:
http://www.mindspring.com/~mikepatte...ges/pond/fire/

go up to the parent directory to see pics of the pond area

Mike
Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.
"I always wanted to be somebody...I should have been more specific..." - Lily Tomlin
  #29   Report Post  
Larry Jaques
 
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On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:37:57 -0500, Mike Patterson
calmly ranted:

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that wind -was- a problem during my
experiments.

As for ignition, I was planning to fasten a peizo sparker to the end
of a rod. I wouldn't leave the flame on all the time, only during
parties and whenever I was going to be hanging out in the area, so
thrmocouples and auto-lighting and such wouldn't be an issue.

pics of experiments:
http://www.mindspring.com/~mikepatte...ges/pond/fire/


What's that I hear? "Hey, Y'all! WATCH THIS!"
http://www.mindspring.com/~mikepatte...e/DCP_0009.JPG
(4' flame, tanks 2' away in a wind, riiiiiiight.)


--------------------------------------------------------------------
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why haven't I been 'saved'? * Graphic Design - Humorous T-shirts

  #30   Report Post  
Mike Patterson
 
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On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 05:52:45 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:37:57 -0500, Mike Patterson
calmly ranted:

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that wind -was- a problem during my
experiments.

As for ignition, I was planning to fasten a peizo sparker to the end
of a rod. I wouldn't leave the flame on all the time, only during
parties and whenever I was going to be hanging out in the area, so
thrmocouples and auto-lighting and such wouldn't be an issue.

pics of experiments:
http://www.mindspring.com/~mikepatte...ges/pond/fire/


What's that I hear? "Hey, Y'all! WATCH THIS!"
http://www.mindspring.com/~mikepatte...e/DCP_0009.JPG
(4' flame, tanks 2' away in a wind, riiiiiiight.)


--------------------------------------------------------------------
I sent in my $5, so * http://www.diversify.com/stees.html
why haven't I been 'saved'? * Graphic Design - Humorous T-shirts


LOL!

Thanks for your concern, and the reasoned and constructive input!

I suppose that -if- there had been a massive gas leak that -happened-
to be pointed towards the flame, and -if- the wind happened to blow
the flame in -just- the right direction... oh, but that wind would
also blow the escaping gas away from the flame front. And there was no
leak. That was carefully checked before starting.

FWIW, the tank is a bit farther away than the perspective makes it
appear, and if the flame is 4' high then the tank is about 4' away and
vice versa, though I understand your desire for poetic license. It
just makes it sound a little better to exaggerate.

I don't see how this rig is substantially different from a gas grill
in which the burner is directly above the tank.

On my SunBeam 450 Grill Master grill there are 3 openings in the
bottom of the grill body beneath the burner, roughly 3"x5" in size,
that are 14 inches -directly above- the tank valve/regulator assembly.
I'm sure SunBeam would like your input... :-)


Mike
Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.
"I always wanted to be somebody...I should have been more specific..." - Lily Tomlin


  #31   Report Post  
Old Nick
 
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On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 05:52:45 -0800, Larry Jaques
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Metal content

All of the little grab handles that I have tried, like the one on the
BBQ, have the handles bent so that the lower handle has the shrp side
against your fingers when you try to lift that heavy, hot plate or
pan!

I actually do not see that what is happening there is _particluarly_
unsafe, compared to many BBQ situations..

What's that I hear? "Hey, Y'all! WATCH THIS!"
http://www.mindspring.com/~mikepatte...e/DCP_0009.JPG
(4' flame, tanks 2' away in a wind, riiiiiiight.)


--------------------------------------------------------------------
I sent in my $5, so * http://www.diversify.com/stees.html
why haven't I been 'saved'? * Graphic Design - Humorous T-shirts


  #32   Report Post  
Larry Jaques
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 15:32:59 -0500, Mike Patterson
calmly ranted:

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 05:52:45 -0800, Larry Jaques


What's that I hear? "Hey, Y'all! WATCH THIS!"
http://www.mindspring.com/~mikepatte...e/DCP_0009.JPG
(4' flame, tanks 2' away in a wind, riiiiiiight.)


LOL!

Thanks for your concern, and the reasoned and constructive input!


Jewelcome.


FWIW, the tank is a bit farther away than the perspective makes it
appear, and if the flame is 4' high then the tank is about 4' away and


OK, then it wasn't a Redneck Holiday pic after all. I apologize
for my humorous and poetic license.


vice versa, though I understand your desire for poetic license. It
just makes it sound a little better to exaggerate.


In that pic, it looked like the tank was less than a tank's height
away while the flame was 1.5-2 times the tank height. Due to
perspective, there was no intended exaggeration.


I don't see how this rig is substantially different from a gas grill
in which the burner is directly above the tank.


Gas grills have regulators and 2" tall flames within a properly
vented semi-enclosed area. If you don't see a difference, just
say "Yee Haw!"


On my SunBeam 450 Grill Master grill there are 3 openings in the
bottom of the grill body beneath the burner, roughly 3"x5" in size,
that are 14 inches -directly above- the tank valve/regulator assembly.
I'm sure SunBeam would like your input... :-)


They'd soil their drawers if they saw your pics.

But HEY, _I_ like living dangerously, too. I rewire the house with the
cables live, stand on the top of the ladder, climb on the roof without
a safety rope, fly in helicopters, shoot machine guns, drive fast on
curves, speed on the freeway, ride motorcycles, and all sorts of other
fun stuff. I just don't show people -pictures- of how I do some of my
more foolish antics. g

But since the perspective was screwy in the pic, it wasn't a foolish
antic after all. Carry on!


--------------------------------------------------------
Murphy was an Optimist
----------------------------
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